This is NOT about The Irish shooting and eating their 1-year-old infants, in order to improve their socioeconomics and spare the spuds.
Hat's off to Jonathan Swift's satirical genius.
But hey, I am 31/32 Irish by blood,
though half of that was royalist blood fled from England when they beheaded the king.
And, even my 1/32 Cherokee blood think's that was funny.

My modest proposal was inspired by the thread entitled "A Simple Deduction," whereby any thinking man should have the epiphany:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...051045761#2051045761

Saeed's .375/404 Jeffery is the perfect cartridge for the big game hunter.
No other cartridge need apply.

Reasons:

1. All the bolt action rifles commonly used for hunting can only handle a cartridge case as wide in base diameter as that of the 404 Jeffery.
Mauser (standard or magnum M98), Winchester M70, Ruger, CZ, Dakota M76 African, etc., all are wide enough in the box and action bottom for nothing bigger.
Any cartridge bigger than a 404 Jeffery is just a "make-do" in a too skinny action, done by various gunsmithing tricks.
I challenge anyone to tell us of the rifle chambered for a .416 Rigby, 500 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs (or anything bigger IN BASE DIAMETER than 404 Jeffery),
that has a proper magazine box width by "Mauser Cosine Law."
Can't be done.

2. The minimum fully legal and effective bullet diameter with the best compromise for short and long range action: .375-caliber

3. Now we arrive at the .375/404 Jeffery by natural selection, and the perfect case is mated to the perfect bullet.
It beats the .375 H&H's mere adequacy by giving higher velocity with lower pressure,via greater case capacity.
It has no belted head, no rebated rim, and neck is longer for better neck tension on bullet,
and it is even slicker feeding than a 404 Jeffery due to the smaller bullet diameter slicking things up on the feed.
The 404 Jeffery has a minimum-taper case-body as it is, and gets its overall taper only from the long-sloping shoulder of about 8.5 degrees.
Add the way-long neck of about 0.620" length.
It cries out for "improvement."


So The .375/404 Jeffery of Saeed is arguably the best big game hunting cartridge possible.

My modest proposal: All members here should "kiss up" and do some hero worship by building a .375/404 Jeffery Saeed.
Carry a big stick and you shall go far.

First we have to get the reamer specs from Saeed.
Right Saeed?

The almost defunct 375 Dakota fits the bill,with some predating.

Way to go rip.

Mike

Do you think there is any possibility to get the ammo manufacturers to offer a full line of bullet weights and loadings for the 375 JS?

quote:

Originally posted by bobgrow:
The almost defunct 375 Dakota fits the bill,with some predating.

Bob,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
Very true about the .375 Dakota, and also the .375 Ruger, which would be easier for the common man making the "simple deduction."
Both fit within the size limits of the common action.
But neither does it as well as the .375/404 Jeffery, which is more "perfect" than either of those two,
when you do the survey of case design plus internal-external-terminal ballistics.

True, you can use a shorter action for both the .375 Dakota (COL +3.4") and .375 Ruger (COL -3.4").

The .375/404 Jeffery Saeed will work in the common .375 H&H length action (3.6" box) with all the OTC bullets available.
It has a brass length of only 2.820" (or less) versus the .375 H&H length of 2.850".
The Rigby-length .416 box (3.8") is only required for using long-nosed Walterhog bullets,
or seating out the OTC bulets for better performance.

My modest proposal is to use either a standard M98 Mauser with perfected custom bottom metal,
or the standard CZ 550 Magnum made sound with Kevlar stock, Timney trigger, and LaPour safety.
And a fluted stainless Lilja barrel, for flattery-by-imitation sake.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Way to go rip.
Mike

Mike,
Thanks for the encouragement, I think.
Unless you are just pulling my leg.
Do you see this "going" anywhere?

Oh...and I thought the .395 Tatanka was....I still like the idea of the .395...

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Do you think there is any possibility to get the ammo manufacturers to offer a full line of bullet weights and loadings for the 375 JS?

TasunkaWitkoConsulting:

The goal is a chicken in every pot, and a ".375 JS" in every safari hunter's hands! Thanks for the abbreviation.

Factory ammo:
Didn't Norma already copy the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed?

RIP,
"A Modest Proposal" is mentioned in all my Psychology and Sociology classes. A great read.

