quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Chris,

Although I would sign a waiver, I would never sign an indemnity agreement. If you need insurance then buy insurance, but I think it is poor form to ask the client to indemnify you from the risks that are inherent in your business.

I said in my last post that this was my last comment on this subject but seeing that this post relates to a different issue I will respond.

500 Grains, I respect your opinion about indemnities. It is however standard practice in the SA (and as far as I know pretty much the whole African) safari industry to have indemnities and waivers signed by clients...I do have insurance and I guess so have most other outfits but one can hardly hold an Outfitter / PH responsible for getting bit by a spider / snake or get stuck in a thorn bush...

And of course clients also have the option of buying their own insurance for eventualities beyond their control...

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Chris,

Although I would sign a waiver, I would never sign an indemnity agreement. If you need insurance then buy insurance, but I think it is poor form to ask the client to indemnify you from the risks that are inherent in your business.

It is however standard practice in the SA (and as far as I know pretty much the whole African) safari industry to have indemnities and waivers signed by clients...

I cannot comment on SA, but I have never signed and indemnity agreement, and I will not.

quote:

I do have insurance and I guess so have most other outfits but one can hardly hold an Outfitter / PH responsible for getting bit by a spider / snake or get stuck in a thorn bush...

That is what a waiver for. I will even waive the risk of getting shot by the PH or his staff, the risk of food poisoning, the risk of an auto accident, etc. But you do not need an indemnity agreement to eliminate those risks. Please look up the difference between a waiver and indemnity.

quote:

And of course clients also have the option of buying their own insurance for eventualities beyond their control...

It is fair for a client to purchase his own insurance for his own risks. But an indemnity agreement forces the client to buy insurance for your outfit as well, which is not appropriate.

500 & Chris

This waiver / indemnity thing is quite interesting; My late father was an attorney who was a bit "ouside of the box" in his approach (by example, he was once sued for not paying my varsity subs. He defended the case and told me that if he wins, great. If he loses, he will counter-claim against them for not teaching him law better when he attended years earlier!)

Anyway, back to the point: He explained to me that I can sign those waivers / indemnities as I was only signing on my own behalf. I cannot sign away another person's rights, so if something did happen my wife & kids would still have a valid claim as they had not signed any waivers themselves. I'm not sure if this is legal fact or another of his "own interpretations" of the law!

quote:

He defended the case and told me that if he wins, great. If he loses, he will counter-claim against them for not teaching him law better when he attended years earlier!)

Now that's hilarious!!! Hat's off to your old man.

Mr. Troskie has said he would not reply anymore, and I can't blame him, because I think he regrets raising this thread on AR, for without his original post, none of the issues raised would have made it to AR.

BUT

he has still not adequately responded to several issues:

1. Namibia Hunt with No Trohies for Nearly 2 Years Conveniently, and probably with much drafting ad redrafting, Troskie has presents a fact scenario re the Namibian trophies, which basically says...oh it began as a management hunt, but we shot such nice animals, that the client decided he wanted them, but unfortunately the Namibian PH wanted more money and I left it to the two of them to sort it out.

Here is his exact quote from an earlier posting:

"The Namibian hunt started off as a non-trophy hunt but 404 got some nice animals and the Namibian PH asked 404 how he would like to have the trophies prepared… Granted; this may have brought 404 under the impression that the trophies were exportable… but this can hardly be blamed on me… The first time I learned of 404’s intentions to have the trophies exported was in May last year during yet another one of his tantrums via email. I told him I’ll get in touch with the Namibian PH and find out what he has to say. The PH responded by stating that the hunt was not priced as a trophy hunt from the outset and that additional charges would be payable to have the trophies exported. I requested the PH to get in touch with 404 in this regard and seeing that I did not hear from 404 or have any enquiries regarding his trophies for another full year I assumed the matter had been resolved between him and the Namibian PH. In fact later that same month 404 and his brother hunted with me again and never mentioned the Namibian trophies…"

And here is Troskie email to me on May 14 2008--- 5 weeks ago---: I never told [Namib PH] that you won't be exporting any trophies. What I did tell him was that was that you had originally booked a management hunt and that I was hoping to offer you something in place of the management hunt. If I had indeed told him that you would not be exporting any trophies I fail to see why he would have asked you how you wanted to have the animals skinned... I also don’t know of ANYONE who would hunt a Mountain Zebra as a management hunt... This is something I'll clear up with [Namib PH] soonest...

Game Set Match

What Troskie has posted on the board is an out and out lie and fabrication. Period. He seems to have forgotten he wrote this to me, and seems to have forgotten the quote he sent me for the trip, which I have previously posted on this thread wherein he quotes "trophy" prices.

I have gone through previous emails from Troskie and here are more references to the hunt and its pricing:

April 2007
What is the status of my Namibia trophies? Where are they?
I will be in contact with [Namib PH] today and let you know

Oct 2006

Hey man,
Trust you got home safely. As always I had a great time with you in Namibia – hope you did too.
I’ll be seeing [Namib PH] tomorrow or so to square things up with him
In the meanwhile I’m sending you an invoice for the hunt. I really tried to give you the best deal possible – charged you for the animals at cost and didn’t include my airfare up to Namibia so I hope you’ll be satisfied.
Cheers,

Sept 29 2006
You mentioned before that you may want to visit Namibia to buy some rifles so I spoke to a friend of Piet’s (well that’s if you could call him a “friend†as he is [ ] s ex-husband) who is [ ]’ former son-in-law and also a PH in Namibia . He operates on various concessions up there and says he can put something together for us.
As you know the game is cheap up there e.g. Hartman’s zebra for something like $600, Kudu probably about the same, Gemsbok very cheap, plenty of Springbok and so on.
Would you be interested in doing something like this as opposed to the Kalahari hunt? We probably won’t be able to shoot 22 animals like what you can get in the Kalahari for the same money but it would still be very cool and it won’t be that expensive.


Again- Troskie is caught out and totally BSing me and the Board


I have also previously posted the original quote for this hunt which included the first night stay in the Irene Lodge, but not Troskie posts as if I stiffed him or BS'd him about it. I did pay for my $17 breakfast but the room itself was included in Troskie's bill and paid for by me.



2. Representations About Botswana:

From an email from Troskie:

Hey man,

Just got off the phone with Mr. M-----.

His area in Tuli is open - 12,000 hectares with river frontage and no
internal fences.

