From: Denise Leith <deniseleith@iprimus.com.au>
To: saeed@emirates.net.ae
Subject:
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:09:06 +1100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843


I accidently found your site while looking for photos of Mambas. I can't think how else to say this, but you are repulsive. Boys with big guns pretending they are brave warriors. How pathetic!

Dr Denise Leith
Honorary Associate
Department of Politics and International Relations
Macquarie University
Sydney

A perfect example of someone who does not have a life.

Sounds like a typical educated idiot she even tells you were she "works" maybe send her a few pictures of what a shotgun can do to a mamba .............seriously Saeed I would make a complaint to the Australian Embassy and propose a ban from any one from Sydney Uni. visiting your country!

i just send this to:

Caroline.Trotman@vc.mq.edu.au, deniseleith@iprimus.com.au

Dear caroline

This statement were just published on a major internet huntingforum, i would like to know if this represent the official attitude your university has regarding hunting. If so then i think that it should be put on your website for all to read, so they can be aware of this, when they choose which school to attend.
I am looking forward to your answer regarding this, so i can publish it on the forum and off course to my customors and the private high schools in the area.

quote:
I accidently found your site while looking for photos of Mambas. I can't think how else to say this, but you are repulsive. Boys with big guns pretending they are brave warriors. How pathetic!

Dr Denise Leith
Honorary Associate
Department of Politics and International Relations
Macquarie University
Sydney

end quote:

Best regards

Peter Als Nerving
John Rigby & Co. Ltd.
Vicarage House
58-60 Kensington Church Street
Kensington
London W8 4DB, UK

How interesting to see that a doctor is not only dumb enough to be so misinformed about African hunting but also so dumb as to include her official signature in her email which indicates that she speaks for the Department of Politics and International Relations, Macquarie University, Sydney, Australia.

I note that all the contact details of the various depts are here: http://www.mq.edu.au/contact/ and that her own email address is deniseleith@iprimus.com.au.

Hypothetically, just think how awkward it would be for her personally and for the University as a whole if lots of individual AR members emailed those or all of the email addresses to thank them for her message in the name of the University and to point out that even CITES etc accept that hunting is a perfectly valid conservastion tool and that both Ms Leith and the University for whom she so obviously speaks, have formed their opinion on African hunting on emotion and knee jerk reaction rather than science, which of course must mean that the entire University is obviously not fit for purpose.

Also, bearing in mind that she represents the Department of Politics and International Relations in particular, her message that was directed to an influential member of Dubai society might also be construed as a highly offensive political move and that perhaps she should apologise and reconsider her position.

It certainly wouldn't do her career or her mailbox a whole lot of good!



Ho hum, just an idle thought.

I almost wrote "Girls with little minds pretending to be scholars", but instead wrote:

Dear Denise,

The moderator of the Accurate Reloading website posted a message sent to him by you. If you did not send it, please accept my apologies and ignore my comments.

But if you did send it, being an accomplished researcher and scholar, you should know better than to offer that sort of general condemnation.

The hunting community has done more to protect wildlife and habitat globally than all of the environmental NGOs combined – and it is at Accurate Reloading where the hunting community debates the issues.

The southern Africa model, where the “sustainable utilization of natural
resources” has become a way of life, probably provides the best example. Wildlife populations have skyrocketed; rural peoples have benefitted and been empowered; and habitat has not only been protected, but restored on a scale
that The Nature Conservancy could only wish to accomplish.

Below are just a few quotes from some of the major NGOs. I could give you many, many more examples. I sign off first though, and send my best regards.

Yours truly,
Steve Gluck
Cambridge, Ma.


TRAFFIC, the wildlife trade monitoring network wrote: “In summary, sport hunting in the SADC region represents an important industry that significantly contributes not only to national economies but also to maintaining the
livelihoods of many of the region's rural communities.” (TRAFFIC - Barnett &
Patterson 2005)

The World Wildlife Fund wrote: “Trophy hunting, where it is scientifically based and properly managed, has been proven to be an effective conservation and management tool in some countries and for certain species.” (WWF - Little
2005).

