This is an underlying theme to many discussions here regarding high fence hunting, hunting with dogs, captive bred animals, put and take, culling, and wildland hunting. This is not about ethics but about defining shooting vs hunting. So what is the defining line between shooting an animal and hunting an animal?


Is hunting on 500 acres behind a high fence hunting or shooting?

Is shooting a Bison at 20 yards hunting?

Is treeing a mountain lion or leopard with dogs and waking up and shooting it out of a tree actually "hunting".

Is walking for 5 or more miles in wildland settings considered hunting?

Is driving down logging roads and shooting an elk hunting?

Is snaring or trapping an animal and then shooting it "hunting".

In a high fenced environment, how long must the animal be allowed to roam before killing it makes it a hunt vs a shoot?

Is staking out a waterhole or feeder or food plot hunting or shooting?

Is shooting a domestic animal ever considered hunting?

If it takes more than 20 minutes to find and shoot an animal is that hunting?


So where do you draw the line? Or is there no distinction between the two?

I do both and enjoy them

But when does shooting become hunting?

Shooting becomes hunting when there is no absolute certainty of a kill. If a hunter goes to a high fenced ranch in Texas with the intention of just shooting any deer at a feeder, it is just a shoot, because the deer will almost certainly show up. If he goes to the same ranch, and limits himself to a fully mature buck, preferably with a minimum of 10 points, and scoring over say, 130 BC, he may or may not be successful in the allotted time. Then, he is hunting.

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Originally posted by Opus1:
But when does shooting become hunting?

I don't think I should decide the answer for you and don't want you deciding for me

In the eye of the beholder
But if you really want an answer, it's when the goat is tied down ... that's shooting

Each person may have a very different idea for this answer and I think this is the start to all the problems we have as hunters. Everyone needs to make there way better or tell others they are not doing it the right way.

I have traveled to new mexico many times over the last few years. I have done what I thought was hunting by hiking and walking over a 100 miles on each of my archery elk hunts. Only to see most local hunters drive around hunting for elk. I thought I was hunting and so did they.

I see some one write on here if you take a mature buck of 130 or better on a high fence place passing on young bucks that is hunting. Well way is that right if someone was to walk around stalk a smaller buck not over a feeder. Did that hunter not hunt or is size what makes it hunting.


Here is what I think the best answer is I ever heard and it is nice and simple.
I don't think I should decide the answer for you and don't want you deciding for me

I am sick of the fenced bs or the why don't you just have them chain it up for you. I think most people are smart enough to realize what is fair and sporting.

If tracking down a lioness in the sand till you see her on 10,000 acres after being out and hunting on her own for months. If that is not good enough then I guess I don't know what hunting is anymore.

Even when I do a raised pheasant hunt were the birds are stocked with in hours of me hunting them I think it is hunting. The dog works the same as if it was some big field in south Dakota. They point them we flush them I shot them. Why do I need to do it like this now. Well because PA has next to no wild birds and all the land I hunted has houses on it.

Why do I do it like that now, Well I wanted my son to be able to enjoy bird hunting to. Is it the same as when I grew up well no but it is the best I can do for him locally. Would we both like to hunt like I did 30 years ago well yes we would but that time is past.

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Originally posted by jjbull:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
But when does shooting become hunting?

I don't think I should decide the answer for you and don't want you deciding for me

Exactly!

It's really very very simple. Shooting requires firing a shot, pulling the trigger, letting an arrow fly, say it however you like. Hunting does not

It´s called shooting when the experiencing of hunting it was left out.

The difference between hunting and shooting has a parallel in buying yachts. Hunters also don't have to ask.

Bill Quimby

What is the end goal of hunting? Is it not to shot something if not would we not be like all the bunny huggers and shot them with a camera instead.

Time some people get real and stop just saying what they think people want to hear or to make themselves feel like they are just not killing stuff because they can.

I am sure a whole lot of people would have gave up if they did not shot and kill anything after many trips.

The sooner we stop trying to judge others and fight the fight together we will be way better off. It gets old saying it but you don't like it don't do it that way. Just stop talking shit and helping the anti's by bashing other hunters because it may not be your thing.

One is living, one is simply taking a life.

To me:

The difference between hunting and shooting is that when I'm hunting I may not get a shot.

A lot of really good analogies in the above posts...

