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August 9, 2016

False pride of trophy hunting

An undercover video reveals how trophy hunting vendors bait animals for easy kills
All Animals magazine, September/October 2016

Story by Karen E. Lange



Want to kill a majestic big cat but are pressed for time? It helps to remove chance from the equation. And the vendors at the Safari Club International convention can help you do just that. “We pre-bait for people, if you want,” says a safari operator, caught on video during an HSI/HSUS undercover investigation. “We’ll go ahead and put up the baits for that leopard, or that lion. It can save time.” Dead zebras will be hoisted in trees, and when a leopard comes to feed on one, you, the lucky trophy hunter, will sit comfortably hidden behind a blind. The task of finding and killing an elusive leopard won’t be a challenge at all.

Inside SCI’s annual convention in February in Las Vegas, the more than 500 hunting outfitters offering trophy hunting packages for tens of thousands of dollars weren’t selling chances to conserve leopards or other threatened or endangered species, as SCI’s media statements suggest. Instead, the investigator’s conversations with safari operators revealed vendors offering the lives of animals like merchandise. Safari operators promoted hunting tours that are anything but fair chase, offering hunts on fenced properties, guaranteeing kills and using dead animals for bait and hounds for tracking and cornering.



The footage was released just before July 1 to mark the first anniversary of American trophy hunter Walter Palmer’s killing of Cecil, a much-beloved lion, outside Zimbabwe’s Hwange National Park. SCl relies on money hunters pay to attend the convention, as well as auctions of safaris at the event, for more than half of its funding. Convention revenues are tax-exempt. Masha Kalinina, international trade policy specialist for HSI, hopes the video will help the public understand the true character of trophy hunting. “It’s how the animals’ lives are being treated, like dinner items on a restaurant menu—you can just have your pick,” she says. “We’re talking about slaughter!”



Vendors caught on tape say bookings have dropped significantly since Cecil’s death. Recent reports may lower them further. The Democratic staff of the House Committee on Natural Resources found trophy hunting hurts conservation. Researchers in Zambia report trophy hunting is one reason Africa’s lion population has fallen 40 percent. And the International Union for the Conservation of Nature says it’s also harmed Africa’s leopards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTuwb8U2uec


Undercover video at SCI Convention.

Thanks for posting Kathi.

Geez, glad that Social Media is our friend.

Looks like Captain Obvious has become an investigative journalist.

The next big story in the series will be how evil bloodthirsty hunters grow food plots to "bait" deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Thanks for posting Kathi.

Geez, glad that Social Media is out friend.

I take it that unilateral disarmament is your solution?

Maybe if you ignore social media, the fad will go away?

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Looks like Captain Obvious has become an investigative journalist.

The next big story in the series will be how evil bloodthirsty hunters grow food plots to "bait" deer.

Or wipe out the wolves.

Note it was democrat members that came up with this info.

Not nonpartisan fact finding.

This is going to be a mess if the wrong folks in the WH.

I think it is safe to state we here on AR are all on the same page. However, there is absolutely no way we can defend or justify to the public what is shown in the short video.

A few days ago I had dinner with several fine gents and the one I sat next to (he posted above) agreed that the end of trophy hunting, international hunting, etc., is close to an end. Now that the world sees what we do via social media there is no hiding the facts. I'm glad I've done what I wanted to do. Even here in Alaska there are too many antis (both hunting and firearms).

We're about done.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Thanks for posting Kathi.

Geez, glad that Social Media is out friend.

I take it that unilateral disarmament is your solution?

Maybe if you ignore social media, the fad will go away?

Yes. Complete and un-conditional surrender.

Of course not. I've been saying all along that the incessant use of FB, Youtube and AR posting photo's of dead stuff, has harmed our cause.

In the simplest of terms, if it were a binary choice, A; Posting hunting pictures harms our sport or B; Hunting pictures does no harm, which would you pick?

Just an observation, nothing more, and contrary to popular belief, African hunting is not the be all/end all, ALL hunting World Wide is in danger.