The Society for Conservation Biology published a report that concluded: “Trophy hunting generates more income per client than tourism and has potentially lower environmental impact through disturbance, fossil fuel use, and habitat conversion. Hunting operations do not rely on the costly infrastructure required for ecotourism and can generate revenues where ecotourism may not be viable. (SCB - Lindsey, Frank, Alexander, Mathieson and Romanach 2006)

The WWF again (Curtis Freese): “Few places on earth have the right combination of ecological and socioeconomic conditions for biodiversity conservation to be adequately served solely by the union of private property rights and
unregulated markets. Southern Africa, where recreational hunting often provides both the economically most profitable land use and an incentive for landowners to maintain significant levels of biodiversity, is one of the few exceptions.” (WWF – Freese: Wild Species as Commodities, 1998 pg. 196)

Good letter, Steve. I think people who are clearly not as educated as the believe they might be are better off with this sort of response rather than something negative. Funny how they freely express contempt and judgement before they even consider looking at the facts.

Some good replies fellas!

Hope Steve doesn't mind, but having cribbed from his email, I've just sent the following to Dr Leith and all the other email addresses on the University website contact page..... and would encourage other to do the same:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I write to complain about the remarks made by Dr Denise Leith who apparently claims to speak for Macquarie University where she addresses her remarks in a totally unsolicited email to one of the Royal family of Dubai (Saeed Al Maktoum) and says:


From: Denise Leith <deniseleith@iprimus.com.au>
To: saeed@emirates.net.ae
Subject:
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:09:06 +1100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843


I accidently found your site while looking for photos of Mambas. I can't think how else to say this, but you are repulsive. Boys with big guns pretending they are brave warriors. How pathetic!

Dr Denise Leith
Honorary Associate
Department of Politics and International Relations
Macquarie University
Sydney

A perfect example of someone who does not have a life.

Please note that I see this as a perfect example of ignorance and knee jerk reaction from someone who as an Honorary Associate Doctor in the Department of Politics and International Relations of Macquarie University Sydney should know considerably better than to send what is in effect, hate mail.

The hunting community has done more to protect wildlife and habitat globally than all of the environmental NGOs combined – and it is at Accurate Reloading where the hunting community debates the issues.

The southern Africa model, where the “sustainable utilization of natural resources” has become a way of life, probably provides the best example. Wildlife populations have skyrocketed; rural peoples have benefitted and been empowered; and habitat has not only been protected, but restored on a scale
that The Natural Conservancy could only wish to accomplish.

Below are just a few quotes from some of the major NGOs. I could give you many, many more examples.

TRAFFIC, the wildlife trade monitoring network wrote: “In summary, sport hunting in the SADC region represents an important industry that significantly contributes not only to national economies but also to maintaining the livelihoods of many of the region's rural communities.” (TRAFFIC - Barnett &
Patterson 2005)

The World Wildlife Fund wrote: “Trophy hunting, where it is scientifically based and properly managed, has been proven to be an effective conservation and management tool in some countries and for certain species.” (WWF - Little 2005).

The Society for Conservation Biology published a report that concluded: “Trophy hunting generates more income per client than tourism and has potentially lower environmental impact through disturbance, fossil fuel use, and habitat conversion. Hunting operations do not rely on the costly infrastructure required for ecotourism and can generate revenues where ecotourism may not be viable. (SCB - Lindsey, Frank, Alexander, Mathieson and Romanach 2006)

The WWF again (Curtis Freese): “Few places on earth have the right combination of ecological and socioeconomic conditions for biodiversity conservation to be adequately served solely by the union of private property rights and unregulated markets. Southern Africa, where recreational hunting often provides both the economically most profitable land use and an incentive for landowners to maintain significant levels of biodiversity, is one of the few exceptions.” (WWF – Freese: Wild Species as Commodities, 1998 pg. 196)

I feel that Dr Leith needs to make an immediate and public apology to Saeed Al Maktoum and his many friends around the world for her unfair and misinformed comments.

Regards

Steve Robinson
south Africa

It would be interesting to know how much revenue was created for the conservation of African wildlife and their home range from one of Saeeds Safaris?
Quite possibly more than this person will donate within her life time.

