The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting SCIF Donates $217,000 in last fiscal quarterGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Larry, Every single African PH I have talked to is not happy about how SCI takes their money. I know, you will probably tell me they have a choice. But, the fact of the matter is the SCI convention has become so big they feel they HAVE to participate. And of course SCI knows this, so they try to squeeze every penny out of them, under the guise that they pay a lot of it back into African conservation. This, as we have been asking for so long now, seems to be far from the truth. As no one has managed to get us any figures. Last year a number of posters posted some figures. Which did not amount to much at all. | |||
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"SCI convention has become so big they feel they HAVE to participate", this is crap. DSC is before and they have all the big outfitters in africa are there. They (outfitters) know doing Reno will benefit them so they go and pay to have the BEST location available. There is great compatition for the best spots. Since this is the USA where comatition is still partially in vogue it is the best way to allocate spece. This complaint is just a sorry ass complaint. Nothing more and nothing less. | |||
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I know that I'll end up regretting tossing in my 2 cents but: The real issue seems to be, as Saeed pointed out, PH's and outfitters are not happy with the cost, both in dollars and donations, of participating in SCI's annual show. My reaction is simple: tough! What lies at the bottom of the ill feeling is a simple transaction. PH's and outfitters, for profit entities, look to SCI for one thing, and one thing only, access to the market. SCI's show is a large, probably the largest, gathering of potential customers for the PH's and outfitters. SCI charges for that access. Like any commercial activity there is a cost benefit relationship. If the cost outweighs the benefit than don't pay. There are other marketing vehicles out there. I understand that PH's and outfitters would prefer a lower cost for access to the customers, hell, any savings will drop right to their bottom line and everyone likes to make money. I also understand that market access is valuable and those who can control it will charge for that access. Net, net the Safari industry is just that, an industry, a business. All the moaning and groaning is about whose pocket the money goes in to. What I find humorous is that much of the arguing is done by those who whose money only goes one way: out. I'm sure that SCI and the PH/outfitters love having their members and clients(customers) fighting their battle for them. Guys, I have a message for you, both SCI and the PH/outfitters are in it for one thing: your money. They both want a bigger part of the pie and they both want you to pay for it. Don't ever forget that our avocation is their business. I belong to both SCI and DSC because I want access to the industry suppliers: ph's, outfitters, gun & equipment manufacturers etc. Industry suppliers take booths because they want access to guys like me. SCI and DSC charge both of us for putting us together. As long as they I perceive that the access is worth the price I'll pay it, same for the suppliers. According to Saeed the PH's and outfitters feel that the SCI show offers access to a market that they cannot afford to miss. They would like to pay less for that access, tough, I'd like to pay less for my Buffalo. It's a business boys and girls wake up. Saeed, and the rest of the usual suspects on both sides, it ain't your fight. The PH's, outfitters and SCI officials may be great people, but they are united in one endeavor; they want your money. I suggest that you leave the fight to those who have a dog in it. TerryR | |||
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Thanks Terry, and to the rest of this string good bye. | |||
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TerryR "I want to pay less for my buffalo" Chances are that if PHs/outfitters paid less for the cost of market access, then you would probably pay less for your buffalo. Any cost borne by a operation is passed on to the client, so ultimately you the client will bear the increasing costs of shows/access to ......you. There are only 2 types of complaint ...FOUNDED and UNFOUNDED. If these complaints are unfounded, lets see SCI take a positive proactive role in dealing with them and putting the record straight. If they are founded, lets see SCI correct , or at least take positive steps toward correcting the problems.Both steps have one thing in common...BE PROACTIVE As someone who is neither pro or against SCI, I can see both sides of this argument. My Concern is that a great number of the people who argue against SCI , are in fact ex SCI members. Any entity that turns over a million bucks to make a $1000 profit is always going to raise eyebrows. When that million bucks is raised from members, more than eyebrows get raised.IF this perception is unfounded, get the correct information out there and silence the critics. Has SCI made a concerted effort to reduce cost structures for both exhibitors and members and within their own environment??. Given the Global economy, perhaps this would go a long way to alleviating some of the criticism. I have certainly heard the comment from an SCI member "SCI gets bigger whilst the rest of us go down the tubes" . This PH exhibited at SCI for years until cost forced him out. Bottom line ...INFORMATION is key . You cant please everyone all the time, but as a public entity you should damn well try!! | |||
