quote:

I will stick with 375/404

Hopefully you never get jumped by a hungry Brown Bear or Tiger at 10 yards with that pop-gun ... those silly horned cows you're always shooting don't have teeth and run away most of the time ...

I run much faster than Walter

I hope they are braver than the hyaenas, who refused to eat him!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It makes no difference how large a caliber you use, if you shoot a charging animal in the wrong place, you are not going to stop him.

That's horse pooh!

The fact that eles in particular can be turned or dropped with a less than perfect shot - and the angle to the brain is not always availble anyway - is why the term "stopping rifle" exists!

BTW, I've stopped two eles with less than perfect brain shots, both at about seven yards, both coming hard and fast.

JPK

Just about any caliber that has enough penetration to reach the brain of an elephant can stop it. But a stopping rifle has to do it a high enough percentage of the time if the bullet misses the brain to give confidence in its use. unfortunately. we do not have hard data on what those percentages are for the various calibers. From a long history of use, it is generally acceapted that you need a 458 or larger caliber bullet that weighs at least 480 grains and travelling at over 2,000 fps to reach that percentage.

465H&H

I got a 460 G&A.. A 500 grain bullet traveling 2378 f/s should be about right

M

You believe wrong.

Will....Don't think so...


"But the 900 gr bullet in the head, even if it missed the brain by a considerable amount, would knock the Elephant down and out-unconscious"...* page 59, paragraph 2, lines 2-4, "African Rifles & Cartridges", Taylor



JW

I thought I would jump in again. During the last couple of years of very intensive elephant hunting all across Africa,with out team filming several dozen bull elephant being shot from different angles and with a wide variety of calibers I, we(Boddington, Carter Fulson, and Danklef have had our eyes opened quite a bit as to the "stopping power" of the big bores. We have had several of the big boys on the scene .500, .577 .600 and .700 and all have been used on frontal brain shots on bulls from Tanzania to Botswana. Each of the above calibers was filmed on frontal brain shots on elephant bulls, several with some of them, that missed the brain. Some missed by less than six inches. The only''stopping" I saw was a bunch of startled bulls that stopped standing around and ran like hell for cover. I'm talking Kentucky Derby type running. No dropping to shock, no staggering around, no back end sitting down, I mean they spun the tires leaving. Have bulls been knocked out by close misses? I am sure they have, but I am here to tell you that I am no longer willing to believe in the ability, or better said, Probability that your, or my, big heavy will knock down a bull, especially a pissed off and incoming bull with "bullet shock" that missed the brain. Hunting always has exceptions, and I am not saying that it never happens, but I am saying that our team has spent one hell of a lot of time hunting Ele bulls and the film, of which I have plenty, does not lie. If you have confidence that your big hitter will knock a incoming bull down with"the'ol somewhere in the face shot"then I hope you have your affairs in order. I know I now place a lot more priority in placement than I do Knock out value. Like your "willy", bigger is only better if you know how to use it

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I thought I would jump in again. During the last couple of years of very intensive elephant hunting all across Africa,with out team filming several dozen bull elephant being shot from different angles and with a wide variety of calibers I, we(Boddington, Carter Fulson, and Danklef have had our eyes opened quite a bit as to the "stopping power" of the big bores. We have had several of the big boys on the scene .500, .577 .600 and .700 and all have been used on frontal brain shots on bulls from Tanzania to Botswana. Each of the above calibers was filmed on frontal brain shots on elephant bulls, several with some of them, that missed the brain. Some missed by less than six inches. The only''stopping" I saw was a bunch of startled bulls that stopped standing around and ran like hell for cover. I'm talking Kentucky Derby type running. No dropping to shock, no staggering around, no back end sitting down, I mean they spun the tires leaving. Have bulls been knocked out by close misses? I am sure they have, but I am here to tell you that I am no longer willing to believe in the ability, or better said, Probability that your, or my, big heavy will knock down a bull, especially a pissed off and incoming bull with "bullet shock" that missed the brain. Hunting always has exceptions, and I am not saying that it never happens, but I am saying that our team has spent one hell of a lot of time hunting Ele bulls and the film, of which I have plenty, does not lie. If you have confidence that your big hitter will knock a incoming bull down with"the'ol somewhere in the face shot"then I hope you have your affairs in order. I know I now place a lot more priority in placement than I do Knock out value. Like your "willy", bigger is only better if you know how to use it

Dave,

Now you have gone and done it!

You will never be forgiven for stating such facts.

RPG's anyone???

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:

quote:

And John Talylor is full of it too with his Taylor Knockdown Value.

I wholeheartedly agree!

