It seems that (some clients) put more emphasis on what trophy size is available or might be obtained than the enjoyment of the hunt regardless of a trophy size.

How many book hunts with the PRIME objective to get an SCI or similar spread animal as opposed to wanting a hunting experience with trophy size irrelavent

Cheers, Peter

I for one agree. I just finished my first Safari and I could care less about the tape. Steve measured for his records. But right now I could not tell you what any ot the animals I do measured. Steve, Philip and myself did talk about it for a few mins once the hunt was over but I could careless what they measure They where all wonderful and the hunt and new friendships where a lot more important to me. Through the tape out and the hunts more fun!!!

The best trophy is a great experience.

I also agree. I mount all sizes of critters--77 lb leopards to 205 lb ones and the clients love the size of their own. Its all about the memories, not the ego's that some unfortunately have. But remember that you must have fun hunting or your doing something wrong.....

The only place I've ever taken a tape measure along is when I fish on a slot lake,where the fish have to fit below, or above a certain slot to be legal.

Hunting I shoot what I see that I like. The shape of the horns is far more important to me than the spread or total score. The PHs always score the trophies, but like ddrhook I couldn't care less what they measure!

OK, I've never minded being the different one. I take a tape measure when I hunt and when I fish. Most places outside the US - you can't bring the fish back, and if I want to do a repo some day, I need to know the length and girth. On the hunting, if you measure it yourself, it is a good way to know you are getting your own horns back, and I also like to know how big my trophy is. I am a certified measurer and I trust my own measurements more than someone else's.

If I'm paying a lot of money, I want as big a animal as I can shoot. But, that's just me.

At the end of the day there is nothing wrong with measuring your trophy no matter what size. It just shouldnt be the end all to be all. The priority should in my opinion be the experience of the hunt. If you shoot a really nice trophy as we all want to do it is a bonus. Still it is a personal decision and each person has to decide for themselves what the emphasis of their hunt will be.

I have no problem with people that want to measure their trophies. It is their trophy and and their hunt, they can do whatever they like. I am not going to judge.

In my opinion, The animal is all but part of the trophy experience. How do you put a tape measure to an experience? The experience is the trophy in itself. How do you measure sweat beading down your nose while you are bumming along the African silt among mopane trees after a duggaboy. How do you measure the fact that your heart is pounding so loud that you feel the buffalo will hear it while you are approaching. My point here is that there are some things you cannot measure, and for me they are all but everything that comes together on a hunt. To this date, two years after my safari my Dad and I, we have yet to put a measuring tape to our trophies. I think we will keep it that way.

To each their own, happy hunting!

Maybe if they want you to leave the tape measure at home, there are no big trophy animals in the concession that they have? Not trying to start anything, but I would be real concerned if I booked a hunt, and they told me to be sure and leave the tape measure at home. I apologize in advance if this offends anyone.

Unfortunately, those of us who have outgrown hunting for "trophies" are in the minority.

Bill Quimby

I enjoy a "laid back" hunt as much as anyone, but when I plan a hunt years in advance, and spend a lot of time researching the area and the PH, as well as spending big $, I would hope that there some nice trophy animals available in the area I plan to hunt.

There is more to a hunt than trophy size. There is more to a hunt than the thrill of the adventure and there is more to a hunt than the smell of Mopane smoke.

What I'm saying is, the hunt is an almalgamation of a variety of thrills and experience, all providing the hunter with passionate memories of a trip. Taking along a tape measure is fine, if that's what you want to do; record books exist for this reason.

First timers are encouraged to hunt for the all round adventure it offers, but as time progresses, goals and ambitions change, and so trophy size moves up the ladder of priorities, as I believe it should.

The PH, believe it or not, has no problem with the "measurement client". It puts his own abilities to the test, and instills a sense of pride on achieving predetermined goals - it all adds to the fun and adventure, and is what makes a hunt great.

