Without starting a Hatfield and McCoy fued and cuss fight, I would like to pose the following questions/statements.

I feel a .400 cal 400 grain bullet at @2150 fps has less "felt" recoil, and more "killing power than the factory 375H&H whether it is with soft point bullets or solids.

Looking back there were some complaints with 404 Jeffery bullets, but none with any of the 450./400's. In todays world there is no excuse for bullet failure... there are just too many good bullets to pick from.

There is a lot of "conversation" with Bolt Rifle Trash over .40 cal rifles.
It seems to me the simplest solution is a 416 Rem Mag, THAT WORKS, with reloads giving a 400 grain bullet 2150 to 2200 fps.
Easy and cheap to find brass and bullets.

Rusty's 404Jeffery Bolt is a good example, as was a 416 Rem Mag I once had. Both were very pleasant to shoot.
More comfortable than a 375 H&H.

Of course a 450/400 double is the best of all possible worlds, especially if scoped.

Well, might as well start this off. I don't agree with the 404 and 450/400 scenarios.

The 450/400 is just the consequential cordite version of the old blackpowder round and the 404 Jeffery, also at ~2150 fps, got its market share from being chambered in cheap rifles.

Any of the 416's at their higher velocities are better.

Opposing opinions??

Never used a 41 cal on anything dangerous, but I shot a pig with a 416 rigby and it did not die as fast as a kudu shot with a 470. Both died faster than any game I have ever shot with a .375, but that is not proof of anything. Perhaps I will wait until Blaser brings out the 400 H&H to give the .40's a chance.

500grains
I am glad you opened this can of worms and not me....
For the non double rifle shooter, the 400 H&H, in the near full-auto, works all the time Blaser R 93, with a .40 cal 400 grain bullet, will be hard to beat.

Will
I hope that my wife and I will shoot enough game with the 450/400 this Oct. in Zim to make a valid comparison with game taken by my 450 No2, and the 9,3x74R. I will report how it goes.

I've only shot my .416 a few times but can't say I find it more comfortable than my .375.

Are you assuming similar stock design and proportionate weight (e.g., 9 lb. .375 and 9.5 lb. .416)?

I would agree with Will that the 416s are more versatile than a 404J, which is perhaps what is meant by "better". But, for the 25 to 50 yard shot with a solid bullet against DG I think it would hard to find any real and verifiable superiority of the 416. The .423 caliber will leave a slightly larger wound channel, because it's a little shorter for the same weight it would be less prone to deformation in a solid (just as it is easier to bend a longer thinner bar than a shorter fatter bar of metal)and because there is less recoil one might just shoot it more accurately and reload with more confidence because of the shorter bolt throw. For shots at the 150 to 250 yard distances, the 416 becomes a better caliber. So it might depend on just what kind of shooting you do.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
500grains
I am glad you opened this can of worms and not me....
For the non double rifle shooter, the 400 H&H, in the near full-auto, works all the time Blaser R 93, with a .40 cal 400 grain bullet, will be hard to beat.

So now we get "near full auto" trash to trash around with!

quote:

Originally posted by John Frazer:
I've only shot my .416 a few times but can't say I find it more comfortable than my .375.

Are you assuming similar stock design and proportionate weight (e.g., 9 lb. .375 and 9.5 lb. .416)?

I agree with John Frazer. I have had both - .375 H&H and .416 Rem Mag. I have shot both to the point where I dread picking up the .416. I sold it cheap on this board about 6 months ago to keep my .375's.

I agree that a bigger bullet with more power hits harder - but the gun hits the shooter harder as well. I have no need for anything bigger than a .375 H&H and likely cannot shoot anything bigger very well.

As every experienced hunter knows - placement, placement, placement are the three golden rules of shooting well....

I'm with Will on this one, but I'd take it a step further; A 400gr/416 driven to 2500 plus velocities witha good bullet, I think has greater "killing effect" than one at 2150 or so. jorge

/

I hunted a few years ago with a PH Gomez Adams. He had a lovely 450/400 he carried for back up. I asked where he got it and he said when he worked for Parks the hunters were given a rifle and selection was made by seniority. When it was his turn to select, all the large calibers were taken thus he selected his 450/400. I wonder why all the highly experienced Parks veterans selected the larger calibers first?