Same camp I spoke to you about before - i.e. bushmen trackers, tented camp
etc.

of course, Troskie has previously posted the email he sent to another client on the area:


"I've been hunting this area for the last three years - but I used to do so in a freelance capacity for another outfitter who used to have sole hunting rights on the property. At the end of last year I was fortunate enough to obtain hunting rights of my own from the owner - hence my statement that this is a "new" addition to my hunting areas."

TOTAL BS TOTAL BS TOTAL BS TOTAL BS


definition of area- per Troskie, is the location where he has been hunting "in a free lance capacity for three years for another outfitter", further as "I was able to obtain hunting rights on my own from the owner".

Troskie pulls a Bill Clinton and defines the "area" creatively, which is fine unless you are the poor SOB who believes him- here from an earlier post by Troskie in this thread:


"Clearly I wrote that I have been hunting “the area†for the past 3 years – which is a fact. I did not state that I have been hunting “the property†for 3 years and was referring to the general Tuli area which comprises of several 100’s of Thousands of acres."

Is the "area" owned by the one "owner" you refer to? or did you mis-speak again? In any event, please feel free, as I said before, to prove me wrong by naming the hunts, dates or pointing to photos from your website where you EVER hunted Tuli before....you have not. you forgot we were 'friends" so I know your hunting experience, and the outfitter, Mr. M has never had you guide a single client of his in Tuli or anywhere.

Twisting words and facts again to their torturing and dishonest conclusion.

and hey----where are the bushmen---you BS'd me away from other hunts when after soliciting me time and again to hunt with you I said I was ready for something more open Africa- non farm, and you came up with your BS about "bushmen" and "Hemingway" and "just like Tanzania"...

Where is your response to the bushman Big Man ?

TOTAL BS TOTAL BS TOTAL BS TOTAL BS

Other items:

I have still not seen any quoted email or communication wherein I stated I would interfere with his ability to book on AR - apart from writing to the ONE person he referenced me to sell the same hunt (was this person an AR member? If so---who?) And One person on AR I considered a friend through his postings, where are my efforts to interfere with his ability to sell hunts on AR- that is until he posted this whole mess.


I also am waiting for Zenna's contact information so she can confirm your tale of make up. This litte ditty of your is also total BS----but nice try there pal. If we were friends, as you say, am I the only friend you have who wears make up on hunts- or is this normal for your friends. Any pics of me with makeup eg trophy pics/ No...Silence?

Apart from the many other issues, these two stand out as specific examples of misrepresentations to me by Troskie, which cost me money or which were designed to sell a hunt and take money out of my pocket and out money into Troskie's pocket.

I did see where Troskie posted his unrestricted license- but tell us Troskie, apart from guiding me on the Buff hunt with 2 DG PHs, what other DG hunts have you guided? Why do you have a leopard and an elephant trophy pic on your site? Where did you copy and paste them from? As you have only been PHing for three years, or is it four now, and apart from sending the guy up to Moz to shoot the croc without you, you have not guided a hunt outside RSA---oh that's right, except for me in Namib and Tuli--so where does this DG experience come from?

So instead of trying to portray me again and again as a whiner, a make up wearing train wreck, please answer the issues re Namibia and Botswana.

He is a BSer and will say or do just about anything for a booking- Troskie- you should have just left this to personal emails...I am sure you regret raising all this in the first place.

404WJJ I don't post much over here, I don't know you and I don't know the PH. But I think it's time to back out of this one.

From what I've seen so far many of the things you've accused the PH of was unfounded - him not being DG qualified just being one of them.

Why hunt with him 8 times if you knew all these things???

You do seem to be spending a helluva lot of time defending the makeup issue...and I think everyone is getting tired of this thread now.

Hell hath no fury like a cross-dresser scorned, or cheated on.

Who was the mascara for? A "tip" for the PH's consort?

The PH's (PLURAL) here are cheats, that is for sure, in many ways, if even half of either side of this is true.

Back peddling on the "management hunt" to make it a "trophy hunt" after marginal "trophies" (nothing to write home about) are on the ground ... that is cheating, greedy.

Selling any hunt in the Tuli Block of Botswana as if it had any remote association to other than a cattle-fenced farm hunt: that is phoney baloney. I have been there and done that.

I am just a little guy who must be ever vigilant of con men wanting more money.

I would be pissed off too, and I do not even wear mascara, rouge, or lipstick when I hunt.

What's with all this crap about makeup?

Are there any "Cliff Notes" to this story? jorge

Sorry, Jorge. You'll have to wade through it like the rest of us. What better could you have to do on a weekend? Good luck to you.

David Walker

quote:

Originally posted by x2mosg:
Sorry, Jorge. You'll have to wade through it like the rest of us. What better could you have to do on a weekend? Good luck to you

David Walker

i agree with jorge. these last few posts are real teasers and raise my curiosity but i think x2mosg is flat wrong- it would take more than a weekend to wade through this crap. even with comfortable hip boots, this a 4-5 day slog!! jerry

I'm with jorge too. Just too much crap involved with this. I've tried to skim over it, but I really got lost when cosmetics got involved.

I think its got all kinds of drama. Just needs a good screenwriter.

Apparently some people have too much time on their hands.

Wasn't that a song?

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
Mr. Troskie has said he would not reply anymore, and I can't blame him, because I think he regrets raising this thread on AR, for without his original post, none of the issues raised would have made it to AR.

"He regrets,"? You're kidding! All involved in this Soap Opera don't regret it? 404, you should feel humiliated. Do your peers, family and neighbors know about this thread? If they did could you hold your head up? This thread has been entertaining from a sadistic point of view but very un dignified.

If it matters any, 404 you have badly damaged your reputation as a client hunter,( who would want to book you following your Boet Noel/ Chris Troskie saga,) and certainly some of the outfitters involved with this sewage haven't bettered themselves to potential client hunters like myself.

Hey, keep it up as far as I'm concerned. This is kinda like watching "Jerry Springer".

Well I seem to have been implicated in this story to a greater degree than is warranted by the facts, which are:

1. 404 is not a client of mine, and the only interaction I have had with him regarding a booking was a PM from him requesting further info about a cow buff/tuskless hunt in Zim that I had offered on AR. This was to have been an add-on to his unhappy first hunt in Botswana with Mr. Troskie where the wife/cook thing happened as well as the 47" kudu (and I apologize if I got that confused with the Namibia hunt, easy to do and in any case of no consequence..the issue/principle is still the same). For whatever reason, the discussion re this Zim hunt never went very far. We may also have discussed a posting of mine on BF many moons ago, I don't recall specifically, but since this was a "chasse libre" hunt, it was not a client-agent discussion.