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And to add insult to injury, they auction the very same hunts they squueze out of their customers. So the outfitters and PHs get less chance of getting enough business. | |||
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Exactly. SCI essentially extorts hunts that actually serves as competition for the outfitters who "donated" them. Then SCI uses a tiny fraction of that money for conservation with a larger portion of the money going to "salaries", "rent", and "office expenses". I have never been to an SCI convention and, in the age of the internet and AR, see absolutely no reason to attend. I can get all the information I need from outfitters directly when I find them online and I can check references that they provide or come here for additional information as necessary. If I want to spend money on African conservation, I will hunt there and spend my own money on the ground with the people who make it all happen. | |||
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10D - You said it all in your post "I have never been to an SCI convention". So all your information and complaints on SCI and their Convention are second hand. Don't feel bad, lots of others here have your same status. Enough said. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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Opinion, but a well researched one. If, IF SCI donated space free to every PH who requested it, the cost of hunting in Africa would not go down a dime. It's called ROI. If it did not pay off handsomely, they would NOT bring their wives and children and stay from the week before DSC until the week after SCI Reno. This is a frigging holiday that they get to take off their taxes in exchange for two four day work weeks. They also collect lots of cash in deposits, that an increasingly large percentage of goes into bank accounts they are setting up here for the proverbial "Rainy Day". A funny aside, we have not had a single PH or Safari Company say one word about the two conventions that was uncomplimentary. Write this down: IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!! This may seem oversimplified to some of you. Anything that seems complicated is designed, by the designer, on purpose, to be able to increase your costs to participate. Last thing; Life is NOT Fair. If it were, we would all have as much money as Saeed, a full head of thick curly hair, and be named to a paternity suit once a week, on average. Rich DRSS getting by nicely, thanks for asking... | |||
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I have never been in combat either, but I am pretty sure I don't want to be there! Frankly Larry, I see no reason not to believe that SCIs own publications and tax filings accurately represent the organization. If they do not then honestly that sort of deception represents all the more reason for me to avoid being part of the organization. I am simply not going to throw money at an entity where the majority of my contributions go to salaries, travel, rent, and office expenses. Much better to spend that money on hunting where I KNOW the money gets to the people involved in conservation. | |||
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for God's( or Allah's) sake this horse was beat to death years ago!!!!!!! let the poor thing RIP. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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If, IF SCI donated space free to every PH who requested it, the cost of hunting in Africa would not go down a dime. It's called ROI. If it did not pay off handsomely, they would NOT bring their wives and children and stay from the week before DSC until the week after SCI Reno. This is a frigging holiday that they get to take off their taxes in exchange for two four day work weeks. They also collect lots of cash in deposits, that an increasingly large percentage of goes into bank accounts they are setting up here for the proverbial "Rainy Day". A funny aside, we have not had a single PH or Safari Company say one word about the two conventions that was uncomplimentary. Write this down: IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!! Rich I have just done a little research of my own. Of 14 PHs I know, that attended SCI Reno last year, only 4 will be going back to the next one. All of the non returning PHs cite cost as the main reason. The others all run BIG outfits in at least 2 African countries.Of the 14, one took his wife and kids and the reason behind that was a family wedding. I dont beleive that it is fair to generalise about PHs and outfitters like that because the vast majority of them are hard working honest men and women who are trying to make a living in a tough competitive enviroment. As for not saying anything uncomplimentary, I am sure that is true. I dont beleive that anyone feels that the shows are not valuable marketing tools, however a lot are saying that costs are becoming unsustainable. In addition one outfit explained that complaining about SCI would only make things difficult for them in coming years and make things even more "expensive". I will leave you to draw your own conclusions . Lastly, I beleive the main gripe is not about the cost of SCI etc, but rather about the ratio between what SCI earns, and what they put back into Africa. I have said it before and I will say it again, I am neither for or against SCI, but it would be really great if someone could answer the few simple questions I asked earlier in the thread. | |||
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This I doubt. There is so much money to be had by chauffeuring us dudes around they can't help themselves. If some PH has enough clients slobbering after them in blind devotion then I can see why they wouldn't show up in Reno. Otherwise they'll be there. Nobody is forcing them to pay or make all that money!! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Precisely. | |||
