Several different threads on the subject show that quite a few members believe this statement to be true.

Their argument is simply that if someone is hunting a "canned lion" than he/she won't be hunting a wild one which translates in less wild lions being killed.

I always thought that quotas controlled the amount of lions allowed to be taken??

In other words, if a country had an annual quota, of say 250 wild lions available, than you can't shoot more than 250 irrespective of what the demand may be.

Now if all operators agreed that lions less than 6 years old should not be shot, then a country-wide quota of 250 would be far more than required and probably less than 30% of that amount (i.e.<75) would get killed every year.

It may be more productive (to save wild lions) to analyse existing quotas and ensure that they may be more realistically set and based on more detailed scientific criteria.

Exactly.

Obviously, there are exceptions, but as a broad general rule,the canned Lion hunting client is not usually one who would buy a hunt for free range Lion anyway.

You are preaching to the choir, brother.

Amen.

Until someone put the resources into the necessary research, whether canned lion hunting impacts hunting for wild lion remains in the realm of opinion or conjecture.

What seems to be clear though is that a) wild lion (especially trophy quality) has been declining rapidly and b) the South African game industry (with help from Namibia) has been at the fore front of bringing back endangered game to huntable levels (i.e. black wildebeest, white rhino, and hopefully black rhino).

The South African game reserves are more of lessly all behind fences.

Some seem to be assuming that game behind fences automatically means "canned hunting".

Big Kahuna, I agree.
The antelope species raised in large pastures retain their fear of man, but the large carnivores must be kept in relatively small enclosures and usually fed (and frequently handled and petted)directly by humans. They lose their instinctive fear of man that all large land animals have developed. Even if released in a large area, a good tracker can find them, and then they can become "sitting ducks" as opposed to the "King of Beasts", although they are still capable of killing you quickly if P.O.'d or stumbled upon.
It may, however, be as good as any a way to deal with excess and unwanted captive lions. But specifically breeding for this purpose is obviously very questionable in a moral sense IMO.

I agree that it is the quota that control the number of lion taken (outside of poaching). But canned lion hunts probably reduce the demand for lions to some extent as many want a lion and don't really care if it is canned or not. They just need one to reach some pinnacle. What canned lion hunting probably does is reduce the demand somewhat for wild lions. When canned lion hunting is banned we will see an increase in the demand for wild lions and the result will be a further escalation in the price of wild lion hunting.

465H&H

I never bought the argument that these hunts took the pressure of wild lions. The folks originally booking these hunts were looking for a 100% chance at taking a heavy maned lion on a very short hunt. That is just not available in the wild so I think it is unlikely that these folks would have booked a lion elsewhere anyway. The current hunts being offered at bargain basement prices as the curtain closes on canned lions probably just could not afford a lion hunt elsewhere anyway.

Just so people will know I have been to the captive breeding facilities for lions. The lions are not wild as they might be in Tanzania but they are not pets at all. If you are on the ground outside the fence they will stalk you. I found it a litte disconcerting to say the least.

Mark

I don't care one way or the other about the canned vs wild debate. I would think that the canned population increases the gene pool which can not help but be a good thing for the species as a resevior of genetic information.
Lee

I believe that canned Lion hunting takes a lot of pressure off the wild Lions, and I base that decision mostly from conversations with some of the better known PHs that I have talked to over the last few years, most of whom are in accord. The Lion market is the Lion market, you cannot seperate them, and if you can then you need to be in the booking business.

If nothing else it will certainly put wild Lions out of most of your pocketbooks, so if that is what you want then thats fine with me, I would rather have 15% of a $100,000 wild Lion than a $39,900.00 wild Lion.

Just think about it, It would be a financial boom for all booking agents and Safari Companies if the wild Lion hunts went sky high, self included, and I think they will when/if the canned hunts are illegal.

Maybe I am biting the hand that feeds me, but I hate to see hunting priced out of range for anyone, it's already there in many cases.

Just my opinnion, and apparantly many don't agree. So be it.

The most precious hunting resource in Africa are wild lions. They are the ultimate barometer of the health of wild African habitat for all the game we pursue. Anything that detrimentally impacts wild African lions is a detriment to our safari experience and dreams.

Thankfully, there is little or no contamination of the wild lion gene pool from captive lions. The genetic material resulting from multiple generations of captive breeding programs is worthless at best for wild lions. The genetic make-up of a cocker spaniel is of little value for wild wolves.

Wild lions are worth a lot, a WHOLE LOT. They should be priced accordingly. They are way out of my reach now and that doesn't bother me a bit. It doesn't make me want to go shoot a pen raised lion either.