2. My interest in this thread stems from the fact that Mr. Troskie's posting starts with an excerpt from my own thread (404's contribution to that thread) about the state of the professional hunting industry, and he even went so far as to borrow the title of my thread "We Suck" for his own thread "We all Suck, or Do We? The Other Side of the Coin".

3. I have also proposed, in another thread, a code of conduct regarding the airing of dirty laundry on this and similar fora. This is a good case study by which to judge the practicality of my suggested code. I will comment below on the degree to which I think (or don't think) this thread is consistent with that code.

4. I am not, by posting on this thread, specifically trying to get a booking from 404 or from other AR members for that matter. I have merely summarized 404's allegations against Mr. Troskie, and Mr. Troskie's allegations against 404, with comments where appropriate, in order to try to bring this discussion to a point. It's become almost impossible to follow due to all kinds of red herrings, rolling waves of allegations and counter-allegations, and the many different hunts and dates involved. If Mr. Troskie disagrees with my summary, he is free to correct it and he has done so; as has 404.

5. I don't have a specific agenda to gain advantage by putting Mr. Troskie down, nor do I believe I have done so other than by repeating/summarizing 404's "case" for sake of clarity. Note, I also summarize Mr. Troskie's "case". Furthermore, there are probably a thousand PHs in RSA and the chances that I would gain any business if one of them, ie. Mr. Troskie were to go out of business are extremely remote. Selling $5000 PG hunts in RSA is not where the action is anyway.

So at this point, I would like to reflect on the degree to which this thread does or does not follow the "code of conduct" I posted recently in an attempt to answer questions from Kudude among other people as to how disputes should be handled/settled.

First, I think 404 should drop the 47" Kudu allegations altogether, as he accepted the $100 "discount" on the $1400 trophy fee he was initially charged, to settle this point. In my code, I say that if a point is settled in the field, then both parties should keep their mouths shut forever after. In the same vein, Mr. Troskie should drop the cancelled hunt lament, as he admits that cancellation fees were paid and/or the deposits were applied to future hunts by mutual agreement. The deposit on the Moz hunt may be a legitimate topic as the PH says the client reneged on payment of the $1000 fee, whereas the client admits he did not pay the fee (to a third party) but did so with the approval of Mr. Troskie. So if Mr. Troskie can show that he is out the $1000, then it's OK for him to bring this up.

Second, I think that NO MATTER WHAT, Mr. Troskie should refrain from posting embarrassing and humiliating information about his client. That's taboo, very similar to attorney-client privilege, or doctor-patient confidentiality. I think it's very poor judgement on the part of the PH...no client wants to read about his failings or specific faux-pas on the internet. Mr. Troskie, by doing this you have scared the heck out of a lot of potential clients. And if any of this stuff is exaggerated, twisted, or outright false, that's beyond the pale.

Third, I think it's OK for 404 to post about his trophies from Namibia, an issue that Mr. Troskie characterizes as an issue between 404 and the Namibian PH. I don't see it that way...Mr. Troskie needs to handle his subcontractor in Namibia. Everyone agrees that 404 paid for the trophies, the issue of caping was discussed, and as long as 404 is willing to pay for dip and pack, it seems to me he should be entitled to the export of those trophies no matter how modest they are. If Mr. Troskie has his own facts that he would like to present to justify the withholding of the trophies, then by all means he should do so. Normally, something as important as export/no export is specifically spelled out in the contract/emails, and it's also normally only an issue when the animal is subject to a (limited) CITES quota.

Fourth, I believe it's OK for 404 to list other issues he had with Mr. Troskie over the years regarding cooks and cooking, the PH representing an item on the bill to be "at cost" when in fact it's marked up heavily, overselling hunts etc. These allegations are relevant, of legitimate interest to readers of this forum, and should be sorted through.

Of course, while it's not OK to air the dirty laundry about the client as the opening salvo clearly does, it is OK for Mr. Troskie to correct factual misstatements made by the client in his complaints, such as his qualifications to hunt DG and the number of "indemnity" agreements signed by the client to the extent that they deal with the photo/website controversy.

Given the risk of being criticized by others (as one poster of clearly superior intellect and morals has already done) for taking sides, or of being accused of lacking sufficient intellect to act as the arbitrator here, or worse being viewed as long-winded and boring, I am not going to continue with my analysis, but rather leave it to the readers of this thread to reflect on the tone, substance, veracity and good/bad taste of the allegations and counter-allegations in this thread.

I will add a few personal conclusions, to which I feel entitled having spent quite a bit of time trying to follow and sort through this thread: I wouldn't book Neal or Manion, but I would book 404 (and if he wants to wear cosmetics while hunting, I would compliment him on his camo), subject to the proviso that if any disputes come up and are settled, that will be the end of it, and if no dispute is raised in the field, then we are agreed that there is no such dispute; I don't and would not send a client of mine to hunt with a SA PH in any country other than SA; I do and will make sure the client knows whether he is hunting on fenced private land, unfenced private land, or a gov't/community concession; if trophies are not exportable, I do and will spell that out in writing before taking a deposit; I do and will make sure the cancellation policies are agreed up front; and above I do and will not leave the client expecting A when I know he will get B.

A final pair of take-aways:

Hunters, as I have stated elsewhere, don't book a hunt in a given country through a PH in a second country - that accomplishes nothing; know what you are buying and how much you are expected to pay, and what the parties' roles are with respect to trophies; when a PH or outfitter says he is offering something "at cost", caveat emptor; try to settle minor disputes in person, it's a lot easier to do that before money changes hands; and finally don't see the hunt through if there is clear misrepresentation.

PH's/Outfitters: if you deliver what you contracted to deliver and the client pays his bill, then move on and keep your mouth shut about the client; don't get too dependent on one client; don't ask clients for loans; don't try to sell meat and pototoes as filet mignon; and if you have an unresolved issue and the client posts it online, stick to correcting factual misreprentations. And for God's sake, remember that this is the client's hunt and not a family trip or worse, an opportunity to get in the sack with a tart while you are away from home.

And how better to end than with a disclaimer: there will be some who think it's presumptuous or disingenuous of me to offer advice or (God forbid) to pass judgement. To them I say, there is no charge so you are welcome. There will be others who say that all my postings are part of some grand scheme to put my competition out of business and take all the clients for myself. To them I say, if you go through life with an attitude like that, you will probably die early from the unnecessary stress of wondering how everyone you encounter is trying to steal your money.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:


Second, I think that NO MATTER WHAT, Mr. Troskie should refrain from posting embarrassing and humiliating information about his client. That's taboo, very similar to attorney-client privilege, or doctor-patient confidentiality. I think it's very poor judgement on the part of the PH...no client wants to read about his failings or specific faux-pas on the internet.

