Misfires and trophy fees

06 November 2010, 00:51

Suppose you and your PH are closing the stock on a nice bull elephant. You raise your rifle to shoot and experience a misfire. At the click of your rifle, the elephant decides he doesn't like you being so close and charges. The PH shoots the bull in the brain and it's dead before you can get a second shot off.

Two questions regarding this scenario.

First, is the hunter responsible for the trophy fee of the now dead bull?

Second, what is standard protocol for dealing with a misfire in a hunting scenario. I was always taught to wait 30 seconds to make sure the round does not have a delayed fire. This works at the range, but what about when there's an elephant 20 yards away who doesn't have 30 seconds to wait around.

06 November 2010, 01:01

LionHunter

The rule is: you wound it, you pay for it. Blood must be found or it was a miss. First rule of a PH is to protect the client.

Seems to me those rules define your proposed scenario. All of you who have been in this situation may now reply.

06 November 2010, 01:03

GeorgeS

1. No, you didn't draw blood. It's just one of those things that the PH will have to sort out with the government or its representative (game scout).

2. I'd eject the round POSTHASTE. The risk of getting a minor wound from a hangfire pales in comparison to the risk of being turned into a greasy spot.

George

06 November 2010, 01:27

Blacktailer

This scenario was played out on "Dangerous Game" TV show this week. PH was Jeff Rann. I was wondering the same thing.
I agree with George. I would have had another round chambered and shot before the PH knew I had a misfire or the ele took a step.

06 November 2010, 02:32

Sevens

quote:
Originally posted by Blacktailer:
This scenario was played out on "Dangerous Game" TV show this week. PH was Jeff Rann. I was wondering the same thing.
I agree with George. I would have had another round chambered and shot before the PH knew I had a misfire or the ele took a step.

Blacktailer, that episode is exactly what spawned my question.

06 November 2010, 02:57

L. David Keith

Any PH worth his salt would recognize a misfire immediately...as Jeff did. Tough spot to be in but no time to discuss the merits of who pays. Screw around and you'll pay with your life. A PHs job is to protect the client #1. If a hunter can't deal with a PH shooting his trophy under, and I say under dire emergency, then he best stay away from DG hunting. A trigger happy PH gets a reputation fast, and other hunters will tell this quickly. So know what you expect from your PH before your feet land in Terrortown.
Cheers,
David

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson

Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......

"If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you."

06 November 2010, 03:16

Pepperpot

Great thread, I saw the episode as well, and was wondering the same thing.

I always assumed that the client pays in that situation, and that it just sort of came with the territory when hunting dangerous game.

I cannot imagine how disappointed the hunter must have felt.

06 November 2010, 05:56

Brice

I have hunted in Africa, mostly, with the same PH for ten years. I consider the hunt a team effort. The fact is that in most cases it doesn't matter who makes the shot. For example, when hunting leopard, I instructed the PH's (2) that the first consideraiton was safety. I made the first shot, which was fatal but slow. My old friend made a better shot 2-3 seconds later. Did that detract from the ten days of gruelling effort on the part of me, two PH's, the dog handler plus a dog wrangler and a tracker? No! What were my chances of getting a leopard without this combined effort?

I would most certainly not punish my PH for his actions in such a situation. Aside from the trophy fee, he would have a devil of a time sorting it out with the authorities. I would not subject a friend to that.

06 November 2010, 06:30

tendrams

quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
1. No, you didn't draw blood. It's just one of those things that the PH will have to sort out with the government or its representative (game scout).

This. If I don't draw blood, I don't cut a check for that trophy fee...end of story. This is one of undoubtedly hundreds of reasons to never pay trophy fees in advance!

06 November 2010, 07:55

SGraves155

If I stalked it, and my misfire caused it to charge, then I pay for it, no matter if the PH had to kill it.

06 November 2010, 11:21

tx308

I would think the right thing to do would be to pay up. Especially if the ph stopped a charge while i was sitting there fiddling with my gun. Id gladly be out of some cash as opposed to being out of my life.

06 November 2010, 11:39

fairgame

I remember Mike Fell(?) shot an elephant in Tanzania under similar circumstances and the client Jim Shockey was required to endorse the license.

Interesting question. In Zambia this sort if incident would have to be reported to the Area Warden and note the incident occurred whilst the animal was hunted and I am fairly sure his decision would probably spell the end of the hunt.

If you are hunting DG then incidents such as this could occur. If an elephant is bearing down on you I very much doubt anyone would mind the PH stepping in.

A PH here shot a wounded Lion before it started a charge. The client refused to shoot as he did not want to shoot it in the head. The PH remarked that the client had no idea of the danger he was in and made a quick decision. I thought that was a good call by the PH but not so the client who threatened not to pay for it?

It is part of our job to protect clients from danger and in the unlikely event that this sort of thing occurs then someone will have to pay for it. In hunting you have to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth.

06 November 2010, 16:59

fujotupu

Sevens:

quote:
Suppose you and your PH are closing the stock on a nice bull elephant. You raise your rifle to shoot and experience a misfire. At the click of your rifle, the elephant decides he doesn't like you being so close and charges. The PH shoots the bull in the brain and it's dead before you can get a second shot off.

1.The intention to shoot the elephant has been confirmed.
2.The misfire and audible "click" is one of those unfortunate situations that happen though if ammo is fresh, shouldn't.
3.That the misfire was caused by a faulty mechanism also happens, though rare.
4.On assumption you were handling a double you could have gone straight to tube n.2 - if instead you had a bolt action then you dilly-dallied too long for the PH to wait.
5.That the PH shot at the now charging (originally targeted) elephant and dropping it on the first shot is absolutely no fault of his - he was doing his job in saving your ass and his.

Work the rest out for yourself.

06 November 2010, 22:44

Sevens

quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
1.The intention to shoot the elephant has been confirmed.
2.The misfire and audible "click" is one of those unfortunate situations that happen though if ammo is fresh, shouldn't.
3.That the misfire was caused by a faulty mechanism also happens, though rare.
4.On assumption you were handling a double you could have gone straight to tube n.2 - if instead you had a bolt action then you dilly-dallied too long for the PH to wait.
5.That the PH shot at the now charging (originally targeted) elephant and dropping it on the first shot is absolutely no fault of his - he was doing his job in saving your ass and his.

Work the rest out for yourself.

This is pretty much what I assumed. I can see this argued both ways (as some here have), but ethically it seems like the client bought the elephant when he pulled the trigger and the rifle went "click" (which caused the elephant to charge).

As I mentioned before, this question was spawned from the exact scenario seen on an episode of Federal's "Dangerous Game." The client misfires at which point he begins to curse, elephant charges, and the PH shoots the bull to save the day.

Now, to me, ejecting the misfired round and putting a fresh one in to begin shooting again seems logical (as many stated, being squashed by an elephant is not a fun way to end a safari). In the clip shown on the TV, the client clearly had enough time to reload since he had enough time to curse and communicate to the PH he had a misfire. This was what got me curious if the protocol for a misfire while hunting is still to wait 30 seconds to see if there is a hang fire. While on a deer hunt this seems fine, but on DG the unanimous answer (again) seems to be to reload and keep shooting.

Thanks for the input.

On a side note, I wonder what ammunition the client was using in the show?