quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Don't laugh, he wasn't using a knife we normally use.

He use a STOPPING knife to finish off that elephant

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I ONCE tride to have this same discussion on the Alaska Outdoor Forum. The concensus was the .30-06 and .45-70 were God's gift for everything, what works for African game has no bearing on Alaskan game, and unless you've shot a pile of brown bears or lived in Alaska your whole life your oppinion doesn't count. I left the discussion.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Dave,

I watched your DVD just the other day. In several cases elephants were knocked down but weren't killed with the frontal brain shot. It was the follow up shot or shots that killed the elephant. What can happen is that the animal is knocked down wwith the first shot, a follow up shot is given and the PH congratulates the client on a great frontal shot. The client never notices that the tell tale leg kick doesn't start until after the follow up shot. Craig and I have had this discussion by e-mail and we both wonder why I have had so much better success with frontal shots then he has. Out of quite a few killed with frontal or side brain shots I have had only one turn and run off. That one was hit about 3" too high to find the brain. We did recover it though. I have personally taken or seen others take elephants that were knocked down, knocked out or killed in 13 out of 14 cvases using brain shots. It has been my experience that they are quite easy to knock down or down and out with frontal shots. In two cases, a charging cow was stopped by either a 450/400 or 375H&H. Both were about 6 yards away when stopped. I still don't know why your and Craig's experience is so much different than mine.

465H&H

quote:

Then there is the bullet integrity issue .. Mac,s elephant that just looked at him after he shot it , did he dissect the skull to see what happened to the bullet .. Is he sure the bullet was going it,s spec velocity , It was quite a discovery that post WWII.600 Nitro ammo loaded by Kynoch had some if not all poorly constructed bullets .or was it off by a thousand fps. .. There are so many variables

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Mortician:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Kibokolambogo,

Which portion, and why? Have you read Ron Thomson's book? (Mahahoboh is the book in which this incident is described.)

If you haven't read it, you ought to, good read. And he descibes killing the bull with an axe and a knife for fear of encountering the wrath of Bruce Austin, his boss and Wankie (Hwange) region Ranger in Charge.

JPK

Why would he encounter the wrath of Austin if he had done otherwise?

Thomson's brain shot with his last round of ammo dropped the bull but did not kill it, it still had eye reaction to the touch. If he had not killed it in some way it would have revived and escaped. Loosing a wounded elephant was apparently a mortal sin in Bruce Austen's eyes.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Mortician:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Not all of us, myself especially, can shoot like Saeed (rumor has it, he's an Olympic class rifle shot). Of course shot placement is paramount,...

What some overlook is that a world champion shooter becomes world champion by missing one shot fewer than the second best shooter in the world.

No one is ever going to be perfect, and a stopping rifle is for that inevitable moment, when a brain or other CNS shot is either unavalible or when the hunter misses it.

Even the greats missed. I was rereading Ron Thomson's book (Ron Thomson = ~4,000 elephants)and he mentions, with favor, killing 23 elephants with 34 rounds of ammunition. That works out to 67.6% success with his brain shots - and in the episode he relates, after dropping a bull with his last round, he needed to kill it with a knife before it awoke from being knocked out.

JPK

I would take the closing sentence with a pinch of salt.

Kibokolambogo,

Which portion, and why? Have you read Ron Thomson's book? (Mahahoboh is the book in which this incident is described.)

If you haven't read it, you ought to, good read. And he descibes killing the bull with an axe and a knife for fear of encountering the wrath of Bruce Austin, his boss and Wankie (Hwange) region Ranger in Charge.

JPK

Why would he encounter the wrath of Austin if he had done otherwise?

Thomson's brain shot with his last round of ammo dropped the bull but did not kill it, it still had eye reaction to the touch. If he had not killed it in some way it would have revived and escaped. Loosing a wounded elephant was apparently a mortal sin in Bruce Austen's eyes.

JPK

Ah !....the Axe was not mentioned in the closing sentence....only the knife.
I could accept that by using the axe (to the back of the skull) he will have eventually reached the brain and killed it.
Thomson can write what he likes but I for one am not going to swallow the knife bit on its own.
Ever tried cutting through elephant hide with a knife?

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
If your 500 Bullets are manufactured by Michelin or Goodyear that might be a problem ... you aren't suggesting the 375 UAE Express is a better Elephant killer than a 500 whatever are you Saeed ...??

quote:

it's really the bullet that does the work

quote:

it performs like the magic our witch doctor has instilled in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

it performs like the magic our witch doctor has instilled in it.