Now, on to Saeed's cartridge. I actually think the .395 Max, based upon the .375 Ruger is better. Reasons?
a. A bigger bullet within reason.
b. A decent-sized case within standard-length actions.
c. It is made in the U.S.A.
d. You came up with the bullet diameter.
e. I came up with the case selection.
All of the above are very important, except c, d, and e.

Max and Ed,
The .395s are special, aye, but, but ...
Let us not digress ...

Remember the .375 Blaser Magnum?
They claimed not to have copied any existing cartridge for their lineup.
*********************************************************************************************************
*********************************************************************************************************
"New generation of Magnum ammunition


In cooperation with Norma, Blaser has developed a brand new generation of high-performance cartridges.
No existing calibres were copied. Instead, the latest ammunition technology was applied to achieve the
optimum performance in each calibre group.


The new Blaser Magnum calibers are characterized by:

notably increased precision values
higher performance in terms of energy and speed at low gas pressure
more comfortable recoil effects
enhanced reliability
perfectly suitable for reloading


Thanks to an optimised cartridge geometry, stable cartridge base and modern powder types together with
4-groove barrel profiles and adapted twist rates, all development objectives have been achieved.


Actually Blaser offers the following loads:

7 mm Blaser Magnum: 9.1 g / 140 gr Nosler Accu-Bond
.300 Blaser Magnum: 11.7 g / 180 gr Barnes TTSX (lead-free)
.300 Blaser Magnum: 10.7 g / 165 gr Blaser CDP
.338 Blaser Magnum: 13.6 g / 210 gr Barnes TTSX (lead-free)
.338 Blaser Magnum: 13,0g / 200 gr Nosler Accu Bond
.375 Blaser Magnum: 17.5 g / 270 gr Barnes TSX


Blaser R93 and K95 models as well as barrels can be ordered in the new calibres
(.375 Blaser Magnum only available for R93).


Note

Blaser ammunition is not offered for sale, sold, or distributed in North America.
**********************************************************************************************************
**********************************************************************************************************

The .375 Blaser Magnum looks like the kissin' cousin of the .375/404J Saeed:

quote:

no rebated rim

Had Remington not rebated the rim, would this thread be possible?

One of the greatest thrills of my life to-date was to use an original 375/404J Saeed to take a cape buffalo. Just to carry it for 11 days was exciting. Consider me a fan!

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

no rebated rim

Had Remington not rebated the rim, would this thread be possible?

375 RUM = 375/404J Saeed Unimproved.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Had Remington not rebated the rim, would this thread be possible?

Baxter,
You are being too easy on the .375 RUM.
Compared to the 404J not only did Remington rebate the rim,
they also enlarged the head diameter by a similar amount, doubling the damage!

From my mature perspective, the .375/404J Saeed is much better than the .375 RUM.
And besides, you get to use Norma 404J brass of same quality as used in the Weatherby Magnums.
If there is one thing good about the Weatherby rifles, it is their Norma brass.

Imagine the insult of Blaser roughly copying Saeed's design and chambering it only in the Blaser abomination!

Sounds like some espionage by Walter happened there!
Always blame Walter!

Of course I do not know all the specifics of the .375 Blaser, but it is loaded for Blaser by Norma.
Presumably they use the 404J basic brass for it.

Ron the Unforgiven

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

375 RUM = 375/404J Saeed Unimproved.

Yep, just another me-too-cartridge poorly executed.

RIP...how about a case drawing, or a link to the wonder.

You don't need that much case capacity, even for elephant - the 375 H&H AI is just as good and you can shoot 375 H&H and 375 Weatherby ammo in the gun, should you lose your ammo on your trip to Africa or where ever. 375 H&H ammo is much more readily available.

Saeed doesn't even use all his capacity. Also, the 7mm, 300, 338, and 375 RUM series is just as good, if not better, since you can get USA factory chambered guns and factory ammo.

Many of these various calibers are more alike than different - there's no need for all these calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by bobgrow:
RIP...how about a case drawing, or a link to the wonder.

Bob,
I have been trying to get that for the last decade.
It is still top secret.
He did give me one of his fired cases in 2010 in Tanzania.

Stay tuned. More information may be forthcoming.
I want to build two rifles in .375/404 Jeffery Saeed ... someday.

AIU,
The .375 Weatherby of mid 1940s started it all, and is still the best of the .375 H&H Improveds. I have used it well,
have 3 rifles so chambered.
Yes, it has the advantage of firing common .375 H&H factory ammo, delivering slightly lower than H&H velocity thusly.

