Todays USA paper says Lions and Tiger will be extinct in 20 years or less. The cauldren of emotion is being stired and soon the tide will turn and Lion hunting will be go the way of its Big Cat brother...the Tiger. We all know hunting is not the cause but since it has become an endevor for the choosen few, fewer and fewer hunters care whether there is Lion hunting and that, my friends, is the real problem. So charge and or pay 20K + for a Lion hunt while you can. As a life long hunter I see little chance swimming against this tide. the support for Lion Hunting is not and will not be there.

The irony is that limited, regulated sport hunting is probably the only thing that can save wild populations of lions and tigers. Unless the native people in big cat habitats can profit from the cats being there, there's little incentive for them to protect the cats or their habitat.

I totally agree that lion hunting will end within a few years. I always tell my clients if you want to shoot a lion, do it now or forget it. I have had 3 clients shoot 3 lions in the last 3 years - Tanzania, Zim and Burkina Faso .

Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com
Tel: 845 259 3628

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
I totally agree that lion hunting will end within a few years. I always tell my clients if you want to shoot a lion, do it now or forget it. I have had 3 clients shoot 3 lions in the last 3 years - Tanzania, Zim and Burkina Faso .

Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com
Tel: 845 259 3628

I shot one two years ago, but if I was certain cat hunting was ending, I would have never gone. For what? What if you love it? Someday I want to hunt them again. I have no desire to shoot something just to collect it or "do it" once.

Let's put it this way: I haven't missed being able to hunt tigers.

That same article says that the wild population of leopards is down to 50,000 worldwide...does that number seem off to anyone else? Could we see leopard hunting go away along with lion hunting?

This is on the coat tails of the 10 page debate going on with an ANTI... in the lion conservation forum. We (the hunters) are trying to convince a self admitted anti, the virtues of hunting as a consevation tool. For all we know this joloburn person is just a Trojan horse.

Thats the problem with our side, we are to damn courteous to those that would destroy us.(and they know it)

Hey i'll happily give you my phone number and prove i'm no trojan horse.
You also accidently fail to mention i am here to learn the other side.
As for the last part, we all know there is good and bad on every side.

The 'end of the game' was predicted in the 60's.

Reading Chris's original post a couple of things come to mind.

First is that as hunters we are not unified in our support for our sport. I will never hunt sheep but support a hunters right to pay $50,000 and hunt one. I do not care to hunt on a high fence ranch in Texas or Colorado but will support your right to do so.

Just because you cannot hunt lion why cannot the support be there for those who do. Even on AR there is a member who feels you should be hung for shooting an elephant, now that is solidarity.

Lion hunts are way north of $20,000. Lowering the price would bring no additonal support and in my opinion even less support because the LIMITED quota would be valued less. The more value an animal has the better.

I agree with Steve the anti-hunters are out to destroy us, it is not just lion it is every form of hunting.

Chris comment about the "chosen few" is right up there with his comments about the "priviliged" being able to hunt too much. Instead of supporting other hunters that have the means to hunt often he feels it is wrong for one hunter to kill too many lions or buffalo or whatever in his lifetime. Keep up that great support it is appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Reading Chris's original post a couple of things come to mind.

First is that as hunters we are not unified in our support for our sport. I will never hunt sheep but support a hunters right to pay $50,000 and hunt one. I do not care to hunt on a high fence ranch in Texas or Colorado but will support your right to do so.

Just because you cannot hunt lion why cannot the support be their for those who do. Even on AR their is a member who feels you should be hung for shooting an elephant, now that is solidarity.

Lion hunts are way north of $20,000. Lowering the price would bring no additonal support and in my opinion even less support because the LIMITED quota would be valued less. The more value an animal has the better.

I agree with Steve the anti-hunters are out to destroy us, it is not just lion it is every form of hunting.

Chris comment about the "chosen few" is right up there with his comments about the "priviliged" being able to hunt too much. Instead of supporting other hunters that have the means to hunt often he feels it is wrong for one hunter to kill too many lions or buffalo or whatever in his lifetime. Keep up that great support it is appreciated.

I missed that comment about the "privileged few." Yes, it is a theme with Chris. You made choices in life. So did we.

And 20K for a lion? Yea, right. I don't see how you could hunt them for less than 50K.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Hey i'll happily give you my phone number and prove i'm no trojan horse.
You also accidently fail to mention i am here to learn the other side.
As for the last part, we all know there is good and bad on every side.

Yes, there are good and bad on every side, the bad ones are not always what they seem......that is true as well for the good ones.