I agree but it works both ways.if the client is prepared to go that route why not his ph. if you could hear what happens on hunting trips you will be shocked and it is kept in confidence by the ph very little is leaked. what happens on the hunt stays on the hunt. This is an open forum and not nail the PH forum. there is bad ph's and clients and it is up to every person to seek the truth and not to make assumptions. integrity is something money cant buy.

Russ,
Thanks for the Cliff notes.
Now I hope this thread dies or somebody kills it.

This thing is like a train wreck. I don't want to read it, but I can't help myself. Please make it go away!

quote:

Originally posted by Greg R:
This thing is like a train wreck. I don't want to read it, but I can't help myself. Please make it go away!

I'm with you!

Well jeeezishcriminy girls,, if you are all so offended by this little old story WELL THEN QUIT CLICKING ON IT!!!
I personally believe that the ONLY mistake that Chris has made is getting into an arguement with a lawyer.
404 is a professional lier and has the document to prove it.

THE END.

"Like sand through the hourglass..."

Brian

Reads like the perfect match-up for an inaugural Accurate Reloading UFC contest.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Well I seem to have been implicated in this story to a greater degree than is warranted by the facts, which are:

1. 404 is not a client of mine, and the only interaction I have had with him regarding a booking was a PM from him requesting further info about a cow buff/tuskless hunt in Zim that I had offered on AR. This was to have been an add-on to his unhappy first hunt in Botswana with Mr. Troskie where the wife/cook thing happened as well as the 47" kudu (and I apologize if I got that confused with the Namibia hunt, easy to do and in any case of no consequence..the issue/principle is still the same). For whatever reason, the discussion re this Zim hunt never went very far. We may also have discussed a posting of mine on BF many moons ago, I don't recall specifically, but since this was a "chasse libre" hunt, it was not a client-agent discussion.

2. My interest in this thread stems from the fact that Mr. Troskie's posting starts with an excerpt from my own thread (404's contribution to that thread) about the state of the professional hunting industry, and he even went so far as to borrow the title of my thread "We Suck" for his own thread "We all Suck, or Do We? The Other Side of the Coin".

3. I have also proposed, in another thread, a code of conduct regarding the airing of dirty laundry on this and similar fora. This is a good case study by which to judge the practicality of my suggested code. I will comment below on the degree to which I think (or don't think) this thread is consistent with that code.

4. I am not, by posting on this thread, specifically trying to get a booking from 404 or from other AR members for that matter. I have merely summarized 404's allegations against Mr. Troskie, and Mr. Troskie's allegations against 404, with comments where appropriate, in order to try to bring this discussion to a point. It's become almost impossible to follow due to all kinds of red herrings, rolling waves of allegations and counter-allegations, and the many different hunts and dates involved. If Mr. Troskie disagrees with my summary, he is free to correct it and he has done so; as has 404.

5. I don't have a specific agenda to gain advantage by putting Mr. Troskie down, nor do I believe I have done so other than by repeating/summarizing 404's "case" for sake of clarity. Note, I also summarize Mr. Troskie's "case". Furthermore, there are probably a thousand PHs in RSA and the chances that I would gain any business if one of them, ie. Mr. Troskie were to go out of business are extremely remote. Selling $5000 PG hunts in RSA is not where the action is anyway.

So at this point, I would like to reflect on the degree to which this thread does or does not follow the "code of conduct" I posted recently in an attempt to answer questions from Kudude among other people as to how disputes should be handled/settled.

First, I think 404 should drop the 47" Kudu allegations altogether, as he accepted the $100 "discount" on the $1400 trophy fee he was initially charged, to settle this point. In my code, I say that if a point is settled in the field, then both parties should keep their mouths shut forever after. In the same vein, Mr. Troskie should drop the cancelled hunt lament, as he admits that cancellation fees were paid and/or the deposits were applied to future hunts by mutual agreement. The deposit on the Moz hunt may be a legitimate topic as the PH says the client reneged on payment of the $1000 fee, whereas the client admits he did not pay the fee (to a third party) but did so with the approval of Mr. Troskie. So if Mr. Troskie can show that he is out the $1000, then it's OK for him to bring this up.

Second, I think that NO MATTER WHAT, Mr. Troskie should refrain from posting embarrassing and humiliating information about his client. That's taboo, very similar to attorney-client privilege, or doctor-patient confidentiality. I think it's very poor judgement on the part of the PH...no client wants to read about his failings or specific faux-pas on the internet. Mr. Troskie, by doing this you have scared the heck out of a lot of potential clients. And if any of this stuff is exaggerated, twisted, or outright false, that's beyond the pale.

Third, I think it's OK for 404 to post about his trophies from Namibia, an issue that Mr. Troskie characterizes as an issue between 404 and the Namibian PH. I don't see it that way...Mr. Troskie needs to handle his subcontractor in Namibia. Everyone agrees that 404 paid for the trophies, the issue of caping was discussed, and as long as 404 is willing to pay for dip and pack, it seems to me he should be entitled to the export of those trophies no matter how modest they are. If Mr. Troskie has his own facts that he would like to present to justify the withholding of the trophies, then by all means he should do so. Normally, something as important as export/no export is specifically spelled out in the contract/emails, and it's also normally only an issue when the animal is subject to a (limited) CITES quota.

Fourth, I believe it's OK for 404 to list other issues he had with Mr. Troskie over the years regarding cooks and cooking, the PH representing an item on the bill to be "at cost" when in fact it's marked up heavily, overselling hunts etc. These allegations are relevant, of legitimate interest to readers of this forum, and should be sorted through.

Of course, while it's not OK to air the dirty laundry about the client as the opening salvo clearly does, it is OK for Mr. Troskie to correct factual misstatements made by the client in his complaints, such as his qualifications to hunt DG and the number of "indemnity" agreements signed by the client to the extent that they deal with the photo/website controversy.

Given the risk of being criticized by others (as one poster of clearly superior intellect and morals has already done) for taking sides, or of being accused of lacking sufficient intellect to act as the arbitrator here, or worse being viewed as long-winded and boring, I am not going to continue with my analysis, but rather leave it to the readers of this thread to reflect on the tone, substance, veracity and good/bad taste of the allegations and counter-allegations in this thread.

