I was watching the boob tube last night and that guy that hunts with a muzzle loader was on a Leopard hunt. He shot it out of the tree and it ran off..He apparantly sent the PH after it and the PH found it and called him to come and get his Leopard..It didn't sit very well with me, if your going to hunt with primative weapons or any weapon for that matter, its your job to at least help clean up your mess...

I realize this is argueable and some PH would rather you let them handle it, but thats just no my style, I would quit hunting if that was the case...

On my leopard, there wasn't any discussion. As soon as we realized we had a wounded one on our hands we just picked up our guns and started following the blood.

I was raised that if you make a mess, you clean it up.

The leopard was dead as a hammer when we found him, BTW

yes and no - put yourself in the ph's shoes. would you want this guy who mess up with you or would you rather have your tracker etc that you kno be by your side. think you'll get a 50/50 answer on that

i think as the client you have a responsibility to the PH and his staff to at least make an effort to fix your mistakes. i would like to think that when i hunt DG someday i will be up to the task at hand and have the courage to deal with whatever mr. murphy sends my way.
I dont think i would deal very well with putting someone else at risk to fix my f-up while im in safety.

Does anyone know the hunter? Was it Jim Shockey? I would like to look for it and see if I can catch it for myself on the tube.

Have not hunted African DG, but have hunted bears, boars, and cats in other places. I see it as my responsibility to clean up the mess unless told in no uncertain terms not to. And then I might argue.

Yes it was Jim Shockey.

I understand that anyone can wound an animal, but if you do its your responsibility to follow up unless the PH says NO, in which case I assure you that he does not have any faith in you...If he does then he will say lets go get it..

Yes it was Jim Shockey. I wondered the same thing, why didn't he go after it. He made a good hit but looked concerned. Knowing Jim, I doubt it was his choice to stay behind.

What's the point of hunting dangerous game if it's not dangerous, and you sit in the Cruiser?

There are alot worse ways of going than getting stepped on by an elephant.

But there are alot of guys I wouldn't want behind me with a rifle either!

I can understand anyone wanting to desperately clean up a mess he's made but with African DG the best policy might be to go by the PH's recommendation. If he wants to handle it himself he probably thinks it is safer for everyone concerned if the client does not go along. Swallowing your ego may be hard but it may save a life.

Mark

I would hate to have a situation where I did not do my part. However, once he game is wounded and in the bush I would definately do as the pro wants to do. I would gladly go along to right my wrong -- but if the pro wants to handle it on his own. Well, that's what you are paying him for and that is why the game departments require a pro. He got enough problems without trying to keep me from getting creamed!

This has all the necessary elements to be sufficiently combustible...

Brian

It doesn't sound like Shockey's style of hunting.

I agree that it is the client's responsibility to help clean up the mess. If the PH told me to stay put I would definitely feel that I had committed an unpardonable.

By the same token, it is not appropriate for me to put the staff at greater risk if I had proven myself to be an additional risk element. Would feel terrible about someone getting hurt because I was a jerk.

I have shot and wounded DG, and then had to follow them up and kill them. That kind of thing happens. Wish it didn't, but it does.

I have also fatally wounded them, only to see them run off into thick stuff.

Then, you think they're dead, but you don't know for sure whether they may be alive and intent on some payback. So you have to do the same kind of follow up.

In each of those cases, I was lucky enough to be hunting with an excellent PH, and we did the follow up together, without the slightest suggestion on the PH's part that he would or should go it alone.

Needless to say, I would have objected pretty strongly had such a suggestion been made.

Before we get inro a real donnibrook on this isue, let me say it is the PH's call! What ever he says is the way it will go!

Like everyone else I'd rather go into the weeds by myself, than to allow someone else to clean up my mess, and maybe get hurt in the process, but when all is said and done, it "IS" the PH's call, and must be abided by! However, as some one said above I'm going to argue, or if it comes to it, BEG to go, and promise not to shoot the PH!