Some may say this does not justify the killing of an animal. But do we need to justify what is natural and legal?

Headline: World Wide Web
Moderator for Hunting Forum throws unsuspecting poster under a bus.

Damn Saeed, did you have to post all of her contact info? What's her address?

This raises a couple of thoughts;

Consider the state of politics in the world, consider international relations in certain parts of the world.

Denise Leith said rather concern herself with these two subjects as I presume she is paid to do, rather than concern herself with mambas.

Denise Leith's skills at international relations are probabily zero. What a gaff, sending a daft e-mail to a member of the Royal Family of Dubai.

I come to the conclusion that the said institution could save itself a little money. getting rid of dead wood.

Steve, that was an excellent draft email. Having said that, I am not sure that all the "piling on" is valid.
1. She does identify herself rather than sending an email from some weird and meaningless email address like ABC123@bellsouth.net. While it is possible she is trying to impress with her title and job, it is also possible that she is acting with some level of integrity.
2. It is clear to me (although perhaps not to others) than her interest in mambas is personal, rather than connected with "Politics and International Relations".
3. How is she supposed to know that Saeed is connected with the Royal Family of Dubai? I suspect that many newer members of this board do not know that.
4. If she is an "Honorary Associate" then she is probably NOT a member of the faculty at that institution.
5. We may be guilty of the same kneejerk reaction of which we are accusing her.
Peter.

Sent the mail below with cc to the Vice-Chancellor.

From: Gerard [gerard@wol.co.za]
To: deniseleith@iprimus.com.au
Cc: kathy.vozella@mq.edu.au
Subject: Tolerance and thought
Sent: Thu, 7/01/2010 3:05 PM

Dear Dr. Leith,
This mail is in response to your unsolicited mail below.

Given the vehement tone of your message, I trust that you do not wear leather shoes, eat meat of any kind and do not use any products that required the killing of any animal. That would be the only way in which you could claim the moral high ground that you think you occupy. It is of course debatable whether killing vegetables for food justifies claiming higher morals than the killing of animals for food.

Should you not be a vegetarian but do enjoy meat as part of your diet, I encourage you to visit your local abattoir and to follow the process by which meat arrives on your table. You will see the naked fear in the eyes of the animals waiting to be killed and slaughtered - animals that are bred with the specific purpose of being killed at a predetermined point for your sustenance.

There are two types of hunting: Those who eat what they kill and those who hunt for the trophy and the service they render in the hunting of that trophy.

Eating what you kill is simple to understand. I have no problem with doing the killing myself and you, if you are not a vegetarian and wear only synthetic material shoes, pay someone to do the killing on your behalf. It is debatable whether hiring an assassin is more or less ethical than going out and doing it yourself.

Trophy hunting often elicit strong feelings from those who do not understand it. The truth of the matter is that, if it were not for trophy hunting, the extinct animal list would be a much longer one. No doubt your University, on whose behalf you speak, has the research facility to prove that statement.

In Africa, trophy hunting, combined with meat hunting, brings income to areas and communities who would otherwise not be able to sustain themselves. These communities would either starve or be a burden to the International communities and organisations. Without the income from hunting, these communities would eradicate animal populations for food and to make way for crop farming and, with the first sustained drought, be a burden anyway.

Many things in life are repulsive to different people. War is repulsive but someone has to do it. Plumbers sometimes have repulsive work to do - work that I would prefer not to do - but I do not find soldiers or plumbers repulsive. You may have habits or conventions that may be repulsive to me but, unless you snort coke or have some devious fixation that is truly repulsive, I would accept those habits as part of who you are.

Personally I think you owe Saeed and the community at Accurate Reloading an apology. Your letter reflects an intolerant attitude that does not become a thinking person and that is a troubling thought, given your position at an institute of learning.

Sincerely,

Gerard Schultz
GS Custom

Oooohhh. A PhD. Honorary Associate. More Ooooohhhh.

Political butt monkey. More Oooooooooooohhhhh.

She is what is wrong with the once masculine now chick neutered politically correct class. What ever happened to the real men? Piss on her.

As I see it, by putting her title and who she works for in her signature, she is suggesting she speaks for the University.