I like this old article
http://www.safariarms.com/pictures.htm

I can't believe there is much difference in the effectiveness of the 400 H&H, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 450/400, 416 Rem, etc. regardless of what kind of rifle fires the bullet. Maybe at longer ranges with the faster rounds.

I beleive that a couple hundred feet of velocity difference is material, and that a 450/400 isn't in the same legue as, say, a 500/416 even though they are both double rifle cartridges. Likewise, with any pair of similar calibre cartridges where one is around 2050 (actual feild performance) and the other is around 2250 (actual feild performance). As Will points out in another thread on the difference between calibres, the difference may be immaterial for good killing shots, but I think it is material when the angles aren't ideal or the shot perfect.

Alf,

I think 450 NE No2's comment about the 404 bullets was a comment about some bullet failures in 404 ammo and not about problems with the comparative ballistics of the 450/400 vs the 404. I have read of similar complaints about the bullets in German manufactured 404 ammo. Whether the complaints have merit or not I don't know. Like 450 NE No2, I have never read of any problems with 450/400 bullets, likely to be limited to English production, so maybe its with just the German solid bullets of yesteryear.

JPK

Comparing the 375 H&H and the various 40's is almost comparing apples to oranges. The 375 is an excellent large plains game and cat cartridge, good to ranges somewhat above 300 yds. It is also a good client buffalo or elephant rifle when backed up by a PH with a large bore. It is not the best selection (but a reasonable one) for elephant or buff when used alone. Thje 450's and above are the prefered medicine for elephant or buff whether used alone or in the company of a PH and IMO mandatory for hunting mixed elephant herds in the jesse. I'll get hung from a lamp post here but I don't see that the 40's have any use in my DG battery. They aren't as flat shooting as the 375's for longer shots at plains game nor do they have the stopping power of the 450's+ for elephants or buff in the thick stuff. The 40's seem to be a compromise in trying to do both jobs and don't do either as well as the combination of a 375 and a 450+. If you can only afford one rifle maybe a 40 has some use, but if you can afford to hunt DG in Africa surely you can afford two rifles.

The comments on the poor bullet performance of the 404J seem to start with John Taylor reporting on a couple of hunters complaining on the performance of it's bullets. With modern bullets that is no more of a concern then the same comments on the 470 etc. In Jose Pardal's book Elephant Hunting in Portuegese East Africa, he has several pages of pictures of sectioned bullets from most of the old Nitro express cartridges, the 404J, 505 Gibbs etc. He also has pictures of sectioned and recovered Winchester 458 solids. He compares the jacket thickness of the old Kynoch pre-steel jacketed solids with the post war Kynock steel jacketed solids for the same calibers. The 450/400 had an excellent reputation for deep straight line penetrtation compared to other calibers of the time, both before and after the switch to steel jackets. The sectioned views showed that for some reason the 450/400 bullets had thicker jackets then their bretheren both before and after the switch and deformed less. Possibly that is why the 450/400 had such a good reputation.

465H&H

465 has about closed the arguements as far as I am concerned. Well stated reasons and facts. I for one will NOT be hanging him from the lamp post! (At least on this matter.)

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
I can't believe there is much difference in the effectiveness of the 400 H&H, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 450/400, 416 Rem, etc. regardless of what kind of rifle fires the bullet. Maybe at longer ranges with the faster rounds.

I agree, assuming all are useing the same quality in bullet selection, the only difference between these listed above is the NUT behind the rifle! If he can shoot, and knows his rifle, he is deadly with any of them!

Concur. Excellent post 465 at least from this neophyte's perspective. I was given a cpoy of Pardal's book in spanish and although it took me a while to read it, it's arguably the best book on hunting I've ever read. Your opinion on the 416s is just about perfect, I just prefer a 416 at 2500 plus than a 458 Win Mag at 2100. I like speed! But I am "in the hunt" for a 45 though! jorge

/

Alf!

Not at all what I said. I was making the case that the 450/400 had a better reputation than some of it's conrtempories because the bullets had thicker shielding and thus were less likely to deform and therefore penetrated deeper and straighter than their contemporaries. None of them would compare with modern bullets such as Woodleigh RNS or any of the FN monometal soilds for staright line penetration.