I think canned lion shooting actually DECREASES the availability of wild lions for hunting. Generally the people going after canned lions are not the same as the hunters going after wild lions. At the margin though, some wild lion hunts compete on price with canned hunts. Here, the availability and price of the canned hunts can cause downward pressure on the price of certain wild lion hunts. Anything that lowers the value of wild lions is not good.

Marginal wild lion areas with low odds of success or low lion quality are probably most heavily impacted (with regards to price) by the availability of canned lions. If hunters won't pay a high price for these wild lion hunts then of course then there will less effort on the part of the government, the local populace, and safari companies to protect the wild lion resource. If wild lions were worth a million dollars each, we'd have plenty of them.

Wild lions require a LOT of real estate and there are conflicting demands for that real estate in many areas. Although few of us can afford a wild lion hunt, all of us benefit from the protection of all that lion real estate. It's the home for the rest of our wild game animals.

Where I hunted lion, Lobo and Lolkisale in TZ, there is quite a bit of human encroachment in the hunting areas. Those lions are expensive already but if they were worth $500,000 or $1,000,000 each and part of the money found it's way into the local economy, you can bet that there would be a concerted effort to protect their needed real estate.

Wild lions are a scarce and limited resource. Supply and demand will determine their value and availability. Canned hunting has no impact on wild lion supply and perhaps a modest negative impact on wild lion demand. There's no reasonable argument to be made that the availability of canned lions is good for wild lion populations.

Well said Forrest. I agree with you 100%...

I can't afford to hunt Lion but, they still matter a great deal to me.

I don't think that there is any substitute for a WILD African Lion....

Regards,
Dave

Yup to all.

Part of the evolution of lion hunting is that the wild populations are falling quickly. And like it or not, many fingers are being pointed at the hunters who (knowingly or not) are accused of taking immature male and pride male lions (this has been said before, but has anyone else noticed that the taxidermed lions on display at the SCI shows and in taxidermy ads are looking an awfully lioness-like lately?)

The South African game reserves have a proven record of bringing back endangered species to huntable levels. But the canned lion furor has caused ALL lion hunting there (and in Namibia) to be segregated in the record books and thus stigmatized (witness the emotional response to hhunting South African lions whether canned or not here in this forum).

So personal opinion and emotion aside, it suggest the greater issue for wildlife (if one truly cares about the future of the African lion rather than just getting a taxidermed one) perhaps is not "canned hunting" but how can wild lion populations be restored with hunting bans?

Right now, one of the best bets is to restore the credibility of South African lion hunting (which is evolving as shown in the proposed regulations). That will involve fences (whether or not one's belief is that fencing = canned).

One thing that I find impressive is the change in this forum. Before any mention of South African lion hunting would have brought a torrent of criticsm (and a lot of trolls riding on the emotion). Now it seems more are thinking a bit and becoming aware of the greater issues.

It's not a bad thing for the individual lion hunter either. There are a lot of greedy PH's and outfitters who convinced a client that their thinly maned trophy was "just the way lion are here" because of "brushing against thorn bushes" (gotta love that one; almost as funny/sad as how hunters are being used by the animal rights folks in the canned hunting issue - gotta hand it to the animal rights organizations . . . they are a lot smarter than we are.))

Hopefull there will be a day when client hunters can better age lions both in the field and in trophy rooms. When that happens, a lot previously proud hunters will be hiding their trophies in the closet. (I've already know of three lion hunters who hunted lion in South Africa after they got trophies in Mozambique and Zimbabwe because of the poor trophy quality - the lion PHs and outfitters might know more).

By the way, perhaps it's a good time to mention the "natural fear of man". One of the most noble things about male lion hunting is that he doesn't have a natural fear of man (unless he's been shot at or harassed by hunters or villagers). So if you find a unharassed one (male lions usually don't mover very far from bait), aside from the danger, they are very approachable and a straightforward hunt (ask the lion PHs if they are willing to tell you).

Now the lioness! Ah . . . she is the hunter with a hunter's heightened senses. A tough and much underated hunt (IM very HO).

Sorry, my typing is sloppy. "With hunting bans" abouve should be "without hunting bans".

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
The most precious hunting resource in Africa are wild lions. They are the ultimate barometer of the health of wild African habitat for all the game we pursue. Anything that detrimentally impacts wild African lions is a detriment to our safari experience and dreams.

Thankfully, there is little or no contamination of the wild lion gene pool from captive lions. The genetic material resulting from multiple generations of captive breeding programs is worthless at best for wild lions. The genetic make-up of a cocker spaniel is of little value for wild wolves.