I once shot a cow ele square between the eyes - missed the brain! She looked at me like "did you just shoot me?" Stunned (me)I came to my senses, remembered my second barrel and geve her one where she needed it ad down she came....This my friends was with a .600 NE!!! I believe it was Taylor who wrote that if you hit an ele anywhere in the head with a .600 it will go down thus enabling afinishing shot if needed -something along that line. So much for that knock-down BS!

Shot placement and a good dose of foot pound energy are the key to "stopping" an animal coming in!

IMNHO!!!

JW

Personally I don't believe any caliber less than a 16" shore battery will absolutely knock any large animal down every time, no matter where it is hit.

It is true that nobody will hit the right spot every time, but that is why most dangerous game rifle have more than one barrel, or a magazine full of cartridges. Still if you place a good bullet in the right place the animal is down, no matter the size. It would be foolish to say that because a 243 Win with a solid, if placed properly will knock down just about anything we are likely to see in the bush, makes it a STOPPER, which is a nebulous word anyway, and really hase no meaning!

IMO opinion most will declare the starting point at .450 caliber, but I don't believe that is high enough if you want close to a 100% effect. I would start at the .500 level, and go no higher. Because I believe even at the .500 level most will not be able to shoot it as well as something smaller. Below the .450 level, the positive efectiveness starts to slide below the .400 level. However it is my opinion, that what the .400s lack in power, they gain in shootability, and so as well do the .450s gain in shootability over the .500 class.

The assigning of stopping caliber should also include the skill of the shooter. So, to say ansolutely that anyone shooting a .400, .450, 470, or .500 the caliber is still a stopping rifle, is the turd floating in the punch bowl, and very few should be willing to take a drink from that bowl.

I think all this subject matter here is based mainly on the elephant, and as many have said the start of the stopping calibers starts very low, depending on what you are trying to stop. Just like hunting any animal you should choose the right rifle, and caliber for that animal. Since an elephant is not the same as an Impala, the proper rifle/caliber combination is vastly different. This also applies between the Cape Buffalo , and the elephant.

The words "stopping rifle" really mean a veriety of different rifles/calibers, and shooters. The shooter, and caliber are what makes a certain caliber a stopper or not!

I think there is a big pile of "WHAT I LIKE" spouted in debates like this one, and I simply do not believe any caliber is a stopper without a shooter who can use the caliber to it's potentual. Calibers, and rifle types do not kill animals, shooters do!

One example: I have seen Saeed, and NE 450 No2 shoot and I would not be afraid to be backed up by either with Saeed's 404/375, or NE 450No2's 450/400NE. In that case the other half of the stopping equation is present, the shooter. The rifle/caliber are the other half of the STOPPING! When standing alone my preference would be a .500NE double rifle, but I'm under no illusion that the .500NE is 100% stopper, nor is any other rifle fired from the shoulder!

This is a discussion that has become heated on every website on the internet, and around every campfire ever since fire arms were first used on dangerous game. This thread will not solve anything, it only supplies a vinue for folks to vent, nothing more, because the preconcieved notions will not change!

You'll have completely missed the answer. Take away the charger's credit card and use a pair of shears not scissors!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I thought I would jump in again. During the last couple of years of very intensive elephant hunting all across Africa,with out team filming several dozen bull elephant being shot from different angles and with a wide variety of calibers I, we(Boddington, Carter Fulson, and Danklef have had our eyes opened quite a bit as to the "stopping power" of the big bores. We have had several of the big boys on the scene .500, .577 .600 and .700 and all have been used on frontal brain shots on bulls from Tanzania to Botswana. Each of the above calibers was filmed on frontal brain shots on elephant bulls, several with some of them, that missed the brain. Some missed by less than six inches. The only''stopping" I saw was a bunch of startled bulls that stopped standing around and ran like hell for cover. I'm talking Kentucky Derby type running. No dropping to shock, no staggering around, no back end sitting down, I mean they spun the tires leaving. Have bulls been knocked out by close misses? I am sure they have, but I am here to tell you that I am no longer willing to believe in the ability, or better said, Probability that your, or my, big heavy will knock down a bull, especially a pissed off and incoming bull with "bullet shock" that missed the brain. Hunting always has exceptions, and I am not saying that it never happens, but I am saying that our team has spent one hell of a lot of time hunting Ele bulls and the film, of which I have plenty, does not lie. If you have confidence that your big hitter will knock a incoming bull down with"the'ol somewhere in the face shot"then I hope you have your affairs in order. I know I now place a lot more priority in placement than I do Knock out value. Like your "willy", bigger is only better if you know how to use it

Dave, all relevant experience and data must be factored into anyone's opinion, if it is to be valid, and thanks for posting yours.