I do not know Mr Shockey, however; I did meet him several years ago with a mutual friend and in the brief time we spoke I came to the conclusion that the best part about him was undoubtedly his wife......

Anyway it is possible that the PH did not want him to follow up the Leopard because of one, or a combination of the following??

He was aware of Mr Shockeys lethargic, monotone speaking mannerism and was concerned that he would not be able to yell "watch out!" quick enogh?
Or
He had just seen Star Wars with his kids and realized that there was a marked resembalance between Mr Shockey and Chewbacca, and ole Chewey was not very agile on his feet which can be fairly important in a Leopard fight........

More seriously I feel like the PH has the say on what happens in this situation, he is the professional, but I would have a hard time causing someone else to have to face serious injury because of something I did. I would also like to think that the PH would feel I was competent enough to be benneficial, rather than a danger in this situation.

I shot my first buff too high and too far back and went along on the follow up. The end was anti-climax I'm happy to say.

Two weeks ago on a friend's leopard hunt I was paid the highest hunting complement I have ever received by a PH who asked me, in advance, to bring along my double in case there was a follow up.

However, if a PH asked me to stay behind I would. I would be terribly dissiponted but I would do it. It IS a matter of life and death and the judgement of the PH should be abided by.

Brett

I don't see it as a donnybrooke, but it was on national television and therefore its up for any comments that come along...I didn't particularly like what I saw and caught me by surprise..It was so apparant and when it happened he looked like he had fear written on his face, but I wouldn't swear to that. Fear or not these are the things you make yourself do. Prior to the kill he went to great length to express why he hunts with a muzzle loader and bow because it was just too easy with conventional firearms, well I guess he changed his mind when the s--t hit the fan...

I would never hunt with a PH that didn't expect me to follow up a kill or wounded animal with him and I never have hunted with such a fellow...

By the same token I have seen PHs that I would not care to follow up dangerous game with. Just because someone is a PH does not mean they are infalible, some are and some arn't, if that were the case then Johan Calitz would be in much better shape today than he is as a French PHs scotted out from him on the buffalo taht nearly killed him..and I have seen PHs that couldn't shoot for s---t...

The bottom line is a hunter should clean up his own mess IMO but he deserves the best help he can get to get it done, it works both ways.

I have seen very few hunters from the USA that were incompetant shots, most are excellent shots, most are gun nuts, and yes their have been a few exceptions, and everyone that has wounded an animal has assisted in his recovery to date..I have seen a lot of Europeans that couldn't shoot, why that is I don't know unless they just have too many gun laws and can't get out and practice or its just more hassle than they can deal with..????????

Maybe after hunting with this guy he felt better that he should do it alone and not get him or his client hurt. I bet it is like a lot of things where it is just best left to the professional.

I had this conversation with a PH and he insisted on follow ups for leopard alone. He would take the client with him on other dangerous game but not leopard. Things happen too fast was his opinion.
Perhaps the muzzle loader was a consideration. Seeing an in bound leopard through a cloud of white smoke might be more distracting than the PH wanted not to mention reload time. It would be difficult to think of a less appropriate weapon for close quarter encounters with a leopard than a muzzle loader.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I had this conversation with a PH and he insisted on follow ups for leopard alone. He would take the client with him on other dangerous game but not leopard. Things happen too fast was his opinion.
Perhaps the muzzle loader was a consideration. Seeing an in bound leopard through a cloud of white smoke might be more distracting than the PH wanted not to mention reload time. It would be difficult to think of a less appropriate weapon for close quarter encounters with a leopard than a muzzle loader.

Good points, particuliarly regarding the muzzleloader, but I would be very unhappy to not know beforehand if the PH didn't allow clients on the follow-up(using smokeless), because I would have found a different PH that did!

I am afriad this sort of thing happens quite a lot, despite some "hunters" coming back home and claiming all the brave things they have done!

But, in my book, you fire a shot at an nimal, then it becomes YOUR responsibility to finihs him off.