I see your Witch Doctor with the pelvis headgear and raise you one VooDoo Priestess ...

XXX

quote:

Originally posted by craig boddington:
This discussion has kept us bloodsucking writers in biz for a hundred years. I think Saeed had it right in the 3rd post (go back and read). But that doesn't sell guns, ammo, magazines, or books!!! I believe that 100 years of conventional wisdom establishing ".375 H&H equivalent" as the minimum is correct. Plenty for buffalo, marginal for elephant--but on the right side of margin. My own minimum for elephant is .450/.400 or .404 Jeffery. I love the big bores, but I have now seen the .577, .600, and .700 NE fail on elephant due to lack of penetration. Velocity counts, and I have never seen a .416 Rigby/Remington/Ruger/etc. fail to penetrate. But, as pointed out, it's really the bullet that does the work!
Cheers, Craig

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
If your 500 Bullets are manufactured by Michelin or Goodyear that might be a problem ... you aren't suggesting the 375 UAE Express is a better Elephant killer than a 500 whatever are you Saeed ...??

You don't know the half of it my friend.

When one designs his own catridge, then builds his own rifle, makes his own bullets, has his own witch doctor to bless it, then that combination cannot fail.

In fact, it performs like the magic our witch doctor has instilled in it.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by craig boddington:
This discussion has kept us bloodsucking writers in biz for a hundred years. I think Saeed had it right in the 3rd post (go back and read). But that doesn't sell guns, ammo, magazines, or books!!! I believe that 100 years of conventional wisdom establishing ".375 H&H equivalent" as the minimum is correct. Plenty for buffalo, marginal for elephant--but on the right side of margin. My own minimum for elephant is .450/.400 or .404 Jeffery. I love the big bores, but I have now seen the .577, .600, and .700 NE fail on elephant due to lack of penetration. Velocity counts, and I have never seen a .416 Rigby/Remington/Ruger/etc. fail to penetrate. But, as pointed out, it's really the bullet that does the work!
Cheers, Craig

It seems we keep confusing stopping power and penetration. That a 416 will penetrate further than a 600 is a given. The stopping rifles 450, 577, 600 etc. were developed to stop a charging elephant. It mattered little if there was sufficient penetration to reach the brain on all angles but what was important was stopping the charge. This is analogous to stopping a human predator in self defense. If you kill him in the battle that is well and good but when the prosecutor asks you what your intention was you had better say you wanted to stop him from endangering you or some one else not that you wanted to kill him. That is taught to every police officer in his training. With elephant the most important thing is to stop the charge and the big calibers do this more reliably than the smaller calibers. They are not 100% but the odds are that they will stop it more often than a smaller caliber. This really only applies to the head high frontal shot. On all others the big boys have enough penetration to reach the brain. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the high frontal shot is more common than I would like because an elephant has to raise his head high to see you unless you are right between his front legs. To see the ground when it is walking or feeding from the ground it has to lower his head to see downwards. If your as noisy as I am they almost always hear you and therefore look for you with raised heads.

I may be wrong here but if you use factory ammo esp. Hornadys or kynoch in your big bore doubles you will probably only be getting around 2,050 fps or less. In my opinion that is sufficient for stopping but not enough velocity for adequate penetration. As mentioned above I have has somewhat better luck on frontal shots than Craig has reported. It may be because I use only hand loaded ammunition and make sure I get at least 2,150 fps from my 500/465 or 470 Nitro. That has insured enough penetration to reach the brain on frontal shots for me. The 500 Nitro has an excellent reputation for both stopping power and penetration even though it only gets around 2,050 fps in factory loads. Why? I believe it is because the 570 grain bullet has a high SD for it's caliber. I have found the same affect using the 550 grain Woodleigh in the Lott. This is one place where just 100 fps diffence in velocity makes a huge difference in performance.