Wild lions are worth a lot, a WHOLE LOT. They should be priced accordingly. They are way out of my reach now and that doesn't bother me a bit. It doesn't make me want to go shoot a pen raised lion either.

I think canned lion shooting actually DECREASES the availability of wild lions for hunting. Generally the people going after canned lions are not the same as the hunters going after wild lions. At the margin though, some wild lion hunts compete on price with canned hunts. Here, the availability and price of the canned hunts can cause downward pressure on the price of certain wild lion hunts. Anything that lowers the value of wild lions is not good.

Marginal wild lion areas with low odds of success or low lion quality are probably most heavily impacted (with regards to price) by the availability of canned lions. If hunters won't pay a high price for these wild lion hunts then of course then there will less effort on the part of the government, the local populace, and safari companies to protect the wild lion resource. If wild lions were worth a million dollars each, we'd have plenty of them.

Wild lions require a LOT of real estate and there are conflicting demands for that real estate in many areas. Although few of us can afford a wild lion hunt, all of us benefit from the protection of all that lion real estate. It's the home for the rest of our wild game animals.

Where I hunted lion, Lobo and Lolkisale in TZ, there is quite a bit of human encroachment in the hunting areas. Those lions are expensive already but if they were worth $500,000 or $1,000,000 each and part of the money found it's way into the local economy, you can bet that there would be a concerted effort to protect their needed real estate.

Wild lions are a scarce and limited resource. Supply and demand will determine their value and availability. Canned hunting has no impact on wild lion supply and perhaps a modest negative impact on wild lion demand. There's no reasonable argument to be made that the availability of canned lions is good for wild lion populations.

Saved for posterity

About hunting lion behind fences; a typical male lion's territory in the wild will be between 50 - 100 square km depending on prey availability and hence females for breeding. Fenced areas/ranches normally have very good "prey" populations so 50 square km could be the average to base a "fair chase" lion hunt on a fenced ranch. So a "fair chase" lion hunt behind fences should reproduce this "average" territory for EACH AVAILABLE PRIDE LION WITHIN THAT FENCED AREA! How easy is that to artificially replicate? Unless an outfitter wants to sell just one male lion hunt every 2 years (based on SA new regulations for released lions) it just won't be economical for a rancher/outfitter to offer "fair chase" lion hunts behind high fence! And at what cost do you think these lion hunts would go for? I can tell you they would be very, very close to current prices for wild lions hunts if not more expensive. And certain regulations would need to be adhered to, IMHO, such as "no shooting zones" within 1 km of the boundary fence to keep the outcome of the hunt "sporting". The only advantage to the hunter is that if successful, he would most probably secure an outstanding trophy

Personally, I would even question whether the 2 year "grace period" on released lions on a ranch is sufficient. I would hazard that 3 years would have to be the minimum to allow these males to occupy a free territory and be able to complete at least one reproductive cycle (breed and raise 1 set of cubs to independence).

Frankly I can't see anyone attempting to turn such a venture into a viable operation that can compete price wise with existing "fair chase" wild lion hunts.

As far as the future of hunting? well, at current prices and with more stringent regulations coming into effect throughout Africa that will control the "kind" of male lion that is being shot, I think it is pretty safe. Gov and stakeholders will not allow such a valuable resource to disappear entirely. There might be fewer areas to hunt lion down the road but those few successful operations will continue offering these hunts for a very long time to come.

Forest are you serious? Comparing captive bred lions to Cocker Spanials. Give me one generation to raise a lion and a dog and if I gave you a choice to enter either cage with either starving animal. I have no doubt if you are a rational person, you would be playing with the dog. How many generations removed are lions from the wild vs dogs? Haven't the cape lions been bread back from the brink of extinction? I hope an expert can address this question. Thanks, Lee

Zoo lions have often proven themselves to be a danger to their keepers. That's not much of a test.

Survival of the fittest is a basic law of nature. Drop a pen raised lion in an area populated by free ranging wild lions and see how long he lasts.

ForrestB,

I don't think that is a fair argument because I'm sure if you took ANY outsider lion (even if he was 100% wild) and dropped him in a totally new territory that was already occupied by a pride, he would also be killed.

Are some of you trying to say that a lion "bred" and "raised" in captivity within a small enclosure will be as dangerous as a wild lion? OH my.....

Full on lion breeding centres that sell to "canned" or "put and take" lion operators are not too dissimilar to a chicken breeder. Large stockades or wharehouses subdivided into tiny individual pens with 1 or 2 lions in each one. Lion is then either shot right there within that pen or drugged and then released the morning of the hunt in a larger enclosure.

Come on let's not try to disguise it for what it is!