Whoever Saeed is, is actually irrelevent, because (IMO) everyone should be treated with politeness, no matter what their rank, title or fortune........ although the fact that she works for the Department of Politics and International Relations and directed her comments to Saeed, does to me at least, lend a certain humour and hilarity to the situation.

Let's face it, whoever she is, no one has the right to be offensive etc to someone else and bearing in mind, she's an educated lady, working and seemingly claiming to speak for a centre of advanced learning, she should have known better than to send needless, unsolicited, offensive emails.

I ceetainly believe she should apologise to Saeed for the insult and to the University for the attempt to lend additional credence to her message by using their name.

There is only an answer:

KRIEG! KRIEG! KRIEG!

OOOOOOHHHHH YEAHHHHHH





About Dr Leith? What do I think?
What do I hope?

Tell her to go wet her bed.

Well, if ever someone proved my tag line to be accurate, this woman ceratinly does...


*********

There are an array of academics from those who THINK that they think critcally and those who do, those who can only perform behind their computers and those who perform on the keyboard, the mind and in the field - those are the ones who I respect...oh, and I am doing my PhD, so am an acdemic myself.

PS I find her email to be quite pathetic!

Please post any responses you receive.

She is also an author, her publisher is Random House, perhaps they should know she is offending people on a global basis as well. Didn't do Zumbo any good

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
She is what is wrong with the once masculine now chick neutered politically correct class. What ever happened to the real men? Piss on her.

While SteveGI's email is more acutely attuned to academic sensibilities - and is entirely accurate as far as it goes - I have to say that, IMHO, Will's post strikes harder at the heart of the problem.

I know men who would like to hunt, or who would like to hang mounts of their hunting trophies in their homes, but who won't (or can't) do either, because their wives or girlfriends do not approve.

I love sexist statements by women, whose ancestors went to prison over the right to vote. Some folks are so smart that they're stupid. May you be eaten alive, unarmed, by a rabid wallaby...

Here's the email that I sent to Ms. Leith, and copied to the Department Administrator, University Provost and Department faculty.

Dear Ms. Leith,

I read, with disappointment, your email to Saeed Al Maktoum, the owner of Accurate Reloading. I say I read your email with disappointment precisely because your closed mind is the perfect example of what is wrong with so much of the education system in this day and age. While your personal values may find hunting to be something “repulsive” (to borrow your exact characterization) others find it to be a wholesome and worthwhile activity. One would hope that in an institution of higher learning that the faculty and administration would be populated by people with open and inquisitive minds, rather than someone with a closed mind and mis-informed, and inaccurate view of activities which she does not understand. You certainly strike me as an example of the latter.

Madam, what you do not know about hunting and its role in conservation on a world-wide scale would make for an interesting semester class at your university. Lawful, regulated sport hunting has been proven to be one of the greatest and most effective conservation tools for wildlife and the habitats they occupy everywhere it has been practiced around the world. While you may not personally care for this activity, you must surely realize that it is not only a legitimate practice, but essential to the existence of so many wild animals, even entire species, also that it is essential to wildlife and environmental conservation everywhere it is practiced. Perhaps you should take the time to actually learn about hunting and how it positively impacts conservation and the indigenous communities who live around wild animals and in wild lands, than to attack a fine gentleman, Mr. Al-Maktoum, because he happens to have a website for people who actually do understand the role hunting plays in conservation and who enjoy the activity. One thing is certain, many of the people who do engage in hunting have a better understanding of conservation and more open and inquisitive minds than you displayed in writing the following email which prompted this reply:

From: Denise Leith <deniseleith@iprimus.com.au>
To: saeed@emirates.net.ae
Subject:
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:09:06 +1100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843


I accidently found your site while looking for photos of Mambas. I can't think how else to say this, but you are repulsive. Boys with big guns pretending they are brave warriors. How pathetic!