I would pass on a small animal, no matter how thrilling the hunt. For me, "measurement" takes place prior to the hunt, when the PH and the client decide what the clients objectives are to be. When the PH says "take him", and you have confidence in the PH, pulling out the tape after the fact adds little to my overall experience.

I think it's all a matter of how far it's taken. A healthy interest is fine and of course it's always nice to take a really nice trophy but just occasionally some people can take the tape measure thing to extremes and then lose the enjoyment of the hunt.

When a client start taping an animal when it's dying but not dead or when he walks away from it almost in tears because it's half an inch smaller than he wanted or sulks like a spoiled child for days on end because of a similar reason, then the tape measure has been given far too much importance.

Don't think all those things don't happen because just occasionally they do.

As I see it, the trophy should be judged by the quality, excitement and fun of the hunt and if it scores highly in the book, then that's a bonus...... but nothing more.

We all hunt for our own reasons but for me, Sher Jung got it right when he wrote:

The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

How many clients have I heard say "I dont care about measurements" but they get in the truck and the first question is "What does a good one look?"??? Well first of all .....

To me a healthy interest in what a mature trophy animal looks like (and how you tell) is all part of the experience and adventure.

In my experience relatively few hunters, especially those who go looking for the wild hunts are THAT caught up in trophy measurement. This is evidenced by the relatively few SCI members who ACTUALLY submit all their eligible trophys to the record books!!!

IMO Most serious hunters look to have an enjoyable experience and the opportunity to harvest the best quality animals the location, conditions and PH can provide.

If the area you are hunting have a average of taking 34" buffalos and 25 pounds elephants I will not be looking after 45" buffs or 100 pounds eles but if a area has that potential I will not shoot a 32" buff.(You have probably paid 3x price for being in that area, im not saying its a slamdunk to find a 45" in any area but some areas are better for big buff and you pay for that opportunity). Anyway on my previous two 21 day hunts I have killed ~5 animals on average on each trip and that is how I like to do it, hunt a few animals hard and with good "quality" the "27 animals 15 day trip" doesnt interest me. Next trip I will be hunting 2 animals for 20 days. Maybe I will find what im looking after maybe I dont - thats hunting and I will not let it ruin my trip.

All people are different but when old men start to cry when the trophy is a couple of inches short is just ridiculous

JMO


Sorry for my SWEnglish.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:
....... as opposed to wanting a hunting experience with trophy size irrelavent

Cheers, Peter

I would NEVER book such a trophy hunt for myself..

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:
It seems that (some clients) put more emphasis on what trophy size is available or might be obtained than the enjoyment of the hunt regardless of a trophy size.

How many book hunts with the PRIME objective to get an SCI or similar spread animal as opposed to wanting a hunting experience with trophy size irrelavent

Cheers, Peter

Spoken like a true outfitter trying to sell Mountain Buffalo!

"First timers are encouraged to hunt for the all round adventure it offers, but as time progresses, goals and ambitions change, and so trophy size moves up the ladder of priorities, as I believe it should."

At age 74, after hunting all over this planet and taking my share of "trophies," I can assure you that as you approach the final rung of that ladder, the size of an animal's horn, antler or skull will become the least important of your priorities.

Bill Quimby

I only use a tape measure when I'm Whitetail hunting under state management plan because we have to complete a form and log on some basic measurements (not a scoring system).

On my first African safari I was pleasantly surprised that two of my four animals qualified for the SCI minimum. At this stage I am want a nice representation, but would not think of taking my tape measure. I have faith in my PH and after I have pulled the trigger it's too late. My concern when I am looking through the scope is making sure I am looking at the same animal as the PH rather than second guessing him. Of course, I have heard stories about PH's that had client shoot the first thing they saw. Pieter kept saying "we can do better" when after a memorable stalk I was thinking "looks good to me".

Having said that, RBHunt has a valid point about ensuring you are actually getting your horns.

