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By hunting one HAND RAISED AND THEN RELEASED Lion you are sure to save the wild Lion of Africa. You know nothing about hunting or the value of Conservation Penny. HUNTERS PAYS FOR CONSERVATION. Can anyone explain this bs? Sure you can say you take the pressure of the wild lion but thats not true because each any every country in Africa have their own quota how many lions they can take each year and that have nothing to do with breeding lions to be shot in RSA. All this breeding game to be released one week later is all about money..not the lion | ||
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And that is FACT - no more no less and with the ever increasing pressure being exerted on the hunting of natural born wild lions, the breeders have found new markets emerging beyond their borders - that too is FACT. | |||
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perhaps for the breeders/sellers, not for the "hunters", and not for the rest of us. I have truly come to believe that the only interest I (and most others) have in this issue is one of private property and what can be done with it. Once you remove the fog of speciesism which truly has no place (IMHO), a cultivated lion is no different than any other piece of livestock, and the owner should be able to do with it as they please. It should live or die at the convenience of those that own it. It has no direct conservation value, the state has no investment or liability, it is purely chattel. We need to be careful when shaking our fingers at people, telling them what they can or cannot do with their own property, once that authority is established, it will be used against you in short order. | |||
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Beautifully written. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Ditto 505 gibbs and fairgame. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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 ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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lol atleast I have Fulvio at my side  . It should be banned..A good start now it is illegal to import skins from RSA lions to Europe. | |||
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Well said! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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Hi Brad, You and I have disagreed on some things...but you are 100% correct here. I hope every U.S. citizen remembers your wours words of wisdom this November. A pen raised lion is just another head of livestock...nothing more. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Yep, I too agree with you Brad - 100%!!!!! | |||
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Holy shit, I'm gonna start a fan club. | |||
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Strictly an anomaly. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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505, you are correct in your observation regarding private property and you can include me in your "Holy shit fan club". Tom ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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I guess I'm a dissenter. I find canned lion hunting distasteful and disgraceful. For anyone to pose next to such a trophy is a sick joke. I've been an avid hunter all of my life, but that isn't hunting. Is it illegal, no. Lots of things are legal that I wouldn't do or want my sons to do. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I too think it is purely property. Property rights are a good thing. As for the "value" towards conservation- if they can sell lion bone meal to the SE Asians cheaply enough, maybe the value of poaching will go down. Just because its not my idea of a hunting trophy doesn't mean someone else had a cherished dream come true. Heck, some folks shoot cattle here in the US... So what? As far as the whole canned lion thing, as long as the hunt operator (or TV show) isn't misrepresenting anything who cares? | |||
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No different than tripping the captive bolt on a fat-steer ready to put into the freezer. Just a harvest of livestock. Would I do it or call it a lion hunt??? Hell NO! But if there is a market...it is just livestock to sell. It actually does not bother me at all to shoot the lion...it is just NOT a hunt and the misrepresentation of the "hunt part" is where I call foul. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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How about raised and released Pheasant and Quail? Put & Take trout? Or is it only putty cats that bother you? ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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npd345 Dont hunt "ditch chickens." Grouse only. But they do seem to keep the raptors happy. As for fish, gimmie a 7 inch wild brook on an Adams. | |||
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Good for you. Do you stand on a bridge in Pennsylvania and scream at all the trout fisherman lined up on opening day at most put and take streams telling them how much you dispise what they are doing? I doubt it. So what is it about Lion animal husbandry and those that pay to shoot one that bugs you? Seriuosly!! I wouldn't hunt a Lion in RSA but I don't give a shit if someone else does. I certainly respect the offering posted that started this whole "discussion" as being up front and truthful. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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It's not farming, it's fake dangerous game hunting plain and simple. You asked for opinions, you got one. I'm not protesting it, not trying to make it illegal, as far as I'm concerned you can screw your own cows if you want to (of course that's probably illegal even though they're private property). Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Frostbit, what is truthful about the first post on this thread? | |||
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It's all very well to want to safeguard property and livestock rights. However at the end of the day it is the perception of hunters and hunting and overall public opinion that sways a lot of the decision making. Look at all the hoopla with global warming and polar bear hunting for an example. I guarantee you that the non-hunting public and the majority of US hunters (as they don't know the details and even if they did) will have a big issue with shooting canned lions vs. released pheasant. To presume they can be the discussed and compared in the same context is absurd. | |||
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While I find the fake part distasteful as well...if there is a market for the farmed lion...the lion is no different from a steer, sheep, or a pig. It is harvested and its body is utilized by man. But agreed...for the life of me...can't figure out why anyone would want to drive up to a lion in a pen and shoot it with a rifle but that is just me...don't blame the game farmers for doing it as long as they are honest about it. But then again...anybody stupid enough to be fooled that a canned lion is really wild...well I got property with a glacier on it to sell here in TX...as I endure the 100+ heat! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The end is near. "...Africa. I love it, and there is no reason for me to explore why. She affects some people that way, and those who feel as I do need no explanation." from The Last Safari | |||