I have seen the enemy, and it is you. you seem nice, that matters not, the desired outcome is the goal. I don't want to phone you, I wish to defeat you.

This mutual written masturbation, is entertaining but useless for both parties.

I've been a businessman long enough to understand that negotiating is only possible with a party that is willing to compromise in part, to achieve a mutual goal. Ending lion or any other hunting is in no way a negotiable subject.

Either we win or the Lion and Africa looses

Nganga,

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

My last words to you.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Nganga,

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

My last words to you.

That's what I thought. I will fight you to the end to defend my hunting heritage and outdoor lifestyle, offending you means less than zero to me. It means more than just lions.

You want my guns

You want my hunting

You want my freedoms we fought a revolution over.

NO.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Reading Chris's original post a couple of things come to mind.

First is that as hunters we are not unified in our support for our sport. I will never hunt sheep but support a hunters right to pay $50,000 and hunt one. I do not care to hunt on a high fence ranch in Texas or Colorado but will support your right to do so.

Just because you cannot hunt lion why cannot the support be their for those who do. Even on AR their is a member who feels you should be hung for shooting an elephant, now that is solidarity.

Lion hunts are way north of $20,000. Lowering the price would bring no additonal support and in my opinion even less support because the LIMITED quota would be valued less. The more value an animal has the better.

I agree with Steve the anti-hunters are out to destroy us, it is not just lion it is every form of hunting.

Chris comment about the "chosen few" is right up there with his comments about the "priviliged" being able to hunt too much. Instead of supporting other hunters that have the means to hunt often he feels it is wrong for one hunter to kill too many lions or buffalo or whatever in his lifetime. Keep up that great support it is appreciated.

+1 on all of your comments.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately" -Ben Franklin.

I will probably never hunt lions, but I'd hate to see lion hunting fade away.

I hate it when this happens but i should have known it would.

Bummer!!

quote:

That's what I thought. I will fight you to the end to defend my hunting heritage and outdoor lifestyle, offending you means less than zero to me.

I too will fight to defend your hunting heritage.

quote:

It means more than just lions.

Me too. However my concern at this moment is the conservation of lions and that is why i am here. To learn about the other side of the argument.

quote:

You want my guns

You want my hunting

You want my freedoms we fought a revolution over.

NO.

I want none of those. You have every right to hunt what you wish within confines of the laws.

What i DO want is what is best for the lion, whatever that may be.

So please stop with the stereo types of who i am and what i want. We have had this convo before when if i remember rightly you also called me a troll. A troll and a trojan horse, my my you are being pleasant to those you stereotype.

Jo,
Both terms Troll and Trojan horse are merely meant as figures of speech, I know you don't live under a bridge and I know you are not a literal Trojan horse.

The problem is greater than you or I will ever be able to fix, the bigger issue is what I mean by the collective "you". And "I" is meant in the same context.

You obviously are interested in this, I have read all your posts (since the start)you are intellegent and articulate. you make a good and well thought out arguement.

As far as guns go, we spoke about that at the very beginning, you think a certificate or some proof of competency or training should be required. I have a certificate, its called the United States Constitution.

We come from different societies, the one I live in is free...it has inherent dangers, I will accept those dangers to be a free man.

I really and truly mean you personally no disrespect, We just will have to agree to disagree and comment on thing that we agree on......like rugby and soccer both suck compared to American baseball

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I missed that comment about the "privileged few." Yes, it is a theme with Chris. You made choices in life. So did we.

And 20K for a lion? Yea, right. I don't see how you could hunt them for less than 50K.

The "priviliged" comment was from another thread. I cannot remember what I ate for breakfast this morning, but I can remember a post from a year ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I missed that comment about the "privileged few." Yes, it is a theme with Chris. You made choices in life. So did we.

And 20K for a lion? Yea, right. I don't see how you could hunt them for less than 50K.

The "priviliged" comment was from another thread. I cannot remember what I ate for breakfast this morning, but I can remember a post from a year ago.

Yes, I wasted bandwidth railing against his welfare funded lion hunts theory.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:


.

I want none of those. You have every right to hunt what you wish within confines of the laws.

