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Where, in your opinion, do the real stopping rifle calibers start? After a lot of reading and conversing I am of the opinion that the .458 Lott is the drawing line. That is to say that no one has anything but positive remarks regarding its effect on dangerous game. What are your thoughts? Thanks, jfm | ||
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I suppose it depends on what you're intending to stop. I have seen a 375 stop a buffalo (also a 458 wm) but if for elephant I dont know - probably a 500 NE. ALLEN W. JOHNSON - DRSS Into my heart on air that kills From yon far country blows: What are those blue remembered hills, What spires, what farms are those? That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again. A. E. Housman | |||
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While i certainly prefer the Lott to the 458WM, the latter has been used as a "stopping rifle" for the last 50 years. In my mind, 45 caliber is the minimum "stopping" caliber. | |||
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There is no such thing as a "stopping" rifle. You only stop a charging animal by destroying the central nervous system. Any rifle that can penetrate to achieve that is a "stopping" rifle. | |||
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As regards buffalo, there MAY not be any such thing as a "stopping rifle." I do not think that is true for lion and elephant however. | |||
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Stopping power is a colloquial term used to describe the ability of a firearm to cause a penetrating ballistic injury sufficient to incapacitate the target where it stands. Some sporting arms are also referred to as "stoppers" or "stopping rifles". These powerful calibers are often used by DG hunters (or their PHs) for stopping a charging animal like buffalo or elephant. If the shot is accurate enough to penetrate the brain it would clearly floor and instantly kill the animal. Should it miss the vital and intended target area, in most instances the impact would be sufficient to floor, divert or generally slow it down sufficiently for a following shot to be taken, hence the introduction and popularity of NE double rifles (.400 +) A shot to the leg of a charging buffalo will unlikely produce the desired effects. | |||
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I think I would include any rifle that fires a 400gr or heavier bullet at 2400fps or faster. Add the proper solids. The 416's come to mind, and the 404J. That said, when I finally made it to Zimbabwe to hunt buffalo I had a CZ in 450 Dakota, and my 550 Gibbs along for the show. Rich Buff Killer | |||
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Saeed hit the target on this one- if it stops the animal , it is a stopper. Is a .416 ,.470, or .500 a more comfortable choice for many? You bet. But if a .700 fails on a ele bull but a .375 brains him is the.375 better than the.700 ? Shot placement is everythingand a well placed.375 will stop anything on this planet if the shooter pops the brain. Dave Fulson | |||
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If "shot placement means everything" then there's a whole lot of people needlessly carrying heavy hardware. If, indeed, it means everything, then anything over a .375 is a waste. | |||
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Hi John I stand behind the statement, but FYI, my big guns are a .470 double, and a scoped .416. The topic was not what was BEST, but what was considered a Stopping rifle. Dave Fulson | |||
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When someone experiences a "he didn't stop" moment, the caliber / cartridge created next is intended to remedy the affront. 585 Nyati, 577 T-Rex, and so on came about because "dad gum it THIS will stop 'em!!!" IMHO there is no beginning point defined for stopping rifles that has stood time's test. It is subjective. _______________________ | |||
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(IMO) These things are pretty much impossible to define. Sure exact shot placement is vitally important but even with that, a real chargestopper is a calibre that puts an immediate end to proceedings every time. There's an immense difference (for example) in the way a big animal reacts to a shot or shots from a 375 compared to a 500. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I've seen Buff (again, for example) take 12+ shots from a rifle such as a 375, anyone of which, should have killed it, but none of which did......... the difference between the two aforementioned calibres in these situations is truly dramatic. Following that logic, a 375 to me at least, isn't a real chargestopper, whereas a 500 for example, most certainly is......... but even with that, only if the shot is placed in, or very near to the right place. One also needs to bear in mind that another very important factor in this, is the man behind the rifle........ Even the biggest rifle in the world won't stop a charge if the guy behind the rifle doesn't do his job correctly. | |||
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I agree with all the comments on shot placement being the true deciding factor in stopping a charge. However in my limited experience i feel a .450 calibre 500grain bullet is a good minimum. During the only true buffalo charge that i have been involved in, the buffalo was honed in on a guy standing off to one side of me, leaving me with a very oblique angle to shoot from. Through pure luck on my behalf i spined the buffalo with my .375H&H. Had i missed the spine it may as well have been a .243 in my hands. Having seen the visible "punch" effect of the larger calibres i truly believe that while they may not stop the charge completely they give you a larger margin for error when things arent laying in your favour. They "rock" the animals more and just may buy you a precious second or 2 that may save your or someone else's life. | |||
