juxtaposition exemplified

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter:
Yeh, you're right. All animals seem to think about is eating, sleeping, taking a dump and screwing. Hey, wait a minute..........

quote:

Originally posted by Steve "Shakari" Robinson:
At the risk of being philosophical. - I certainly don't agree with anthromorphising any species, but I do believe we owe it to whatever species we hunt to hunt them correctly, ethically and responsibly. I believe this is especially important with elephants. Not only because of their obvious intelligence but also because of their high public profile with the non hunting public. To do otherwise will in the long run, cause the sport we all enjoy to be lost..... either to us or to those who come after us.

all of you have impressed me in this forum...you're all very obviously thinking about more than eating, sleeping,....
i found this link interesting..especially the part about listening with the feet...communication
Thank you for providing such great information and for sparking my desire to learn more about elephants....

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
One could equally argue that if your argument is the case (and I'm not suggesting it isn't) that it's therefore our responsibility to manage that wildlife responsibly.........

There's also nothing there that says human kind is the only life form to posess intelligence....

I think this sums it up. But it still leaves us the arguement over whether cows should be hunted. Or even Bulls, since the question becomes "What is good management?" again.

FWIW, I spent some time as an athiest, but found my self thinking, "God help me!" whenever the s--t hit the fan and figured I might as well fess up and stop being a hypocrite.

JPK

I personally believe that Ron Thompson got it right in his books. It's perfectly acceptable to sport hunt the bulls, (particularly the old bulls that are past breeding age) but not the cows and calves. That should be left to the professional culling teams who should take out entire family units together.

At the risk of getting political, I'd also guess that CITES and a few other bodies, such as USF&WS perhaps? - might well be looking at the Elephant management policies of various African countries.........

It's nice to hear that there are people who believe that animals are intelligent and care for their future.Good post Texas!

I took cow elephants off quota in Zimbabwe in 1992. In 1996 I put tuskless elephants of either sex onto open quota.

Using sport hunting to control genetics is difficult and using hunting to manage an area is even more difficult, but can be done- because Elephants are more inteligent than most presidents

In the Doma safari area we used sport hunters to keep elephant herds out of the Brachystegia forest. One cow a month and it worked well - the forest began recovering. After three years of this, the cow herds stopped going anywhere near the forest.

Elephants also posses alot more grey matter between their ears than any five men, and at least 1/3 of that brain is given over to memory and personality etc. Hit that forward bit only and the ele survives but often with a personality change.

Personality change? Yup- Every parks station has it's tame elephants, particularly in the non hunting national parks. as any pro guide about the regulars, and they will tell you which one is a grouch, which one has a mean sense of humor, which ones are basically thick etc.

In general, I like elephants alot more than people, but they are not the gentle Giants that some would portray them as either!

There's one way to tell the difference between elephants and humans.

Q: What's the difference between a gathering of elephants and a session of the US Congress?

A: When elephants gather, things don't get worse.

Boy Indy, this could be a whole 'nuther thread!
Peter.

Steve, I can't help but to think that if Botswana opened up [inexpensive] cow hunts, you'd be one of the first in line to sell them (and after seeing the destruction in the Caprivi/Chobe area, I think they should, which is something Thompson also suggests).

For the sake of the elephant – and because it is just plain fun - we need more hunting elephant opportunities, not less. Totally shut down the tuskless/cow/PAC/meat rations elephant hunting and it is just another nail in the coffin of what is left of the hunting industry in Zim (which of course is what some want). Pretty soon then the only elephant hunts will be $50K+ gentleman hunts for a select few (again, not a bad scenario for those selling such hunts).

Meanwhile, their habitat will continue to be slashed/burned, and they will be quietly poached by the tens of thousands, and nobody will bat an eye. This is the much bigger picture, IMHO. And yes, I too love the elephants.

Bill,

They already do..... and if you check the special offers page of my website, you'll find the price - and the fact that the hunt is for bulls ONLY. That isn't a stipulation of the Game Dept, all the permit says is Elephant and the sex isn't stipulated...... the rule is mine and those that don't like it, don't have to book it. - You will NEVER see me offer a cow Elephant hunt..... nor will you ever see me allow any client of mine to take a cow or calf except in a life threatening situation.

