quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
...this proposal awaited further input and approval from the Director General, and at this time was merely market research to back up our proposal.

Compare this to ...

"HI ADAM
WE HAVE GOT THE ANIMALS TO HUNT IN CHEWORE,NYAKASANGA,SAPI,CHARARA-MAKUTI AND MATUSADONA..."

Just plain classic! Looks like everyone on this side of the pond got fed the same line of bullshit. Simply reinforces what I was told years ago about the Van Heerdens unfortunately.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

No hunts have been sold, and no money taken as this proposal awaited further input and approval from the Director General, and at this time was merely market research to back up our proposal. The fact that the US Based agent advertised these hunts as actually being available is unfortunate.

Yours in Hunting

Barry van Heerden
Big Game Safaris

From the very first post:

quote:

This a great opportunity for those of you still wanting to plan something for this year, and with these prices, it would be hard to find any better deal. Call or e-mail if you have any questions at all, or if you want to book one of these hunts.

Adam Clements

Doesn't look like it was a proposal at the beginning of this thread.

quote:

The fact that the US Based agent advertised these hunts as actually being available is unfortunate.

Ouch.

Ganyana, were there any other agents advertising this offering?

DON`T WORRY, I WILL GET ALL NECESSARY PAPERWORK FROM PARKS COPIED TO YOU, I AM SICK OF ALL THE BULLSHIT HERE TO, TRUST ME!! MAKES ME EVEN MORE DETERMIND TO PROVE THAT THESE GUYS FROM THE ASSOCIATION HERE ARE FULL OF SHIT!


When making a shit sandwich, be careful that you don't end up having to eat it yourself.

It will be interesting to see what Baryy V. H. sends along to Adam.

Ganyana, Could you please scan the document that resulted out of this? I'm sure we'd all like to see the final word. Also, there was talk of heads rolling. Who has been held accountable in the Parks dept.?

Thanks

Minkman

Ann

I have no idea if any other agents are marketing this. I see very little of Barry and haven't seen AJ in years. Actually, I try and avoid commenting on operators business, or prying too deep unless there is something that is going to impact on me or wildlife eventually. Still Science is the gathering of data, and the gathering of information on the hunting is just another form of research (and actually part of my job description).

Although I don't know Adam, I can't say that this necessarily reflects unfavorably upon Adam, as I'm led to believe that he was reporting what had been reported to him.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Barry van Heerden.

What appears to be most "unfortunate" to me is the about-face done between corresponding with Adam and the Parks Dept. by van Heerden!

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
One thing is for sure, I don't think I would be doing any business with van Heerden either as an agent or as a client after this little fiasco...

Very true.

"We have turned East, where the sun rises, and given our back to the West, where the sun sets," Mugabe told the 8,000 people at the Chinese-built national sports stadium, referring to efforts to seek new economic partners among the "Asian tigers."


Scorning accusations that March 31 parliamentary elections were rigged, he said: "We made our own democracy and we owe it to no one, least of all the Europeans. Let it be forever remembered: it was the bullet that brought the ballot. Our ballots have not needed Anglo-American validation."

Regardless of the facts in this particular situation it would be a cold day in hell before I gave a dime to Mugabe or his crew. If you lay down with dogs you will get fleas.

It looks like the Van Heerdens rescued their PH licenses from the fire by claiming they were just doing market research and blaming the offer to sell hunts on Adam, rather than fessing up to the fact that they were offering to sell hunts which National Parks never authorized. It says a bit about their character.

Adam, no doubt you have been bruised by this experience, but you are young and will recover.

I'm a bit suprised as it appears as a few of you are still taking shots at Adam. When you take a look at the 1st e-mail Adam received on these hunts......