How do you judge this scenario - Say a PH operates a 20,000 acre high fenced farm. He knows every single head on his property - after all this represents 100% of his investment and he knows his portfolio like you know your 401K plan. He knows the origin of each (birthed on farm or delivered from market) he knows the population numbers, he know the approximate trophy size of each, and he knows the general area that each species likes to inhabit on his 20,000 acre farm. He knows he has one 60" Kudu that was purchased as a breeder three years ago but is no longer useful so it’s on a butcher’s bill. Knowing that you want a 60" Kudu (and who wouldn’t) offers a package deal to you - 8 Heads including a 60" Kudu. He then walks and/or drives you around in circles for 5 days knowing full well that you are nowhere close to the Kudu. On the 6th day he then drives you to where the 60" Kudu hangs out. Within 100 yards of the Cruiser you see and shoot your 60" Kudu.

Was that a hunt or was it a shoot?

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
To me:

The difference between hunting and shooting is that when I'm hunting I may not get a shot.

When I go dove hunting I am pretty certain I am going to get a shot. The birds are wild. Is this not hunting?

If you want to shoot, shoot. If you want to hunt, hunt. If you want to do both or either, do it. Hell with other peoples' opinions. I don't need validation from the op or responders.

Was looking for opinions; not handing out validations or condemnations...

If the animal(s) have the opportunity to detect, escape and avoid the hunter, then it is hunting.

This is regardless of fenced/free-range, captive-bred/wild born, how far away from the car you are, how long the shot was, etc.

quote:

If the animal(s) have the opportunity to detect, escape and avoid the hunter, then it is hunting.

It's really as simple as this...

All I know is -- hunting is not shopping. If it has an ear tag or variable price tag, the "hunt" stops and the shopping begins. Unless the price of a second animal's trophy fee is pre-arranged and known. That's a bargain.

I would agree that if the success is 100%, then it is not hunting. Larry, you will get a shot at doves, but you may not kill them. I always see quail in the desert, but I may not kill them.

As for the "if you never see the fence it doesn't matter" argument, as I said on another post, the game can't leave. So given the drought in Namibia, gemsbok go where they have grass if the property is unfenced. When fenced, not matter how large, they can't leave. Big difference IMO.

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Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

If the animal(s) have the opportunity to detect, escape and avoid the hunter, then it is hunting.

It's really as simple as this...

I agree.

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Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I would agree that if the success is 100%, then it is not hunting. Larry, you will get a shot at doves, but you may not kill them. I always see quail in the desert, but I may not kill them.

As for the "if you never see the fence it doesn't matter" argument, as I said on another post, the game can't leave. So given the drought in Namibia, gemsbok go where they have grass if the property is unfenced. When fenced, not matter how large, they can't leave. Big difference IMO.

I hear what you are saying. I have hunted on a place that is fenced but us 40 MILES across. They may not be able to leave the property but the animals can sure get the hell away from me.

So now if your going to get something it is just killing not hunting. So if the person cant shot worth a shit and behind fence he is a hunter but if I hunt behind fence and I can shot I am not a hunter once again.

I guess because you think it is good for animals you don't see man made waterholes as some kind of fence. because the place in unfenced and mostly a wasteland other then were man had improved it that is all good. I mean after all so many wild animals just roam around barren ground and not hang around the only water on some place. Lets get real we all know the 100,000 acre areas don't have game on all the acres.

Dam some of you need to get over yourselves and your perfect world that is in your head. Those days are gone.

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Those days are gone

Explain...

If we jump back to the lion issue for a moment, there are many countries open and offering free range lion hunting.

Answers below in RED.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
This is an underlying theme to many discussions here regarding high fence hunting, hunting with dogs, captive bred animals, put and take, culling, and wildland hunting. This is not about ethics but about defining shooting vs hunting. So what is the defining line between shooting an animal and hunting an animal?


Is hunting on 500 acres behind a high fence hunting or shooting? COULD BE.

Is shooting a Bison at 20 yards hunting? WHERE ARE YOU FROM? THEY'RE BUFFALO.

Is treeing a mountain lion or leopard with dogs and waking up and shooting it out of a tree actually "hunting". HOW DO YOU TREE ANYTHING ABOVE THE TIMBER LINE OR IN A SWAMP? NOW, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. THINK ABOUT IT.

Is walking for 5 or more miles in wildland settings considered hunting? NO. MUST BE SIX MILES AT LEAST.

Is driving down logging roads and shooting an elk hunting? ONLY IN A FORD F150.

Is snaring or trapping an animal and then shooting it "hunting". NO, IT'S TRAPPING.

In a high fenced environment, how long must the animal be allowed to roam before killing it makes it a hunt vs a shoot? AT LEAST ENOUGH TIME TO TURN AROUND ONCE.

Is staking out a waterhole or feeder or food plot hunting or shooting? IT'S DIFFERENT FOR WATERHOLES AND FEEDERS. WATER IS NECESSARY; FOOD IS SEMI-OPTIONAL.

