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One of Us |
I deleted this post for one reason. No one on this or any other forum is allowed to have a different opinion without half the forum telling them how stupid they are. It's amazing how tough people act when they have 20,000 miles of wire and a computer between them and you. | ||
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I noticed I made some gramatical mistakes on my first post. Feel free to low brow that if you need to. | |||
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In the hands of skilled Archer a bow is okay if everything is lined up right. In the hands of most Bowhunters an arrow is wounding tool that is best left for the backyard. As for hunting DG, if Bowhunters were willing to go with another Bowhunter backing him up instead of a rifle it would be worth buying the videos.  | |||
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Mate, That is quoteable! And yes it would. What did they call that Fox show Animals behaving badly? | |||
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My bow experience is 9 different plains game, plus various elk deer bear mountain lion and turkey. So far all clean but the eland, which required a follow up the next morning and I didnt screw around and used my 375. With that being said I am no longer a big fan of bow hunting big game. That is just me. I will be the first to admit that I may only be right as to me. Remember the real problem with bow hunting and other weapon hunting is the same. Our sport attracks morons and unethical people second only to the legal profession. (Based on my non-scientific survey). From them you get the shots beyond their clean ability, whether distance, cover, physical conditioning or weather related..Assuming they know what they are doing only greed can explain some of the stupid shots I have seen taken with bow rifle pistol and muzzleloader. Their desire to kill the animal is greater then their desire for a garrenteed clean kill. Yes I know there is no 100% garrentee on any shot. That combined with my personsl view that bows are not as effective killing devices. Has got me to this point. | |||
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I agree with much of what you say, D99. Bows are fine, but must be used within honest limitations. I am, however, uncomfortable with your baboon story! I also have many baboons on my ranch that are problem animals, but an animal is an animal and I do not allow shots that have a high chance of wounding. My opinion is that every animal deserves this consideration. | |||
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Ethical hunting is ethical hunting. Gun or bow it dosent matter. I am a bowhunter and a gun hunter. I have killed animals just as quickly with my bow as my rifle. Gun hunters should not bash bowhunters and bowhunters should not bash gun hunters or pretty soon we will have no hunters. Just my opinion. | |||
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I have to agree with Karoo! What is the difference between the hunter who takes a shot beyond his ability regardless of his choice of weapon or the hunter who takes a shot at a animal that he deems is unworthy of a clean one shot kill? IMO both are wrong and the weapon they are holding has nothing to do with it. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by D99: I will be the first to admit I don't like bowhunting. I know that some guys can put an arrow through the vitals a huge percent of the time, but can they do it every time and at every angle? [QUOTE] Well I know some guys shooting a rifle can put a bullet through the vitals a huge percent of the time. but can they do it every time and at every angle?  Sorry to say but I think there will always be people that dont know their limits make bad shot ect. ect whether with a bow, rifle , pistol, slingshot, spear whatever. | |||
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I think bow hunting is fine IF the archer is capable and knowledgable and will listen to the PH. Same with muzzle loader hunters, 45-70 hunters, pistol hunters, and rifle hunters. I certainly don't think anyone that hunts can condemn any of the above just because they use a different dicipline to hunt with. I sure know a bunch of rifle hunters that need shooting lessons. I have certainly seen times when I could have used a lesson or two with my rifle. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Well said Ray. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Of course you can't put an arrow through to the vital from any angle with a bow. That is part of the bow hunter game. You MUST wait for the right angle. ( Same goes for all of you high velocity "Wounderbeast" shooters out there.) As Ray said you can choose to be ethical with or unethical with any choice of weapon. | |||
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While on safari in Zim I saw a treestand setup and asked my PH what his thoughts were on bowhunters. He said he really hated to see a guy show up with a bow and it was kind of an inside thing that most PHs didn't really care for it. Rolling his eyes, etc. I guess they cater to the demand for the money but laugh about it over drinks after the hunter leaves like they probably do with the rest of us too. His comment was something like "Just get a rifle and shoot the damn thing!" I read also that by best estimates of the DNR in Colorado that the loss rate on elk was something like 28% for bowshot elk. This has been several years ago but I remember the number because it was so high. | |||
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Two of the better Elk areas in the Blue Mts in Washington have been closed to Bow hunters because of to many unrecovered Bulls. These are areas where, if drawn, you can expect a 6 point or better if you put in some effort. | |||