About having more velocity than you need and Saeed not maxing out his loads:

I do not like maxing out the loads.

The .375 Blaser is factory loaded by Norma with 300-grainers at less than 2500 fps.
They brag about getting .375 H&H ballistics at lower pressure.

I like loading a .375/300-grainer to about 2750 fps, at modest pressure. That gives just over 5000 ft-lbs.
Saeed has well proven that is ... ENOUGH GUN



Canuck did too:

RIP... thanks for the clarification. I suppose it makes one ask why Rem went through all the trouble and not just to what Saeed (or Dwight, right?) did?

I have noticed that Saeed usually just refers to it as 'our 374/404' and doesn;t always use the JEffery. This may make it even more perfect for we are then able to add our own personal suffix to make the cartridge individualized. For example, the 374/404 R.I.P (that's a good one aye?) or the 375/404 Baxtersaurus Rex, (another good one, that [comes with free book]) or 375/404 Will (comes with chaps and an elephant skin wallet in your choice of black or brown) or the 375/404 Atkinson (every 5th one fails to feed, just to be cantankerous), or 375/404 Shootaway (free supply of Molson included) or 375/404 Walterhog (loaded by Industries for the Blind).

I see lots of marketing potential for this round....

Cute, Baxter.

From 2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have not seen a 375 RUM case, so cannot give you a direct comparison of the two.
Here are some details of our 375/404, taken from a fired, resized case.

Length = 2.820"
Neck = 0.375"
Body length = 2.320"
Diameter at base = 0.542"
Diameter below the shoulder = 0.530"

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

I do not have the drawings for this cartridge, they are with my friend Dwight in the US.
I will ask him and let you know the exact measurements.

With a 240 Gr Bear Claw, we got 3162 fps with 99 grains of H4350.
With 300 Barnes X maximum was 2942 with 97.5 VVN 160.
With our own Walterhog 300 grain bullets we got 2948 with 93.0 grains of H4350.

Last year in Tanzania, we used 2 loads with our Walterhog bullets.
One was 88 grains of H4350 at 2790 fps, and the second was 93.0 grains of H4350 at 2948 fps.

Both worked very well, but I have settled on the slower load for this year's hunt.
Less wear and tear on the rifle and cases, and no noticeable difference in the field performance,
and both shoot about 1/2" groups at 100 yards - 0.489 for the slower one, 0.507 fps the faster one.

Most of our hunting is done at relatively close range, and the few rare shots I had taken at the longer ranges,
say 300 - 400+, I had no problem hitting them with the slower load.

My rifle is sighted to hit about 1.8 inches high at 100 yards. A setting I have found works fine for me.

I think for all practical purposes, our 375/404 and the 375 RUM are as close as two cartridges can get.
Any differences between them could only be due to the rifles involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well,
I looked at the reamer, and the only thing written on it is the neck diameter, 0.408".
I will try to pry this very important, ultra secret detail from Dwight next time I talk to him.
The 404 has been necked up to 458, as you can see here.



As done by my friend Roy Vincent.
He developed two wildcats. One to be a direct replacement for the 458 Winchester, and one is full length.
Loading data for both of these is available on our Reloading pages.

Saeed from earlier this year:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Seems the .375 Blaser is a close copy of Saeed's pet wildcat:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/8481022251

After comparating one cartidge case fired in Saeed's .375/404 Jeffery United Arab Emirates Express, which I have in possession,
using a protractor and my eyeball,
I hereby declare the shoulder angle to be 30 degrees, or junction cone angle of 60 degrees, until further clarified.




... And in a rifle that only Walter could love, and Saeed will love to hate:

Nothing demonstrates that old saying "often copied, never equalled" like this one

That 270-grain .375 Blaser Magnum load is about 2750 fps.
That is .375 H&H ballistics in a very ugly rifle,
with ammo not available in North America.

I surely do NEED a .375/404 Jeffery Saeed reamer or the actual specs. Please.