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Doubt all you want. Its fact. Do yourself a favour and have a look at how many went 2 years ago, and didnt return last year. Your comments sound as if you resent the money that an operation makes. Perhaps thats a good idea for another thread.. Do PHS/outfitters/operators etc make too much money?? However I dont think it has anything to do How much Money SCI makes and how much goes back into Africa | |||
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You have every right to be mad about what SCI makes, money wise, off the PH's, which is dribble down from the clients. It always depends on what side of the fence you are on. The bottom line for me is what they do in court. If SCI and others were not constantly fighting all the do-gooders there would be no or little hunting in the USA, no exporting of trophies from Zim to the USA, and I suspect a lot fewer Zim PH's. I have great admiration for most of the PH's I have hunted with. Make all the money you can. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I have a hard time with PH's saying the $$$-outlay is too much and they are skipping DSC/SCI. Next thing, you'll be telling me some have said the cost of fuel is too high, and they are going back to the donkey cart or foot safaris... I see Ivan Carter there every year; he's is booked three years out, and gets a ton of free advertising on TAA every Sunday. With the cost of hunting Africa, customers want to know a bit about their PH. That's called face to face time. I also hear PH's every year talk about where they are taking their wives/family out to dinner that night. About PH's skipping DSC/SCI in 2011, it's why DSC is moving into a bigger venue, and SCI is planning on doing so. Business is booming son... Rich DRSS | |||
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Statement from a man who clearly spends a great deal of time in Zimbabwe , knows our economy inside out, and has a personal relationship with a great number of Zimbabwean PH's. Rich , do yourself a favour. contact SOAZ and enquire how many PHs are registered this year against previous years.I think you will find that the economic climate has taken its toll. At no stage did I say SCI was responsible for this downturn. I simply said that that costs(ie travel, accom, food and exhibition fees etc) were affecting operators. Finally foot safaris aint so bad...walking after game is bloody good fun....you should try it | |||
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Anybody who thinks the safari "business is booming" should take a poll of booking agents... I think they will hear quite a different answer. A handful of operators being booked 2 or 3 years out does not an industry make. Kinda like saying the housing business is booming because the top 5% of custom home builders still have a back log. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Further, I don't buy the top 5% of EITHER industry being booked years in advance. It never ceases to amaze me how many high dollar hunting outfits (supposedly booked years in advance) always seem to come up with end of season "cancellations". Of course, as long as the "convention bookers" are willing to keep subsidizing my end of season hunt, more power to them!  | |||
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ISS makes a good point about the PH's and all vendors for that matter doing, seeing and spending a lot of money over here in the good ole USA on their annual trek to SCI and DSC conventions. I for one appreciate all their contributions while on Holiday here, helps the local economy to no end. I think, actually know, that the dollars spent on actual SCI/DSC related expenses (Booth rental, hunt or product donations etc) is a small percentage of their overall outlay for the trip and stay over here. There are airfares, hotels, food, extended vacation sidetrips, even some hunting at times, gifts for those back home and on and on. Trival comes to mind. I personally know not of a single PH who is so disgruntled with SCI/DSC actual convention costs that they would not return for that reason. When they add up the bottomline and total expenses for their trip I am sure there are some, like some of us who don't travel to Africa every year, that have to make a decision to do the trip or not. Rest assured booth space and hunt donations is not a major cause or concern. Some here make it seem that the SCI Convention cost is the evil of all evils toward the PH's decision to visit our great Country. What a shortsighted bunch you are!! 10 D if you attended the SCI Convention you would know the fact that indeed some outfits ARE booked up many years in advance. But since you don't attend you will just have to remain clueless to this fact and rely on hearsay to fuel your rants. And thanks a lot for not helping out protecting our rights to hunt and just looking for CHEAP hunts to go on!! Larry Sellers SCI Life Member | |||
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All this Chicken Little "the sky is falling, the sky is falling..." did not translate in terms of the attendance at either venue. True, shoppers are looking a little more for value. A small percentage are cancelling by time the buying plane tickets stage arrives. The "hidden profit" for PH's is still there. Ask your PH next time, what becomes of the meat of the animals you shoot. Every member of the crew, including the PH are still getting very nice gratuities. Most booking agents have not had to close their offices and convert their garage to a home office. The crazy "got to get to Africa before the next Mau-Mau uprising" syndrome has faded. I intend, at the 2011 SCI, to ask PH's what percentage of their bookings are generated there. My estimate is about sixty-five to seventy percent. Rich DRSS | |||