Still, your experience on elephant, when compared with data reflected in the elephant hunting literature of the past 100+ years, is statistically insignificant.

Thre are enough cases on record showing that a stopping rifle can turn or stop a charge with a non-CNS hit that I am a believer in stopping rifles. Again, they don't always get it done, maybe not even half the time, but certainly sometimes.

And if and when I have to face the charge of a bull elephant, I want that edge, no matter how slight it may be.

At the risk of boring people, I will re-iterate a couple of things, since these discussions are always thrown off the rails by people who persist in missing the point no matter how many times it is made.

There is no substitute for shot placement, and a stopping rifle is no good at all in the hands of someone who can't shoot it straight.

MacD37, I agree it's primarily the elephant we're talking about, and I generally agree with your point about the .500 - that's what I use, after all.

Point taken and agreed with. I was only stating my , our, experience over the years I have been in the game. As client hunters, not professional hunters and, or, culling agents,our combined experience is never going to compare with the boys of yesteryear. BUT, experience is experience ,whether 1909 or 2009. My point is that bullet placement, from a caliber big enough to drive a bullet to the brain from any angle, is more important than a dinosaur stopper in the hands of a guy that thinks close is good enough.
Lots of relevant opinions on this subject,mine no more important than the next,but it is based on a lot of ele hunting and brain shot observation over the last few years. But, with that said, I too feel more at home staring down the barrel of something bigger than.375 when the next shot may determine if you live or die.

Dave,

I watched your DVD just the other day. In several cases elephants were knocked down but weren't killed with the frontal brain shot. It was the follow up shot or shots that killed the elephant. What can happen is that the animal is knocked down wwith the first shot, a follow up shot is given and the PH congratulates the client on a great frontal shot. The client never notices that the tell tale leg kick doesn't start until after the follow up shot. Craig and I have had this discussion by e-mail and we both wonder why I have had so much better success with frontal shots then he has. Out of quite a few killed with frontal or side brain shots I have had only one turn and run off. That one was hit about 3" too high to find the brain. We did recover it though. I have personally taken or seen others take elephants that were knocked down, knocked out or killed in 13 out of 14 cvases using brain shots. It has been my experience that they are quite easy to knock down or down and out with frontal shots. In two cases, a charging cow was stopped by either a 450/400 or 375H&H. Both were about 6 yards away when stopped. I still don't know why your and Craig's experience is so much different than mine.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I run much faster than Walter

I hope they are braver than the hyaenas, who refused to eat him!

Legend has it that ancient Europeans rarely bathed so as to ward off Bears and Wolves with a powerful repellent odor ..... some quasi-modern Europeans still use this technique mostly as a method of thinning the que at museums and other tourist laden destinatons .....

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Dave,

I watched your DVD just the other day. In several cases elephants were knocked down but weren't killed with the frontal brain shot. It was the follow up shot or shots that killed the elephant. What can happen is that the animal is knocked down wwith the first shot, a follow up shot is given and the PH congratulates the client on a great frontal shot. The client never notices that the tell tale leg kick doesn't start until after the follow up shot. Craig and I have had this discussion by e-mail and we both wonder why I have had so much better success with frontal shots then he has. Out of quite a few killed with frontal or side brain shots I have had only one turn and run off. That one was hit about 3" too high to find the brain. We did recover it though. I have personally taken or seen others take elephants that were knocked down, knocked out or killed in 13 out of 14 cvases using brain shots. It has been my experience that they are quite easy to knock down or down and out with frontal shots. In two cases, a charging cow was stopped by either a 450/400 or 375H&H. Both were about 6 yards away when stopped. I still don't know why your and Craig's experience is so much different than mine.

465H&H

As 465H&H and I have discussed, my own experience lies somewhere between his and Craig's, but closer to his than Craig's, with quite a few eles knocked down or out with imperfect brain shots, almost all frontals. Bulls are a heck of a lot more resistant to any knock down or knock out effect, that is clear, but they are not imune. More than half of those knocked down or out elephants are on film!

Moreover, I have STOPPED two charges at seven yards with frontal shots that didn't even drop the eles, and each of those is on film too!

JPK

Whats the point of a 375/404 ? why not have a 404 and be done with it ! the 375 H H looks mousey even next to a 404

This conversation reminds of what I teach my students self defense seminars. Nothing EVER works all the time. And don't ever count on any technique, strike, blow, bullet, bat, spray, taser, stun gun or anything else to work when you need it to.

