i could have sworn this topic has been beat to death before??

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
If one does know his lion well in his area...and nomadic coalition comes in...it might be best to shoot one of them early one if he is mature. These coalitions can be damaging to prides as well sometimes. By breaking up the coalition...It may save some cubs.

Bwanamich,
Give me you opinion on this statement.

Correct Lane. This is sound lion management for sport hunting. But I am, not forcing it on any one else

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

But now the "chance" is standing right in front of you. Its no longer a chance, its reality! I've paid $100,000.00 plus, for this chance. There he is, no females and cubs, I've got a lion license in my pocket, you're my PH, and he's a freakin monster, an nobody knows shit about him! Who am I shooting, him or you?????

Well Aaron here is my answer. If you have done a good job of "knowing" your concession and you have a handle on your pride males...If a mature outside male comes through...he is fair game.

If it is an outside coalition...and you have a pride holding male in your concession...might be a GOOD idea to take one and bust the coalition.

An exception might be the scenario where you have a 7-8 yo holding a pride then it might be a good idea to let the strong coalition remove him and then take him. Then leave the strong youg coalition to hold the pride and keep it strong.

Lane get's the point of it all

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
They'd only be considered major players IN THE AREA if they regularly spent time IN THE AREA.

If for example, they'd been holding a pride in ANOTHER area and then been kicked out to become nomadic and then wandered into the study area, then they'd obviously be strangers to the study team.

If they stayed IN THE AREA then the study team would have to establish if they were appropriate to take or not.....

If, If, If!!!! Lotta if's?? Steve, your just making my point for me. Is it POSSIBLE, hypothetically yes. Is it REALLY gonna happen, NO!!! To expensive, too time consuming, etc, etc, etc. Whatever the reason, it just ain't possible in real hunting Africa. Stop with the "we can put a man on the moon" stuff, and lets deal with what REALLY is likely and able to happen! Steve, reality buddy!! Time to deal with reality!! Millions of things are possible, its possible I might win the lottery too, but I don't sit around waiting for it. So lets STOP with the possibilities, and DEAL WITH REALITY. It ain't gonna happen!!!

Nomads, yes they certainly could be, ALL of them in fact! But, since they could be, then that means they are OFF limits forever, right??? As you will only shoot lions of 6 yrs of age or older, and NO WAY to know exactly how old they are if they are nomadic and never seen before, so as you mention, we can't take the chance. That will certainly make the clients happy!

Regardless of ALL the excuses you make for the lack of knowledge about these particular lions in the pics, the problem is still the same! 3-4 big male lions that NO ONE knows anything about, in a hunting area, with potential lion hunters, and trophies WELL worth taking. So who decides, how do they decide, when do they decide?? Now we watch them for weeks to see if you CAN TAKE ONE, as you suggest (THE TEAM)? Well, Bwana just said that they may never be seen again??? What then?? What if you have a LION hunter in the truck seat next to you, you see these big lions, you don't seem to know anything about them, except we can ALL see they are big, mature cats, with NO females present, and you may possibly never see them again. (BEST TIME TO KILL A BIG ANIMAL IS WHEN YOU SEE EM) The client is freaking out cause he's got lion on quota, is paying over $100,000.00 to be there hunting lion, your suppose to do your best to get him a lion, and your answer is gonna be what???? What a second, OUR TEAM needs to evaluate them for a few weeks to determine who they are, where they're from, etc??? Let me know how that works out for ya????? I'll be interested to read the tale in the HUNTING REPORT!!

And now you want me to believe the liberal/anti hunting BBC & Big Cat Diaries, are you kidding me???? Seen it many times. Ya, I believe everything I read in the paper too!!! Funny, watch these shows long enough, and you'll see them calling a particular lion, the very same lion, when clearly anyone who has a clue, can see he's NOT the same one!!! But they know most people don't have a clue, to them, one lion looks like the next.

Aaron,
Just want to clarify with you: are you insinuating that this is how TGT conducts itself on lion hunts?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
They'd only be considered major players IN THE AREA if they regularly spent time IN THE AREA.

If for example, they'd been holding a pride in ANOTHER area and then been kicked out to become nomadic and then wandered into the study area, then they'd obviously be strangers to the study team.

If they stayed IN THE AREA then the study team would have to establish if they were appropriate to take or not.....