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Not much except perhaps less pressure to hunt wild lions for those to hunt pen raised ones. Anton, when I spoke about truthful I was referring to the hunt offer giving facts that the Lion was captive raised, the size of the "hunting" area, and how many days prior the Lion would be released. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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 ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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you nailed it Brad. lions in this situation are livestock to be disposed of as the owner sees fit. if it is legal under local laws, so be it. not for me but that is a matter of personal preference. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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You're right Anton! Put and Take hand have nothing to do with conservation. I agree in general with 505gibbs. But I think we have to draw a line somewhere. Lion is livestock -> ok Lion gets killed to make profit -> ok Lion gets released to get shot for fun -> not ok from my point of view Nobody here has a problem with animals beeing farmed for food, leather or fur. But I think most people want to see that this is done in a ethical way. Is it ehtical to release an animal to shoot it for fun? Another point is that put&take hunts cast a poor light on all hunters, period. | |||
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I fail to see how anyone who understands the real situation with captive bred lions can draw a parallel between captive bred lions & other livestock such as cows, pheasants, quail & trout. The lion is kept in a pen all it's life and then dumped in an area that he doesn't know, can't find water, can't find it's own food source, probably wouldn't know how to hunt it if it could find it & doesn't know the escape routes of the area to evade it's pursuers. A lot of people seem to think these pen bred lions are released into the area for a considerable period before being hunted and that simply isn't the case. They're only in there for hours or days before the shooter comes in and the reason for that is simple economics because of the cost to the landowner for the animals it'll eat if given anything approaching a proper wilding period. This is why the breeders association fought so hard against the proposed legislation a few years ago. If you doubt that, take out a calculator and work out the costs of just 1 x impala at US$100 a day for 6 months, let alone a longer period & discounting the fact that to a lion, a kudu, nyala or sable etc worth many times the cost of an impala is just as good a meal as an impala. Then consider the fact that (despite what some people might claim) these lions make absolutely no contribution to conservation because they're not wild and nor is the area they're released into and that the only contribution they make to anything is dollars to the breeders bank accounts & a contribution to a braggarts trophy room. And then consider that every time one of these shoots happens, it gives ammunition to the antis for them to use against us when the time is right. Currently, release periods vary from province to province but to the best of my knowledge, none are monitored so the breeder is free to claim a period of whatever is legal but reduce that period in reality. As for the claim that captive bred lions save the wild lions of Africa...... that has to be the biggest load of old tripe I've ever heard. One has nothing to do with the other and what is needed is correct management of the wild lions but that of course will mean increased prices and a number of people wanting but not being able to have a lion in their trophy room...... but y'know what, I want a mid 60s Mercedes SL & a Westley Richards drop lock double but I have to accept I can't have them. (I'm open to offers of gifts though!)  I personally believe that captive lion breeding & shooting (it surely ain't anything like hunting) is one of the the greatest threats to African sport hunting that exists today. A few years ago, Minister van Shalkwik (sp?) had the chance to start putting this whole issue to rights and he baulked at the challenge at the very last minute and that stupid decision has harmed true sport hunting immensely. If I had my way, the practice would be outlawed entirely throughout the continent. | |||
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Steve: Do you know what the real truth was that led to his reluctance to push the Law through?....that he "baulked at the challenge" sounds somewhat unconvincing if you ask me. | |||
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I only know the official story of course but that was along the lines of the lion breeders association threatened to sue (I believe) both him & the Governmunt for destroying their industry. As I understand it, the spineless wanker caved in and removed lion from the list of dangerous animals.   So there you have it. According to the SA Govt & van Schalkwik, captive bred lions aren't dangerous.  | |||
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Steve: Well I can only guess they convinced him that by being hand fed, shampooed, blow-dried and ball massaged is sufficient proof that they cannot be as dangerous as they are purported to be  | |||
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Let me say that I too agree that the "captive bred lion thing" has nothing to do with wild lion conservation. My stance was that I support the right of a farmer to market his livestock (read lion here) if a market exists as long as it is humanely done. We CANNOT make the case that shooting a captive bred lion in a pen with a .375 is inhumane and in the same breath say it is humane to shoot a wild lion...cause the one thing that the 2 do have in common is the way the lion dies. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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There seems to be no shortage of captive lion hunts available or hunters who defend them, but there is a definite shortage of "hunters" who admit to doing it. Fact is, no one on AR has admitted to it. | |||
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One South African "PH" that added me on FB even put out that you can have them battle scarred also.....I can only wonder how they get the scars.. | |||
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Lane: A catchy phrase that one!.....I'm sure I've heard something on those lines in another thread...  | |||
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A wild lion dies knowing his area & it's escape routes, with a lifetime of experience of the wilderness & his senses sharpened to the nth degree whilst a captive bred one dies not knowing where the hell he is and/or often even which way is up & with no experience whatsoever of the wilderness & with his senses blunted beyond belief by a lifetime in captivity. The only thing they have in common is that in both instances it's a bullet that puts their lights out. To pretend otherwise is (IMO) to try to defend the indefensible & justify the money grubbing breeders & the braggarts who want a lion in their trophy room but lack the backbone and/or the finances to do it properly..... that comment isn't meant to criticise those that lack the money for a real lion hunt but is meant to criticise those who lack the ethics to recognise & live with that fact. I've said it before & I'll say it again. When the day comes that all lion hunting & probably all African sport hunting is banned, people will look back & say one of the major causes of the ban was the breeding & shooting of captive bred lions. | |||
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No sir...it'll be because the world is finally inhabited by a population of ignorant common-senseless people larger than the population of ones that aren't. When it gets to that point...I hope God feels it necessary for a few of the good ones left to build an ark. I am just 3 generations away from people that fought indians (Native Americans) off their ranches to hold the land. The ancestory that I was cut from did what they pleased with the animals they raised and would fight to keep that right. And I can guarantee that if they could have raised a lion and had someone come shoot it for $30K...they would have had no problem with it. They would have been laughing all the way to bank. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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