PAC = problem animal cull tag. So, if you are doing the locals a favor by removing a problem animal why can't any of the animal be exported?
For me, the reason to do so would be to export about a six foot square piece of Elephant hide and maybe a foot for a trashcan trophy here at home.

I am, just curious...

Rich

Elephant hair bracelett?

I have often wondered if people would look the other way if you collected a few tail hairs. Just enough to make a bracelet.

I would imagine if PAC ele could be exported, the number of ele declared 'PAC' would skyrocket by bribed local officials.

No CITES, no export of anything is what I understand. You could always go to the source and ask the .gov about it.

If an outfitter uses some of his exportable quota on PAC he will be losing money, won't he? Or the price of PAC will go up.

I have seen ads that seem to indicate the outfitter will let you pay extra if you take a non-trophy bull big enough that you want to export it. If all the trophy quota were sold I guess they couldn't do that.

Duckear

What do you think a PAC hunt is?

You can book a Problem Animal Control hunt (in Uncle Bob's backyard) a year before any animal could possibly become such a ongoing problem that it is absolutely unavoidable to do anything but shoot it.

JudgeG,

if you can keep a secret, I already harvested one of those.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Duckear

What do you think a PAC hunt is?

You can book a Problem Animal Control hunt (in Uncle Bob's backyard) a year before any animal could possibly become such a ongoing problem that it is absolutely unavoidable to do anything but shoot it.

Very true statement.

I get the feeling "PAC" hunts are a pretty abused term right now.

A PAC. problem animal control ele allows one to go to Africa and say I shot and elephant and have pics to prove it. Maybe even video of it.

Mike

As someone who brought the tusks of his elephant home I can tell you, real trophy that you take home from you elephant hunt are the memories of the hunt itself.

PAC work should be offered to the Zimbabwe Hunters Association for their members as there is no way we can compete with foreign hunters $$$$$$. i understand the economics but citizens should be offered the hunts first.

+1 Holzer, only the super rich in Africa get to hunt in their own backyard, there are almost no opportunities for Africans to hunt DG unless you have lots of $$$$

Scott, maybe you should take that problem up with Steve he seems to know everything and has a solution for eveything.

I don't know about PAC hunts in Zim but they seem to have a lot of Mgmt hunts which like PAC hunts do not allow for export. From what I read on here these should fit for most people because the size of the trophy is not important only the hunt. I would think these mgmt hunts should please because you are normally in amongst them.

wow anti foreign hunter!!! I did not think anyone Except the goverment officals or there cronny's would want to keep foreign dollars out of Zimbabwe. ohhh dam the illegal American dollars is now your offical currency sorry I forgot. For one I'm not super rich I worked my Dam ass off for several yrs to be able to save enough money to live a dream of hunting in Africa. If hunting in Africa was not aimed at the super rich and most africans knew that not all foreigners are super rich things would be diffrent. Pay your corrupte officals like everyone else has to and you can hunt too. you want our money but you dont want use to visit your coutry

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
wow anti foreign hunter!!! I did not think anyone Except the goverment officals or there cronny's would want to keep foreign dollars out of Zimbabwe. ohhh dam the illegal American dollars is now your offical currency sorry I forgot. For one I'm not super rich I worked my Dam ass off for several yrs to be able to save enough money to live a dream of hunting in Africa. If hunting in Africa was not aimed at the super rich and most africans knew that not all foreigners are super rich things would be diffrent. Pay your corrupte officals like everyone else has to and you can hunt too. you want our money but you dont want use to visit your coutry

These guys are frustrated that they can't hunt in their own country due to the economics and you blast them out of the water?

Take a minute and think about how you would feel if a deer tag in your State sold for $10,000 because foreign hunters were buying them all up and you couldn't hunt in your backyard. I'm sure you'd thank your lucky stars for the money they were bringing in. Yes I'm sure that would be your reaction.

Since it seems by most accounts that Elephant populations exceed the carrying capacity of the range, and the range itself is shrinking in size due to population growth and an increase in agriculture and livestock management, Elephant hunting for control purposes, whether under PAC or Management programs, seems like a suitable way to control population growth, provide hunting opportunities, and increase revenues. If the program is controlled, I don't see a downside.

I would feel the same way I feel when I'm charged 300% to 500% more for anything and everything when I'm in africa. Because I'm American.

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
I would feel the same way I feel when I'm charged 300% to 500% more for anything and everything when I'm in africa. Because I'm American.

Very simple solution then.

Don't go to Africa.

not all country's in Africa charge locals the excessive prices for hunting. Before Kneya banned Locals from hunting in 2005 Thats right locals could hunt until 2005 the fee's where reasonible.

opps kenya

my fustration is with the corruption and misconseptions and outright BS you have to indure to do business in Africa Not with the normal everyday locals. Goverment craps like all goverment crap no matter what country. My friend Campbell Bridges was murdered in Kenya last august and the corrupte goverment will not even arrest the murderers.