Actually I think you'll find that Ron suggests hunting in the Caprivi/Chobe area, he doesn't suggest sport hunting cows there or anywhere else. I had a long conversation with him a few weeks ago and he's as adamant as I am that sport hunting of cows and calves should never be permitted.

I don't agree with you about the price of hunting them either..... we sell Elephant bull hunts for US$10K each in Botswana and are holding that price for 2008 as well (and they're selling like hot cakes!).......That's cheaper than most Buff hunts in most safe African countries. - if they get much cheaper, we won't have any left.

As to the poaching, perhaps hunters and non hunters should all be prepared to put our hands in our pockets and finance a proper anti poaching operation on a long term and Africa wide basis?

Well I guess I know who not to book with.

There wouldn't be any point in you trying to book with us anyway..... we'd always be fully booked for the foreseeable future.........

Perhaps someone can enlighten me but I have not heard a legitimate biological reason for not hunting cow elephants. The idea of only taking out entire cow herds was designed for culling elephants in Zimbabwe's National Parks. The reason for it was given as, if you only took out one or two cows from a herd the remaining portion of the herd would spread their fear to other herds making it difficult for tourists to see elephants in the NP. By taking out a whole herd, peace is maintained amongst the surviving herds. That surely doesn't pertain to herds in safari areas or on communal lands where elephants are causing severe economic damage to local tribesman that depend on the meager crops they grow to feed their families. In fact putting fear into as many herds as possible in communal lands should be the goal of elephant management on tribal lands. In fact a couple of very experienced elephant control officers have recommended shooting up cow herds in areas where crop damage occurs even if the cows themselves are not raiding crops. The theory is that the raiding bulls are there because of the proximity of the cow herds. In a couple of well documented cases shooting up cow herds did more to move elephants from the agricultural lands than shooting only crop raiding bulls. We had the same type pf protectionist attitude in the US about shooting doe deer or cow elk. We now know that attitude is now ingrained in some hunters to the detriment of sound biological management.


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
There wouldn't be any point in you trying to book with us anyway..... we'd always be fully booked for the foreseeable future.........

Then maybe you should close down your web site and save some money!

465H&H

I have to comment to Steve that saying those of us are "fools" for hunting elephant cows is rather mean and really, just your Animal Planet opinion. Yeah, we are all entitled to an opinion, I know that, but the name calling part is unnecessary since it is YOUR opinion.

Did you know my chickens have a matriarch hen. It's the way of the world. Herds of animals all have matriarchs.

Being no expert, I have done only one elephant hunt and it was specific for a tuskless cow. One that had no calf.

The herd I hunted had two tuskless cows and one of them had a dependent calf. We were VERY careful to ensure a clean kill and cause as little disruption as possible and target the 'right' cow. That being the one with out a calf.

We found and triple checked our cow before even moving in. When I killed her she was on the fringe of the herd and pretty much only one other cow noticed the noise from the shot. My cow definitely saw me and I have no doubt had I not shot her when I did she was going to come for some stomp action.

One other cow briefly investigated after the shot and quickly went back to foraging with the rest of the herd. We waited for nearly an hour for the herd to move off as they fed into the near barren brush. Hardly a ripple in the space/time continuum!

Maybe it doesn't always happen that way but the herd I killed my cow from seemed rather content and did not know the difference or appear to miss their sister. I certanly to this day do not consider myself a fool for killing a tuskless cow elephant. I hope to have the opportunity to do so again.

The very next day my party ran into another cow and calf herd, this one had a tuskless matriarch and had there been another license available I would have killed her on the spot as well. She stalked us relentlessly and goaded her group into attacking and running us over a cliff a couple times for no reason.

I see no reason why if I had killed her the herd would not have been able to carry on. They would and we all know it.

Yep, that was an exciting hunt!