The best you can do is fight as hard as can don't ever give up and keep fighting until your threat is neutralized or you have enough room to get yourself out of there.
Exactly the same can be said for a DG encounter of the worst kind keep shooting until it the critter is down or until you can get yourself out of there to reload and try again later. It doesn't matter what you are shooting.

Of course it doesn't hurt to get yourself a suitably large stick and learn how to use it as best you can.

Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount, and a 375 H&H bullet well placed is far better than any larger caliber that isn't. My take is use the largest caliber you can shoot well and are willing to practice with. That for me means at least 300 to 500 rounds a year with each rifle. For handguns, a mininum of 1000 rounds a year.

Chuck

Wow, an AR thread wherein everybody keeps relatively cool and fact oriented...

...More, more!!!

In all honesty despite the merits of other calibers a 500 bore is what you need and all you need.I think it is fair to say the hunting literature supports my view.
You have to see the effect of a 570gn bullet on an elephant to appreciate how much it differs from lesser rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

My 500 Jeffery, "first light" for it will be at the range tomorrow ...





Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
My 500 Jeffery, "first light" for it will be at the range tomorrow ...





Chuck

Wow, that's beautiful, Chuck!

I originally stated that "stopping rifles" start at .500 cal. and I still feel that way. Part of the discussion and understanding or misunderstanding is the definition of "stopping rifle". I adhear to the school that this is in the sense of a "Resolution" or end i.e. what the PH is charged to do-no pun intended but true in many of these cases.

Next I think it is important to state that shot placement is a given; no matter what you or anyone else is shooting the bullet has to be "placed" proberly. Now, if the bullet cartridge combination has the power to push that bullet to the vitals to do sufficient damage to STOP the animal instantly, is quite another matter.

Dave Fulson and 465 H&H have added some very good facts to this discussion. I think it is also important to consider the fact that the 700 Nitro was designed after an upscaled 577 and not the 600, especially when it came to the bullet shape as it was felt the blunt bullet of the 600 did not penetrate as well. I have also heard this from a friend who is an old elephant hunter from the '60's and 70's in Sudan and Kenya and he has the same opinion about the penetration of the 577 being much better than the 600 and there is no practical need for the 700 in his opinion.

When we talk about STOPPING, penetration has to be part of the consideration. I would say a person may be better off with a 416 Rigby and a great solid that the person with a 600 and a great solid. Harry Selby and others can certainly speak to this better than I but the stories have been told.

Another important FACE that has been brought up in a round about way is the person "driving"! We know 375's were used on many dangerous game animals with great success but with some failures. We all know about the bigger 458 and it's load problems and the Jack Lott incident which today gives us the 458 Lott and maybe when it is not necessary with the modern powders and bullets the 458 Win Mag is now what it was originally intended to be.

I personally do not think any one group-all inclusive-can be deemed OK due to the variables. But I think it is possible to say that a STOPPING RIFLE Cartridge, with x,y,z, qualities and IN THE HANDS OF A CALM AND COMPETENT SHOT will qualify.

I forgot to add that I will stick with my 416 Rigby in Dakota 76 African and 505 Gibbs in a GMR rifle, although I may use a 600 grain Woodleigh in the Gibbs I'm personally OK with these cartridges, Rigby will work in a pinch if you are hunting something else and the 505 anyday any time. You just hope you have a solid, in the chamber, when you need it.

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Kibokolambogo,

Which portion, and why? Have you read Ron Thomson's book? (Mahahoboh is the book in which this incident is described.)

If you haven't read it, you ought to, good read. And he descibes killing the bull with an axe and a knife for fear of encountering the wrath of Bruce Austin, his boss and Wankie (Hwange) region Ranger in Charge.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
..A stopping rifle by definition is one which will halt the forward motion of one's target WITHOUT a CNS shot.

A .375 would therefore be an adequate stopping rifle if your quarry were Gopher or Baboon or possibly Swine.

Ive regularly seen a faster stepping 130cc.270win stop hogs quicker than a humpTydumpTy .375H&H...
..and even faster stepping combos like 95gnHv6.5/06 no less effective or consistent quick hog killers than 130cc.270cal...

Micro species;...I dont feel a .300weatherby would effect an more effective kill on little fury varmints that an already overgunned fast stepping 70g.240wm...and it would sure be easier to place ones shot.

Larger species;... PH Graham Williams who guides on asiatic Buff, is convinced .500cal has noticably greater effect than .338-.375 bore.....but who cares,
Im more interested in what the one-buff-wonder hunters have to say....

A question has been asked before;
-how much does the larger bore allow shot placement to stray and still effect a good quick kill?...and can folks properly,consistently place & handle all the extra dia.& power they claim to have advantage with?..im convinced a good # of people have guns with power they cant properly handle/utilize.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Kibokolambogo,

Which portion, and why? Have you read Ron Thomson's book? (Mahahoboh is the book in which this incident is described.)

