First off, posting this here since I think most people associate the backup iron sights with rifles destined for Africa and African hunting.

Aside from looking hell of cool, in the modern day (much improved scopes, extra rifles etcetera) how much need is there for backup iron sights?

I was just reading another thread and a person was ordering a rifle with both scope mounts and iron sights. I'm working on a project (LONG term due to $$) and will only have a scope on it although it is a big bore. I also noticed on the Legend rifles thread that they only come setup for scopes.

Further, most stockmakers I've heard on the topic say that there is always a compromise fitting a stock to somebody that is going to use both scope and open sights.

Since the scopes now let you hunt earlier and later due to light gathering and magnification, and they are so much more reliable, wouldn't it be more practical to have a second scope along with you?

How many of you have actually HAD TO take your scope off and use the irons?

Just curious.

Red
PS
I notice in the pics of Saeed's rifle, which has probably drawn as much blood as most others out there, has no irons on it.

All scopes/mounts eventually break, sooner on the big bores. If one takes only one rifle, then many would prefer one with iron sights.
I've had a scope break on a 458win while in Africa, but there was a back-up 416 with scope in camp that I used. If there had not been a back-up rifle there, I would have removed the scope and used the irons.

I guess yo don't need dem darn iron sights no mo cause them buffalo is bin modernized.

Can't help but think sooner or later the scope or mounts on a big boomer will get out of sorts. What are you going to do when the happens in the bush? I believe SOL fits nicely here.

My 416 has both, would not have it any other way.

Red,

I have open sights on two of my rifles. A 4-5-8 MARK X that I had completely reworked many years ago and a 375 Weatherby that I had Lon Paul build 3 years ago with every bell and whistle added. I've never used the open sights in the field in Africa nor ever felt the need to. I honestly think with good modern optics and a spare scope that you actually could take in the field with you that iron sights are not necessary. Serious elephant hunters might disagree but this is my opinion.

Mark

Consider the irons an option, not a back-up. I have good iron sights on my 416, with Talley detachable mounts. There are times when the irons will be your preferred system. I really didn't understand this until I did my first elephant hunt.

Got some with irons, some not. If they don't have irons-- I take an extra scope in rings ready to mount.

I have 2 low power variables for my 375 in Talley mounts plus the Talley peep. Probably overkill but I am not going all the way to Africa to use somebody else's rifle.

I shot my first deer in 1965 with an iron sighted .32 Spl, my first elk in 1966 with an iron sighted .30-40 Krag. Since then I have killed over 150 big game animals most of which were shot with scoped rifles. These included multiple hunts in Africa, Canada, Alaska, and several western states with many backpack hunts and over 20 years of horseback hunts where my rifle was carried in a leather saddle scabbard. That's many years of hard hunting.

In all those hunts, I have never had a scope or scope attachment malfunction. On a scoped rifle, I also like the look of a clean rifle barrel without iron sights. None of my rifles have both iron sights and a scope. I'll take my chances that my scope will work. It's a personal thing.

Generaly I see two places where irons are preferable. One, sorting out something that can kill you in the jess or pucker brush. Two, elephant at all times. I would have much prefered irons when I shot a charging leopard at five yards, however it worked out.

Dave

Need?
Since when has "need" had anything to do with sport hunting except in seeking to mollify a moderately pissed off spouse? .

See Chet, you're headed down a good path. since the stocks can't really be setup for both properly, and all that stuff costs good money.

So really what's needed is TWO purpose built rifles.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
See Chet, you're headed down a good path. since the stocks can't really be setup for both properly, and all that stuff costs good money.

So really what's needed is TWO purpose built rifles.

Red

And a spouse that likes to hunt!

More to the point - for me, irons shouldn't be viewed simply in light of the quality of optics but also where and what you are hunting.
Besides personal preference, irons become more relevant when the size of the game increases, the range decreases and the time,effort, and distance to repair/replace an optic is significant.
Too many variables to make a blanket call for everyone.

Chet has a good point, too many variables and just a personal preference. I have been fortunate to have never had a scope failure or dropped one out in the pucker brush a zillion miles from anywhere.

However, I also wouldn't travel half way around the world or north and south without iron sights on my Model 70's, all three of them. I might lose confidence in a scope that has been banged around, or I might use up way too much ammo resighting a spare, but I know where my iron sights hit. It would just be time to close the distance or know my limitations.