Too many people, not just those hunting in Africa, have turned or tried to turn ALL hunting everywhere, into a Competitive Sport and all too often have allowed or participated in creating the situation where whoever has the deepest pockets manages to "HUNT" and kill the biggest trophies.

Too many hunters, World Wide., have bought into the concept that the better/higher the score of a certain species antlers or horns or skull, makes them the
"Better" hunter.

Hunters are not completely at fault, guides/Ph's/outfitters/LandOwners and other associated people involved in the hunting industry have learned and learned well that providing "Trophy" animals on a regular basis for clients, means more business/more notoriety.

If actual hunters want to try and turn things around, they will have to change their attitudes concerning what does or does not constitute a "Trophy" animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just an observation, nothing more, and contrary to popular belief, African hunting is not the be all/end all, ALL hunting World Wide is in danger.

Too many people, not just those hunting in Africa, have turned or tried to turn ALL hunting everywhere, into a Competitive Sport and all too often have allowed or participated in creating the situation where whoever has the deepest pockets manages to "HUNT" and kill the biggest trophies.

Too many hunters, World Wide., have bought into the concept that the better/higher the score of a certain species antlers or horns or skull, makes them the
"Better" hunter.

Hunters are not completely at fault, guides/Ph's/outfitters/LandOwners and other associated people involved in the hunting industry have learned and learned well that providing "Trophy" animals on a regular basis for clients, means more business/more notoriety.

If actual hunters want to try and turn things around, they will have to change their attitudes concerning what does or does not constitute a "Trophy" animal.

Hi Randall,

Hope you and Laura are well my friend!

Steve

Hope all is well with you Steve.

I just don't see hiding hunting as accomplishing anything. There is a difference in doing something non-offensively and doing the "In Your Face" route.

My point is that I see ALL of us that enjoy hunting, losing over the actions of a few that look for notoriety.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Hope all is well with you Steve.

I just don't see hiding hunting as accomplishing anything. There is a difference in doing something non-offensively and doing the "In Your Face" route.

My point is that I see ALL of us that enjoy hunting, losing over the actions of a few that look for notoriety.

Agree 1000%

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I've been saying all along that the incessant use of FB, Youtube and AR posting photo's of dead stuff, has harmed our cause.

In the simplest of terms, if it were a binary choice, A; Posting hunting pictures harms our sport or B; Hunting pictures does no harm, which would you pick?

This is another case of our enemies using social media in a far better manner than us. We seldom get out a decent message on social media. 99% of what I see is about killing and the great luxury hunt.

While I support our right to hunt there are "hunts" being sold that disgust even me.

I posted this back in 2014:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...101009502#1101009502

quote:

In the original post I was not referring to the shooting as that would definitely be hypocritical of me. Also I will always support our right to post hunts on social media. I emailed my wife a picture of an elephant I shot two weeks ago. She put it on Facebook which is something I would not do. I had to comeback and explain the role hunting plays in conservation.

One part of me says screw what the anti-hunters think, as we will never change their minds. But another side of me believes there is a large group out there that if they understood better the role hunting plays in conservation they would accept hunting much more. We seldom get that point across in videos. Hunting is only seen as a blood sport, that was the reason for my comment. The Internet and in particular social media plays a huge role in public opinion, not necessarily facts, that can affect our ability to hunt in the future.

Look at it this way, does the beef industry put out videos of killing cattle? No because it would upset a lot of people and hurt their business. People know cattle die to feed the masses, they just do not want to see it.

I have always felt AR is "our" forum. As hunters it gives us a place to post pictures and share experiences, as well as argue among ourselves. Facebook, YouTube, etc. are true social media outlets. Putting dead animals on that media does us no favors.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I've been saying all along that the incessant use of FB, Youtube and AR posting photo's of dead stuff, has harmed our cause.

In the simplest of terms, if it were a binary choice, A; Posting hunting pictures harms our sport or B; Hunting pictures does no harm, which would you pick?