I will add a few personal conclusions, to which I feel entitled having spent quite a bit of time trying to follow and sort through this thread: I wouldn't book Neal or Manion, but I would book 404 (and if he wants to wear cosmetics while hunting, I would compliment him on his camo), subject to the proviso that if any disputes come up and are settled, that will be the end of it, and if no dispute is raised in the field, then we are agreed that there is no such dispute; I don't and would not send a client of mine to hunt with a SA PH in any country other than SA; I do and will make sure the client knows whether he is hunting on fenced private land, unfenced private land, or a gov't/community concession; if trophies are not exportable, I do and will spell that out in writing before taking a deposit; I do and will make sure the cancellation policies are agreed up front; and above I do and will not leave the client expecting A when I know he will get B.

A final pair of take-aways:

Hunters, as I have stated elsewhere, don't book a hunt in a given country through a PH in a second country - that accomplishes nothing; know what you are buying and how much you are expected to pay, and what the parties' roles are with respect to trophies; when a PH or outfitter says he is offering something "at cost", caveat emptor; try to settle minor disputes in person, it's a lot easier to do that before money changes hands; and finally don't see the hunt through if there is clear misrepresentation.

PH's/Outfitters: if you deliver what you contracted to deliver and the client pays his bill, then move on and keep your mouth shut about the client; don't get too dependent on one client; don't ask clients for loans; don't try to sell meat and pototoes as filet mignon; and if you have an unresolved issue and the client posts it online, stick to correcting factual misreprentations. And for God's sake, remember that this is the client's hunt and not a family trip or worse, an opportunity to get in the sack with a tart while you are away from home.

And how better to end than with a disclaimer: there will be some who think it's presumptuous or disingenuous of me to offer advice or (God forbid) to pass judgement. To them I say, there is no charge so you are welcome. There will be others who say that all my postings are part of some grand scheme to put my competition out of business and take all the clients for myself. To them I say, if you go through life with an attitude like that, you will probably die early from the unnecessary stress of wondering how everyone you encounter is trying to steal your money.

Mr Gould, yours are some of the very few posts that had any relevance to the topic.Thanks.

I have no dog in this fight,I know none of you,never been to Africa except the desire to go one day.I followed this thread regularly.I thought it's just another internet fight that does not need any involvement.But, it kept pricking me.

Here is what I feel.

1.It's Mr Troskie who brought this issue on to the public forum and he should tackle the issues raised by 404 to the end instead of opting out.
2.404 did post emails written by Troskie wherein he,Mr Troskie,acknowledges the problem with the trophies.

3.I think the client have a right to request not to bring along any person who may diminish the enjoyment of the hunting experience and that request seem not to have been respected.

4.Finally, many people needlessly badmouthed 404 or casted slurs on his sexuality.But,I find it a bit surprising that the person who was enraged by the purported insult to his friend by 404 should keep silent after the email that shows Mr Troskie abusing Jacko Human and in fact accusing him of stealing a client.Mr Troskie did apologise on this very topic.

When the topic started I was quite sympathetic to Mr Troskie,but as it progressed,I lost it.

Sorry folks, did not intend to hurt any one or patronise.That's how I feel.

Best-
Locksley,R.

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:

3.I think the client have a right to request not to bring along any person who may diminish the enjoyment of the hunting experience and that request seem not to have been respected.

That is a good point. The client is paying for a vacation and he should not be forced into an obnoxious association.

Saeed, Thanks for letting this thread finish out. I now know who I will and will not book or hunt with. There has been golddigging, agents sticking up for agents and all kinds of other shit going on. As I see it, 404 did what he did for trying to get his trophys back and not to be taken advantage of again. It definetly was not for money. Just my 2 cents worth.

I’m sure this topic is no longer of any interest to anyone and I have no desire to drag this out any further. But seeing that, over and above the comments from certain individuals (amongst others stating that I should address the facts) I have also received several private enquiries from members who asked for clarification on certain issues… As there are certain misinterpretations I feel it should be addressed:

By “opting out†(as one poster described it) I was not running away from anybody or anything. But in my opinion it is senseless to enter into a: “he said this and he said that…†debate on a public forum… especially when the “proof†relies (to a large degree) on private discussions between two individuals who are clearly no longer friends… 404 is a former prosecutor, lawyer and a master at twisting the facts… It is therefore senseless for me to get into arguments with him on the internet (this was proven in the thread about Boet Nel 2 years ago and has again been proven in this thread)…


The “prostitute / cook†issue…

I never stated or admitted that the cook was a prostitute. “The Cook†was cooking for 404 on this 3rd hunt (for Cape Buffalo) with me in March 2006... If he was really so disgusted with her cooking, with me and with my association to her why not raise it back then? – Why only raise it on a public forum in May 2008 after another 5 hunts??? The cook was not then – nor is she now a prostitute. I was a bachelor… it was winter… it was cold… she was there…SO WHAT??? If he was so “taken aback†with the whole issue and if I had really asked him not to talk about the cook to my ex girlfriend… why book not 1 but indeed 5 more hunts with me AFTER this so-called lunch???

The Namibian Trophies…

Did I really BS 404 “time and time again†about the status of his Namibian Trophies? Strange that I should have only 2 emails from him regarding this issue… Does 2 emails over a space of 2 years warrant the phrase: “time and time again?â€

The Namibian hunt was not offered as a trophy hunt and 404 knew this. I did not force 404 away from the cull hunt he had invited me on… I specifically told him in our initial correspondence that I could not beat the cull hunt deal he got in the Kalahari and that I would understand if he’d rather take that hunt because it was cheaper.

And even though I did not sell the Namibian hunt as an exportable trophy hunt; I told the Namibian PH from the outset that there was a possibility the client might want to export some of the trophies - especially the Mountain Zebra he hunted (but unfortunately wounded and lost)... So no; indeed I did not tell the Namibian PH 404 didn’t want to export any trophies as per one of my TWO emails to him in this regard... The Namibian PH even asked 404 how he would like to have his trophies skinned! If I had indeed booked a strictly non-exportable hunt with the PH there would have been no reason to ask the client how he would like to have his trophies skinned would there?

404 claims the Namibian PH won’t export the trophies because “I didn’t pay him enough†– which is a misrepresentation on 404’s part. The Namibian PH and I agreed on his daily rates and trophy fees and these are the fees I paid over to him… + an extra approximately $800. There was never an issue afterwards between the Namibian PH and me regarding payment – in fact we had dinner together almost a year after 404’s hunt talking about future hunts together... 404’s claim that “I did not pay the PH enough†is devoid of all truth. I paid the PH what he originally quoted me PLUS I added some extra. My question is whether it would make sense for me to book a non-trophy hunt and then sell it as a trophy hunt to a client??? Not even a complete fool would think of doing something as stupid as that! – Especially if the client is a frequent, well paying client as 404 indeed was at the time!