Charles

I maybe crazy but to me something diffrent, bent horns, broken horns, something with unusual is what I want. the record books are just not my thing. when Steve said shot it I did not ask what size I shot it and we had a wonderful time the entire hunt. THANKS AGAIN for the great great hunt STEVE and Philip

Hunting experience only. If a PH brings out a tape, no tip!! I am clear on this when I book. I am anti-tape and anti-trophy book.

I allowed one PH to tape a bushbuck that he felt was "his" all time best (it was) but I would not enter it anywhere other than on my wall at home.

I think SCI, Rowland & Ward and Boone & Crockett do a lot of good, but measuring trophies is not one of them.

The entire pen raised deer industry started as a result and look what we have turned into - a society that measures success by the length of horns only. Same goes for breast implants on women.

It is something that I never was much interested in - I have no idea how long my Impala horns are, nor those of my red lechwe - in fact, I'll measure him now as he is looking at me: there 21 inches. No idea if that is good or not.

Whatever they measure is of little interest. He looks good to me and hunting him was a great part of a fantastic safari on Botswana.

However, we all get helped by having a goal of some kind otherwise, you would just turn up in a well populated area and shoot everything on your licence in the first two days. In the Okavango delta we had licences for elephant, lechwe, impala, warthog and birds. We saw everything on day 1 and our 16 day safari cold have been a bird shoot if we had shot the first of everything we saw.

Having atrophy quality in mind gives you something to hunt for. I am thinking of a buffalo hunt next year and I would be more interested in finding a very old, grumpy buff to shoot but i have no interest in how big his horns are or if they are broken etc. If ele hunting again, I would be happy on PAC or tuskless hunts, as I have no room for more trophies (nor want to spend the cash involved to prepare and ship them etc) and am happy with the photos and memories. That is just me.

Gee, surrounded by low expectations!

An obamer fest.

NOOP surrounded my people who love the quality of the hunt more than the tape measure as the standard for a successful hunt

To me as a hunter and not just a killer...I think that the tape is a way of evolving.

For me...I go for the hunt. I like to look and judge animals on the hoof and like to take "better" specimens of the animals that I have taken before.

I try to educate myself on trophy judgement prior to pulling the trigger. Then I like to hunt! And I call it a successful hunt if I get close enough to take a proper shot and judge the trophy potential of the particular quarry. I use the tape as an educational means only for my own etification.

I can have a successful trip even if I never pull the trigger...as long as I had the opportunity to if I so chose.

So as to original question...I like to measure...but only as to a means of education to myself...I am ALWAYS happy with any animal that I decide to harvest.

This same basic topic comes up pretty often and my take on it is that you should bring a tape on every hunt. Carrying a tape does not mean the success of your safari is dependent on your trophy having a certain score. It can mean you are a smart consumer and want to know what you've shot. The tape is a great education tool and keeps everybody honest. A PH one time told me a kudu was 53"-54" before and after we shot it. The tape said 47". Every animal taken after that measured larger than the PH's estimation.

A guy that comes to a safari operator and says he doesn't care about trophy size or nice accommodations is a perfect mark to get f---ed. The client going in has low expectations and if he has a crappy safari? Well that's what he asked for.

My personal goals are often specific as to score and that means I have to walk away on occasion but that's fine because we HUNTED. We just didn't KILL the big boy.

The total safari in all its parts is what makes the safari "experience" and good representative trophies are a part of that.

Mark

I agree with Mark, if you don't care about trophy size, you end up with a "mountain buff" from Tanzinia. Wanting a trophy quality animal does not mean you have to measure it.

There are a lot of guys here saying that inches absolutely don't matter. Really? Well, I have yet to hear that being said by any guy hunting elephant or buffalo.

If inches absolutely don't matter, then why don't you all have walls full of 15" impala, 40" kudu, 30" gemsbok, etc?

The "experience" of the hunt is going after a good mature representative of that species in the area you are hunting. If you're going to tell your PH, "I'll shoot anything you tell me to shoot because I don't know what a trophy size _______ is" then you haven't done your homework and could be setting yourself up to be taken advantage of by a lazy PH.