This is another case of our enemies using social media in a far better manner than us. We seldom get out a decent message on social media. 99% of what I see is about killing and the great luxury hunt.

While I support our right to hunt there are "hunts" being sold that disgust even me.

I posted this back in 2014:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...101009502#1101009502

quote:

In the original post I was not referring to the shooting as that would definitely be hypocritical of me. Also I will always support our right to post hunts on social media. I emailed my wife a picture of an elephant I shot two weeks ago. She put it on Facebook which is something I would not do. I had to comeback and explain the role hunting plays in conservation.

One part of me says screw what the anti-hunters think, as we will never change their minds. But another side of me believes there is a large group out there that if they understood better the role hunting plays in conservation they would accept hunting much more. We seldom get that point across in videos. Hunting is only seen as a blood sport, that was the reason for my comment. The Internet and in particular social media plays a huge role in public opinion, not necessarily facts, that can affect our ability to hunt in the future.

Look at it this way, does the beef industry put out videos of killing cattle? No because it would upset a lot of people and hurt their business. People know cattle die to feed the masses, they just do not want to see it.

I have always felt AR is "our" forum. As hunters it gives us a place to post pictures and share experiences, as well as argue among ourselves. Facebook, YouTube, etc. are true social media outlets. Putting dead animals on that media does us no favors.

Great post Mike.

I believe that most whom argue my point don't understand what it is I am really getting at.

They typically will argue that "we need to use social media to educate." with that I concur.

However, most of the time, our use of social media isn't to educate, it is to simply post inflammatory pictures that motivate and galvanize our opposition.

We are sorely disorganized and closely resemble a circular firing squad.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Thanks for posting Kathi.

Geez, glad that Social Media is our friend.

I tend to agree with Steve that social media is not our friend. I don't claim to know the answer, but we (international trophy hunters) are a minority of a minority. We have to have people on our side who don't do what we do in order to continue. That's just how it is. Videos like this don't help.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
....most of the time, our use of social media ...is to simply post inflammatory pictures that motivate and galvanize our opposition.

The opposition really isn't the problem. They're going to think what they think and do what they do either way. The worst is when we motivate and galvanize the normally uninvolved and uncaring majority of people against us. You tip those scales against you and you're going to lose every time.

Brett

Education will not trump emotion. As Steve once told me there are not enough of us to make a difference to the voting blocks politicians pander to.
I hope Hillary lets me keep my double rifles!@
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by BrettAKSCI:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
....most of the time, our use of social media ...is to simply post inflammatory pictures that motivate and galvanize our opposition.

The opposition really isn't the problem. They're going to think what they think and do what they do either way. The worst is when we motivate and galvanize the normally uninvolved and uncaring majority of people against us. You tip those scales against you and you're going to lose every time.

Brett

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Education will not trump emotion. As Steve once told me there are not enough of us to make a difference to the voting blocks politicians pander to.
I hope Hillary lets me keep my double rifles!@
Cal

There are roughly 10,000 American, International Sport hunters. Divide that up nationally then ask yourself, what politician would risk re-election, to satisfy such a tiny and controversial segment of their constituency.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Education will not trump emotion. As Steve once told me there are not enough of us to make a difference to the voting blocks politicians pander to.
I hope Hillary lets me keep my double rifles!@
Cal

There are roughly 10,000 American, International Sport hunters. Divide that up nationally then ask yourself, what politician would risk re-election, to satisfy such a tiny and controversial segment of their constituency.

R-AK Don Young. No others come to mind.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Education will not trump emotion. As Steve once told me there are not enough of us to make a difference to the voting blocks politicians pander to.
I hope Hillary lets me keep my double rifles!@
Cal

There are roughly 10,000 American, International Sport hunters. Divide that up nationally then ask yourself, what politician would risk re-election, to satisfy such a tiny and controversial segment of their constituency.

Where did you get that number, Steve?