BUT; 404 in his wisdom opted to write to the Namibian PH 2 years after the hunt and told him he had left a $1,000 tip for him with me… WHICH WAS A LIE!!! I cannot blame the Namibian PH for being upset about this… in fact so would I have been… Both 404 and I know (and I have the email correspondence to prove it) that he NEVER LEFT A $1,000 tip for the Namibian PH…So quite frankly… where previously I was willing to assist 404 with this issue I’ll now leave it up to him and the Namibian PH to resolve matters between themselves… and this IS something I will walk away from with no regrets…

The Botswana Hunt, my ALLEGED ignoring of his request not to take my wife with and the Kudu Trophy Fee…

404 tried to change the topic and ridiculing / embarrassing me by posting pvt email correspondence between us… But he has to date failed to post a copy of the correspondence wherein he “specifically asked me not to take my wife alongâ€â€¦ Why? Simple… because HE NEVER MADE SUCH A REQUEST!!! Had he done so I would either have adhered to his request… as I did when he and his brother came over in 2007… or I would not have taken the booking… BTW 404 DID ask me not to bring my wife with on the 2007 hunt... Then he was unhappy with the black cook's cooking abilities upon which I responded jokingly that this is why I wanted to take my wife with... His response was that the reason he asked me not to bring along my wife was because his brother is a "ladies man" and he didn't want any uneasiness in camp between his brother and my wife... I had NO reason to think his 15 year old son would pose a threat in this regard during the 2008 hunt!!! He admitted that he received an email from me wherein I stated that my wife would be doing the cooking on this particular hunt… but he claims he missed it…

Here’s an excerpt from the relevant correspondence:

-----Original Message-----
From: (404WJJeffrey)
To: ctsafaris@aol.com
Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:25 pm
Subject: Re:

“CHris

it sounds really good......would like a sable though, hyena, but bushpig is enough of a reason to go

ctsafaris@aol.com wrote:
I'll call Sandy and ask if there are anything else on offer.

They have their own chef in camp but I was thinking of letting Sabina take care of the cooking (or at least keeping an eye on things).

Will stay in touch.

Cheers,

-----Original Message-----
From: (404WJJeffrey)
To: ctsafaris@aol.com
Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:25 am
Subject: Re:
just got this email ok, if you sent from the other email it will be interesting to see when it arrives

We are fine just out of the house and it is a pain

I am mullin gthe Sandy thing over, it is ggod because it is the type of camp etc, I want, the only neg is except for the bushpig, it is all animanls I have shot many times....not worries though give me a day or so to mull it over BTW who will be the chef?

Thank youâ€

He asked me who would be doing the cooking, I replied that my wife would be taking care of it and he responded that it “sounds really goodâ€. So who is to blame? Me who told him well in advance that my wife would be there or HE who even though he “missed†my mail wrote “it sounds really goodâ€??? I agree 100% that it is a paying client’s prerogative to decide who should go along on a hunt and who not… But 404 NEVER asked that my wife should not go with!

Kudu Trophy Fee

404 was quoted a TF of $1,300 for Kudu before the Botswana hunt and this is what he was invoiced for and paid. As proof of this I copied and pasted directly from an email I sent him in an earlier post. How is this relevant? Because he claims that I discounted the Kudu TF with $100 after he told me he was unhappy with the size of the kudu. He NEVER raised ANY issues with me face-to-face during the hunt or on the last day when he paid his invoice. He states that I knew he was unsatisfied with his Kudu and then gave him $100 discount off the trophy fee. This is a lie, the point was NOT settled in the field… in fact; there was no “point†at all in the field… The matter was first raised via email a week after his return to the US… 404 blatantly lied about this aspect as he did about several others…

So why bring this issue to the board? Well, this thread was inspired by a post of 404 on another thread of Russ Gould’s wherein 404 made certain allegations against “a PH who also posts here†– thereby sending an open invite to everyone to contact him and find out who exactly this PH is. We also know that he did indeed contact other members privately… and in view of his private threats to me that he would run my business into the ground and the fact that I cannot defend myself against allegations he makes against me privately, I opted to come out into the open and share my version of the events with everyone.

It might have been “unnecessary†for me to refer to 404’s use of mascara and eyeliner... Maybe it was a little TOO personal… but I certainly did not suck this from my thumb… I have to admit that I found it interesting that the same person who was taking mascara and eyeliner with on safari also developed issues with every single person of the female gender that was associated to me which I introduced him to… And of course I drew my own conclusions in the process… So maybe it was irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things but the point I was making from the outset was that 404’s sudden dislike in me has nothing to do with hunting…

When a client has a bad experience with a PH it is his right to share details with others but at the same token it should be a PH’s right to defend himself. Not all PH’s are honest and trustworthy people but neither are all clients… And when the same client develops issues with just about every single PH he hunts with surely that should raise some eyebrows… especially if the PH’s get excellent reviews from everyone else he hunts with…

As stated earlier; no one knows who 404 really is. EVERYONE around here knows who Chris Troskie is… I didn’t invite people to go to my website and see pictures of 404… HE DID.

I can highlight several examples of how 404 with his legal (prosecuting) experience can twist facts but will stick to these:

He claims I “knocked†the price for kudu down from $1,750 to $1,400 and then down to $1,300 after “further protestâ€. He even posts copies of email correspondence in support of this claim… Yes; I did indeed originally quote him $1,750 for the Kudu. Why? Because that was the price that the other Outfitter had quoted me. When the Outfitter heard that I was dealing with 404 he refused to do business with him again (having had experience with 404’s Mozambique hunt cancellation last year) and he subsequently referred me to the landowner direct on provision that he got the outstanding $1,000 cancelation fee for the Mozambique hunt back. Because I could “cut out the middle man†(the other Outfitter) I could offer better TF’s. The TF I offered 404 for Kudu was $1,300 – as per his and my post. There’s NO email wherein I quoted him $1,400 for a kudu. In his first post he claimed that I made him pay $1,300 for a non-trophy kudu – EXACTLY what I had quoted him. The TF for Kudu on his invoice was $1,300 – exactly what I had quoted him. SO WHERE DID I KNOCK DOWN THE PRICE OF THE KUDU WITH A $100??? Later he claims he does not believe that I ever paid the $1,000 cancellation fee over to the other Outfitter in spite of being in possession of a copy of the receipt for the electronic bank transfer I made to the Outfitter’s account… Which begs the question: who exactly is a “lying sack of sh*t†as 404 so eloquently put it??? and who exactly is “twisting the factsâ€?

