quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
it is the prerogative of the person paying for the hunt as to how the hunt is to be conducted.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
No, I am talking in realities. The person paying for the hunt sets the parameters.
That is really pretty simple to understand.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Trax, just ask any of the PH's that participate on this site, it is the person Paying for the hunt that has the final say.

Not the PH, not the Outfitter, not the booking agent, it is the person who is paying the bills that makes the decisions.

It really does not matter whether you agree with that or not. If PH's/Guides/outfitters intend on staying in business, they are going to provide the type hunt the Client wants.

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I believe there is at least one PH that allows the animal to decide how the hunt goes......and its all completely legal.are you going to dispute that?...

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I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows

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Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows

Jeff,

What is illegal in one area might not be in another.

I still believe one should use his own judgment, and if he wishes to participate in an activity that is illegal in his own country, but legal in the country where he is, that is entirely his personal choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

Jeff,
It was a book. For all we know those two (Ruark and Selby)drove around and chased shit with the hunting car all day. Shooting from the car in Africa is pretty common. Like Larry Shores and Saeed both have stated; situations differ, sometimes it just happens. I don't practice it, but I have taken several shots from the car in my years. Mostly an Impala or two for an opportunistic Leopard bait.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

Jeff,
It was a book. For all we know those two (Ruark and Selby)drove around and chased shit with the hunting car all day. Shooting from the car in Africa is pretty common. Like Larry Shores and Saeed both have stated; situations differ, sometimes it just happens. I don't practice it, but I have taken several shots from the car in my years. Mostly an Impala or two for an opportunistic Leopard bait.

Steve

You know, you're right. Since it was written down in a book it can't have any validity, and those libraries are taking up valuable space that could be used for parking lots.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You will be surprised on what some clients ask for.

I understand some PHs tend to bend the rules, and comply.

Others have their own standards, and refuse to change them.

I have heard of PHs terminating a hunt because of certain behaviors from the clients.

I have also heard of PH telling clients - who wanted to book future hunts - that they fully booked FOR LIFE!

Just imagine being a client and being told that.

PHs will do anything to please their clients, and that is how it should be.

But, the mind boggles at the behavior of some clients.

How about the client who specifically continues to shoot females, despite his PH pointing a ram for him to shoot?

The first time that happened, there was an argument.

The second time it happened, the client just grinned and flatly said he likes to shoot female!!??

The truck went straight to camp, and that was the end of the hunt.

How about a client who specifically wounded game, and after the shot, walks back to the truck, and tells the PHs "it is your job, go get it".

How about the client who walks up to an animal after he had shot it, and proceeds to kick the daylights out of it?

99% of us hunters are just the same.

We like to go and hunt in a normal way and enjoy ourselves.

That 1%, however, are nothing but queer creeps, who probably should never go on safari.

And so far their little secret has been relatively well kept.

But, now with all the social media and Internet, things are coming out where before we only heard them from word of mouth.

And we also have the so called PHs who never bat an eyelid for breaking the law.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

Jeff,
It was a book. For all we know those two (Ruark and Selby)drove around and chased shit with the hunting car all day. Shooting from the car in Africa is pretty common. Like Larry Shores and Saeed both have stated; situations differ, sometimes it just happens. I don't practice it, but I have taken several shots from the car in my years. Mostly an Impala or two for an opportunistic Leopard bait.

Steve

You know, you're right. Since it was written down in a book it can't have any validity, and those libraries are taking up valuable space that could be used for parking lots.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

Jeff,
It was a book. For all we know those two (Ruark and Selby)drove around and chased shit with the hunting car all day. Shooting from the car in Africa is pretty common. Like Larry Shores and Saeed both have stated; situations differ, sometimes it just happens. I don't practice it, but I have taken several shots from the car in my years. Mostly an Impala or two for an opportunistic Leopard bait.

Steve

You know, you're right. Since it was written down in a book it can't have any validity, and those libraries are taking up valuable space that could be used for parking lots.

You're the same condescending know-nothing you've always been. I suppose Capstick's adventures are the gospel as well?

I did say "for all we know" Go have a colonic and report back.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

Jeff,
It was a book. For all we know those two (Ruark and Selby)drove around and chased shit with the hunting car all day. Shooting from the car in Africa is pretty common. Like Larry Shores and Saeed both have stated; situations differ, sometimes it just happens. I don't practice it, but I have taken several shots from the car in my years. Mostly an Impala or two for an opportunistic Leopard bait.

Steve

You know, you're right. Since it was written down in a book it can't have any validity, and those libraries are taking up valuable space that could be used for parking lots.

You're the same condescending know-nothing you've always been. I suppose Capstick's adventures are the gospel as well?

I did say "for all we know" Go have a colonic and report back.

I have no idea what's true in Capstick's works and what's not, but sure as hell he could write rings around you drunk on his ass.

You see, it really doesn't matter if Ruark's stuff was the gospel truth, it was part of what formed my hunting ideal when I was a kid. I knew even then that the general practice of shooting up lion prides in Roosevelt couldn't be "right", but folks like Akeley and Ruark contributed to where I set my boundary lines.