This post from Don Heath on another thread may shed some light on what citizen hunters in Zim are facing and why Holzer and others are unhappy:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
This year will be interesting to watch the auctions.

In the past Citizen hunters had
Rifa, Doma and Tuli as big game areas run by the Zimbabwe Hunters Association. (they also bought up quota on private land and offered that to members) In Addition Makuti, Charara and Umfurudzi were open to Zim Citizens only and sold by sealed tender. Lastly, you could always bid on the zambezi Valley auction hunts and dandawa impala camps.

Willas Makombe (Parks Acting Director) anounced in 1996 that he intended to stop Citizens having access to national parks areas, and slowly over the next 4 years put this into place with all citizen hunting areas being leased out to safari operators.

Since 2000 the only option for citizens has been to bid on the Zambezi Valley acutions. Last year only 10 hunts were reserved for citizens- the rest only open to visiting hunters. With the economy dollerised, I suspect all the zambezi valley camps will be open to all- and for the first time since the Zim dollar collapsed (nov 97) it will be a level playing field for both citizens, South African Operators (who are there illegally....) and those international hunters who want a genuine 'Chase Libre' hunt in the Zambezi Valley.

a) Don't hold your breath
b) Prices will not be high, but far above what most Zimbabweans can afford
c) Many safari operators may well have left over quota which they will sell onto citizens. As a citizen you are not required to hunt with a PH so the operators needs only to charge you the fee for the animal not the daily rate (assuming you run your own fly camp).

I imagine if BLM and other federal land were treated similarly here ther would be some objection from the US citizens.

I freely admit I know little about how the citizen hunting areas were managed, and have hunted one such are once it was no longer a citizen hunting area.

Ddrhook,

As someone who lives, works and earn a living in Africa, I can assure you that very few of the local hunters are anti foreign hunters.

Whenever I feel like hunting elephant or buffalo, for instance, I have to pay the same price that you do in US currency, even though I earn in Rands, not dollars. The most apparent practical implication is therefore that I have to multiply everything by about eight to arrive at what the hunt would actually be costing me.

I think I'm on reasonably solid ground here when I say that what would for you be an average priced 10 day buffalo hunt in Zim (purely as an example) turns into the equivalent of three or four months' worth of salary (and for many guys it would be far, far more than that).

The problem may very well be greedy African governments, but there is very real frustration amongst many of us locals at the almost total non-availability of dangerous game hunting opportunities for us over here. We don't really have the equivalent of a local congressman over here to complain to, and voting for someone else has never made much of a difference in Africa, at least in my opinion.

We are everything but anti foreign, merely pro local. Appreciate the fact that you are far, far more likely to be able to afford dangerous game hunting in any way, shape or form than the average Southern African John Q Citizen who wihes to do so (owners of buried muzzle loaders and AK-47's excluded, naturally).

Please don't be so hasty in condemning us.

NO i can't afford to hunt in Africa unless I save for yrs. and yes most of the problems are due to goverment. NOT ALL AMERICANS ARE RICH dispite what it seams like most others think. Most of use work for a living like everyone else.
Ypur in the smae boat as we are no control over your goverment officals who care nothing for the people they are suppost to represent

Cites sets a limit on the number of elephant trophies that can be exported from each country. The number is rather low. The local govt's arent going to let you export a PAC ele that you pay 2,500 US for when they can sell that trophy quota to another hunter that will pay 12,000 to 15,000 US in trophy fees.

465H&H

Don't worry, mate, I too have been saving for years to hunt in Africa!

We are forced to pay in dollars in order to hunt on our own doorstep. I have no quarrel whatsoever with safari operators who have to earn an honest living or thei clients, but yes, the governments over here are as a rule corrupt to the point of being absolutely useless and greedy as hell. Why don't we agree to agree on that one and leave it at that?

As for the BS, I have to deal with it on a DAILY basis, so spare me that one, mate.

Earning in dollars and paying in dollars tends to be at lot easier than earning and Rands and having to pay the dollar equivalent. That's my point.

PS: Sorry for being off topic!

jvw375
glad you understand some times I feel like the only one who keeps running into the road blocks. you stated my thought better than I did. I have been dealing with a african goverment for 4 yrs trying to get an NGO off the ground. If I had hair I would pull it out

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
wow anti foreign hunter!!! I did not think anyone Except the goverment officals or there cronny's would want to keep foreign dollars out of Zimbabwe. ohhh dam the illegal American dollars is now your offical currency sorry I forgot. For one I'm not super rich I worked my Dam ass off for several yrs to be able to save enough money to live a dream of hunting in Africa. If hunting in Africa was not aimed at the super rich and most africans knew that not all foreigners are super rich things would be diffrent. Pay your corrupte officals like everyone else has to and you can hunt too. you want our money but you dont want use to visit your coutry

I am pro foreign hunters coming to Zim as you guys contribute greatly to our economy. I remember reading somewhere that hunting contributes approx 5% to our GDP!!!! What I was getting at is our Parks authority should at least offer a number of management or PAC hunts to citizens so we too can enjoy some DG hunting and not have to compete with foreign hunters.