Bill Quimby

I guarantee you the majority of the "Democratic staff of the House committee (blah, blah, blah) are under 25 with no clue how nature really works.

These kids haven't been taught how to even phrase an argument to sound at least somewhat scientific and thought out. Just put your self-righteous indignation in the story and everyone will be convinced? Sad what we're becoming as a society.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Education will not trump emotion. As Steve once told me there are not enough of us to make a difference to the voting blocks politicians pander to.
I hope Hillary lets me keep my double rifles!@
Cal

There are roughly 10,000 American, International Sport hunters. Divide that up nationally then ask yourself, what politician would risk re-election, to satisfy such a tiny and controversial segment of their constituency.

Where did you get that number, Steve?

Bill Quimby

I got it from Craig Boddington. I was emailing with him about the ridiculous amount of bad Whitetail Deer hunting on TV and the few quality African hunting shows. It was 6-7 years ago probably.

His rational to the wide delta in Africa/Whitetail is just a numbers game. I think the number of Whitetail hunters was in excess of 5 million then? Really don't remember but the 10K stuck with me as I thought it would be higher.

So, it is his number. It may or may not be accurate but I bet its not far off.

Steve:
It would be interesting to break the number down to those that hunt Africa and other overseas destinations on a regular basis and what percentage is the one-time hunter going to South Africa whose number will be replaced with another new hunter the next year.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Steve:
It would be interesting to break the number down to those that hunt Africa and other overseas destinations on a regular basis and what percentage is the one-time hunter going to South Africa whose number will be replaced with another new hunter the next year.
Cal

That would prove interesting. Further; if one could graph the quantity of hunters and break those down by species and how many trips over they had taken.

To get back to the original topic, this is not social media being used by hunters that is hurting us.

This is an example of deceptive media practices being used to "prove a point" as we all know.

As I recall, at SCI, there were signs all over this place stating that no photography of filming was allowed except for the personal use of members without permission. Somehow I doubt that HSUS got that permission.

Knowing HSUS and the antis, I would not be surprised if this was heavily edited to make it look bad, and may even have been electronically modified to fit their agenda. How would a hunter not posting on social media have changed this?

Heck, the only cat hunt I went on that had prebaiting was monumentally unsuccessful. I have heard that hound hunts for leopard are not anywhere near 100% either.

I don't disagree that most of the "bubba" hunting pics and videos are not helpful for our cause, but even "bubba" has his first amendment rights, so we are not going to get too far banning it, and if we self restrict, it means that only the reasonable folks will no longer have a footprint and the only things unknowing people will see is the bad ones like that Green Mile abortion.

Ding-bats can twist things anyway they want, but they are still ding-bats. I would love for one of these people to spend a few nights in the African bush with some of these lions. Then, reality will show them the error of their ways.

I get a kick when one of the "pitbulls aren't dangerous, its their owners" crowd watches helplessly as their pet pitbull attacks someone or something, then, and only then, do they understand the nature of pitbulls. (Although I do feel sorry for the recipient of the attack).

BH63

They aren't going to do that but;

They will have an opinion though.

The bullshit I had to cop over Cecil was unbelievable.........

Imagine the utter stupidity of this woman!

So enjoy hunting, and are proud of it, but to her our pride is false??

Who cares what she and her lot think?

I was a trophy hunter most of my life, today Im more of a subsistence hunter and feel I should leave the big ones to the less fortunate than I in regards to hunting opertunity...

I ate or utilized every trophy I ever shot, and this women knows not from whence she came, she is a uneducated total one way faciast, its her way or the highway..Ive seen a ton of them, some of them weighed a ton..Her reasoning is without merit, only expounds on ignorance..of course trophy hunters eat what the harvest, and by shooting a trophy they keep the gene pool clean and stop inbreeding the same as the rancher that puts t bones on her plate, or chicken, her being a liberal without a doubt..

Anyway, what she thinks is of little importance to me unless she wants to email me and go one on one, as long as she can remain civil..

I think several of these posts go to my point of Social Media and how we as a demographic look at it.