I recommend having iron sights, THAT ARE SIGHTED IN, on most all of your rifles.

I have several rifles that I have killed game with using the scope and the iron sights.

On rifles that I consider primarily scoped rifles, I still like to have iron sights, but even if I do or if I don't, I will have a second scope, sighted in, in rings, ready to install on the gun.

I consider the scope the weakest part of the "hunting rifle", so on ANY of my primary traveling hunting rifles I always have a spare scope.

For those of you tht have favorite hunting rifles that do not have iron sights...

And for those of you cannot see iron sights, and consider them useless for the tye of hunting you do...

Then equip your rifle with QUALITY quick detach scope mounts, and just have two scoes fitted.

If you primary scope is a high dollar Swaro, S&B, Zeiss, etc. there is nothing wrong with having your spare be a Leupold fixed 4X, as long as it is sighted in and ready to go.

Years ago I had open sights on my rifles. As my eyes deteriorated, and I got to rely on scopes more, I no longer have open sights on my rifles.

I have the same scopes on my 375/404 - Leupolds 2.5-8 - for so many years, and they have been so reliable.

They show the wear and tear of many hunts, and last year Walter was hell bent on replacing them.

I told him if he touched them, he would need a brain transpant!

He looked at me and said "Bloody hell, you mean it too!"

He was right.

I just got back from my first elephant hunt last week. I also hunted buffalo for the third time on this trip. Please keep in mind I am 30 years old and have decent eyesight and I can walk some-what long distances. But after my second buffalo and definitely after this hunt as long as I am fit and have good eyesight I will not hunt with scope for buffalo ever again. On the hunt I just returned from the furthest shot on buff was about 3 to 4 yards and the closest was about 18”. (The video I hope will be coming shortly) I shot one buffalo a couple of years ago with a scoped rifle and I just did not enjoy it as much. Sniping a buffalo at 70 yards with my scoped rifle on the second buffalo I hunted did not provide any challenge to the hunt for me. I felt like I simply had just “shot” a buffalo. Hunting with iron sites on buffalo I think will definitely limit your trophy potential and possibly success of the hunt, but at this stage of my hunting life I enjoy the experience and the hard work of getting close more than anything. I will give up inches of horn any day of the week for getting closer shot. As far as elephant is concerned as long as you have decent eyesight I can’t imagine hunting them with a scope.

Mac

2007 on a buffalo hunt in Zim I had a problem with the scope on my winchester model 70 in 375 h+h. I had to take the scope off and use the open sights. I ended up shooting my buffalo with the open sights.

For my DG rifles (elephant and buff)I look at a scope sight as the back up sight.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
First off, posting this here since I think most people associate the backup iron sights with rifles destined for Africa and African hunting.
Aside from looking hell of cool, in the modern day (much improved scopes, extra rifles etcetera) how much need is there for backup iron sights?

I think there is quite a lot of need for QUALITY iron sights on any hunting rifle! I, like many others will not own a big bore rifle that has no Iron sights.

quote:

I was just reading another thread and a person was ordering a rifle with both scope mounts and iron sights. I'm working on a project (LONG term due to $$) and will only have a scope on it although it is a big bore. I also noticed on the Legend rifles thread that they only come setup for scopes.

A person is allowed to have a custom rifle made any way he chooses, even a big bore with no iron sights! However simply because Legend will only make a rifle for scope sights, IMO that is a good reason to not buy a Legend rifle. D'Arcy Echols will not build a rifle with both irons, and scope either, and though his rifles are very well made,reliable and accurate the fact that he isn't willing is the reason I don't own a D'Arcy Echols rifle. When I buy a custom rifle, I decide what is the be on the rifle not the maker.

quote:

Further, most stockmakers I've heard on the topic say that there is always a compromise fitting a stock to somebody that is going to use both scope and open sights. Since the scopes now let you hunt earlier and later due to light gathering and magnification, and they are so much more reliable, wouldn't it be more practical to have a second scope along with you?