And to be perfectly honest I don't actually give an inverted flying fuck what your pompous ass thinks.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Funny part is I never liked Ruark!

I was never able to finish his books at all.

Chapstick, on the other hand, I enjoyed reading very much.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Cecil's original post was thoughtful, sober, and entirely reasonable. It baffles me how insecure some on AR are when 'one of us' posits what they set for themselves as a personal standard. Guilt perhaps?

Cecil was speaking for himself and relaying a personal standard he has chosen to apply on hunts in the future. I admire his honesty, self-examination, and thoughtful resolve. Nowhere did he assert that his ethical choices should be imposed upon anyone else.

That said, let me then go one step further: In my opinion, if it's not Fair Chase, it's not ethical hunting for me or you. It may be shooting game for the pot, or culling, or in the case of the Green Mile video, animal cruelty with firearms - but it's not ethical hunting.

If we adhere to the mindless presumption that to judge other hunters gives succor to the antis, we condemn all of us to be judged by the public for not taking a stand against even the most odious hunting behavior. If you disagree with that, then you disagree with President Theodore Roosevelt, who helped to popularize the adoption of Fair Chase. Far from being doctrinaire or overly proscriptive, the concept of Fair Chase is nothing less than the application of ethics and principles in hunting, and is both simple and straight forward. Simply put, Fair Chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animals in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

No shrinking violet was Teddy; he had no qualms about labeling a hunter unethical. Indeed, he forewarned of the risk to hunting should we fail to self-regulate the sport. In recent times, a good example of an attempt at self-regulation would be when those opposed to canned hunting raise the issue of ethics, doing so out of respect for the tradition of Fair Chase and a desire to protect the sport from those who oppose all hunting. Canned hunts are the definition of a hunter employing an "improper advantage" in pursuit of animals that are not "free ranging".

As a community that loathes government interference with our sport – preferring instead self-regulation – I think it dangerous to simply wave as our banner, 'If it's legal it's okay'. How many of you watching the Green Mile video managed to mutter, "well it's legal", between spasms of retching? I say it's is up to each of us to voice our objections when we witness hunting behavior that violates even the most elastic of ethical standards as embodied in Fair Chase.

So long as we recognize that there are limits to the laissez faire ideal of 'to each his own' when it comes to hunting, and accept that the principles of Fair Chase are both reasonable and in our self-interest, we help to protect ourselves, our sport, as well as the animals we hunt.

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So may we assume that all of you with the tender sensibilities travel to africa either by sailing ship or rowboat, then walk inland from the coast?If you won't shoot from a truck, you surely can't justify flying in an airplane to get at the poor beasty.Wouldn't want to take any advantage of the animals now , would we

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
It's been a while since I read my Ruark, but the two things that are most memorable, to me, was the prominence of the drinking (it was ubiquitous), and the number of times Selby or Ruark would spot game, get out and "wait for the car to go away" before even starting a stalk.

For me, not applicable to anyone else, a vehicle is for transportation to the hunting area, not an integral part of the hunt itself.

Somebody earlier in the thread (which I'm too lazy to go hunt up) brought up shooting from a boat. In that case, as in shooting from a vehicle, I've always been guided by what the Law in Tennessee requires/allows: It is illegal (and therefore immoral and unethical) to shoot from a boat under power.

And in my opinion any PH who would allow a client to shoot from a vehicle would probably also drink his sister's used bath water.

Jeff,
It was a book. For all we know those two (Ruark and Selby)drove around and chased shit with the hunting car all day. Shooting from the car in Africa is pretty common. Like Larry Shores and Saeed both have stated; situations differ, sometimes it just happens. I don't practice it, but I have taken several shots from the car in my years. Mostly an Impala or two for an opportunistic Leopard bait.

Steve

You know, you're right. Since it was written down in a book it can't have any validity, and those libraries are taking up valuable space that could be used for parking lots.

You're the same condescending know-nothing you've always been. I suppose Capstick's adventures are the gospel as well?

I did say "for all we know" Go have a colonic and report back.

I have no idea what's true in Capstick's works and what's not, but sure as hell he could write rings around you drunk on his ass.

You see, it really doesn't matter if Ruark's stuff was the gospel truth, it was part of what formed my hunting ideal when I was a kid. I knew even then that the general practice of shooting up lion prides in Roosevelt couldn't be "right", but folks like Akeley and Ruark contributed to where I set my boundary lines.

And to be perfectly honest I don't actually give an inverted flying fuck what your pompous ass thinks.

If my pompous ass remembers correctly, Ruark was "dumped" out of a moving cruiser while getting close enough to whack one? The lion watched the truck and Ruark dumped a tabby or two?

And...have you even read any of my work? Perhaps I could be your new mentor if you did.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
So may we assume that all of you with the tender sensibilities travel to africa either by sailing ship or rowboat, then walk inland from the coast?

If you won't shoot from a truck, you surely can't justify flying in an airplane to get at the poor beasty.

Wouldn't want to take any advantage of the animals now , would we

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
It is considered acceptable to shoot from a palanquin. (See Sean, try something a little different to make the point.)

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Maybe in the future I will just use a rock instead of my rifle as well.
I should have known some dumb dick would stoop to this.