Those of us with an "In your face" take no prisoners attitude, sound to the anti's, the way the this nut sounds to us. Did you ever think of that?

If we cannot present a sober and cogent message, how can we be taken seriously by the few left whom haven't formed a negative attitude towards sport hunting?

Many of us sound much like Donald Trump with a knee jerk reaction. It's too pavlovian and predictable. They scream and we simply bark back. They now understand how to throw red meat to us and how we will react to it.

We continue to call one another names and forget that we all want the same thing. we simply see a different path to our goals. But the goal itself is the same.

I do not have the answers but cannot see how our current path leads to the continuation of our rich hunting heritage as Americans.

and, "if you don't stop that, you'll go blind...".

Why can't SCI sue them for violating the terms of their admission?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
I think several of these posts go to my point of Social Media and how we as a demographic look at it.

Those of us with an "In your face" take no prisoners attitude, sound to the anti's, the way the this nut sounds to us. Did you ever think of that?

If we cannot present a sober and cogent message, how can we be taken seriously by the few left whom haven't formed a negative attitude towards sport hunting?

Many of us sound much like Donald Trump with a knee jerk reaction. It's too pavlovian and predictable. They scream and we simply bark back. They now understand how to throw red meat to us and how we will react to it.

We continue to call one another names and forget that we all want the same thing. we simply see a different path to our goals. But the goal itself is the same.

I do not have the answers but cannot see how our current path leads to the continuation of our rich hunting heritage as Americans.

Good points, Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Why can't SCI sue them for violating the terms of their admission?

Do you really expect anything useful from SCI??

SCI is part of the problem!

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:
This is another case of our enemies using social media in a far better manner than us. We seldom get out a decent message on social media. 99% of what I see is about killing and the great luxury hunt.

The problem is that the decent message requires an audience willing and capable of engaging in a rational manner to economic, environmental, ecological, scientific and socio-cultural issues. In simple terms it's a broadsheet message.

The anti message does not - it only requires an emotional response to sensationalism. It is a tabloid message.

It is ironic that much of the material put out there by so-called hunters is designed for a tabloid audience also. It elicits the same kind of response, but from the different perspective of a hunting audience. If more hunters wanted to engage in the broadsheet message, then that is the message that would be put out more frequently. Unfortunately, it seems that the majority do not.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:
This is another case of our enemies using social media in a far better manner than us. We seldom get out a decent message on social media. 99% of what I see is about killing and the great luxury hunt.

The problem is that the decent message requires an audience willing and capable of engaging in a rational manner to economic, environmental, ecological, scientific and socio-cultural issues. In simple terms it's a broadsheet message.

The anti message does not - it only requires an emotional response to sensationalism. It is a tabloid message.

It is ironic that much of the material put out there by so-called hunters is designed for a tabloid audience also. It elicits the same kind of response, but from the different perspective of a hunting audience. If more hunters wanted to engage in the broadsheet message, then that is the message that would be put out more frequently. Unfortunately, it seems that the majority do not.

Jabilihunter,
Let me take your argument a step further.
Each "side" believes they are right.
Each "side" is emotionally engaged in helping protect/conserve/enhance wildlife and wild places.
Each side has a method we believe to be the answer.

This same situation arose in the 1st century with the arrival of Jesus. The Jews and pagans viewed him vastly differently. The arguments of what constitutes a "spiritual or "right" life" continue to this day.

The most successful discussions on this centered around the people who were known as "apologists". CS Lewis was one of the best known and well regarded. He was once an atheist that became a sold out believer that Jesus was the Son of God and offered the only way to eternal life.

That obviously started a firestorm among his intellectual friends. They discussed/debated and "worked" this subject for many years.

In the end, some converted to CS Lewis's position, others did not. He used the language of his opponents and argued from logic and from their perspective to prove and articulate his position.

As hunters, we should note this. We should be well versed in social media, we should know the language of the PETA and anti crowd. We must know the facts and be able to articulate without getting emotional what our role and position is. Again, we will not convert them all, but we will win a few.