Dr Denise Leith
Honorary Associate
Department of Politics and International Relations
Macquarie University
Sydney


I certainly hope that since you are employed in an institute of higher learning, that you’ll take advantage of the opportunity to educate yourself about hunting and perhaps gain a better understanding that will enlighten you. You may not personally care for it, but perhaps you engage in activities that many other worthwhile people don’t approve of, but have the good sense to not insult you by saying “…you are repulsive.” Open your mind and think about it, afterall, that’s what people who seek higher education and knowledge are supposed to do. You should also come to an understanding that many people engage in activities that are not for everyone, but because one is not interested in pursuing an activity does not make others who do ‘repulsive’ or any less valuable members of society than you probably view yourself.

In closing, I’ll leave you with two thoughts. First, isn’t it ironic that you work in the Department of Politics and International Relations, and that you chose to personally insult a gentleman who is a member of the Dubai Royal Family. Second, your email supports my theory that a higher education does not always equal greater intelligence, and that they can be mutually exclusive concepts. Your comments in that email certainly prove that theory to be true.

Sincerely,


*********

She:

Can't
Understand
Normal
Thinking

IMHO

Poor lass, she could not have had any idee what she was stepping into

I think the lady sent a B.S. email. I just did a web search for the school and it is real. However, I also went to the staff listing search engine and entered the name Denise Leith and it came back as no such person on record.

Also, the school offers a degree in Environmental Diversity which requires classes in biology and wildlife management. It stands to reason that of a professor at the school wanted images of mamba, then they would turn to a fellow professor for them.

The school seems to have a pretty good virtual library available as well. I'm pretty sure she would have used the facilities available at the school.

And finally, if someone wanted images from the web, they could very easily go to a sight like google, and go to the images page. Such a search would not even link to AR.

So, my opinion is that the email is B.S. I don't doubt for a minute that she sent it to Saeed, but there is now way in hell that she is a professor at any college.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
She:

Can't
Understand
Normal
Thinking

IMHO

Understanding that anyone can read these forums I feel it is to our advantage to always be accurate, speak courteously, and avoid statements that inflame.

Many responses such as SteveG1 and Gerard are excellent and reflect well on our interests. Some of the others not only reinforce a very poor image held by many, but may adversely influence those who have "no opinion" against our community.

The lady probably didn't expect that her e-mail would end up on a public forum. That said, she was rude and should not be surprised by some negative feedback. My advice to her would be "don't start something you can't finish".

From my standard site name, you may have guessed I am a professor also, having my Doctorate in Psychology and teaching that and sociology courses. I get the same comments at the university at which I teach. I also dish out some of the same rebuttal that is cited above.
Sometimes though, I have been known to tell someone who is really obnoxious to just...
"Perform an unnatural act upon thyself!"
Oooh, how terrible of me.
Max

Guys:

I'll use a tactical analogy to share my view of this matter. This may have been a probe by the enemy to solicit certain types of responses. To "test" us, if you will.

The well-written, polite, courteous, logical emails referencing the science of hunting and game management are not what the author is interested in. Some of the other responses seen on this thread are EXACTLY what the author is looking for. They will do nothing but confirm and bolster the opinion of those whose agenda is being pushed. Moreover, they will be stored, cataloged, shared among the opposition, and used against us in the future.

The "Greens" do this kind of stuff all the time. It's a tactic found in their intel ops.

In Australia, what is the significance of an "honorary associate"?

Dr Denise Leith
Honorary Associate
Department of Politics and International Relations
Macquarie University
Sydney

quote:

Originally posted by VVarrior:
From her photograph, it appears that she is white...

Apparently she has some sort of skin pigmentation disorder! There's no reasoning with the unreasonable!

Brett

Saeed, that is practically a love letter compared to the hate my organization gets. If you want to visit the dark side sometime go to Hate Mail

Did she ever get her picture?

I would rate the woman's first foray into practical international relations as an epic fail ...

From the post above:

Denise Leith has a Ph.D. in international relations. From an initial background in stockbroking she has taught Middle East politics, Australian politics and international relations at university with special interests in US foreign policy and the Middle East.

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
In Australia, what is the significance of an "honorary associate"?

Dr Denise Leith
Honorary Associate
Department of Politics and International Relations
Macquarie University
Sydney

Another name for professional student I believe... She is probably just a researcher/tutor or somesuch. Perhaps your emails should be directed to the Dean of the relevant faculty - doubt you'll get her sacked though...