Herd management must include occasional culling of some females, and there should be no problem with enjoying that hunt as much as that for a bull. Ann's elephant demonstrates this perfectly. In some other situations, it seems to me it would be wise to cull entire family groups. Certainly there could be many potential problems with taking out the herd Matriarch, much of whose acquired knowledge, particuliarly of places, she is able to share with the others only by demonstration. Steve is able to adopt whatever policy he deems wise, and he is free to change his mind (assuming Free Will exists ), and obviously any policy of his will be well thought out.

My earlier failed attempts to draw out any rational reason to oppose the hunting of cows left me with little choice but to conclude it's more of an ethical "touchy-feely" issue than a biological or ecological issue. Nothing wrong with that if that's what it is, we shouldn't try to tell each other how to feel. For awhile it looked like the pitch was "we can't shoot the cows because they're smart" of course then the same case could be made with bulls. I think it's fair to say a good case has been made that elephants have no monopoly on complex behavior, just size.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Cows and calves have extremely close ties and if you shoot one, you seriously damage the social structure of the family unit....... you might like to read the books I mentioned and if they interest you, I'll be happy to let you have a longer reading list...... the more you know about these animals, the more you'll respect them and the more you learn about them the more you'll want to know. As well as the books I mentioned, you might also like to read the Ron Thomson books.

(IMO) Any fool can shoot an Elephant - and many fools do, (esp cows calves and adolescents ) but if you have an understanding of the species, when you do hunt them, you'll appreciate it a whole lot more......... AND you'll hunt the right animal.

Well said, Shakari

I also agree with Steve. I have no desire to shoot a cow elephant, or any big game female. With the exception of a white-tail doe that I may take for meat. If another hunter feels different so be it. Since his thoughts are the same as mine I would be interested in hunting with him.

I do like hunting cow elephants, so my opinions are biased, but talk like having an "intelligent management plan" always reminds me of other "intelligent management plans" like the tsetse fly eradication programs.

Before colonialization there wasn't much in the way of management, and without the British and others management practices set forth I doubt there would be many elephant left in Africa.

How is it you can control elephant damage to the ecosystem by only killing bulls? Well, if that doesn't work, you have to whack whole herds? And in the next breath, how can you justify whacking whole herds but proclaim that genetic diversity is needed? Well, I guess the genetic diversity of that whole herd has been eliminated from the gene pool!

Whether you whack some cow or your grandmaother, life goes on.

I suspect that it is more a factor of someone's ego, that they think they have the ultimate intelligence to tell everyone else how it should be done! Especially if they can get someone else to pay for it.

I wonder if all the natives that killed millions of elephants since the dawn of mankind ever worried whether their pit traps killed only bulls!

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
Octupus can learn to unscrew a bottle cap in order to get to food,

One octo will learn itself after lots of experimenting and finally figure out how to get the top unscrewed, but the REALLY impressive part of it is that if you put another octo into an adjacent tank who has not seen how the cap works, it will soon *watch* the one who knows how, and copy it. I forget the show I saw on it, but it was incredible, and repeatable. Oh, and octopus are delicious, and fun to catch.

I have been reluctant to discuss this issue on here, due the heat I think it will generate.

But here goes, and this is my perspective from being both a hunter and a neurosurgeon.

Elephants have large, developed frontal lobes, similar (but not exactly like) ours.
Their brain size is similar (though slightly smaller) to ours.
As a comparison, dolphins and other cetaceans have large frontal lobes, but with lower cell density than ours (and lower than elephants)...probably because the frontal lobes are part of their echolocation abilities.

I can't shoot elephants because I believe they are sentient....self aware with a meaningful social structure. I suspect that they are probably the animals with the highest IQ's next to man...including the great apes.

That doesn't mean that they are friendly....you can't go up and pet certain tribemembers in the Amazon for example, and yet they pocess sentience too.
I believe elephant control is important, including cropping. The carrying habitat for them is not infinite, and needs help from us to sustain them now.

But, I'm not going to shoot one if I don't have to, and I empathize with their disdain for us.

Garrett

If it were possible to compare elephants to humans on a scale which included intelligence, courage, loyalty, prudence, temperance, and justice--the average elephant might score higher than the average human.

That said, man must still manage elephant numbers for their own good. That includes killing. The money for game conservation, land acquisition, and protective services has to come from somewhere, and professionally-guided Sportsman hunters seems to me to be one of the best answers.