This is absolutely true there is no happy medium in the opinion of stock makers! However the first thing you need to decide which of the sighting systems will be the primary system, and which will be the back-up! By this I mean, on a double rifle the irons are primary, and the scope is a speciality sight. The rifle is carried mostly with the scope detached and in your day pack along on the spoor. If you spot the target you are trailing, and he is in bush where you must thread a bullet thorugh a hole in the thorn bush to your target, the scope cn be very quickly installed so you can see the little branches that are invisible over irons, and still make the shot without a deflection, and haveing to track a wounded lion of Buffalo. The alternitive is to pass the shot.

On a bolt rifle one usually has the scope as primary, and the irons as back-up. so the rifle is carried scoped, in QUALITY Quick-detach rings and bases, for the spooring. Now lets take elephant for instance! You follow him into thick jesse, and at 20 yds he turns to face you, and comes. The scope will let you have a scope full of grey wrinkeled skin with no way to pin point the right place to stick him for a charge stopping brain shot, a shot that is not easy even with iron sights, but imposible with a scope attached, and is nothing more than a guess. SO! what I'm saying when the tracks lead into the thick jesse, the scope can be removed, and handed to the tracker carrying you day pack!

The third thing is the spare scope or spare rifle idea! Where is that spare rifle when you are ten miles from the bakki? The spare scope can at least be easily taken along on the spoor, but if it isn't there and you have irons, no problem, and a spare scope doesn't take care of the close in lack of field of vision to make a percise bullet placement on a very large animal.
So you have you stock made perfect for the primary. If the be the scope, the the adjaustment in in the highth of the irons, and if it is the irons that are primary, then you mounthe th ccope as low as posible, and adjust the irons to take up the slack.

quote:

How many of you have actually HAD TO take your scope off and use the irons?

Just curious.
Red
PS
I notice in the pics of Saeed's rifle, which has probably drawn as much blood as most others out there, has no irons on it.

I remove or install my scopes as needed, and not only for damage, though that is agood reason to have both irons, and QUALITY qwick-detach scope. ……………………………Is there a need for iron sights on big-bore rifles?

The answer to that question is "YES"! Like Ray said in one of his posts, I would not own a big bore rifle that did not have good iron sights.

One example of this is a happening that I had in the Pueblo canyon at the foot of the Saddleback Mountain in West central New Mexico a few years back. I was hunting Muledeer with one of my all time favorite bolt rifles. It was a 1961 MCA Mannlicher Shoenauer rifle chambered for 243 win. The rifle was carrying a 2.5-7X40mm Weaver scope in G&H Quick Detach scope rings and mount. The rifle had it's factory iron sights on the barrel with the rear sight zeroed at 100 yds for the standing rear sight, with a flip-up that I cut for 200 yds.

On this trip I was hunting on foot from my camp on the Pueblo creek, five miles, as the crow flies, and 3000 feet below in altitude. I spotted a very fine Muley buck at around 500 yds distant bedded in the shade on the side of the hill, with totally open country between me and the deers comanding view. To get out of sight of the deer, I dropped down into the canyon just out of sight and started around an outcropping. I lost my ballance while holding my rifle in my canyon side hand. I was about to fall over the side, the rifles weight takeing me over. I let go of the rifle letting it fall over the side to regain my ballance.

The rifle fell about ten feet down onto a solid rock ledge. I made my way down to the rifle, with tears in my eyes. The scope had the objective lens bell bent down to touch the top of the barrel. The only other damage was the toe of the butt plate broke off, but the wood not damaged.

I eased back up to the edge of the canyon enough to see if the buck had spooked from the clatter of my rifle's trip down to the rocks. He was still there and didn't seem alerted in the least. I thought man it is a long way to camp for my spare rifle, and I couldn't get there and back before dark. Then I thought of the irons on the barrel. I did a quick check of the irons and they were undamaged. I loosened the levers on the G&H mount, and slipped the scope off the rifle, putting it in my day pack. The nearest I could get to the deer was about 220 yds without being in the open. I laid prone, with my day pack as a rest, and shot that deer dead in his bed with those irons. Since that time I have never owned a hunting rifle that was not fitted with open sights, whether it had a scope or not.

After all it is a personal choice, and may be done any way one chooses, but that is not what was asked! The question is is tere a good reason for irn sights on a big bore rifle, and my long winded answer could have been answered in one word, "YES" but you know I couldn't to that!

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