He claims that in spite of him paying $700p/d for his hunt I still charged him an extra $75p/d for the replacement hunt – sweeping under the floor the fact that the $700p/d was payable for a 2X1 hunt which he had originally booked i.e. $350p/p/d… People; I did not cancel the hunt! HE DID!!! ONE DAY BEFORE HE WAS DUE TO ARRIVE!!! It was not ME who couldn’t find anyone to come with him on the replacement hunt nor was it my responsibility… It was HIS.

So he posts the email wherein I offered to write to the Botswana landowner and tell him about his son’s illness as “proof†that I knew his son was indeed sick… What should I have written to him? That I’ll write to the landowner, tell him that 404’s son was homesick, that this was the real reason for the hunt cancellation and ask him if we could book another hunt???

In a pvt email to me he states that the Namibian PH claimed I never gave him his $1,000 tip but he knows and I know that he NEVER left $1,000 for the Namibian PH. I have email correspondence that proves this… He twists the facts by claiming I didn’t pay the Namibian PH enough for a trophy hunt. Yet; I have email correspondence and documentary evidence that proves I paid the Namibian PH exactly what he had quoted me PLUS $800 more…which I did out of my own free will and as token of my appreciation for his help.

He claims I am not DG qualified… when I post a copy of my unrestricted permit (which can only be applied for with documentary proof that one has guided for DG in the presence of an unrestricted licence holder for at least 60 days) he asks for pictures of DG hunts that I have guided and claims that the only DG hunt I’ve ever guided was his buffalo hunt with two other DG qualified PH’s. He fails to mention that one of the “two DG qualified PH’s†on his buff hunt was in fact carrying a video camera and not a rifle... TWISTING THE FACTS!!! He also fails to mention that it is pretty much standard practice to have a back-up PH with when hunting DG… hence the reason for arranging that an extra PH be available on his Elephant hunt… I have permission from ALL the clients whose pictures are on my website to post their pictures. It would be unethical for me to post pictures of clients whom I guided in a freelance capacity on my website or over here. (This privilege belongs to the Outfitters whom I hunted for and I have NO intention in involving them in this).

Same applies to his statement that I don’t have 7 indemnities that covers usage of his photographs… Because I’ve only sent him one signed indemnity he assumes I only have one and then posts about it… which prompts me to post two more in public…Where is his response to this? Or is he now going to say I only have three and not seven? Or is he now going to post excerpts from another unrelated email I sent him in order to humiliate me?

And then his comment about the Botswana camp not being comparable to Tanzania… HAS HE EVER BEEN TO TANZANIA? … My wife LIVED in a hunting safari camp in Tanzania for THREE years… So who exactly is better experienced to make comparisons? In my and my wife’s opinion the Botswana camp resembles camps found in Tanzania, Mozambique (where I HAVE been) and Zimbabwe and with a hunting area of some 30,000 acres in size it makes for excellent hunting… Of course it IS not Tanzania… but at a Daily Rate of $350p/d with no licence fees on trophies etc. it is a heck of a lot cheaper than Tanzania!

These are the facts… and quite frankly I don’t care who believes me and who believes him. Fortunately; since this post was started I’ve had several enquiries from AR members and several words of support from others who were clearly NOT put off by this post or by the unfound allegations that 404 has been making against me – something that I’m very thankful for. Over 4 years of running my own safari company this was the FIRST client who EVER had ANY complaints about me or my operation. Isn’t it just a little awkward that it took him 8 hunts to come to the conclusion that I’m dishonest, unfaithful, lazy, mediocre etc??? This had NOTHING to do with hunting… It had EVERYTHING to do with a man who thought that money can buy everything (including people)… and who finally came to the conclusion it CANNOT.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

ctsafaris@aol.com wrote:
I'll call Sandy and ask if there are anything else on offer.

Just for interest sake, what is Sandy´s full name? Sandy McDonald, the notorious canned lion hunter?

Back to the original question.............after browsing through all the above.........yes, we all suck.

I see that this thread has come alive again.

First, I hold my head high as a former prosecutor and lawyer. I tried more than 70 cases to verdict, with a good many of them serious felonies, child molests, robberies, burglaries, car thefts, ADWs, and homicides. I have spent a lot of time with victims and their families, and have the highest reverence for the truth and law and order. I suppose I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder when someone is taken advantage of, myself included. No one worked harder or pushed harder in preparation or trying a case than I did- since leaving the DA's office, I have practiced primarily corporate law, and the past few years I have transitioned into the formation and management of start-ups. We create jobs, develop technology and contribute to society- and to the taxman as well..no apologies here. I have endeavored to take each point made in this thread and respond in a straightforward and logical manner. That shouldn't bother anyone. I do take my hat off to Troskie, he is quite the acrobat with his facts, and apparently does not read my earlier posts with quoted emails. Perhaps he should change his name to Bill Clinton- as he has no problem saying up is down with a straight face.

I am a bit more troubled by the recurring theme about women, and make up and not liking the women in his life. I never said anything, as I recall, personally against Charmaine, but I was put off at Troskie's ethics, especially when he started out questioning whether I was a "man" or a 'gentleman". She was not on the buff hunt ( a short 3 day event, but joined us later in the hunt, and reappeared, if memory serves me, on the next hunt as well. After that, I don't recall seeing her. His wife is another matter, and already discussed. I think it is fair to say that I should not, as a paying client, have my requests to leave wives and girlfriends off the hunt denied, for reasons previously stated.

Oddly, Troskie seems to think this is some sort of jealous behavior on my part, or an indication that I think I can "buy" people. As stated earlier, if Troskie chafes at client requests, he is in the wrong business.

The rest of the points addressed by Troskie's most recent posting have already been taken on directly by me, and with appropriate email quotes as back up.

-The Namibian hunt was a fiasco, and I did leave A $1200 tip to be divided between Troskie and the Namibian PH in Troskie's discretion. As I understand his statements to me in person and via email, he did not share the tip at all. He also told me face to face he thought the Namibian PH was asking for more money because in the end he felt Troskie under priced the hunt and that the Namibian PH felt he was not paid enough. Separate issues entirely then whether the hunt was quoted to me as a trophy hunt, which it was, and which I have documented.