Elephants (and most large mammals) can also be guilty of the "seven deadly sins" IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:I don't agree with you about the price of hunting them either..... we sell Elephant bull hunts for US$10K each in Botswana and are holding that price for 2008 as well (and they're selling like hot cakes!).

Steve, they are PAC hunts and you are selling them for $10K (yes a good price) but Zim is selling them for $8500. Again, remove Zim from the scene and watch the prices elsewhere go up, and not just for elephant. And I believe this theme is a "hidden" motivation behind many of your posts over the years, which is what I have a problem with.

I agree w/the majority of opinions held by Thompson, but they are just that, abeit well researched and justified. Does he not also support the commercialization of elephants for meat as a means of controlling the population? Sounds good on paper, but as with his opinion on non-hunting of the cows, a bit idealistic, in my opinion. But his shot placement guide is dead-on!

And I'd suggest that you not get too big of a head Steve.

Eyedoc,
Your post gave me a much better opinnion of you than I previously had. May the good Lord take a lik'en to you and yours, may your creeks run full, and may the grass grow in you pastures and may everone you know need glasses!

quote:

Originally posted by N. Garrett:
. . . I'm not going to shoot one if I don't have to, and I empathize with their disdain for us.

Elephants disdain us?

dis·dain (dÄ­s-dÄn')

tr.v., -dained, -dain·ing, -dains
1. To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise. See synonyms at despise.
2. To consider or reject as beneath oneself.

n.
A feeling or show of contempt and aloofness; scorn.


So that's why we've been mock charged so many times.

I really don't see intelligence as being a test for whether or not I consider a species or female members of that species "unhuntable".

I was raised on a farm and our milk cows were nothing short of full blown pets. Yet I never shed a tear or gave them special consideration when they got too old to produce.

We also raised other animals as pets but when it came time to kill and eat them or sell them for someone else to do the same we never gave it a second thought.

You start treading on very dangerous ground when you start separating animals by intelligence or whether or not they're females. You play right into the hands of the PETA types and they'll use your weakness (yes I think it's a weakness) against you.

I let the laws made by lawmakers as recommended by game managers etal. decide what is huntable game and I don't agonize over whether or not it's humane or proper to hunt any species or whether or not females of any species should be hunted.

They're animals and regardless of intelligence they're still animals.

I try to make sure my hunts end in humane kills but I KNOW that I'm causing pain, suffering, and death to creatures that might have feelings but guess what!?! I don't lose any sleep over it.

It's all part of life and if you're squeamish about it you should probably sell your guns and buy cameras because your doubt and weakness will consume you and if you're a PH might cost someone their life.

I guess I'm just old school but the only creatures that I don't consider huntable are those that the laws says aren't huntable. Period. Let somebody else struggle with the moral considerations and management objectives.

I'm not calling anyone wrong but I also am entitled to my opinions and I agree with 500 Grains. I now know at least one person I WOULDN'T hunt with under any circumstances. Ever!

$bob$

LDHunter/Bob:

Well said.

Well I will throw in my 2 cents here as well. I am a veterinarian. In fact I am a board certified large animal surgeon. I was raised on a cattle ranch in west Texas. I have never had a day in my life that there was not an animal in it, most of the time large mammals. My Jack Russel/Rat terrier sleeps with me every night. I truly love animals of all kinds. I care for them, understnad them, study them, and am scientifically and medically educated about them. I have read the elephant books talked about above.

With all that said, I am an avid hunter. In fact I am going to hunt a tuskless cow elephant this fall. I can see no scientific reasons to not use sport hunting (especially when done proficiently) to control elephant numbers. As hunters, I do believe we have a responsibility to be proficient killers. And lets face it, the money that it generates does more to preserve the species than anything else that can be done.

Having battled PETA types in domestic animal issues, I can assure you that they will use some of the above mentioned thoughts against us. And stating that we should not hunt elephant cows due to their social and intellectual status is a dangerous place to go for hunters.