It has also been my experience that when a frontal shot fails to knock and elephant down the bullet went too high. Miss it by 2 to 3" high and it will turn and run off. You had better be quick with the second shot as it turns or you may have a long track in front of you. from what I have seen on videos Craig is a master at that shot.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by craig boddington:
This discussion has kept us bloodsucking writers in biz for a hundred years. I think Saeed had it right in the 3rd post (go back and read). But that doesn't sell guns, ammo, magazines, or books!!! I believe that 100 years of conventional wisdom establishing ".375 H&H equivalent" as the minimum is correct. Plenty for buffalo, marginal for elephant--but on the right side of margin. My own minimum for elephant is .450/.400 or .404 Jeffery. I love the big bores, but I have now seen the .577, .600, and .700 NE fail on elephant due to lack of penetration. Velocity counts, and I have never seen a .416 Rigby/Remington/Ruger/etc. fail to penetrate. But, as pointed out, it's really the bullet that does the work!
Cheers, Craig

It seems we keep confusing stopping power and penetration. That a 416 will penetrate further than a 600 is a given. The stopping rifles 450, 577, 600 etc. were developed to stop a charging elephant. It mattered little if there was sufficient penetration to reach the brain on all angles but what was important was stopping the charge. This is analogous to stopping a human predator in self defense. If you kill him in the battle that is well and good but when the prosecutor asks you what your intention was you had better say you wanted to stop him from endangering you or some one else not that you wanted to kill him. That is taught to every police officer in his training. With elephant the most important thing is to stop the charge and the big calibers do this more reliably than the smaller calibers. They are not 100% but the odds are that they will stop it more often than a smaller caliber. This really only applies to the head high frontal shot. On all others the big boys have enough penetration to reach the brain. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the high frontal shot is more common than I would like because an elephant has to raise his head high to see you unless you are right between his front legs. To see the ground when it is walking or feeding from the ground it has to lower his head to see downwards. If your as noisy as I am they almost always hear you and therefore look for you with raised heads.

I may be wrong here but if you use factory ammo esp. Hornadys or kynoch in your big bore doubles you will probably only be getting around 2,050 fps or less. In my opinion that is sufficient for stopping but not enough velocity for adequate penetration. As mentioned above I have has somewhat better luck on frontal shots than Craig has reported. It may be because I use only hand loaded ammunition and make sure I get at least 2,150 fps from my 500/465 or 470 Nitro. That has insured enough penetration to reach the brain on frontal shots for me. The 500 Nitro has an excellent reputation for both stopping power and penetration even though it only gets around 2,050 fps in factory loads. Why? I believe it is because the 570 grain bullet has a high SD for it's caliber. I have found the same affect using the 550 grain Woodleigh in the Lott. This is one place where just 100 fps diffence in velocity makes a huge difference in performance.

It has also been my experience that when a frontal shot fails to knock and elephant down the bullet went too high. Miss it by 2 to 3" high and it will turn and run off. You had better be quick with the second shot as it turns or you may have a long track in front of you. from what I have seen on videos Craig is a master at that shot.

465H&H

I have taught you well.

Just because most can use a 375 H&H doesn't mean it is a stopper or anything close to it. 400 grains and 5000 ft-lbs is what 100+ years has taught us.

While a 458 WM 500 gr. solid of any type with a "close" miss will knock a bull onto his butt, if only temporarily, a baby gun like the 9.3 and its cousins will only set it off in high gear.

That's why I have mostly used a 416 of some variety. 5000 ft-lbs, great penetration, suffer-able recoil in a lightweight rifle, and knockdown/stopping effect.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by craig boddington:
This discussion has kept us bloodsucking writers in biz for a hundred years. I think Saeed had it right in the 3rd post (go back and read). But that doesn't sell guns, ammo, magazines, or books!!! I believe that 100 years of conventional wisdom establishing ".375 H&H equivalent" as the minimum is correct. Plenty for buffalo, marginal for elephant--but on the right side of margin. My own minimum for elephant is .450/.400 or .404 Jeffery. I love the big bores, but I have now seen the .577, .600, and .700 NE fail on elephant due to lack of penetration. Velocity counts, and I have never seen a .416 Rigby/Remington/Ruger/etc. fail to penetrate. But, as pointed out, it's really the bullet that does the work!
Cheers, Craig

It seems we keep confusing stopping power and penetration. That a 416 will penetrate further than a 600 is a given. The stopping rifles 450, 577, 600 etc. were developed to stop a charging elephant. It mattered little if there was sufficient penetration to reach the brain on all angles but what was important was stopping the charge. This is analogous to stopping a human predator in self defense. If you kill him in the battle that is well and good but when the prosecutor asks you what your intention was you had better say you wanted to stop him from endangering you or some one else not that you wanted to kill him. That is taught to every police officer in his training. With elephant the most important thing is to stop the charge and the big calibers do this more reliably than the smaller calibers. They are not 100% but the odds are that they will stop it more often than a smaller caliber. This really only applies to the head high frontal shot. On all others the big boys have enough penetration to reach the brain. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the high frontal shot is more common than I would like because an elephant has to raise his head high to see you unless you are right between his front legs. To see the ground when it is walking or feeding from the ground it has to lower his head to see downwards. If your as noisy as I am they almost always hear you and therefore look for you with raised heads.