What i DO want is what is best for the lion, whatever that may be.[/QUOTE]



Have you been to Africa or has your belief been formed by reading what other like minded say? Go to Botswana and see what is/will happen to lions now that they are off of quota and other hunting is limited. The year I killed my lion there were 167 (at the time I saw the numbers posted by the game department in July of 07) lions killed by the Gov. under the problem animal control system. That is a very understated number because most over there don't bother to call the game department to get written permission to kill a lion that ate their cow, goat or donkey. For a fact the rancher I talked to admitted he just hunts them down and kills them. Ranching and human population growth do not mix with wild lions. At the time, money from lion hunting formed a recovery fund where ranchers could get money for their livestock. Not so any more. Now consider that year hunters took only 28 lions and paid dearly. Look over in the Maasailand in Tz and see what they are doing there. Kill a cow and it's meat is poisoned so the entire pride gets killed. Now take hunting and the monetary value it places on a lion, the money for wild areas to stay that way to be able to hunt and what do you think the people in Africa will do? Kill more or less of them? If you don't get it that is only because you are letting some preconceived belief about hunters and hunting cloud simple logic and reality. The other choice is you are not very smart. Take your pick.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
As a life long hunter I see little chance swimming against this tide. the support for Lion Hunting is not and will not be there.

One thing 100% for sure...if we give up...lion hunting will go away and so will wild lion.

quote:

Originally posted by DawnRoar:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:


.

I want none of those. You have every right to hunt what you wish within confines of the laws.

What i DO want is what is best for the lion, whatever that may be.

Have you been to Africa or has your belief been formed by reading what other like minded say? Go to Botswana and see what is/will happen to lions now that they are off of quota and other hunting is limited. The year I killed my lion there were 167 (at the time I saw the numbers posted by the game department in July of 07) lions killed by the Gov. under the problem animal control system. That is a very understated number because most over there don't bother to call the game department to get written permission to kill a lion that ate their cow, goat or donkey. For a fact the rancher I talked to admitted he just hunts them down and kills them. Ranching and human population growth do not mix with wild lions. At the time, money from lion hunting formed a recovery fund where ranchers could get money for their livestock. Not so any more. Now consider that year hunters took only 28 lions and paid dearly. Look over in the Maasailand in Tz and see what they are doing there. Kill a cow and it's meat is poisoned so the entire pride gets killed. Now take hunting and the monetary value it places on a lion, the money for wild areas to stay that way to be able to hunt and what do you think the people in Africa will do? Kill more or less of them? If you don't get it that is only because you are letting some preconceived belief about hunters and hunting cloud simple logic and reality. The other choice is you are not very smart. Take your pick.[/QUOTE]


This thread started with a reference to a USA Today article. That article, and I did read, it was nothing for than a free advertisement to donate to a "save the Lions" fund.

These organizations are doing nothing to save the Lions. That donated money is paying for the next board meeting in their five star hotel and "tour" of Botswana. When Lion hunting is banned and the Lion is gone except for the parks they will find the next "cause" to profit from.

It's business, no different than hunting looks like a business to those opposed to it.

Boy you rich guys are a very sensitive lot...I didnot intend to offend but simply bring out the fact that support (or opposition) from the masses often has more politcal clout than a few well heeled hunters. Do those who have hunted Lion support (financially)any persons and or groups that want hunting or good science to prevail? It's put your money where your mouth is time.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Boy you rich guys are a very sensitive lot...I didnot intend to offend but simply bring out the fact that support (or opposition) from the masses often has more politcal clout than a few well heeled hunters. Do those who have hunted Lion support (financially)any persons and or groups that want hunting or good science to prevail? It's put your money where your mouth is time.

No wonder the future of hunting is bleak with divisive inflamitory comments like this. You need to pack your things and go occupy wall street with that attitude. It's called class warfare

DELETED

I just don't have the time nor the energy to deal with Chris or the crazy broad from England. I have something for each of you, however, and if you'll PM me before your next trip to Silicon Valley, I'll meet you and give IT to you personally. It will be my pleasure.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
DELETED

I just don't have the time nor the energy to deal with Chris or the crazy broad from England. I have something for each of you, however, and if you'll PM me before your next trip to Silicon Valley, I'll meet you and give IT to you personally. It will be my pleasure.

MIKE!!!!! You Go!!!!

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Boy you rich guys are a very sensitive lot

Define rich!!

Hopefully the famine in Somalia will be repeated in other areas. Anything to turn the tide of humanity will help the lion and is therefore a good thing in my world view.

Famine is a friend to wildlife.

ANYBODY WHO MAKES MORE PER YEAR THAN HIM- AND IT IS PROBABLY A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION. CLASS ENVY( FOLLOWED BY CLASS WARFARE- A DEMOCRATIC PARTY SPECIALITY) IS NOT A PRETTY SIGHT. if i can't afford to do something, i am not jealous of those that can. thank God i am not that petty.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Boy you rich guys are a very sensitive lot

Define rich!!

Frostbit,

Trust me, don't try to understand the "logic" you"ll just come away feeling dumber for having even made the attempt.