Learn about the animals you will be hunting BEFORE your safari, and then tell your PH what your hopes and expectations are. Otherwise, you could be coming home from Africa with sub-standard animals and then write an article on your hunt.

I'm definitely not hung up on inches, but I do want mature trophies.

I don't think anyone is saying that size doesn't matter at all. When I have everything that I want then I can start worrying about getting a better one. Right now I am happy with a 54" Kudu and would of been happy with the 52 - 53" that Pieter estimated it at. Frankly I would have been happy with anything over 48". That doesn't mean I want a 40".

I do research on what a "typical" size a mature whatever is, but I don't plan to carry a copy of the SCI record book around with me on safari.

"If inches absolutely don't matter, then why don't you all have walls full of 15" impala, 40" kudu, 30" gemsbok, etc?"

Actually, I do have a little gemsbok on my wall. It was my first gemsbok and I killed it on my first trip to South Africa 27 years ago. I've never measured it, but it definitely is not a "trophy" as most hunters now define the word.

I don't care. That animal means more to me than any of the much larger gemsboks I've taken since then (none of which I bothered to have mounted) for a lot of reasons, but in big part because I was allowed to hunt it on Anglo American's huge Rooipoort estate near Kimberley without a professional hunter.

Incidentally, I stopped shipping my African animals home four or five trips ago.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
This same basic topic comes up pretty often and my take on it is that you should bring a tape on every hunt. Carrying a tape does not mean the success of your safari is dependent on your trophy having a certain score. It can mean you are a smart consumer and want to know what you've shot. The tape is a great education tool and keeps everybody honest. A PH one time told me a kudu was 53"-54" before and after we shot it. The tape said 47". Every animal taken after that measured larger than the PH's estimation.

A guy that comes to a safari operator and says he doesn't care about trophy size or nice accommodations is a perfect mark to get f---ed. The client going in has low expectations and if he has a crappy safari? Well that's what he asked for.

My personal goals are often specific as to score and that means I have to walk away on occasion but that's fine because we HUNTED. We just didn't KILL the big boy.

The total safari in all its parts is what makes the safari "experience" and good representative trophies are a part of that.

Mark

Mark,
I respect your opinions but I think you are off the mark on this one. The situation I described above was with Dean Kendall, one of your PH's in Tanzania. On my hunt with him, I explained my personal ethics. He respected them and we had a superb hunt. His response to me was, "thank goodness, no tape measure hunter!" The bushbuck we took was exceptional, according to Dean. To me, it was great and we had a great time hunting it.

I was hunting with my sons and I have raised them without the pressure of "inches" to have a good hunt. Dean and his guys exceeded my expectations as we took nothing but older, mature animals.

I trust the PH to be a person of integrity when we hunt. He should be someone that will help me and my sons hunt mature animals. If he is not, I will not hunt with him again, nor book with his company or nor use the agent that sent me there.

I offer this - I will book a hunt with you if you will promise me an 80 lb elephant, a 45" buff, a 160 lb leopard and a full maned, mature lion at least 6 years old, a 30" eland, a 55" kudu, a 12" warthog and a 5" steinbok. I will pay you a rate of $2200 per day and whatever trophy fees are normal for that area. I want 5 star accomodations with all the trimmings. On top of that the vehicles better be absolutely perfect. That is my minimum expectation. If you do not deliver, I will rant and rave, post bad hunt reports, leave no tips and make your internet life hell for months. I will demand a partial refund or a free return hunt until YOU deliver on my inches and pounds.

Or, will you book a safari for my sons and I for the above, without the inches but with PH's that are men of integrity and will do their best to put me onto the best, mature animals they can in your area. I have done my homework and know a hard bossed bull from a soft boss, I know a big kudu when I see one, I will need help on the elephant, but trust your PH's to put me on the best he can.

Which hunt will you book for me you?

This is the extreme case, but I am after the experience. If I shoot a 40" buff vs. a 44" buff standing by the road outside camp on day one, I am a lesser man for the experience. I go to Africa to hunt and experience a life I will never know in the US. I go to Africa for the smells, the trackers, the people, the 5 days of tracking buff until we see one old gnarly hard bossed bull.