If, If, If!!!! Lotta if's?? Steve, your just making my point for me. Is it POSSIBLE, hypothetically yes. Is it REALLY gonna happen, NO!!! To expensive, too time consuming, etc, etc, etc. Whatever the reason, it just ain't possible in real hunting Africa. Stop with the "we can put a man on the moon" stuff, and lets deal with what REALLY is likely and able to happen! Steve, reality buddy!! Time to deal with reality!! Millions of things are possible, its possible I might win the lottery too, but I don't sit around waiting for it. So lets STOP with the possibilities, and DEAL WITH REALITY. It ain't gonna happen!!!

Nomads, yes they certainly could be, ALL of them in fact! But, since they could be, then that means they are OFF limits forever, right??? As you will only shoot lions of 6 yrs of age or older, and NO WAY to know exactly how old they are if they are nomadic and never seen before, so as you mention, we can't take the chance. That will certainly make the clients happy!

Regardless of ALL the excuses you make for the lack of knowledge about these particular lions in the pics, the problem is still the same! 3-4 big male lions that NO ONE knows anything about, in a hunting area, with potential lion hunters, and trophies WELL worth taking. So who decides, how do they decide, when do they decide?? Now we watch them for weeks to see if you CAN TAKE ONE, as you suggest (THE TEAM)? Well, Bwana just said that they may never be seen again??? What then?? What if you have a LION hunter in the truck seat next to you, you see these big lions, you don't seem to know anything about them, except we can ALL see they are big, mature cats, with NO females present, and you may possibly never see them again. (BEST TIME TO KILL A BIG ANIMAL IS WHEN YOU SEE EM) The client is freaking out cause he's got lion on quota, is paying over $100,000.00 to be there hunting lion, your suppose to do your best to get him a lion, and your answer is gonna be what???? What a second, OUR TEAM needs to evaluate them for a few weeks to determine who they are, where they're from, etc??? Let me know how that works out for ya????? I'll be interested to read the tale in the HUNTING REPORT!!

And now you want me to believe the liberal/anti hunting BBC & Big Cat Diaries, are you kidding me???? Seen it many times. Ya, I believe everything I read in the paper too!!! Funny, watch these shows long enough, and you'll see them calling a particular lion, the very same lion, when clearly anyone who has a clue, can see he's NOT the same one!!! But they know most people don't have a clue, to them, one lion looks like the next.

Aaron,
Just want to clarify with you: are you insinuating that this is how TGT conducts itself on lion hunts?

Bwana - First of all, NO! Its a question, about a very likely scenario, not an insinuation. I greatly respect TGT's initiatives and desire for Lion conservation. That I would NEVER dispute. Likely nobody spends more time or money "trying" to get it right, and I applaud you for that! I do however find it interesting that I pose ALL of the questions, like this one, and the ones in my previous posts, and none of them are answered??????

However, I think my point has been well made throughout this thread and others. And my question you high-light above, is a valid one! In fact, wasn't it a similar issue to the one above, that got Steve Chancellor all hot under the collar on his lion hunt with TGT? There's a big difference between doing the best you can to get it right, and claiming to ALWAYS know what's right, then a bunch of males like these show up, and no one knows a darn thing.

Your own posts, as well as mine, proves the whole point I have been making for years. Do the best you can, be vigilant in your approach to shooting lions, but to think one has it ALL figured out when it comes to wild animals, is a total false-hood!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bwana - First of all, NO! Its a question, about a very likely scenario, not an insinuation. I greatly respect TGT's initiatives and desire for Lion conservation. That I would NEVER dispute. Likely nobody spends more time or money "trying" to get it right, and I applaud you for that! I do however find it interesting that I pose ALL of the questions, like this one, and the ones in my previous posts, and none of them are answered??????

The answer to your question lies along the lines of what Lane stated with the final decision lying with the PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
.... And my question you high-light above, is a valid one! In fact, wasn't it a similar issue to the one above, that got Steve Chancellor all hot under the collar on his lion hunt with TGT?

I am quite sure we covered this issue before but to clarify, no, I don't believe the scenario are the same at all. To start with the lions seen on the Chancellor safari were "cubs" compared to either of these!But I am not prepared to discuss details of past client safaris.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson: There's a big difference between doing the best you can to get it right, and claiming to ALWAYS know what's right, then a bunch of males like these show up, and no one knows a darn thing.

I agree on the difference you state. I trust you are not implying that I "ALWAYS" claim to know what is right are you? And for the scenario you refer to, my answer is above - which could differ with the phs' decision.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Your own posts, as well as mine, proves the whole point I have been making for years. Do the best you can, be vigilant in your approach to shooting lions, but to think one has it ALL figured out when it comes to wild animals, is a total false-hood!