If you haven't read it, you ought to, good read. And he descibes killing the bull with an axe and a knife for fear of encountering the wrath of Bruce Austin, his boss and Wankie (Hwange) region Ranger in Charge.

JPK

Why would he encounter the wrath of Austin if he had done otherwise?

quote:

convinced a good # of people have guns with power they cant properly handle/utilize

Like any other endeavor - the means can become the end ... good fresh topic ...

Saeed, I have seen the vid of people shooting the T REX and it sure looked like a stopper to me. How many came back for a second shot.

Humor aside I think the concept of bullet construction, placement then caliber has the things in the right order.

Von Gruff.

quote:

The client never notices that the tell tale leg kick doesn't start until after the follow up shot.

465H&H,

Ain't that the truth! I've had guys on this forum swear they had killed elephant from brain shots, but the video clearly shows that they are not dead. Oh, my aching butt!!

The PH: "Great shot. Give him a couple more just to be sure."

I think that they have to memorize that phrase for their full license exam.

I just don't understand why this is a mystery. Dead is dead. When an elephant looks like he has been knocked out, it has been knocked out and is not dead!!

And shooting at undisturbed bulls, the first thing they will do is turn and high tail it. You gotta miss the brain by a bunch for that to happen (with a big gun).

I'm sorry, but it pains my heart to read some of the crap written about brain shots and dead elephants!!

quote:

During the last couple of years of very intensive elephant hunting all across Africa

Now I know where that expression "Life is not fair" came from!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mortician:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Kibokolambogo,

Which portion, and why? Have you read Ron Thomson's book? (Mahahoboh is the book in which this incident is described.)

If you haven't read it, you ought to, good read. And he descibes killing the bull with an axe and a knife for fear of encountering the wrath of Bruce Austin, his boss and Wankie (Hwange) region Ranger in Charge.

JPK

Why would he encounter the wrath of Austin if he had done otherwise?

Thomson's brain shot with his last round of ammo dropped the bull but did not kill it, it still had eye reaction to the touch. If he had not killed it in some way it would have revived and escaped. Loosing a wounded elephant was apparently a mortal sin in Bruce Austen's eyes.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

A question has been asked before;
-how much does the larger bore allow shot placement to stray and still effect a good quick kill?...and can folks properly,consistently place & handle all the extra dia.& power they claim to have advantage with?..im convinced a good # of people have guns with power they cant properly handle/utilize.

The answer to the first Q is variable, some eles drop like stones with a relatively close miss, some do not with apparently similar shots from similar rifles. The ones that drop allow an easy killing second shot. In fact, the greater the effect of the first shot, as far a causing the elephant to drop or fall or stumble or sit on its rear end, the easier the second shot to kill it.

Dropping is not stopping, it is more. Stopping an elephant charge requires turning the elephant or dropping it or killing it outright. Turning them is is enough to stop them.

While there may be a lot of hunters using more rifle than they can shoot well, that ain't the rifles' fault! With proper practice, one can become accustomed to stout recoil, but it takes effort and perserverance.

If you are going to be hunting a lot of elephants you simply need to become accustomed to stout recoil. And it ain't a bad idea even if you are only going to hunt one in your lifetime.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Mortician:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Kibokolambogo,

Which portion, and why? Have you read Ron Thomson's book? (Mahahoboh is the book in which this incident is described.)

If you haven't read it, you ought to, good read. And he descibes killing the bull with an axe and a knife for fear of encountering the wrath of Bruce Austin, his boss and Wankie (Hwange) region Ranger in Charge.

JPK

Why would he encounter the wrath of Austin if he had done otherwise?

Thomson's brain shot with his last round of ammo dropped the bull but did not kill it, it still had eye reaction to the touch. If he had not killed it in some way it would have revived and escaped. Loosing a wounded elephant was apparently a mortal sin in Bruce Austen's eyes.

JPK

Ah !....the Axe was not mentioned in the closing sentence....only the knife.
I could accept that by using the axe (to the back of the skull) he will have eventually reached the brain and killed it.
Thomson can write what he likes but I for one am not going to swallow the knife bit on its own.
Ever tried cutting through elephant hide with a knife?

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Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

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Originally posted by JPK:

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Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Don't laugh, he wasn't using a knife we normally use.

He use a STOPPING knife to finish off that elephant

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He use a STOPPING knife to finish off that elephant clap

Saeed,

You are just a damn trouble maker!

Re: sToPPinG KNiFe.....ToooooooooooFunny!!!!!!....