Of course, the PH is there o help if need be. But I don't consider his job chasing my wounded animals.

Dangerous or otherwise.

Any dope who wounds a leopard with a muzzle loader ought to have to follow it up with a baseball bat. There is no reason for a PH and the trackers to be put unnecessarily at risk due to a client who is stupid or inept.

Shockey apparently has a point to prove to his TV audience...that he can take any game alive with a muzzle loader. I saw the episode and I don't see the logic in that. He did look worried.

Did he have that worried look while sitting in the Cruiser?

Naw, he was sitting at the blind. I think the look was more of a 'I can't believe he didn't drop stone dead' look.

It was visible though that when the cat hit the ground he was very hard hit. His run was more like a slow jog compared to being shot out of a canon.

last night's SciFi movie was "Never Cry Werewolf", and I think they used our TV personality to model their "big-game hunter"--long-hair, cowboy hat, and bandana around neck.
Wasn't much of a movie.

If I had wounded my leopard last year, there would have been NO WAY that I would have not gone with the PH on the follow-up, and I told him so when the subject came up. I told him that he would have to fight me first and tie me up. I said it with a smile on my face, and not in an arrogant way, but he knew that I meant it.
No way would my PH get shredded while I waited in the car

As mrlexma said above, sometimes you've fatally wounded it, but must follow up to determine did you or didn't you. This is what happened to me. I shot and the leopard dropped out of the tree and ran off. I felt it was hit solidly. The ph called for the truck and rest of the team, and he and I moved quickly to the tree to search for sign. By the time we were there, the truck was arriving. Everyone scoured the ground for blood sign.

Backing off and looking at the limb and the bait, I felt the leopard had dropped at a particular point. Looking there I found blood. Immediately, the drill changed. My adult son and I were pushed to the back away from the area into which the leopard had disappeared and the truck was called forward and we mounted up.

Our tracker, the ph, my son and I all had our sector of responsibility has we pushed forward into the edge of the formidable draw in which the cat had sought refuge. The tension was palpable as we very carefully moved forward. When we found the leopard about five yards into the draw on my side of the truck, the break in the tension was incredible. The game scout in the passenger seat and spotted him stone dead approximately 35 yards from where he'd dropped to the ground.

Although my son and I were players in the drama that had ensued, it was very clear from the moment that blood was found, that the ph was in charge, and that the objective was to take the leopard on our terms to the greatest extent possible and without getting any clients scratched up or bitten.

I certainly did not feel sufficiently qualified or macho that I was refusing any help in "sorting out" the leopard. It felt right to be a part of the team. On the other hand, I would not have wanted to be left in the truck while everyone went down into the draw on foot.

I have read many stories about ph's calling additional ph's to assist them in tracking and dealing with wound dangerous game. Clearly they did not feel the need to go it alone, and they are much more qualified than a client. Kudude

Rarely post in this area. Never hunted africa. Just thinking out loud here. Your trailing a pissed off wounded kitty. Would a Ph really want someone with a muzzleloader on the follow up. Think about it. One more person and only one more shot. Plus if your in thick brush visability is poor. Do you want someone touching off a muzzleloader and reducing visability even more with a cloud of smoke. The cat could be on your ass before the smoke cleared if the shot did not anchor the cat. I don't care for any of the tv hunters. I think in this case the Ph just wanted this finished and did not give shockey a say in the matter. I am sure shockey would of went after the cat if the Ph would of let him. You know he was thinking I could be the first person to shot a chargeing leopard with a muzzleloader

quote:

Posted 13 May 2008 01:27 Hide Post
I would hate to have a situation where I did not do my part. However, once he game is wounded and in the bush I would definately do as the pro wants to do. I would gladly go along to right my wrong -- but if the pro wants to handle it on his own. Well, that's what you are paying him for