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Don;t know where it starts but it should end with a good bullet in the brain or spine | |||
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Any "gun" that can penetrate the skull to the brain cn be a "stopping rifle", as IMHO the only SURE stop is a brain hit. Body hits,with even the biggest rifle may or may not work. However, for me, I feel comfortable with my 450/400 double rifle, as a stopper. No doubt my 450 No2 is a little bigger hammer, and a 500 a little bigger hammer still, etc... I think that a 450/400 well handled will do as good a job as anything... And a 600 with a non brain hit may not help you at all, so I recommend you use the biggest rifle that you can shoot and handle REALLY WELL, with the proper bullets. I am not afraid to hunt cape buff and elephants with my 9,3x74R, but I do consider it [and the 375 H&H] light for the job. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Historically a stopping caliber starts with a 45 caliber and up with at least 5,000 ft pounds of energy. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Zims Ian Naycens used a 450#2 hunting eles and later a 450 3 1/4... He considered a 404 light for stopping charging eles... I stopped a black mamba with a 450#2... Mike | |||
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I ONCE tride to have this same discussion on the Alaska Outdoor Forum. The concensus was the .30-06 and .45-70 were God's gift for everything, what works for African game has no bearing on Alaskan game, and unless you've shot a pile of brown bears or lived in Alaska your whole life your oppinion doesn't count.  I left the discussion.  Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Etymology: Middle English stoppen, from Old English -stoppian, from Vulgar Latin *stuppare to stop with tow, from Latin stuppa tow, from Greek styppē Date: 13th century 6 a: to arrest the progress or motion of : cause to halt b: PARRY c: to check by means of a weapon : BRING DOWN, KILL A stopping rifle by definition is one which will halt the forward motion of one's target WITHOUT a CNS shot. A .375 would therefore be an adequate stopping rifle if your quarry were Gopher or Baboon or possibly Swine. | |||
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As far as I'm concerned Steve's post above says it all! If I were picking a dedicated stopping rifle it would be a 500NE double rifle! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Here's how I see it. A CNS hit is the easy case. (A .22 is a stopping rifle if the shooter can make a CNS hit with it! Hah!) A stopping rifle is useful in cases of less than perfect shooting. In other words, the concept of a stopper accepts as a premise that a CNS hit cannot or will not be achieved under some circumstances in the field. To err is human and hunters are no exception to that rule. The rationale for using a stopper is predicated on that fact. So, a "stopper" has come to mean a rifle that is big and powerful enough that it can turn or stop a charging elephant or Cape buffalo (or rhino, in the old days) with a hard but non-CNS hit. Not 100% of the time, to be sure, but with some appreciable degree of reliability. In the experience of hundreds if not thousands of hunters in Africa over the past 100 years or so - in other words, based on empirical data - a stopping rifle has come to be defined as a rifle of .450 caliber or more, firing a 480 grain or heavier bullet, at a velocity of at least 2,100-2,150 fps. (It goes without saying that a stopping rifle is no good if the hunter can't handle the recoil and shoot it well. If the hunter can't master a stopping rifle, then it will be useless to him. So let's assume that the hunter can shoot it and avoid the distraction of going down that road.) In advocating the use of a stopping rifle, no one argues that a hunter should not aim for the brain or spine to stop a charge. Of course he should - whenever that shot is possible. But under circumstances when hunters miss the brain or spine, but manage to deliver a solid non-CNS hit with a stopping rifle, the historical record shows that the stopping rifle can provide the hunter with some margin, some forgiveness of error. Again, not all the time, but often enough that such rifles have come to be called stoppers. On the other hand, lesser calibers - or non-stoppers, if you will - have been found lacking. Without perfection in placing the shot, they have proven less reliable in turning or bringing down a charging elephant, buff or rhino. There is enough evidence in the record to support this view that I believe it. Besides, it's just common sense, and I also believe in common sense. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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African animals are tenatious animals and can absorb large amounts of foot pounds of power. To quote Taylor: "The misconception that a large caliber rifle will poll-ax any animal out flat", is what Taylor terms, "a dangerous illusion. In the end the biggest bullet in the world will not compensate for poor shooting. When the shooting is over and the animal is still on his feet, all the hunter can do is reload and shoot again!" Still if I were going to pick a dedicated stopping rifle, as I said earlier it would be a 500NE double rifle, and practice till I could hit a humming bird in flight! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Remember guys we hunters only have to shoot the animals... The Ph has to stop them...   Mike  | |||
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Me and John Taylor: 400 grs. and 5000 ft-lbs. God Bless Us Both, and John Wayne. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Guys with the most experience now days, in terms of both shooting dangerous game and seeing even more shot, P.H.,s, eventually end up with something pretty big. That should tell you something. But mostly it is a confidence thing. In the days of unlimited ivory hunting, weapons of all sizes were used. Turn of the last century military rifles all used long, heavy for caliber round nosed fmj bullets that could reliably penetrate a jumbo skull. Doubles were expensive then too, especially when you were trying to show a profit. Later, guys like Wally Johnson and Harry Manners used 375's and never felt they were under gunned. Confidence. Gpopper | |||