HI ADAM
WE HAVE GOT THE ANIMALS TO HUNT IN CHEWORE, NYAKASANGA,SAPI,CHARARA-MAKUTI AND MATUSADONA!THE REASON NON EXPORT AND EXPORT IS THAT THE ELEPHANT IVORY HAS TO WAIT UNTIL DECEMBER TO SEE IF THERE ARE ANY CITIES TAGS LEFT,IF THERE ARE WHICH THERE NORMALLY IS THEN WE CAN EXPORT THEM!
THIS IS A NEW DEVELOPMENT WHICH WE HAVE ORGANIZED WITH PARKS,BUT NEXT SEASON THEY WILL SET TAGS ASIDE FOR US!
PROMPT EXPORT IS DEFINITE AS WE ARE WORKING WITH THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF PARKS HERE!
P.H ME OR MY BROTHER!
PLAINSGAME IMPALA,KUDU, AND HIPPO CAN ORGANISE ZEBRA AND WILDEBEESTE.
WILL LET YOU KNOW EXACT QUOTA ON MONDAY AFTER OUR MEETING

BEST REGARDS
AJ

would you think they were trying to "test the waters" or if they were ready to go.

I fail to see where Adam did anything wrong or wasn't 100% open with the information he had and if he made any mistakes during this episode it was in trusting the Van Heerdens. I think Al Sweargin from Deadwood has the right phrase to describe AJ.

quote:

I fail to see where Adam did anything wrong or wasn't 100% open with the information he had

I agree with that 100%. In my experience with Adam, he has always been 100% open with information. I am usually a pretty good judge of character and I have yet to see anything that would lead me to believe he was less than 100% honest.

Based on the information in this thread, I would sure be dubious about any dealings involving the Van Heerdens though.

Cheers,
Canuck

Hi Minkman

Don't own or have regular access to a scanner (don't usually have electrisity all day either). Most government correspondance is typed on a manual typewriter still.

The Association(s), Zimbabwe Tourism Authority or Don Heath at the African Hunter mag may be able to send a scan of the parks possition. If you look at my post of monday 18th you will see that I had sight of the letter - I typed it, but it hadn't been released yet so couldn't actually state the possition!

No Heads will roll at parks. A proposal was submitted to the provincial warden and further information requested. Once there was some trouble in the air, the PW delivered it to HQ at 4.30 pm on thursday (we officially knock off at 16:45 but most offices are securely locked by 16:30) requesting that the DG look at what he had recieved and if what he had requested was ok. Nothing I have seen (Investigations Branch may have much that I haven't seen) would indicate that the PW authorised any hunts or that he exceeded his office. There is evidence that his deputy knows more than he is talking about but I put all future posts in Gaelic if anything commes of that!

Bottom line is- agents are two a penny and several thousand miles away. Surviving here commes first. I belive that there were two versions of Barry's letter to the association (very similar) but have only seen one. Hopefully Sally Bown will have sent it out by now.

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
I fail to see where Adam did anything wrong or wasn't 100% open with the information he had and if he made any mistakes during this episode it was in trusting the Van Heerdens.

PRECISELY!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Ganyana,

Sorry I forgot that post. I'm sure Sally Brown will give us the entire letter verbatum. Please don't transscribe the letter for us. I really don't know when you sleep.

To all,

I really am going to have to rethink this whole Zim thing. I really wanted to see this country and hunt it. Most hunts come off well. However, I think its been said here often enough, the country is teetering and there are a bunch of quick scam artists. This plus how are you going to resolve any misconduct by a PH who's duped the licensing board, Parks dept. and an outfitter, when money talks.

I guess it'll just have to be NA game with the Lott for now while I save more. Tanzania, Botswana, and SA are a bit more(quite a bit!!!)

Adam,

No blood no foul! I'll be calling you when I get more fundage.

Hmmmm, wasn't there a guy in the mid-West offering cape buffalo hunts?

Thanks to all,

Minkman

Minkman, don't give up on Zimbabwe! In this situation the law worked, the culprits were caught red handed, and a big mess was avoided. Rule of law prevailed. Congratulations to Zimbabwe's National Parks staff for maintaining a level playing field.

Minkman - don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

It's easy to book a hunt in Zim.

Simply book with a well-established PH/Outfitter
CHECK their refrences
Check here on this board,
Check out the cancellation policy, etc...

quote:

Tanzania, Botswana, and SA are a bit more(quite a bit!!!)

And next year they'll cost more! and the year after, etc...

If you wait until you think you can "afford" to go - you'll never go.

On the other hand, I've never met anyone that regretted having gone.