465H&H

Given the variables in a hunting situation it may be a bit difficult to judge the effectiveness of one particular round over another or determine which one is better on a given hunt....circumstances, game hunted, etc, etc.

Historical prospectives have some use but today is the good ole days with significant improvements in Bullets, powders, steels, etc...Not to rain on anyone's parade but what Taylor may of said many, many years ago is of little value today given improvements.....

What concerns me most is the ability to place shots in the kill zone with a bullet that will penetrate and cause enough damage to kill the animal as quickly as possible!

I also want a rifle that I can carry all day and not kill me! (10.75+ lbs of rifle is not for me!) balances and points well.

I am going to try a 404 Jeffery, at least I have a chance a building a slimmer and trimmer rifle over the larger rounds. The 404 Jeffery will do anything and more than a 416 Remington and certainly more that a 450/400. I should be able to load North Forks and TSX's to 2400+ fps and with those bullets it should be effective.

A 375 H&H is just plain useful and for my purposes, perfect as a back-up DGR and PG cartridge. If Elephant was my primary target I would be more likely to go with a .458 or bigger round....but I do not feel undergunned shooting 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps.

So, it's time to take a some 404 Js and some 416 Rigby's, load them up with Northfork flat nosed solids and see which penetrates better, the 404J at say 2200fps and the 416 Rigby at say 2400 fps. My money is on the 404J for better penetration at DG distances even though scientific logic may say differently. Anybody have a medium for doing the tests and a testing protocal everyone agrees upon so we can find something to chew over? I own rifles in both calibers, and have the NorthFork bullets, what should I shoot at? At what distance?

I feel that we have an advantage hunters did not have years ago in the way of the premium bullets. Both the softs and the flat nosed solids perform much better then the bullets they had 20 years ago.

465
Thanks
One of the point I was trying to make, was that the 450/400's had a very good rep at its velocity, possibly because its bullets did not fail often. Now a days we have so many good bullets that any of the 40 cals could be loaded to the velocity of the 450/400's and give as good service with low recoil.

My original question was, that a 40cal, 400 gr bullet, at @ 2150 is better for elephant, buff, etc that a 375 H&H, and does it in a rifle that is easier to shoot.

IE what is the most effective softest shooting rifle for DG?.

Many people use a 375 because the normal next step up is a 40cal at @2400, which is also a step up in recoil.

However most people who have a 404 and load it to original 404 velocities, comment on how "soft" it is to shoot.
Now to get a 404 requires some doing, but a 416 is much easier to find. So if you load your 416 to original 404 velocities, is it a better choice that a 375.


I have no doubt that a 450/475 or a 500 is better, but it is heavier and they kick more.

The question is:
Which is better for the BOG stuff a 300gr 375 H&H or a .40 400gr at @2150?

quote:

Rusty's 404Jeffery Bolt is a good example, as was a 416 Rem Mag I once had. Both were very pleasant to shoot.
More comfortable than a 375 H&H.

I have yet to shoot any game with my .404 but I have shot quite a bit with my .375H&H. Both are Brno ZKK602s with near-identical factory stocks.

However, I have shot a number of Big Game Rifle competitions with these rifles, shooting the .375 in Nitro Group 1 and the .404 in Nitro Group Two - so they were shot one after the other and I have repeatedly felt that the .404 was more pleasant to shoot than the .375. It is possible that my handloads are at fault for this (and I am planning on developing my loads further to explore this) but I find it interesting that you have made a similar comment about these calibres.

BwanaBob
Thanks for the info which is especially interesting as your 375 and 404 are nearly identical.

I should add that the loads in my 416 Mag were loaded to original 404 velocities for practice and pigs at the lease.
I even had a 416 Weatherby Mag for a while and shot it with "404" loads.

My thoughts are a person could start out with a 40 cal and load it to 404 specs, then as/if he became more recoil tolerant he could increase the velocity.

Also duplicating 405 Winchester loads with a 300 or even a 350 gr bullet at 2250 to 2300fps would make a good deer/pig/black bear, even elk load, again with moderate recoil.

By NE 450 N02,

The question is:
Which is better for the BOG stuff a 300gr 375 H&H or a .40 400gr at @2150?

No question in my mind. The 450/400 or 404J by far.

465H&H

African Hunter
The reason I say "near full auto Blaser R 93" is that I have seen Aleko "rip off a burst" with a 375 H&H Tracker.