Anyway, that is how I feel about the debate on inches.

Oh God, please, not again!

There are so many good reasons to measure your trophies, some have been mentioned above, even if you don't enter them in the book. And there are so many good reasons to enter trophies in the book. But if you choose to acknowledge those good reasons, someone on AR will call you out about it. Usually those folks have much less safari experience and knowledge of species and their habitat.

Well, here's a news flash, just because I measure my animals (I am a certified measurer for both SCI and Roland Ward) doesn't mean I don't enjoy the hunting experience to it's fullest. I have taken safari enough times and in enough countries to have had less capable PHs, good PHs and outstanding PHs. I like hunting new areas with new PHs and rarely book with the same outfitter unless it's for a different country. Luck always plays a part in hunting and I have been fortunate enough to take some world records by hunting hard and concentrating on specific species. I have also taken trophies that do not rise to record book standards and I care less about that fact. I have learned to research countries, areas, outfitters and PHs. I have chosen to make a handgun only hunt for the additional challenge it presented.

Any decent and ethical outfitter or PH wants you to take the best available animal in their territory. They have a vested interest in doing so. By the same token, if you tell them you will be happy to simply take representative species, they will gladly comply as it makes their job easier and leaves better trophies for those who are so inclined. That's called good business management of resources. A good PH will tell you in advance what representative species they have which don't get to book quality in their areas, due to genetics and environment. I have chosen to take such representative animals on more than one occasion with full knowledge and acceptance of these facts. I have then bettered them in some cases on other safari in other countries where the species thrives.

I always discuss my expectations with a PH before we start the hunt. Among other topics, I will tell them which species I am not interested in taking, with the caveat that if we find a "monster" he should tell me and I will likely take it. That has never been a problem. I also bring all my safari experience along with my knowledge and trophy judging skills to the hunt. I like the hunt to be a combination of skills from the trackers, PH and myself.

Mark Young said a lot in his post above, as have others. I don't give a damn how anybody else hunts but I do believe there is enough shite generated by the antis that we ought to try to accept and respect the choices of all hunters.

Semper Fi

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

Mark Young said a lot in his post above, as have others. I don't give a damn how anybody else hunts but I do believe there is enough shite generated by the antis that we ought to try to accept and respect the choices of all hunters.

Semper Fi

Really all that needs to be said!!

I believe hunting is not just about one thing (ie. the inches of a trophy). However with the cost of hunts being what they are it is important not to be BS'd by an outfitter or agent to pay for and expect a certain trophy and not have the slightest chance at such an animal when you get there.

A great end result with the perfect hunting experience is the best thing that can happen and will make you appreciate the trophy so much more.

It's nice to shoot a big trophy animal, but I'm just as thrilled to shoot a representative one. Beats coming home empty handed and I can't say I've ever heard my taxidermist complain about the size of an animal either.

I actually became a certified SCI measurer before I had ever hunted Africa. Measuring those African trophies and talking to the guys that hunted them was part of what convinced me that I had to go to Africa and shoot some of those animals myself. As far as I am concerned, something good came from pulling out the ole tape measure.

Oh, most of the "Oh, I'm not taping my trophies" have taped the hell out of trophies years ago. After you've shot some nice trophies it is all well and good to take the high road, but most of us, certainly including me, don't want to shoot dinks. I've always told my PHs, I am not looking for record books but I want a substantially better than average trophy or I don't want you to call the shot. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT? I don't give a damn how hard the hunt is, you can crawl a mile over broken lava on your bare knees and if it is a dink, it's still a dink. Yeah, all of us appreciate the experience, I'm certainly not denigrating that part of the hunt, but anyone in here who says, "I'm over there to just shoot heads, even if they have milk dripping off their mouths" is either lying or a piss poor hunter IMO. You ain't eating them, so why shoot them if they're not a quality animal?

Too funny And right on the $$$!