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I can agree that there are too many inexperienced and/or incompetent bow hunters out there, trying shots that are beyond their ability or beyond the ability of their equipment. Way too many guys try to take advantage of the addtional hunting opportunity afforded by bow seasons but don't put in the time and effort required to become proficient with a bow, or knowledgeable about how they kill and how the technology is designed to work. I would suspect that there are equally as many nimrod rifle hunters out there, but the evidence of their poor shots does end up in freezers or coyote stomachs more often. Inexperience and/or incompetence has greater repurcussions with primitive weapons. A bull elk with an arrow sticking out of his hind quarter is pretty damning to anyone that sees it. I would rather police the incompetence than ban the weapon or the seasons though. In the hand of practiced and knowledgeable hunters, the bow is a very effective tool and a helluva lot of fun to hunt with. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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I've always thought a proficency test should be required for the weapon you choose to use. If you can't hit a target at x amount of yards then you can't get that license. | |||
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Didn't the Chinese quit using bows when they discovered gunpowder? How many years ago was that? | |||
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I feel duty bound to support the view expressed by Karoo: Any animal that a real hunter shoots at with anything deserves everything the hunter can do to ensure a quick and humane kill. One exception to this rule: The enemy in a war situation: Here you shoot to wound, not to kill! In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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The bowhunting trials conducted in the late 80s or early 90s (?) by Tony Thompkinson for KZN Wildlife proved that bowhunting is as effective as rifle hunting assuming the bowhunter is well skilled with his bow and is using the right equipment for the particular species being hunted...... but that equally applies to any other kind of hunting whether it be rifle, handgun or anything else. I guess it boils down to using the right calibre/draw/bullet/arrow head etc and having the skill to take the animal at a range that is appropriate to that level of skill and within the capabilities of your weapon of choice. As Karoo and Andrew state, we owe it to our quarry to hunt in an ethical manner and within the limitations of our skills and weapons.... | |||
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Thank God! I think it was Oregon (but maybe Washington) that did a study on bowhunting kills versus wounding. The percentage of wounded and lost animals is higher than you think! | |||
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IMHO The problem with bowhunting is the amount of people who do it just to get a longer season or another tag. To be a good bowhunter one must shoot all year round. IMHO if a hunter had to choose just one season to hunt you would see the wound rate be lower in bow season that rifle season of course the animals taken and shots taken also would be much lower.(not to mention the amount of bowhunters would drop! I love to bowhunt I have not done much the last few years because I dont have the time to shoot all year. There is a differance between a bowhunter and a hunter with a bow. Dean | |||
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D99, If you are not comfortable with a bow then don't use one. I am not even sure why you want to argue this but I have seen the many posts of late that you have made concerning your dislike of bow hunting. I am comfortable hunting with a bow, rifle, muzzleloader, hounds, handguns, horses, traps, snares, etc, etc, etc. I am good at it too. I have killed most of my deer with an arrow and some pretty nice African game as well. I no longer hunt black bear with a firearm. I have never left any three legged deer out there (gun hunters) and have personally come upon many wasted deer carcases shot by a firearm but lost by the hunter due to poor shooting. Just two years ago I found three does on the property I leased who crawled to their bedding areas from a long ways away, died and rotted into possum food. They were not arrowed deer. One deer season I watched a gun hunter across the swamp from me fire at a doe and her fawns who never even looked for them to see if he even hit one. Your complaints about bow hunters are displaced. I think you miss the point of bow hunting, it is the up close and personal aspect of it that is the draw, at least it is for me. I find much more satisfaction in releasing an arrow on a bear at 20 feet than pulling a trigger on a deer 100 yards away. A good hunter, no matter the weapon, does not shoot at game no matter the angle. I think your last sentence should beg you to re-evaluate why you hunt. Just because something is "cheap" does not beg for a cheap shot. I would like to know if you killed or wounded the baboon and if it was collected? ~Ann   | |||
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I remember that study. One fellow was interviewed and when asked how he did he said 'I stuck arrows into 5 Bulls but didn't get any of them.' That is the attitude that too many bow hunters have. Proficency test. For all weapons | |||
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Well said Ann. I bowhunt because I enjoy the challenge of getting close to game and matching wits with their senses. I don't take unethical shots or shots just because there is no trophy fee if I lose it. All animals deserve the respect of a quick humane kill, if you so choose to hunt them. Trophies are not dead animals...they are living memories. | |||
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It could be said that most slob hunters carry guns, but that would be a false blanket statement, inflamitory and counter productive. | |||
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I am a member of a traditional bowhunting organization in BC. They actively promote the concept of mandatory completion of an IBEP course for anyone that wants to bowhunt in BC. I have been leery about that as hunter recruitment is good for all hunters, and bowhunting is the only increasing segment of the hunting community. BUT, the more I think about it the more I tend to agree that having well qualified and proficient hunters out there, regardless of their chosen hunting method and regardless of the possibility that the additional hassle might reduce overall hunters, is probably more important for the future of hunting than anything else. I personally would not have an issue with proficiency tests. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Well said Ann. Like the old saying...People living in glass houses should not throw stones, eh? Every year our field staff find quite a few 5-point elk carcasses. One season we found close to a dozen. All of them were verified rifle kills...presumably shot and left because they didn't meet the minimum 6-point restriction (shoot first, count later). There are big issues on both sides of this debate. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Great response Ann D99, what is your agenda  These types of posts in an open forum are detrimental to all hunting.Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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speaking from my shooting experience, i can get vitals all day long up to 60 yards...i have a friend who can cut my groups in half but he has been bow hunting since a kid. there are a lot of bow shooters who should not be bow hunters is what i am getting at. shooting vitals @ 60 yards is like shooting vitals @ 400 yards. some can do it most shouldnt. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I don't know about the situation in the states. Here in BC there is less opportunity for bowhunters than rifle hunters, but the amount of bowhunting opportunity is generally increasing, given the increased uptake of bowhunting. This is where my comments will tie into yours...the rationale for liberalizing bow seasons in BC, beyond what might be considered "proportional", is usually because it is considered "non-consumptive hunting opportunity". To explain, the amount of bow kills are very low, even when you include the wounding loss, primarly because the success rates (getting close enough to shoot an arrow -- hit, miss or wound) are very low. Our wildlife managers are always looking for ways to increase the amount of "hunter opportunity". They know what the sustainable take from the population is, and can only allow so much rifle hunting opportunity or it will be exceeded quickly (we have General Open Seasons). So to make up additional opportunity they utilize the less consumptive forms of hunting (ie. primitive weapons). Since anyone can "multi-task" if they choose to, it provides additional opportunity to everyone (ie. bowhunting opportunity does not take away from rifle opportunity, if rifle hunters choose not to participate in bow seasons too, it is by choice). Maybe your wildlife managers in the states are using similar logic with their tag allocations?? Given the difference in normal success rates, including wound-loss, is the number of tags given to each sector closer to proportional? Cheers, Canuck | |||
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Didn't SA recently ban bow hunting for "thick skinned game" in connection with their new regulations regarding lion hunting in SA? SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Funny you should post this, as I just watched Kathi's video, and saw another one called "Elephant Charge" nearby so I watched that as well. It was a bowhunter, and the PH turned the charge with a couple shots over it's head. If they did'nt have that rifle, they'd be mush. If your weapon can't stop a charge, whats the point of using it at all on DG? JMO. Mark Jackson  | |||
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D, Glad you got your bobo. I think we all have had to finish an animal with more than one bullet. I double lunged a bison with an arrow in the past, I sent two more his way. I have taken the IBEP course and others but quite frankly they in themselves and in MY opinion, do not qualify anyone to sling arrows. Or the same in bullets if talking about a hunter safety class focusing on firearms. Sorry, as we know there is more to it than that. To become proficient one must practice. Yes, there are slobs and cheaters out there and there always will be. Same reason I dislike "special youth" seasons that the various states promote now. Nothing worse than hearing a very hairy chested person blurt out that, "I got a deeeeeeerrrr!" When they hear you walking in the woods on opening youth day. Or, how about at the check station on opening day of rifle and 1/2 the deer hanging there were smelling rotten. I seriously doubt they were shot that day. I personally do not release an arrow or a bullet unless I have a 100% kill shot. No way would I do anything at 80%, that means go back to the range. Everyone has their limits and I think they know what they are when hunting. I don't take 300 yard shots with a rifle, I am NOT proficient enough at that range to come up 100%. You don't have to like bow hunting, I do get sensitive when you seem to lump all bow hunters as the same, careless, and we are not. I hope you see it a bit differently now. ~Ann | |||
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You haven't answered the underlying question though...how was it ethical to shoot at a running baboon at 350 yds but it was not acceptable to shoot a zebra??? By your own admission the baboon was "cheap", so you basically took a chance on an animal because of the cost and not taking into account another living entity. I agree Ann, a good hunter does not shoot at game he can not kill with one shot. At that point in the safari I had shot that rifle a lot. So, how were you sure to kill the baboon but not a Zebra? Also, your saying that you had shot enough during your hunt to be able to take a 350yd shot on a running baboon Get your own house in order before you throw stones at anyone else for basically exhibiting the same behavior or poor ethics you've exhibited. The same type person who doesn't have the ethics to take shots they are capable of making with the bow are going to exhibit the same behavior with any weapon. This is about the person, not the method. | |||
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A baboon is a varmint, and on this ranch like Coyotes on most ranches in the west that have sheep. The rancher wanted them gone. I can't remember if I paid a trophy fee or not. To the rancher they were horrible stinking things. To his wife, they were worse. I thougt hunting baboons was the sport of kings. And I will do it again at the next oppurtunity I get. | |||
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This thread is about as stupid as any I have seen here in quite a while."Bowhunting is bad because I DO NOT DO IT AND THEY WOUND ANIMALS IRRESPONSBLY.It is however OK for me to take risky shots at baboons cause they are an animal I do not care as much for." This is POS hypocrasy and does not even deserve the thoughtful responses that Ann and others have tried to give it. D99 needs to take his foot out his mouth and apologize to everyone for opening this post. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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