Hang on a minute. Let me see if I understand all this correctly.
Agent "A" advertises a hunt here.
It is later found out that the hunt that Agent "A" advertised is illegal. (Maybe, kinda sorta?)
However, because Agent A is a good old boy, all is forgiven?
If Agent A wasn't a good old boy, who posts here frequently, he would be called a crook, (advertising an illegal hunt), kinda like Out of Africa?
I've read Agent "A" posts here , and I respect them, however, he screwed up.
I didn't see any advertisements from the Van Heerden boys, or anyone else, for a hunt. The only Ad. I saw was from Agent "A". So who is responsible? Agent "A"?
Na, its gotta be them crooked PHs.
Sorry Adam, thats the way I see it.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Hang on a minute. Let me see if I understand all this correctly.
Agent "A" advertises a hunt here.
It is later found out that the hunt that Agent "A" advertised is illegal. (Maybe, kinda sorta?)
However, because Agent A is a good old boy, all is forgiven?
If Agent A wasn't a good old boy, who posts here frequently, he would be called a crook, (advertising an illegal hunt), kinda like Out of Africa?
I've read Agent "A" posts here , and I respect them, however, he screwed up.
I didn't see any advertisements from the Van Heerden boys, or anyone else, for a hunt. The only Ad. I saw was from Agent "A". So who is responsible? Agent "A"?
Na, its gotta be them crooked PHs.
Sorry Adam, thats the way I see it.

To me it has nothing to do with who posts here (again, i don't know Adam from, well... Adam )

Look at the correspondance sent from the PH to the Agent...

Does an agent take a PH at his word or does he wait for a FedEx'd copy of an affidavit before he advertises the hunt that the PH has indicated to him that he has available?

Do you wait on affidavits before taking the liberty to engage in your business?

Now look at the PH's correspondance to the Parks Department.

My assumption is that based on this tone and content of the correspondance that Adam didn't know what was going on (8000 miles away) and took the PH at his word.

Ho Ho Ho. Two English clients have arrived at Marongora for one of these "ration hunts". Been told to Foxtrot Oscar by the warden and how about spending a few days game viewing at Mana Pools National Park instead? As you can imagine- they are not happy campers

Adam may have got some egg on his face but at least he found out what was cooking before he sent somebody all the way here and then got left trying to "make good" a bad deal.

Watch this space for more details. Have a sneaking suspicion that all is not over on this one yet!

New Guy,

Therein lies the problem (IMO). I think that the agent has a higher duty than to just take the ph's word, especially in Zim and especially on "bargain" or "special" hunts.

quote:

I fail to see where Adam did anything wrong or wasn't 100% open with the information he had

I have no bones to pick with Adam and from what many people say here, he is a reputable and honest booking agent- HOWEVER, that being said:

1. Adam Clements advertised something that was, to say the least, inaccurate or improper

2. In business and in life, you have to do your 'Due Diligence'- this is where Adam Clements, some would say, should have done much more homework

3. If some members saw 'Red Flags' right away, you know, 'this sounds too good to be true', potential warning signs etc. then Adam Clements, being an experienced booking agent and PH, probably should have noticed that maybe a little fact finding might help BEFORE he started to advertise this.

Again, I am only suggesting that some due diligence, especially beyond 'trusting some individual' is the obligation of the booking agent in accepting to book or advertise a particular hunt-- this is, in part, where Adam Clements, Safari Trackers FAILED.

CL

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanahile:
New Guy,

Therein lies the problem (IMO). I think that the agent has a higher duty than to just take the ph's word, especially in Zim and especially on "bargain" or "special" hunts.

I guess that's an "Occupational Hazard" of booking hunts... especially in Zim today.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Ho Ho Ho. Two English clients have arrived at Marongora for one of these "ration hunts". Been told to Foxtrot Oscar by the warden and how about spending a few days game viewing at Mana Pools National Park instead? As you can imagine- they are not happy campers

Ganyana,


Assuming they took firearms with them, all those guys need now is to be met by Special Branch as they step of the plane in back in Blighty...That *really* round the trip off for them and it might just happen if they kick up a stink in Zim ..

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Ho Ho Ho. Two English clients have arrived at Marongora for one of these "ration hunts". Been told to Foxtrot Oscar by the warden and how about spending a few days game viewing at Mana Pools National Park instead? As you can imagine- they are not happy campers

It'll be interesting to find out who actually sold them the hunt.