Bottom line, the hunt trophies are not in my possession, and there is a lack of responsibility being taken by the booking PH ie Troskie.

-Regarding Charmaine, I did not "pull the prostitute label out of my thumb"...he told me she was, and supplied details eg the Malt Shop by a benefactor, etc.

-About the kudu, even I can't follow the steps and points he attempts to make about this and that, quoted here and there etc. I stand by my original version of the incident.

For those who wrote him in support and want to book with him, bear in mind that for this PH at least, 47 inches is a trophy kudu- so start your hunt with that as an expectation of success, at least according to your PH.

-I am also shaking my head at the claim that my brother is a "ladies man", but it is ok to bring his wife when my son hunts...I don't know what the point is- I do know my point is I do not care to have girlfriends, wives or mistresses along on my hunt, and I made that very clear, and it was ignored. I asked, as the quoted email points out, who the chef will be, and in a follow up telephone conversation, asked that he not bring his wife- my second request on a hunt not to bring her- but apparently he did not care to honor this request, as he did my earlier one on the hunt with my brother.

-The Botswana hunt was quoted and sold as a "wild" hunt with San trackers. It is a farm hunt with the San long ago moving on....anything for a booking. Another earlier poster noted that the Tuli hunts should not be touted as anything other than farm hunts, because they are- large farms, but also with roads, fences, cattle, etc. The Tuli farm has a road traveled by locals as well as truckers, and early morning one hears a steady stream of traffic even when in camp. Yes, sound travels far, but it is not "wild Africa" and it is simply BS to lure people there claiming it is. BTW the quoted daily rate is $400 per day, not $350, but that is just another fact that happened to be misstated in Troskie's favor.

-And Still no response to his total BS claim to me in selling the hunt that we would have San Trackers, conjuring up images of wild Africa....I am hunting 21 days in the Selous later this year, so then I suppose I can render an opinion that a farm hunt is not wild Africa

-Unfortunate that my son was ill, and a big and expensive disappointment for me, but please let's not make it out as anything other than what it was- fair enough?

-RE having an unrestricted DG license- I really don't think hunting one buff with a client makes one DG qualified, but apparently RSA does! Oooops, my mistake!

Lastly, Troskie continually harps on the 8 hunts I booked with him- I believe I have pointed out rather throughly the progression of the breakdown. I also, contrary to claims, think I was pretty easy going about some issues that came up on earlier hunts, letting them go, chalking them up to the nature of hunting in Africa, etc. but the last straw(s) was/were the revelation about the Namibia hunt, after communicating directly with the Namibian PH, the BS about the Tuli camp, the BS about the Tuli kudu, and my conclusion that Troskie was desperate for every dollar and decided, after he had a loyal client, to "nickel and dime' and squeeze every cent out of me he could, which I took issue with. I do think he tried a lot harder early on, and was not under as much financial pressure then as he is now.



So, for those who will hunt with him in the future, I wish you well, and hope to prepare you for a particular version of African......:

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
I see that this thread has come alive again.

First, I hold my head high as a former prosecutor and lawyer.

I can't imagine why. Wether as a prosecutor, lawyer or tourist hunter you've gone out of your way to drag yourself thru the sewer.

Well done!

What an amazing series of stories! Entertaining, quite confusing, and primarily a contest, at best. I've had enough.

Mr Troskie, I don't know you but IMO, it would have served you better to not have posted this BS, you should have kept it between you and 404. Time to move on before further damage is done to your business and reputation. Good luck.

Well frankly even though I do not know either of the two involved here I do have an opinion.
I believe for no particular reason other than from having considerable experiance with honest men, and with crooked that Chris is speaking the truth.
It stacks up, it feels right, and it has the ring of truth to it.

He is obviously outclassed here, he is an amatuer that was picked on by a pro.
But instead of hiding his head and hoping for it to blow away he struck back, how dare he and how stupid..
I don't buy it.
In my unbiased opinion and from my gut I believe Chris.

And I assure you I never plan to hunt with him because I never plan to go to Africa.
But if he were to ever come over here I would be glad to take him instead for an outing.

I like his style, not afraid to fight even though the odds are not in his favor, and the deck is stacked against him.

Damn, all that time I spent talking about the political situation in Zim and I could have been following this thread.

OK i think i've got enough now for about a 2 year run as a daytime soap Any idea of what we should call it? maybe as the stomach turns, The crack of dawn

I hate the whole deal for both of the guys involved. Life is short and hard and as my father used to say "weeeell, this was a tough day, but we got to make the best of it because God doesn't give extras."

Obviously these guys were friends on some level, at some point, and things fell apart.

I suggest you boys dwell on making the best of today and let the problems of the past, be the past.

Other than trying to pass on some wisdom I learned from my father, I don't guess there's anything else here that is my business.

the best,
Josh

Wow, this may be the strangest thread I've ever read on here. With allegations of cross-dressing, ladies cosmetics, homosexuality, and prostitutes it has something for almost everyone .

This thread produces the proof that there truly is such a thing as bad publicity!

Wow.
I have seen this on the list of topics for a while and never clicked on it.....no sure I should have today!
Like a car crash I had to go back and read the whole friggin' thing. My head is spinning from it all. My impressions are:
404 hard to tell who is right or wrong on both your sagas because only you fellas know the truth. If you are truthful and have been screwed twice of this magnitude you have really bad luck or your due diligence is not up to par for a attorney who is not new to African hunting. (but thanks for the consumer report) If you are not truthful you are a real piece of work seeing as how that is what these fellas do for a living and neither made the short list for my 2009 trip. (BTW I didn't know there were different shades of rouge)
Mr. Troskie I tend to believe you bud...based on your opponents track record...but this ain't good publicity for you. I know that is not a revelation to you.

Personally I wish the character of 404's brother was developed better in this story!!! Other than that is was a great read. perhaps "Lipstick in the Long Grass" as a topic title.
Hats of to the talented British orator only a brief appearance but he definitely made this a better read.
Many thanks to Saeed for letting these play out....freedom is a good thing.

Picture this:

You are a Professional Hunter at an airport to pick up your clients for a 2x1 hunt.

As they get off of the plane you notice that 404WJJeffery is wearing eye shadow and mascara and LVEric is wearing his purple velvet jogging suit.

Do you:

a) Pretend you are there to meet someone else.

b) Pretend that all your clients arrive dressed that way.

c) Give them both a kiss on the cheek and tell them how happy you are they have come to visit.

d) Grab the first woman you see and give are a quickie on the tarmac.