I may be wrong here but if you use factory ammo esp. Hornadys or kynoch in your big bore doubles you will probably only be getting around 2,050 fps or less. In my opinion that is sufficient for stopping but not enough velocity for adequate penetration. As mentioned above I have has somewhat better luck on frontal shots than Craig has reported. It may be because I use only hand loaded ammunition and make sure I get at least 2,150 fps from my 500/465 or 470 Nitro. That has insured enough penetration to reach the brain on frontal shots for me. The 500 Nitro has an excellent reputation for both stopping power and penetration even though it only gets around 2,050 fps in factory loads. Why? I believe it is because the 570 grain bullet has a high SD for it's caliber. I have found the same affect using the 550 grain Woodleigh in the Lott. This is one place where just 100 fps diffence in velocity makes a huge difference in performance.

It has also been my experience that when a frontal shot fails to knock and elephant down the bullet went too high. Miss it by 2 to 3" high and it will turn and run off. You had better be quick with the second shot as it turns or you may have a long track in front of you. from what I have seen on videos Craig is a master at that shot.

465H&H

I have taught you well.

Just because most can use a 375 H&H doesn't mean it is a stopper or anything close to it. 400 grains and 5000 ft-lbs is what 100+ years has taught us.

While a 458 WM 500 gr. solid of any type with a "close" miss will knock a bull onto his butt, if only temporarily, a baby gun like the 9.3 and its cousins will only set it off in high gear.

That's why I have mostly used a 416 of some variety. 5000 ft-lbs, great penetration, suffer-able recoil in a lightweight rifle, and knockdown/stopping effect.

I wonder who is teaching whom!

465H&H

quote:

When one has so much invested in a sub par cartridge, one can become fanciful as to its effectiveness.

quote:

I'm sorry, but it pains my heart to read some of the crap written about brain shots and dead elephants!!

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Will, why is it that you criticize Saeed about his caliber of choice when you know that he has successfully killed elephant and buffalo with it? Maybe you're just kidding and I'm not catching on. Sorry if that is the case.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
A variety of same cal. BB bullets;
Clearly Sd & cal. alone are not reliable methods of determining penetration.
ie; you could get a .458cal that expands/behaves like the far left bullet, and a .375 or .416 that expands/behaves like the far right pill.

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Everything I've read or heard is that (100 + years have taught us) the 500 grain bullet at 2150 - 2300 fps or larger is the standard stopping combination. A 400 grain bullet with 5000 ft/lbs has never been mentioned as a stopper that I've ever heard. Unless the brain or CNS is hit and then you get into the argument that a .375 could do that. Then again so could a .338 or .308 caliber or even less. There seems to be a lot of wiggle in opinions on this subject. If perfect shot placement can not be reliably counted upon as most people on this forum would agree, then why go for something less than the standard stopping combination?

Thanks,

jfm

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Will, why is it that you criticize Saeed about his caliber of choice when you know that he has successfully killed elephant and buffalo with it? Maybe you're just kidding and I'm not catching on. Sorry if that is the case.

Thanks,

jfm

Bill is very upset that he was born a 100 years too late. Just as I wish I was born a bit earlier too.

But, the difference between me and him is that I have accepted the extra 100 years have given me better technology to use for my hunting.

Bill, on the other hand, hasn't.
He still uses 2 barrels to hunt with, when one is perfectly good enough to do the job.

He is just a glutton for punishment, that is what it is

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Will, why is it that you criticize Saeed about his caliber of choice when you know that he has successfully killed elephant and buffalo with it? Maybe you're just kidding and I'm not catching on. Sorry if that is the case.

Thanks,

jfm

Free 500grains

quote:

a colostomy bag

quote:

Originally posted by namibiahunter:
I refuse to believe anything anyone says on this thread. You all are just trying to take the fun out of owning .416s or bigger.

Namibiahunter

quote:

I refuse to believe anything anyone says on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
Where does the 45/70 with very hard cast lead bullets fit into this discussion?