Is shooting a domestic animal ever considered hunting? NO, UNLESS IT'S HIDING FROM YOU.

If it takes more than 20 minutes to find and shoot an animal is that hunting? DEPENDS.


So where do you draw the line? IN THE SAND. Or is there no distinction between the two? THE QUESTION ANSWERS ITSELF.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Those days are gone

Explain...

If we jump back to the lion issue for a moment, there are many countries open and offering free range lion hunting.

But it is not the same as say 20 years ago.

And if you think of how hunting in the states has changed in 20 years. When I started you could get tags for almost all the states no problems. Now you try and draw tags and why is that? because there is not the land or amount of animals for everyone to hunt as they wish. So we have places that raise animals now for hunters to hunt as they want. Just think of how many game ranches have opened in the states. Think of how Africa has changed? Less quota overall for most big 5. Sa bringing game numbers back to record levels but behind fence for a market.

Hunting is not what is was and changing just like other things in our lives. Fighting about fences and raising animals because we did not need that stuff years ago is just crazy to me.

DO I like that some guy can go buy a 400 inch bull elk or a 200 inch whitetail. No I do not but I am never going to bash it either because I will not do it.

My personal opinion is that anytime there is a "guarantee" involved, either outright stated or known by the outfitting party then it's shooting/collecting.

- 100% success rates are a normal give away.

- same 100% success rate regardless of hunting instrument - rifle, bow ect is a give away

- if a particular animal can be bought ordered or delivered to a given party is a give away

- hunt durations that are abnormally short - kill 3 lions in 2 days ect are a give away

- if the animal has a ear tag, is microchipped, has a birthdate on a excel spreadsheet is a give away

I have no problem with people shooting chattel. The issue is most of these chattel shoots are sold as hunts. No one is selling canned lion hunts at a live stock convention - they are sold as DSC and SCI.

If one is too embarrassed to display the trophy or write a hunt report to other hunters it is a give away

Mike

When you shoot an elk like this and dont tell everyone about it



But are more proud of an free range axis like this that was a free range hunt



Side note - the axis was shot in 30 minutes. That was the luck factor in hunt.

The elk was shot over 2 days and was a great experience but end of day it was a shoot not a hunt. The elk was hunted at someone private preserve - they wanted elk shot had too many old ones.

Mike

Young bloke that works for me is into guns and stuff. His idea of "Hunting" is to drive around the paddocks at night with the spot light. He never gets out of the vehicle.

To me that's shooting. Stalking/walking, looking for sign etc is hunting.

When it comes to high fence/small paddocks hunting.....I just don't care what you do. When I was younger I supposed I looked down my nose at high fence hunters, now I take the view that Saeed has said numerous times, If its legal then fill your boots and have fun. Would I hunt behind a high fence, nope, but that's just my view. If other people want to, then good on em.

Mike, I see you took the Elk with your signature "Knee shot". Where did the other 29 rounds wind up? :-)

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Originally posted by Biebs:
Mike, I see you took the Elk with your signature "Knee shot". Where did the other 29 round wind up? :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mike, I see you took the Elk with your signature "Knee shot". Where did the other 29 round wind up? :-)

When your shooting chattel it's all over the place biebs - my view is never close a box of ammo after it has been opened. Only sealed boxes of ammo are fresh.

Mike

Good point :-) Nice Elk!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Good point :-) Nice Elk!

I left him at the taxidermist.

Mike

This is my 34th year hunting Africa.

I have hunted in three countries; Zimbabwe and Tanzania, free range, and South Africa on farms.

I have had much easier opportunity to shoot animals in both Zimbabwe and Tanzania, than some of the animals I shot on a farm in South Africa.

In certain areas - Chete in Zimbababwe for instance. One has to be able to do a bit of walking to be able to hunt.

The area was terrible for some people, who are unable to walk in some rough areas to be able to shoot anything.

I like walking, and I found Chete a great place to hunt - especially that I hunted at the end of the season, and was able to shoot all the buffalo left on quota.

Being able to hunt and shoot buffalo in double digits is a buffalo hunter's dream.

We did this for 5 consecutive years

I shot the larges buffalo I have ever shot there.

It has one broken horn, and still measured 49 inches.

I suppose some here might not classify that as an actual hunt.

As we were driving to a leopard blind in the afternoon, saw him and another bull running into the hills a few yards from us.

We jumped out of the truck, and a few minutes later we had two buffalo down.

We left them there, drove to the leopard blind, and sent the truck back to pick them up.

quote:

It has one broken horn, and still measured 49 inches.