Well, it seems if you want to hunt AFRCA right now, where

ever you are a citizen you should transplant to the USA, legally

or illegally, it matters not to the USA Gov't now that we

have the communist in the Oval Office. Then pop back and forth

between AFRICA and the United States of America as often as

the US dollars can facilitate your desires...

quote:

By holzer375
PAC work should be offered to the Zimbabwe Hunters Association for their members as there is no way we can compete with foreign hunters $$$$$$. i understand the economics but citizens should be offered the hunts first.

quote:

by Scott Maynard
+1 Holzer, only the super rich in Africa get to hunt in their own backyard, there are almost no opportunities for Africans to hunt DG unless you have lots of $$$$

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
wow anti foreign hunter!!! I did not think anyone Except the goverment officals or there cronny's would want to keep foreign dollars out of Zimbabwe. ohhh dam the illegal American dollars is now your offical currency sorry I forgot. For one I'm not super rich I worked my Dam ass off for several yrs to be able to save enough money to live a dream of hunting in Africa. If hunting in Africa was not aimed at the super rich and most africans knew that not all foreigners are super rich things would be diffrent. Pay your corrupte officals like everyone else has to and you can hunt too. you want our money but you dont want use to visit your coutry

DDRook I understand your anger at a seeming slight to a person who has had to send a large amount of hard earned money to be able to hunt in Africa. Having said that, however, I also understand the plight of a local that simply wants to hunt in his own country but because he lives in very bad economy, isn't able to, while his government places the cost so high locals can't afford to hunt dangerous game.

You see I can see both sides of this because I was born on a North end Texas hill country ranch in the 1930 when all one had to do was drive to a ranch house and ask permission to hunt the property.

The ranch my great grandfather carved out of the country side in the 1800s was never posted or leased to be hunted, nor was anyone ever charged money to hunt our property. Then the oil companies started leasing the hunting rights on ranches to entertain their clients, paying exorbitant trespass fees. For some years this only effected a few ranches, but suddenly the whole state was covered up with folks from out of state and/or out of country. When a whitetail deer used to cost me single shot in the head from a .22 lr back in the 1930s, it has come to a minimum of $2000 for a small lease for deer season, and management deer is another $500,and trophy deer start at around $2000 there are a lot of Texans who simply can't afford to hunt deer in Texas anymore. It is understandable that Texans resent the fact that folks can't hunt their own state, because the costs have been driven so high by people from other states and countries. The airports are full of hunters coming down with pockets full of money.

So all I'm saying is, it isn't the locals fault that they are priced out of the hunting, and it isn't ours either we just pay what their Gov sets, it is their people who are setting the price that is the problem.

............................

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Duckear

What do you think a PAC hunt is?

You can book a Problem Animal Control hunt (in Uncle Bob's backyard) a year before any animal could possibly become such a ongoing problem that it is absolutely unavoidable to do anything but shoot it.

Very true statement.

I get the feeling "PAC" hunts are a pretty abused term right now.

I guess I am pretty naive on PAC stuff. So I guess PAC is just a way to get around CITES and bring in more cash?

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:
I think I'm on reasonably solid ground here when I say that what would for you be an average priced 10 day buffalo hunt in Zim (purely as an example) turns into the equivalent of three or four months' worth of salary (and for many guys it would be far, far more than that).

Hey, my "averaged priced" 12-day Plains game hunt in Namibia will run me and my wife all told about 5-6 months salary . . . after you figure airfare, daily rate, trophy fees, etc. And that's saving for 3 years. The average-priced Buffalo hunt when we do it will cost more than that (unless we start making lots more money, which I'm not holding my breath about).

Kinda puts you and I (at least) in a similar boat . . . although I suppose its cheaper for me to hunt at home if I want to put in for draw tags in NM or just hunt the very limited Public land in Texas( . . . if I want to hunt a "true" trophy lease here in Texas, you and I are in the same boat!).

Troy

Troy

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Cites sets a limit on the number of elephant trophies that can be exported from each country. The number is rather low. The local govt's arent going to let you export a PAC ele that you pay 2,500 US for when they can sell that trophy quota to another hunter that will pay 12,000 to 15,000 US in trophy fees.
465H&H

+1

And when there really is a "problem animal", no one cares who pulls the trigger.