In the end, yelling and calling people names does not win folks over. An example is our current election - Trump is calling out everyone, Hillary is silent and staying task with what she thinks is her message. She is having success, Trump is looking insensitive and uncaring at this point. Look at how she phrases her arguments and how Trump phrases his.

This appeals to people who are not confrontation oriented. In the end, few people want to go toe to toe to argue something. And if we do, we lose them.

We can stand our ground as the NRA does and not capitulate - but we have to win them over. A hammer does not work, reason often does.

As an aside, look at a few of the posters on AR. We have a few that like to go for throat at the slightest provocation. We have others that will discuss and articulate a perspective. I rarely read the "go for the throat" posts as they do not accomplish anything. I read "reasonableness".

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Education will not trump emotion. As Steve once told me there are not enough of us to make a difference to the voting blocks politicians pander to.
I hope Hillary lets me keep my double rifles!@
Cal

There are roughly 10,000 American, International Sport hunters. Divide that up nationally then ask yourself, what politician would risk re-election, to satisfy such a tiny and controversial segment of their constituency.

Where did you get that number, Steve?

Bill Quimby

I got it from Craig Boddington. I was emailing with him about the ridiculous amount of bad Whitetail Deer hunting on TV and the few quality African hunting shows. It was 6-7 years ago probably.

His rational to the wide delta in Africa/Whitetail is just a numbers game. I think the number of Whitetail hunters was in excess of 5 million then? Really don't remember but the 10K stuck with me as I thought it would be higher.

So, it is his number. It may or may not be accurate but I bet its not far off.

Hi Steve:


I think Craig may have been leaning on the conservative side. When I retired in 1994, South Africa's tourism department released the results of a study that found no fewer than 5,000 Americas were arriving annually to hunt in that country.

There may be that many Americans who hunt in Canada and Mexico each year, and if you add those of us who hunt elsewhere in Africa, as well as Europe, South America, Asia and the South Pacific, the number could be three or four times what Craig quoted.

Craig is correct, though. Whatever the number is, it is a piddling number compared to what is needed to protect our heritage.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Education will not trump emotion. As Steve once told me there are not enough of us to make a difference to the voting blocks politicians pander to.
I hope Hillary lets me keep my double rifles!@
Cal

There are roughly 10,000 American, International Sport hunters. Divide that up nationally then ask yourself, what politician would risk re-election, to satisfy such a tiny and controversial segment of their constituency.

Where did you get that number, Steve?

Bill Quimby

I got it from Craig Boddington. I was emailing with him about the ridiculous amount of bad Whitetail Deer hunting on TV and the few quality African hunting shows. It was 6-7 years ago probably.

His rational to the wide delta in Africa/Whitetail is just a numbers game. I think the number of Whitetail hunters was in excess of 5 million then? Really don't remember but the 10K stuck with me as I thought it would be higher.

So, it is his number. It may or may not be accurate but I bet its not far off.

Hi Steve:


I think Craig may have been leaning on the conservative side. When I retired in 1994, South Africa's tourism department released the results of a study that found no fewer than 5,000 Americas were arriving annually to hunt in that country.

There may be that many Americans who hunt in Canada and Mexico each year, and if you add those of us who hunt elsewhere in Africa, as well as Europe, South America, Asia and the South Pacific, the number could be three or four times what Craig quoted.

Craig is correct, though. Whatever the number is, it is a piddling number compared to what is needed to protect our heritage.

Bill Quimby

Hi Bill,

My wording was misleading. I stated "International" I meant "go to Africa." Point is, even if there were 100,000, if you were to extrapolate that out per state, per congressional district, it means exactly nothing to a politician.

Can you see a politician seeking re-election in a town hall meeting setting, trying to defend Elephant or Lion hunting to a bunch of people who are worried about ISIS or Illegal immigration or their Jobs?

The numbers we represent are less than a fart in the proverbial windstorm.