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And John Talylor is full of it too with his Taylor Knockdown Value.  | |||
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You can try to give some sort of implied knowing credit to those that used the cheapest rifle they can find but I suspect it should end there. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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X2. And the distinction between stopping rifles and others was long ago determined to be found between the non stoppers the 450/400 and 404J, 400grs @ ~2150fps, and the stoppers, the various 450NE's, 480grs @ ~2100fps. Recall that very few vintage 416R's were ever built let alone saw significant use in Africa. Stopper? Buzz Charlton, who has used one for many, many elephants doesn't think so. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Definately a minority opinion. But then again that doesn't automaticly make it wrong just probably wrong. 465H&H | |||
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It depends on what we are trying to stop. Last May I went on a domestic disturbance call and when I entered the house the size of the woman there stopped me dead in my tracks. Sometimes they don't even need a gun. On big game I prefer a 416 Rigby on up. You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Don't wait, go now. Savannah Safaris Namibia Otjitambi Trails & Safaris DRSS NRA SCI DSC TSRA TMPA | |||
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There are many good calibers available that will kill readily but in your question STOP is the key or operative word. STOPPING rifles start at .500 and go up in caliber from there. The display of PURE POWER is nothing short of AWESOME ! 1 JOHN 3:18 | |||
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I wholeheartedly agree! I once shot a cow ele square between the eyes - missed the brain! She looked at me like "did you just shoot me?" Stunned (me)I came to my senses, remembered my second barrel and geve her one where she needed it ad down she came....This my friends was with a .600 NE!!! I believe it was Taylor who wrote that if you hit an ele anywhere in the head with a .600 it will go down thus enabling afinishing shot if needed -something along that line. So much for that knock-down BS! Shot placement and a good dose of foot pound energy are the key to "stopping" an animal coming in! IMNHO!!! JW | |||
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You believe wrong.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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So what I'm gathering is that .458 caliber and above are really what are thought to be stopping calibers. The .410 /.416 calibers are still a little small in many of your opinions. The reason I ask is that I may have the chance at a buffalo hunt in just over a year. I already own a .375 H&H I am proficient with but this is an excuse to buy another rifle. I used to own a Winchester model 70 in .416 Remington that beat me up (bad rifle fit maybe) so I sold it and have recently been shooting my brother's Ruger # 1 in 450/.400 (not a stopper)that is relatively pleasant to control. My goal is to find something bigger than the .375 H&H that is considered a stopper yet not beat me up in the process. Maybe I'm dreaming but I thought I'd ask around to see if anyone knew of a such a cartridge. Thanks, jfm | |||
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The defintion of a stopping rifle is ANY rifle that will stop a charge. I will stick with 375/404. I know what it will do as long as I do my part. It makes no difference how large a caliber you use, if you shoot a charging animal in the wrong place, you are not going to stop him. | |||
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Saeed, as always, I value your response and I believe that what you say is true. I know the .375 H&H has the penetration to reach the brain on any animal and would therefore be considered adequate to do the job, however, I do not have the experience you do and feel that I must compensate with a larger caliber rifle. Not to mention the fact that I just want a new rifle. I'm still thinking .458 Lott in a well fitted rifle stock. Hopefully, with practice, I can become proficient with a rifle with this kind of power by the time I go hunting. Thanks again for your response Saeed and all others. I always appreciate your experience and willingness to share the knowledge that comes with it. jfm | |||
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Samuel Bakers 8 Bore muzzle loader that thing was amazing !!! a real stopper if there ever was one ! | |||
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Will, you can denigrate my interpretation of what I relayed. The fact of the matter was Harry Manners and Wally Johnson and probably a hell of a lot of guys we will never here of such as game department staff and crop protecters never posted on sights like this, they were to busy hunting. That said, a stopper, is and always should be interpreted as a big bore, 45+, either double or bolt. Gpopper | |||
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And I remember Samuel baker shooting an elephant 28 times with that rifle too! One can never have too many rifles - I have a few hundreds right here. From 17 to 700 caliber. But, I only use one rifle for all the large dangerous game I hunt. And it is a 375. I know, many consider it a minimum, but from what I have seen, with people shooting rifles up to the 577 T.Rex, the 375 kills them just as dead. | |||
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