Many very good points were brought up in the discussion. Points about the feelings of the client about wounding and wanting to even fight the PH for the right to go anlong on the follow-up. Good! Points about the PH's safety, and him having another body to worry about. Good! But for all game, including DG like this post is about, that has been wounded IMHO there is only one overriding consideration: The quickest possible final dispatching of the wounded animal. While it is true that the client pays for the hunt and it is the client's hunt, and the PH's responsibility to get the client into a position where the client can, with very good prospects of making it a one shot near instant kill, get a shot at the animal, once wounded good ethics dictate that the consideration of the suffering of the wounded animal overrides all other considerations. If the PH feels that his city boy client with very noisy walking style will hamper him on a follow-up, then he "tells" the client to stay in the Cruiser! If the PH feels that the client may actually be of more help than hinderance, then he "instructs" the client to join in the follow-up. Only if the PH really feels its 50:50 if the client will help or hinder may he start considering things like the feelings or safety of the client, or himself, in his decision to tell the client to come along or stay in the Cruiser.

Just my 2c added.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
No way would my PH get shredded while I waited in the car

Most of the PHs that I have talked to on this subject seems to be more concerned about a bullet hole in their body than being shredded by the Chui.

Let the PH decide, if he asks you to wait in the car, it could be the best for all concerned.

Where the client is armed with a bow, .45/70, muzzleloader or whatever, and chooses NOT to help in the follow-up (rather than is told not to), it is a classic stunt hunt.

We hear how a bow or BP muzzleloader or a crap lever action .45/70 is fine for hunting dangerous game, UNTIL THINGS GET SERIOUS.

I can't help but agree with Ray. Mr. Shockey has to hunt with TC muzzle loaders, or he won't have a show! But, I feel he gives the product a bad rap when he hunts DG with it. I also watched one of his programs when he wounded a Cape Buffalo with his TC muzzle loader, and followed it up in back of a safari car with a .375 H&H Magnum! The more I watch these shows the least I care for them. I believe most of us feel this way.

Always ask your PH of his opinion. Every case will be different, depending on your ability as well as the situation at hand. The least you can do is offer your assistance, I don't think it is a good idea to insist on participating in the follow up. I also don't agree with refusing to follow up when asked to. Remember the entire safari is the responsibility of the PH, if something goes wrong, the PH will have to explain. Sometimes he will feel safer going in without you - respect this.

Right on ticky, basxically it is the HUNTERS responsibility to properly place that first shot, if he or she f*cks it up then it is the PH's call regarding the fixing of the mess. If he says stay in the truck then plant your ass there and pray. Oh I am a macho man and I can take care of my own mess - hey your mistake started the whole thing, eh.

I don't know Jim Shockey personally but am sure that fear was not the reason for not taking part in the following up of the leopard. He was steadfast with his ML in the face of a hippo charge and gets up close and personal with grizzlies. When a scrap breaks out the grizzly has damn few equals and no superiors IMO. As you know a camera crew along with a couple of trackers, a game scout, and a ph along with the client would resemble a medicine show more than a serious follow up. I would be glad to hunt with Jim, he seems to move fast enuf when necessary and he talks fast enuf to have won the affection of a beautiful and charming woman who could have exercised other options.

quote:

Originally posted by Ahmed Sultan:

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
No way would my PH get shredded while I waited in the car

Most of the PHs that I have talked to on this subject seems to be more concerned about a bullet hole in their body than being shredded by the Chui.

Indeed this is true.

I didn't see the show, but I would like to know if it was necessary for the PH to use a followup shot? If not and the animal was dead... it doesn't change the fact that he didn't followup himself, but it does change the fact that he may not have made a bad shot,,, well shot animals have a tendancy to get to the thick stuff and many in record time. I would not want to have a muzzle loader next to me following up a dangerous animal knowing that if he shoots,,,, the smoke will obscure my vision and interfere with me saving my bacon from a charge. However,,,, the PH knew he was shooting a muzzle loader and knew what he signed on for. Give Jim a decent rifle and drag him along for the followup if he wants to go but leave the TC in the truck.