Semi agree with you here. You have forcefully argued for the use of quotas as a way to control sport hunting of lions - or at least that is how I and others have understood your statements.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bwana - First of all, NO! Its a question, about a very likely scenario, not an insinuation. I greatly respect TGT's initiatives and desire for Lion conservation. That I would NEVER dispute. Likely nobody spends more time or money "trying" to get it right, and I applaud you for that! I do however find it interesting that I pose ALL of the questions, like this one, and the ones in my previous posts, and none of them are answered??????

The answer to your question lies along the lines of what Lane stated with the final decision lying with the PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
.... And my question you high-light above, is a valid one! In fact, wasn't it a similar issue to the one above, that got Steve Chancellor all hot under the collar on his lion hunt with TGT?

I am quite sure we covered this issue before but to clarify, no, I don't believe the scenario are the same at all. To start with the lions seen on the Chancellor safari were "cubs" compared to either of these!But I am not prepared to discuss details of past client safaris.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson: There's a big difference between doing the best you can to get it right, and claiming to ALWAYS know what's right, then a bunch of males like these show up, and no one knows a darn thing.

I agree on the difference you state. I trust you are not implying that I "ALWAYS" claim to know what is right are you? And for the scenario you refer to, my answer is above - which could differ with the phs' decision.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Your own posts, as well as mine, proves the whole point I have been making for years. Do the best you can, be vigilant in your approach to shooting lions, but to think one has it ALL figured out when it comes to wild animals, is a total false-hood!

Semi agree with you here. You have forcefully argued for the use of quotas as a way to control sport hunting of lions - or at least that is how I and others have understood your statements.

According to you, the PH would make the final decision to shoot one of these UNKNOWN lions based on his knowledge and personal experience?? Pretty much what I've said from the get-go. Let the experts make the decisions, and leave the UNKNOWN facts out of it.

I have argued forcefully for tightly controlled quotas, and conservation minded decisions, made by PH's who have the best interest of the lion, first at hand. And scenarios just like this, are why its the ONLY way it can legitimately be done under WILD conditions! All this time, money, effort and insinuations that others aren't doing it right, and the PH IN THIS CASE, is in the EXACT same boat as all the rest of em. MAKE YOUR BEST DECISION, AND LIVE WITH IT!

Tanzania for example, needs to set up a program in which ALL lions shot must be aged AFTER death. This would start to give a good idea of WHO really is doing it right, and where quotas need to be adjusted. If a company is seen to consistently shoot young lions, maybe set the following rule. One that states if any lion of 3 - 4 yrs or younger is shot, 1 lion is removed from the company's quota for 2 - 3 years?. I don't know, but this is just an example. We ALL know what a mature lion is and looks like. And PH's need to start being held accountable, by the hunting community for less that acceptable cats. And I'm not talking about scraggly maned lions that are fully mature. I'm talking about these 3yr old males, with spots, little immature bodies, and a cat that is without question, YOUNG!!

But to say we are gonna go out, age lions on the paw, and we KNOW all of our lions, and this info should be used to set a guideline or rule implemented by the entire country, I'm against it. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
According to you, the PH would make the final decision to shoot one of these UNKNOWN lions based on his knowledge and personal experience?? Pretty much what I've said from the get-go. Let the experts make the decisions, and leave the UNKNOWN facts out of it.

The PH has been "armed" with information and scientific data from the scientific and research community in order to make that decision. His experience assists in putting the knowledge gained from scientific research into praxctice. PHs are NOT wildlife conservation professionals (at least most of them aren't) and therefore don't always have the correct answer to conservation issues! Surely you agree with this?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:I have argued forcefully for tightly controlled quotas, and conservation minded decisions, made by PH's who have the best interest of the lion, first at hand.

I challenge this statement strongly! The evidence is all over the pages of hunting magazines and hunting websites! Immature, young lions are consistantly being hunted THROUGH PHs decisions who DO NOT have the best interest of wild lions in mind! I would say these form the MAJORITY.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:Tanzania for example, needs to set up a program in which ALL lions shot must be aged AFTER death..

How are you going to "age" them Aaron when you state that it is impossible? I think I know what you are saying and the "aging" after death should also serve to confirm or not what the Ph estimated the age of the cat prior to being hunted! It doesn't help if we only "age" after death and not before death as well. You, Aaron, now believe a lion can be "aged" after death. The same way one ages after death should be used to age before death using applicable criteria for each case.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:This would start to give a good idea of WHO really is doing it right, and where quotas need to be adjusted.