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Larry, 1) Let me guess....having an opinion different than yours constitutes a "rant" while sharing your opinion constitutes eloquence? 2) I didn't realize SCI had the market cornered on fighting for hunting rights. 3) You have no idea how much I donate or don't donate, how much of my own time I spend to further wildlife conservation, or how much I spend on hunting generally. 4) Show me an outfitter who claims to be booked up years in advance and I will show you an outfitter who at some point in the last year has run a "cancellation" deal which was very probably no such thing. 5) Can you tell me where to get the SCI cool aid? I could use it when I meet a group of hunters I want to brainwash. | |||
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I wouldn't go so far as to say SCI is the only show in town, but they do have a monopoly. Who defends gun rights? Sure there are other groups besides the NRA, but if anyone though another group touches the NRA on gun rights they are kidding themselves! I think the same it true for hunting and SCI. Like SCI's record book or not it doesn't matter. Like SCI's convention or not it doesn't matter. Like SCI National/International's (not local clubs) expendature on grass roots or not it doesn't matter. What does matter is that no one spends as much on hunting and conservation lobbying and litigation as SCI. And again if anyone thinks otherwise they are kidding themselves. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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10D, For a start; call Chifuti and tell them you want to hunt Ele with Ivan Carter. As an aside; being critical of a person or organization insinuates that you consider there to be a problem with that entities behavior. There is an old, old saying: "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem...". As a member of SCI I donate time and money to local and global causes SCI espouses. It appears that you do not. You come across as critical, but with no suggestions of improvement. I have a neighbor down the road who loves to stop me and chat about US politics. Last week he was on another anti-obama tirade at the mailbox. I asked him "who did you vote for?". He said it wouldn't have made a difference, so he wasn't registered to vote and hadn't in several years. I told him we had to stop talking politics, since he had removed himself from that arena. That is the sort of response you are engendering here. You aren't putting a dime into SCI, so why should you care? The Bottom Line: they put $217,000 where their mouth is the last quarter. It is a legitimate question to ask you how much you pitched in to see how qualified you are to complain about their dollar amount. I am NOT tooting my own horn here, but I have donated over a grand to conservation causes this year, and over 200 hours time. It is a little, but it's what I can do. Nothing personal 10D, but you decided to chime in here. Now you have to live with the consequences of your actions. regards, Rich DRSS SCI Member NRA Life Member RMEF & DU too | |||
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Now I will agree with you there. I am a member of SCI, national and a local chapter. But I have never seen a trade organization (and really, for the good they do do, that is what they really are) that borders on a religion like SCI, as the length of this thread attests to. I've been in a Zim safari camp more than once with a fellow hunter that only wants to talk about friggin' SCI. That thar is a branding success story! | |||
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Terry - all you say is true except that you overlook the fact that many outfitters and PH's ARE hunters and real conservationists too and to them it is far, far more than being just about 'the money'. Not all are simply mercenary... If that were the case myself and others like me would do as our wives instruct and "get REAL jobs" A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Time to add info. Just received the Safari Times published by Safari Club INTERNATIONAL and they have an article about the 1st qtr donations by SCIF. $50,000 Newfoundland Canada - Caribou study $50,000 - Wyoming - Moose $52,000 - Asia Sheep $20,000 - Africa Lion Malawi $45,000 - Africa Leopard Namabia It appears Africa is the largest recipent of funds in this quarter. Yea I know it is never enough! | |||
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Still peanuts! That is probably no more than they squeeze out of a couple of African outfitters. | |||
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This is beating a dead horse but what the Hell! Every safari operator I know bitches about the cost of being involved in the the shows just like any other business person bitches about the cost of their overhead. The operators know that the shows offer the best opportunity for them to showcase their businesses and if they want to compete they have to attend. People can bash SCI as much as they want and for whatever reason they see fit but the bottom line is the safari operators need SCI. If pressed they will tell you "I need to have a presence here or people will think I'm out of business". If a hunter comes to a show looking for a hunt and does not find XYZ safari company that he was looking for he will book it with someone else. At the end of theday the hunting industry needs SCI. All the complaints are BS and basically irrelevant compared to the marketing opportunities offered by the show. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Here is my take on this issue. SCI is out to maximize the amount of dollars that it can take in. That is no different than any other conservation group. None of them can do the conservation projects they want to do without dollars and the more dollars they can generate the more projects they can do and they use what they do to sell more memberships. SCI's major fund raiser is their convention. It looks like they have a pretty good model for generating dollars although their gross/net ratio isn't the greatest in the world. If costs to the exhibitors becomes too high they will not come and SCI will have to make changes or lose exhibitors. I think it is called the "Free Market System". So far that doesn't seem to be the case. SCI has no responsibility to add to the exhibitors profits, it is simply a by product of their show. So I have no problem with them generating as much money as possible. Where I do have a problem with them is the ratio of dollars spent on the ground with their adm costs. Some of the conservation groups spend 85 to 95% of dollars earned on the ground. I believe SCI is down around the 60% level. But I may be wrong on that. I also have a problem with their ethics involving being in bed with shady outfitters and the secrecy of their board actions. Another area of concern is their reluctance to specify where their dollars are being spent on the ground. Most conservation groups proudly toot their horn on what they do. SCI seems to do the opposite. They appear to be reluctant to give out details on where their money is going. That makes me suspicious. Why would they not use their good work to promote their organization? 465H&H | |||
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The whole complaint thing is just plain BS. The reason for the post was "Give us details" of course I had said in the past this would not be satisfactory and in my post I already said what the response would be "Not enough". SCI has compettion for the "Hunting dollar" ie DSC, Houstion SC, Harrisburg, Pa show and many many many more in the states and also the international shows in Europe etc. Some people just have to something to bitch about. I would guess if SCI took in $10,000,000 and donated $11,000,000 there would still be complaints. It is also interesting they donated to a study that has nothing to do with hunting, go figure. | |||
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What Mark said, plus ONE! There are no viable options. I was lucky on my PH choices; MJ set me up with CM Safaris, and a friend here in town had hunted with my PH in RSA. That said, when I go to SCI Reno I look at all the offerings. Where else can you compare what XXXX dollars can get you. I am glad they have the convention. Rich Go Boise State Broncos, pre-season #3 | |||
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Give me proof of this and I promise to stop complaining! And as a bonus, I also promise to twist Steve's arms to stop complaining   | |||
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Saeed, I doubt that. | |||
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I can give you a signed, written agreement attested by the American Embassy | |||
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What would that be worth. | |||
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I'm already blue in the face, but what the hell....217k is the grass roots expenditure from SCI International which is primarily a political activist group like the NRA rather than a grass roots group. I find this entire line of thought ridiculous! No one complains about the NRA, but it's the SAME DAMN THING!!!!! NO DIFFERNCE AT ALL EXCEPT ONE IS GUNS AND THE OTHER IS HUNTING!!!!! If you don't like your dollars going to political advocacy then spend them on another organization or make sure the money is used on a grass roots project at the local chapter. I don't understand how someone can give their money to a political activist organization and then act supprised when the organization spends most of it on political activism! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett, We don't complain about the NRA because they do NOT blackmail their members to "donate" money and hunts with the excuse that this will be used for the good of African hunting. The NRA, as far as I can understand, IS a political orgenization, so them using the money for politiocal purposes is fine. SCI, on the other hand, claim to be a hunting orgenization, and they get most of their money from hunting outfitters. There is a world of difference between them. And just in case people forget, I am a Life Member of both. So I do support both orgenizations, but have absolutely nothing to complain about what the NRA is doing. Plenty to complain about SCI. Money spending is one. The so called "ethics" committee is the other one. | |||
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Brett, Even setting aside the issues that Saeed so rightly raises. If they're mainly a political activism/lobbying group as you say can you tell me why they've failed to address such long standing issues such as why USF&WS refuses to issue import licences for Mozambican elephant products despite the country having perfectly valid CITES quota and for some years has had a better elephant management plan than it's neighbours? - That issue has been going on for something like 30 years and they still haven't done anything about it. Another issue (of several) they could be addressing is the same thing with leopards from Ethiopia... USF&WS actually boast on their site that they've never issued an import licence for an Ethiopian leopard. Moving further afield, despite there being Australian chapters, they haven't helped those members overturn the ban on spotted cat and elephant products there. If they are mainly a political activism/lobbying group, they ain't very good at it mate!  | |||
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