Well. What the hell! I know who I WILL hunt with, given the opportunity.!
"...we never gave it a second thought...". I have never shot an animal without a tinge of regret while standing over it. I think that is what makes me human, not that it makes me a candidate for PETA membership, which, from what I understand here, is the spawn of Satan. I see nothing wrong with the ethical treatment of animals. If I saw my neighbor stabbing his dog to death or garrotting it, rest assured that I will, after a warning, send his sorry ass to hell! And, it might even be with my 45/70!
Peter.

quote:

PETA membership, which, from what I understand here, is the spawn of Satan.

Make NO MISTAKE about it, PETA IS the spawn of Satan!!!

Some pathetic posts in this thread......

bwanamich:"Some pathetic posts in this thread......"

But there are a lot of good ones also! When discussing matters one gets all sorts of comments but the main point is that there is a discussion which in the best of cases will lead to increased thinking (critical I hope) on the matter.

I respect shakari´s opnions even if I don´t agree with them. His view is based on experience and mine is based on theoretical knowledge.

Both kinds are needed.

What one doesn´t need in a discussion on conservation issues is the "bleeding heart"/PETA/SPCA fraction ie "opinions" based on emotion and totally lacking in knowledge of the issue.

Ignorance and emotion are we least of all need.

Bwanamich,

Your views on elephant intelligence?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
There wouldn't be any point in you trying to book with us anyway..... we'd always be fully booked for the foreseeable future.........

Then maybe you should close down your web site and save some money!

465H&H

Perhaps he should require prospective clients to fill out a questionnaire to determine if they hold political views matching his own and therefore are qualified to be his client. Or maybe he should just concentrate on taking clients to concessions which actually hold the game being sought.

Anybody know if there is an appreciable difference in intelligence between Asian elephants and African elephants?

Asian elephants seem to be easier to tame and have been used to move logs etc. for quite some time now. Not sure how this translates to "intelligence". They can be trained I guess. Now, some of those "elephants" in Return of the King" would be something else to hunt!
Peter.

/

Alf,

You had me laughing out loud with that one.

Thanks,

Russell

In 1986, Mkele Mbembe was on holiday in Kenya after Graduating from Northwestern University.

On a hike through the bush, he came across a young bull elephant standing with one leg raised in the air. The elephant seemed distressed, so Mbembe approached it very carefully. He got down on one knee and inspected the elephant's foot, and found a large piece of wood deeply embedded in it.

As carefully and as gently as he could, Mbembe worked the wood out with his hunting knife, after which the elephant gingerly put down its foot.

The elephant turned to face the man, and with a rather curious look on its face, stared at him for several tense moments. Mbembe stood frozen, thinking of nothing else but being trampled.

Eventually the elephant trumpeted loudly, turned, and walked away.

Mbembe never forgot that elephant or the events of that day.

Twenty years later, Mbembe was walking through the Chicago Zoo with his teenaged son. As they approached the elephant enclosure, one of the creatures turned and walked over to near where Mbembe and his son Tapu were standing.

The large bull elephant stared at Mbembe, lifted its front foot off the ground, and then put it down. The elephant did that several times then trumpeted loudly, all the while staring at the man.

Remembering the encounter in 1986, Mbembe couldn't help wondering if this was the same elephant. Mbembe summoned up his courage, climbed over the railing and made his way into the enclosure. He walked right up to the elephant and stared back in wonder. The elephant trumpeted again, wrapped its trunk around one of Mbembe's legs and slammed him against the railing, killing him instantly.

Probably wasn't the same elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
It is PC today to humanize animals and use such practices as loving bones of a lost one yada, yada, there is no proof of this at all...

In reality I have seen cattle, horses, goats and sheep do the same thing with their dead, It is natures way of supplying what we call bone meal, a much needed source of potassium, that is what they are doing, then again I have never been politically correct person. I prefer to just tell it like it is and get in trouble.

Tell it like it is or tell it like you wish it to be? To each his own, but a response like this is weak. Your response sounds like a rationalization. There may not be proof. If there is proof, I doubt you or I know of its existence. That said, there is certainly not proof that an elephant CANNOT feel these emotions.

I have no interest hunting elephant either.