Aaron, most hunting concessions in Tz have a annual lion quota of between 2 and 6, generally based on the size of the concession and historical quota allocated. What the WD tries to do is distribute the CITES country quota (I believe is 500) across all blocks. You will agree that that is pretty conservative, particuarly as records show that an average of 200 lions a year are sport hunted in total! But what if 50% or more of these 200 lions shot are the wrong ones?? Conservative quotas WITHOUT A PENALTY SYSTEM WILL NOT WORK!! And you can't have a penalty system unless you have set minimum criteria to guide it. and you can't set minimum criteria unless you have some scientific data to support it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:If a company is seen to consistently shoot young lions, maybe set the following rule. One that states if any lion of 3 - 4 yrs or younger is shot, 1 lion is removed from the company's quota for 2 - 3 years?. I don't know, but this is just an example. ..

This is being applied in Mozambique's Niassa coutada's and appears to be working well. One of the reasons I think it works well there is because it is a) voluntary and b) there are only a handful of operators, all of good repute, who value lion conservation efforts and they all agree on the principles. I believe it would be much harder to achieve the same consensus country wide. Across an entire national industry, you will have 20% - 40% of the operators/phs that are motivated by profit alone and will not care. the result is that over a short period of repetitive infringmeents, a concession quota can go from 5 lions to 0 and then what? The operator moves on and a new one will be hard to find to take over a block with zero lion quota! This system is heavily reliant on a strong sense of conservation ethics by the operator/ph.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:We ALL know what a mature lion is and looks like. And PH's need to start being held accountable, by the hunting community for less that acceptable cats. And I'm not talking about scraggly maned lions that are fully mature. I'm talking about these 3yr old males, with spots, little immature bodies, and a cat that is without question, YOUNG!!

Agree and been hashed out here before. Appropriate penalties to PHs and outfitters would make them accountable as well as adjusting their quotas maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:But to say we are gonna go out, age lions on the paw, and we KNOW all of our lions, and this info should be used to set a guideline or rule implemented by the entire country, I'm against it. JMO.

Confusing. You say we can "age" lions after death but can't on the paw? I've said this countless times before but will repeat once again for you; when we talk about aging a lion on the paw we are by no means trying to age it "to the day of birth"! It is sufficient to estimate the age into age brackets. The one that concerns us hunters most is the age bracket between 5 and 6 years of age as everyone agrees (for the most part) that younger than 5 and older than 6 is possible. The 5 to 6 year age bracket is only possible through research, data from known age lions, analyzing "after death" lions for age indicators, scientific data and, last but not least, experience. That is what some people have tried to do. A simple example of how "knowing" lions in your concession is useful in determining age is if a lion is seen and the age estimated at around 4 years old. the same lion is seen again several times over a period of 2 years. Well, he is now estiamted at around 6 years of age. You have 2 choices if you see him again, estimate him at over 6 and hunt it or estimate him at under 6 and pass him (assuming the other criteria such as pride male with young, etc are ticked). If you are unsure of the which answer is applicable, err on the side of caution and let him walk. The latter decision is the challenge thrown to us hunters, but one we should not shy away from.

By the way, the 3 males that started this debate have been seen/monitored three days in a row without any sign of females. I have my own ideas as to where they fit in in the ecology of the concession but that is just my opinion.

quote:

the 3 males that started this debate have been seen/monitored three days in a row without any sign of females. I have my own ideas as to where they fit in in the ecology of the concession but that is just my opinion.

Mich, are you suggesting the two newcomers might have been captive-bred and released?

quote:

The PH has been "armed" with information and scientific data from the scientific and research community in order to make that decision. His experience assists in putting the knowledge gained from scientific research into praxctice. PHs are NOT wildlife conservation professionals (at least most of them aren't) and therefore don't always have the correct answer to conservation issues! Surely you agree with this?

quote:

The same way one ages after death should be used to age before death using applicable criteria for each case.

With the exception of dental x-rays and hopefully in the near future genetic markers.

quote:

Conservative quotas WITHOUT A PENALTY SYSTEM WILL NOT WORK!!

Unfortunately...that is probably very true.

It is like my profession...it does not work to tell racehorse trainers it is illegal to give certain meds prior to racing unless you test the horses afterwards and inflict a penalty if illegal substances are found. Unfortunately...when money is involed...people can NOT be relied on to just do the right thing.