I don't get it with this class warfare, class envy thing! I'm always inspired by the guys who can afford to do more than me.

I can afford Zim and Moz but not TZ. Yet!! 10 years ago I couldn't afford SA. 25 years ago, I could barely afford the rent! Who knows what the next 10 will bring? Maybe TZ, maybe the back 40. No guarantee I'll even be around still.

If you aren't happy with your financial station in life, do something about it. Bitching and envy towards others will get you exactly nowhere. It's a long road for most of us to get to a point where we can spend the $'s to hunt exotic places. I was 44 before my first overseas hunt. Many guys don't get to do it until their 60's after a lifetime of achievement. Some make it earlier. But with a few exceptions, I think most work extremely hard to get to that point. Why would you envy someone or be jealous of a fellow's achievements that took decades of struggle, failures, and sacrifices before finally paying off with success. I look at those guys as examples to inspire me into putting myself on the same track.

Chris, I don't know your background and I don't mean to disrespect you personally. You ask about guys who have hunted Lion and whether or not they have financially supported hunting or hunting groups. I think most if not all can answer YES! First of all, the dollars spent on those hunts place value on the animals themselves, making it more likely that the locals will protect them instead of poisoning or poaching when man/lion conflicts occur. In addition, many here support groups such as SCI or DSC (or both) which contribute to conservation. I don't intend to start another SCI bash fest; just pointing out that most here are supporting members of at least 1 organization that works toward science based wildlife conservation. These are just a couple of examples of support for the animals off the top of my head. I'm sure many here can name more.

Most here on AR seem to be fighting the good fight, one way or another, to support wildlife conservation and preserving our hunting heritage. Saving lion hunting is certainly a challenge at this point. Your original post seems as if you are ready to throw in the towel. How hard have you fought this battle? Are you exhausted from your efforts to counter the anti's or does it just seem too daunting a task to undertake? Does it appear that the uphill battle required for success is just to high and steep that is isn't worth the effort?

Taking that attitude when presented with a daunting challenge is contrary to achieving the very successes in life that allow one to pursue these types of hunts in the first place. And that is a guarantee!!

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Boy you rich guys are a very sensitive lot...I didnot intend to offend but simply bring out the fact that support (or opposition) from the masses often has more politcal clout than a few well heeled hunters. Do those who have hunted Lion support (financially)any persons and or groups that want hunting or good science to prevail? It's put your money where your mouth is time.

The money paid for a Lion hunt is quite substantial, the larger portion of which goes to the government who is supposed (note supposed) to allocate, through a proportionate funding process, financial remuneration towards anti poaching, compensation for crop, livestock
and/or human life - it does not happen!
The hunter however HAS played his part and money HAS gone into the government coffers. The banning of Lion hunting is akin to signing a death warrant on the remaining free-ranging Lions - the survivors will be limited to National Parks, Reserves and Breeders, once listed, the latter will no longer be able to offer their blow-dried, ball-fondled cats to the "hunter" and their business will likely fold up.

Dawnroar and lion hunter,

I am here to learn the other side and have been trying to do so for 10+ pages in another thread.

Lionhunter, if you have something to say to me please feel free but before you do i would suggest reading said thread and then deciding if i am actually the enemy or someone who just genuinely wants what is best for the lion and is seeking the truth of what that is.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:


The money paid for a Lion hunt is quite substantial, the larger portion of which goes to the government who is supposed (note supposed) to allocate, through a proportionate funding process, financial remuneration towards anti poaching, compensation for crop, livestock
and/or human life - it does not happen!

Jolouburn,
Here is a good fight for you! Go lobby for the TZ gvt. as well as all others to allocate the proper amount of hunting dollars back in to the lion and it's habitat!

Ledvm,

I posted a research piece on this a while back and was told that basically it was nonsense.

What are the true numbers of lion in countries like Kenya that do not allow hunting?

jolouburn, the problem is, despite your best intentions and in spite of the responses from some of the AR membership, the lines were drawn several years back. While I believe you are sincere and honest in what you are doing/tryoing to do, it is a case of too little too late. Unfortunately from where I set, I am afraid the same can be said for the work Lane and Aaron have been doing.

Loss of habitat, and growing human poulations in Africa have been t he biggest enemies of the lion for years. With the advent of the Animal Rights movement, which in all reality has nothing to do with Animal's Rights, but with the ability of one segment of the human population of the world to control another segment, the lions are like "Mongo" in the movie "Blazing Saddles", only pawns in this "game".