Also, some guys in Africa did a test and the Blaser beat all the other bolt rifles hands down.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Never used a 41 cal on anything dangerous, but I shot a pig with a 416 rigby and it did not die as fast as a kudu shot with a 470. Both died faster than any game I have ever shot with a .375, but that is not proof of anything. Perhaps I will wait until Blaser brings out the 400 H&H to give the .40's a chance.

Is there talk of Blaser coming out with a 400 H&H?

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:


Is there talk of Blaser coming out with a 400 H&H?

Not just talk. They have made the mandril, and one dealer has ordered the entire run of barrels. But don't get antsy just yet, because Blaser is slow and deliberate. It can take them a year to get around to making a standard barrel, so it's hard to say when a new caliber will appear on the scene.

However, Blaser may just breathe life into a cartridge that was otherwise DOA.

The 400H&H Blaser bbl is supposed to be of standard coutour, just like their 10,3x60R, with sights.

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite old TV series, "I Spy," with Robert Culp and Bill Cosby.

RC is in a shoot out with some bad guys. He is leanmiing over the hood of his car with a 44 magnum. He empties the six shooter, and BG's are still un-loading on him, all of them unharmed. RC looks down at his Mod 29, and says to himself, "I gotta get a bigger gun!"

If someone cant hit with a full power 416 or 404 then by all means drop down in power (recoil) so a level you are confident and accurate with.

My life experience has not taught me that a heavier than 300 grain bullet and larger than 375 caliber somehow makes your pea shooter into a dragon slayer. Especially when it is just barely making nitro express velocities.

A low velocity expanding bullet in 40 caliber is going to expand to 60 - 65 caliber if it expands at all. A higher velocity 40 will expand to 70-80 caliber and deffinately expand. Retained weight will be similar since we are smart hunters and use good bullets!

For buffalo none of this may matter other than the buff will bleed to death faster with a full power load.

For elephant, you will be reducing your penetration with a FMJ from a "Best In Class," 416 to something sinmilar to the much maligned 458 win mag. (Without the 458's FA, momentum, or permanant wound cavity). If you and your PH can live with that, I am sure you are better off with more accuracy than more power.

Andy

I often wonder how much of the perceived "killing power" of a cartridge is colored by the amount of sound and fury the rifle/cartridge has on the shooter.

I have no doubt that there are gradients of killing effect such as the difference between a cf .22 and a .270/.30-06 on deer but among classes of weapons appropriately applied: the small bores, mediums, and larges...? The arguments pro and con center around points of minutia and it's easy to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:


Is there talk of Blaser coming out with a 400 H&H?

Not just talk. They have made the mandril, and one dealer has ordered the entire run of barrels. But don't get antsy just yet, because Blaser is slow and deliberate. It can take them a year to get around to making a standard barrel, so it's hard to say when a new caliber will appear on the scene.

However, Blaser may just breathe life into a cartridge that was otherwise DOA.

Which dealer?

bulldog563
Heritage Arms.

I guess the next question must be:

Has any one used the 450/400 or 404 Jeffery, at original specs, shot DG in Africa and been dissapointed?

Gentleman - Just what is the original velocities of the .404 Jeffery? Several here keep referring to it, but haven't seen any numbers posted. I just purchased a CZ .404 Jeff and am curious about this number. I have a great shooting .375 H & H Sako, killed two buff, eland, zebra and an elk as well as other smaller plains game with it. The recoil is really pleasant to the shoulder, so am curious and anxious to compare it to the new .404 Jeff. I don't see myself ever shooting ele or rhino so my thoughts on a .400 calibur was to just bump up a bit for cape buff, bison and water buffalo Thanks.

Larry Sellers

Original velocities are usually stated as 2150fps with a 400 grain bullet. It's not that hard to get 2250fps with a long monolithic solid and 2300fps with jacketed 400 grain is pretty easy as well. Above that, for me at least with French or Vihta powders, requires working at or over the pressure limits I am comfortable with.

I have read the same thing Wink reports any number of times, but the Kynoch website gives the specs as a 400gr bullet at 2125fps out of a 28" barrel.

This is exactly the same as given for the 450/400 NE 3" or 400 Jeffery as it is also known.

JPK