There ARE PH's out there that would risk loosing a clint to NOT shoot the WRONG lion and then there are those...

I am so happy though...that we have folks in our hunting industry like Aaron & Bwanamich...that are so PASSIONATE about lion conservation and NOT driven entirely by the Golden Rule.

If we're talking Tz, there are penalties in place already for taking undersized/underage animals which is anything up to the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee, plus possible confiscation of the trophy plus suspension or revocation of the PHs licence.

Linking punishment to reduction of next years quota might be very effective though.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

the 3 males that started this debate have been seen/monitored three days in a row without any sign of females. I have my own ideas as to where they fit in in the ecology of the concession but that is just my opinion.

Mich, are you suggesting the two newcomers might have been captive-bred and released?

Not a chance. I thnk these are a coalition of males that probably have a pride somewhere, and have decided to go "walk about" - as Aaron likes to correctly refer - in search of expanding territory, possibly where they feel there is a "vacuum".

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

the 3 males that started this debate have been seen/monitored three days in a row without any sign of females. I have my own ideas as to where they fit in in the ecology of the concession but that is just my opinion.

Mich, are you suggesting the two newcomers might have been captive-bred and released?

Not a chance. I thnk these are a coalition of males that probably have a pride somewhere, and have decided to go "walk about" - as Aaron likes to correctly refer - in search of expanding territory, possibly where they feel there is a "vacuum".

.....and so.....after three days of monitoring them and knowing they are 1. mature and 2. without females (at this time) would TGT let one of its clients take them even though they may hold a pride somewhere else?

Brett

The TGT PHs are all professionals with outstanding experience and reputations in ethical hunting. They have been part and parcel of the entire development of TGTs hunting policies and conservation process for the last decade. This is an evolving process and the final decision on hunting any animal on safari lies squarely on the shoulders of the PH at hand. We trust they will make the right decision in the best interest of both conservation and the client.

I can tell you what I would do in that situation. I can't tell you what any individual PH would do as I am not them. TGT's management will fully support whichever decision taken by the PH.

I can tell you that removing one male out of a coalition of three is not detrimental to a pride that may be depending on those males. 2 fully mature males can protect a pride quite as well as three! So removing one won't have much effect. Even more so when the pride males in question are past that critical 6 year old threshold because the chances are that their pride tenure is already nearing its end and they have been able to raise their offspring to adulthood at least once!

quote:

Originally posted July 1 by fairgame:
... are currently coming out of the Kafue in Zambia. One picture I am just awaiting permission to post and the other will be posted shortly.

Does 'shortly' normally mean more than 2 weeks in Zambia?

Sorry guys, I am just busy as hell right now, and can't keep up with all the posts.

Bwanamich - Know this, whether we agree or dis-agree on some of the ways to go about it. I have not seen anyone more passionate about lions than yourself, and know that I respect and support ALL of your efforts. Without TGT's efforts, much of the info & issues would still be COMPLETELY unknown to the public.

DITTO

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
DITTO

Bwana - I have figured out how we settle this once and for all. We meet at the Giraffe bar at SCI in January, we arm wrestle, best two out of three wins! After that, we do it your way or my way??? Then I'll buy the drinks, cause I'm gonna need them to recover from all the physical activity.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
DITTO

Bwana - I have figured out how we settle this once and for all. We meet at the Giraffe bar at SCI in January, we arm wrestle, best two out of three wins! After that, we do it your way or my way??? Then I'll buy the drinks, cause I'm gonna need them to recover from all the physical activity.

You will have home advantage so we need Lane to come and referee! Seriously, I don't think I will make my way across next January.... I've had my share of the convention circus.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted July 1 by fairgame:
... are currently coming out of the Kafue in Zambia. One picture I am just awaiting permission to post and the other will be posted shortly.

Does 'shortly' normally mean more than 2 weeks in Zambia?

Sorry but can only send it to your email. Send me a PM if this is good for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
DITTO

Bwana - I have figured out how we settle this once and for all. We meet at the Giraffe bar at SCI in January, we arm wrestle, best two out of three wins! After that, we do it your way or my way??? Then I'll buy the drinks, cause I'm gonna need them to recover from all the physical activity.

You will have home advantage so we need Lane to come and referee! Seriously, I don't think I will make my way across next January.... I've had my share of the convention circus.

I hear ya there!