Corrupt goverments in the countries where lions are hunted not ditributing the monies in the manner they were supposed too, hunters not being able to set aside their differences and fight for the common good, well funded animal Rights/Anti-hunting groups b eing able to join forces and flood the news media with purely emotional, non-scientifically based, information, an international public that has other things to worry about, and in the end the lions will be the losers, and I really don't think that anything can be done to stop this avalanmche from reaching its eventual goal.

Does the fight need to continue, yes, all the way to the bitter end and it will be a bitter end. regardless of anyone's thoughts, the money and the emotions are on the side of the ones wanting lion hunting stopped. All they are interested in is stopping hunting, PERIOD. Lions are just merely a stepping stone. It is just like when the big effort was underway in California to save the condor's, the group fighting hardest against it were the "Greenies". Thankfully in some ways, clearer heads prevailed and condors still fly in the American west.

With lions and all other wild animals, the anti's do not care if they go extinct, they are not wanting to preservr or save a species, they want to stop another segment of the human population of this planet from doing somethimng they enjoy.

When lion hunting is stopped, no matter how much or how hard many of us hope it won't, when wild lions go extinct, the Animal Rights/Ant-Hunting groups will place all the blame on sport hunter, claiming that had not so many lions been killed by sport hunters the species could have been saved.

The folks wanting lion hunting/all hunting stopped care nothing about physical proof or verifable science no matter how accurate it is, all they care about is stopping something and then moving on and getting something else stopped. It is a control issue, nothing more, and they really don't care who or what loses in the end, as long as they win.

Crazyhorseconsulting,

In many ways i think you are right. I'm pretty sure most antis and the general public would like to see hunting stopped altogether. The antis because they disagree with the hunting communities thoughts on how to conserve the lion and perhaps because of the reason you suggest, they just want to stop hunting.

The general public is another kettle of fish though. They want a ban on lion hunting because they have been told it is in the best interest of the lion by the antis. Many do not do their own research, they just rely on the easily available media out there to form their opinions. I'll bet if you spoke to a selection of the general public they wouldn't even know what your side of the argument/debate is!

I tested this theory. I talked with many of our customers about the lion and its conservation and not one of them was aware of your side. Now i know i have only spoken with a small selection but they come from all walks of life from your builders, plumbers, postmen to managers, business owners etc.

Now as an anti (thats what im seen as although im trying to find my way) i have put your side across to a few people, they may have listened, they may have ignored. Their opinion may have changed, it may not. But i have put something out there, however small my area might be. Perhaps its time for the hunting community to do the same and get their views into the media too. Give the general public ALL the info they need to make their minds up and support whichever side of the fence they fall on.

A pipe dream, wishful thinking, too late, maybe but its a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
ANYBODY WHO MAKES MORE PER YEAR THAN HIM- AND IT IS PROBABLY A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION. CLASS ENVY( FOLLOWED BY CLASS WARFARE- A DEMOCRATIC PARTY SPECIALITY) IS NOT A PRETTY SIGHT. if i can't afford to do something, i am not jealous of those that can. thank God i am not that petty.

Well said!

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Crazyhorseconsulting,

In many ways i think you are right. I'm pretty sure most antis and the general public would like to see hunting stopped altogether. The antis because they disagree with the hunting communities thoughts on how to conserve the lion and perhaps because of the reason you suggest, they just want to stop hunting.

The general public is another kettle of fish though. They want a ban on lion hunting because they have been told it is in the best interest of the lion by the antis. Many do not do their own research, they just rely on the easily available media out there to form their opinions. I'll bet if you spoke to a selection of the general public they wouldn't even know what your side of the argument/debate is!

I tested this theory. I talked with many of our customers about the lion and its conservation and not one of them was aware of your side. Now i know i have only spoken with a small selection but they come from all walks of life from your builders, plumbers, postmen to managers, business owners etc.

Now as an anti (thats what im seen as although im trying to find my way) i have put your side across to a few people, they may have listened, they may have ignored. Their opinion may have changed, it may not. But i have put something out there, however small my area might be. Perhaps its time for the hunting community to do the same and get their views into the media too. Give the general public ALL the info they need to make their minds up and support whichever side of the fence they fall on.

A pipe dream, wishful thinking, too late, maybe but its a thought.

This can be summed up in one question and the "you" is a general "you" not you specifically.

"Do you hate hunters more than you love wildlife?"

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Hopefully the famine in Somalia will be repeated in other areas. Anything to turn the tide of humanity will help the lion and is therefore a good thing in my world view.

Famine is a friend to wildlife.

........the stupidity of that statement overwhelms me......

Brett