RIP,

The 375 RUM and 375/404 are essentially identical - even Saeed agrees. Thus, you're saying the 375 RUM is the "ideal" big game hunting round, and I don't disagree in an "ideal" world. But, it ain't "ideal". I'll stick with the 375 H&H AI, which has ~93% of the case capacity of either of the two above and will propel a 300 grainer easily to 2750 fps with low PSI. I've had 300 grainers in my 375 H&H AI up over 3000 fps, but TOO hot IMO. I've killed elephant and Cape buffalo with 300 gr. Failsafes loaded at 2875 fps - and all one shot kills. Why didn't I go with the 375 RUM - simple, I wanted a gun that would also shoot factory 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby ammo, if I lost my fancy ammo on the way to Africa. I've shot both 375 H&H and 375 Weatherby in the same gun and both shoot well.

That being said, I'm a gun nut like you, and I'm having a 416 RUM (UltraCAT) made on the same action - just change out the barrel. (I could spend my money on more frivolous things.) The magazine modification for the RUM still works well for the 375 H&H AI. Do I need it - NO! But, IMO the 400 gr. .416 bullets are better brush bucking bullets (greater momentum) than the 300 gr. .375 bullets. We all agree shot placement is paramount, but bullets deflect in heavy brush, and you don't always see the twigs. Deflected bullets can result in wouned, now dangerous, buffalo. Thus far, I've been lucky and all my buffalo and the one elephant where in the open, but that may not happen next time. Big heavy for caliber bullets deflect less, given the same twigs. Finally, this 416 RUM (UltraCAT) will shoot 350 gr. TTSX bullets (BC=.444) at over ~2800 fps - that's a long range gun for plains game. I think I can manage the recoil. When shooting at game, I don't notice the noise or kick, and I use light trigger pulls to minimize flinch effects.

But limited to one gun, I'd still go the the 375 H&H AI - not only will it's real World versatility "save" a hunt, but it's great for North America. I'm easily getting ~3100 fps with the new Barnes TTSX 250 grainer (BC=.424). That is a 600 yd plus elk, deer, or antelope gun!!



Regards, AIU.

AIU,
OK, whatever turns your crank.
BTW, brush bucking better with bigger calibers is a myth.
Nose shape is the only viable candidate for brush bucking,
i.e., FN solid.
You can do that with a .375/300-grain FN solid, as well as anything else.
But, some people cannot handle "the truth."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo

RIP, you're correct, you can't handle the truth! Sorry. Many PHs shooting in the bush in Africa will swear by the better brush bucking qualities of the big bores with big heavey for caliber bullets. Yes, all bullets deflect, but some less than others. Regards, AIU

Brush bucking with bigger calibers is never to be relied upon.
It is certainly not a good reason to give up all the other superiority of the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo

I'm in. Get the specs, get a reamer and then let's get AHR or McGowen to crank out a group buy on some full fledge clones with Lilja fluted stainless barrels, McMillan stocks, etc.

Why all the hoopla over the "lite" rifle in the Safari Battery. It's a plains game gun that can be used by women and children for the occasional DG.

I find the big bores to be of more interest, since were are being mature about it!

How about just get the .375 RUM, like AIU is saying? I love mine, I'm sure it kills em just as dead, and you can pick one up for about $700.00, plus buy factory ammo if you really want to.

Although Todd has a point, these "lite" rifles are kinda for girls

There is a place in this world for all of God's caliber creations.

Sounds like a nice cartridge but the name doesn't roll off the tongue.

How about something like:
.375/400 Dubai
.375/400 Camel Conker
.375/400 Brontosaurus (choose your own prehistoric animal)
.375/400 Short Magnum (just so everyone thinks there is a long version)
.375/400 Absolute Ultra Extended Magnum (just so everyone thinks there is a ultra-something short version)
9.5mm/10.72mmx73mm
or just .375 Saeed

I think the 404/375 Saeed it a good compromise. It can shoot 200 grain Impala bullets to heavy 380grain Rhinos. That a span of 180grain which is very good when we talk about .375Cal.
A good name would be the .375Nyati?.

Whatever Saeed calls it is what it is.
Specs must come from Saeed by way of Dwight.
A Saeed-type rifle conformation for the CZ 550 Magnum would be an ideal marketing gimmick, IF marketing is desired.

Maybe we are waiting on Dwight to send something to me?

Right now, I NEED a Rusty McGee build on a CZ,
which suits me just fine.
In fact, Rusty McGee's Hilltop Gunshop, at Falls of Rough, Kentucky would be the ideal home for a .375/404 Jeffery Saeed reamer(s) and "factory."

I will send Rusty the CZ 550 Magnum rifle.
Specify barrel, trigger, safety, stock (original or replacement), and magazine reinforcement.
Anachronistic barrel hardware attachments may also be specified (iron sights, barrel bands, secondary recoil lugs), but those are interesting me little these days.
I still cannot give up a sling, however.
When I crawl on hands and knees I like to sling the rifle under my chest/belly.
I do not like scooting on hands and butt with rifle in lap.

Sighting equipment you add yourself: Leupold 2.5-8X with reticle and rings of your choice.

Here is an example of some CZ work by Rusty,
on a .395 Tatanka and a .375/.338 Lapua Magnum (aka 9.5mm Tornado from Germany):

Dan Lilja stainless fluted .375 barrel:



An alternative sling attachment method:



A plain barrel and usual forend tip sling stud (.395 Tatanka)



McGee box reinforcement and fit in CZ Kevlar stock with full aluminum bedding block. This holds 5 down in the box with .375/404 Jeffery Saeed:



LaPour safety and Timney trigger:





Forend stud and filler screw on the CZ Kevlar stock, I did this one myself, Rusty could make it prettier:



Two rifles, two Leupold scopes:

Saeed's 26" barrel is 0.760" at muzzle diameter, fluted, stainless, Dan Lilja make.

His 23" Shilen barrel is 0.780" at muzzle diameter, stainless and fluted too, eh?

The No.6 sporter contour, fluted, stainless Dan Lilja barrel, that I have, ended up 25.75" long and is 0.765" diameter at the muzzle.

I think it is safe to say that Saeed used the No. 6 contour, and the fluting did lighten the barrel considerably.
Makes it cool faster too, eh?

Always thought Saeed's Lilja was finished at 25"? Hmm...

From 7-13-2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
One rifle has a Shilen barrel, 0.780" at the muzzle. It is 23 inches long.
The seond one has a Dan Lilja barrel, same contour, finished at 26 inches, 0.760" at the muzzle.
Both have 6 flutes.
One has a McMillan stock, and one has a MPI stock, with pillars added.

Baxter,
Maybe it is 25" now.
Remember when Walter tried to decorate Saeed's rifle by turning/cutting a circumferential groove near the end of the muzzle,
and painted that groove with Walter's own personal favorite shade of red fingernail polish?
Well, I guess that Saeed thought was a bit too gay silly, so he finished cutting it off at 25" and recrowned it.

Remember: Always blame Walter for any discrepancies or mishaps. That is his mission in life: Scape goat.



Now is the first rifle (shown above), with 23" barrel by Shilen, the loaner that gets beat up, is it the one with a McMillan stock?
If so, it had a painted finish instead of molded-in color.

I can believe that the second rifle was once upon a time in an MPI stock ... I don't think it is anymore ...

The standard Lilja contour No.6 with 6 flutes may have also been turned to lighten it some more.

Seems to me that in 2010, rifle No.2 (Lilja) was very light and handy, about 9 pounds with scope,
and had a tupperware stock that had the box and floorplate hanging below the bottom of the stock ...


I thought it looked and felt great.
My kind of rifle!
I can definitely imagine an MPI stock needing to be replaced.

And about that matte-stainless-appearing Dakota M76 African action:
Is that electroless nickel plating or did Dakota actually make a stainless M76 "special" for Saeed?

375/404 is a great cartridge but the 375 Weatherby was there in 1945 ...

Yes Chuck, that's a fact.
Just talking the cutting edge of perfection here,
sharpening it a bit.

Saeed's fireforming:



L to R:
.375/404 Jeffery Saeed
404 Jeffery
450 Vincent Long
.458 B&M

Looks like the Wiebe bottom metal for 500 Jeffery works better for the .375/404 Jeffery on a standard M98.
Rusty said he could mill out the current 3.5" box length to 3.6" inside.
There is still so much steel left over in the front of the box that no extra reinforcement will be needed.






The barrel will be stainless, the safety is stainless.
I love the stock to bottom metal fit here. Maybe I will leave it just like that.
Only question: Matte blue or matte nickel finish?

I don't know, RIP ...

I'm not sure the world is ready for such excellence and superiority in the hands of us "regular" folk.

It's clearly and obviously better than any other of the .375 ilk, neigh better than any dangerous game caliber larger or smaller ...

I just don't know if I'm ready for that, if I can handle all of that awesomeness ...