Cheers,
Canuck

Ganyana & friends,

This note from Sally B this morning...jim

---------------------
Please find below, the final statement from Barry Van Heerden on the "ration Hunt" saga.

Yrs

Sally Bown

ZATSO/ZPHGA

The official statement from Parks Director T.J. Meke is. " Mr van Heerden’s proposal was received from the provincial office late on Thursday 14th . No commercial use of the ration quota has been authorised at this date, nor is it likely to be"

Final Statement from Barry van Heerden on the "ration hunt" issue. 19-4-2005

Parks are looking at ways to maximist their revenue collection, and after discussions with various parks officials we submitted a proposal to make economic use of the approved Ration quota. The Provincial Warden, Dr Madzikanda asked us for a written proposal including details of the actual dollar value of these hunts. To this end, we placed adverts in the local press and also contacted a US based agent to determine what we could actually sell such animals for.

No hunts have been sold, and no money taken as this proposal awaited further input and approval from the Director General, and at this time was merely market research to back up our proposal. The fact that the US Based agent advertised these hunts as actually being available is unfortunate.

Yours in Hunting

Barry van Heerden

Big Game Safaris

[QUOTEThe official statement from Parks Director T.J. Meke is. " Mr van Heerden’s proposal was received from the provincial office late on Thursday 14th . No commercial use of the ration quota has been authorised at this date, nor is it likely to be"
[/QUOTE]

HunterJim,

Is this all that PD Meke's letter said?

Thanks

Minkman

This is my take on all of this, FWIW. I may be missing something, but this is how it seems to me:

1. Van Heerden, a non-union, but legally licensed and registered PH/outfitter, tries to convince government to change its policy/law and allow him to sell ration hunts. He makes money and so does the government.

2. Some areas where these hunts will take place have already been auctioned to other, union PHs/outfitters.

FIRST PROBLEM: Are the union guys getting screwed?

A. No. This is a new and different deal. The union guys never bought the right to sell ration hunts in the first place. This is merely the political process at work.
B. Yes. The union guys are entitled to exclusivity in their areas, or at least to the right to bid on any governmentally sanctioned tourist ration hunts conducted in their areas.

3. Van Heerden probably does convince provincial warden to support this deal, but clearly doesn’t have full governmental approval.

4. Van Heerden contacts Adam Clements and represents that he has a done deal on this, that it’s all over but the formalities. Adam Clements advertises the hunts.

SECOND PROBLEM: Should hunts have been advertised?

A. No. Nobody should advertise anything that is not fully governmentally sanctioned, especially in Zim where that kind of thing changes like the weather. Innocent buyers may be disappointed or worse.
B. Yes. Where’s the harm as long as no hunts are formally booked and no money is taken prior to getting full government sanction?

5. Union gets wind of this and raises a stink. Fires off emails and letters to membership, Zim and US government, etc., claiming that selling ration hunts to tourist hunters is illegal and strongly implying that Van Heerden is not legally licensed and registered.

THIRD PROBLEM: Is Van Heerden getting screwed?

A. No. This is politics. Unions must protect their members’ interests. Van Heerden should not try to go behind the union’s back or be surprised when union acts to protect it’s members’ livelihoods.
B. Yes. Van Heerden is doing nothing illegal. He is just trying to change government policy/law to his advantage. Plus, he is legally licensed and registered. He is simply non-union and that’s why the union is raising a stink.

6. Provincial warden somewhat belatedly asks Van Heerden for written proposal to submit to superiors. (Speculate here as to why . . . .) Van Heerden submits proposal. Government rejects it.

FOURTH PROBLEM: Is Adam Clements to blame in any way?

A. Yes. He should have done better due diligence and held back from advertising until full governmental approval was in hand. As a practical matter, advertising served only to alert opponents to the proposal, facilitate its defeat and ultimately embarrass Adam Clements and Van Heerden both.
B. Yes, but . . . Adam Clements is not a crook or in any way unethical as long as no hunts were formally booked and no money was taken (or, if taken, not returned promptly).

FIFTH PROBLEM: Are English hunters screwed?

A. Yes. Thoroughly.
B. Yes. Completely.

MR,

Now that is the most impressive thing I've read on this thread. I think you have it nailed.

Minkman,

I would never discount Zim from one of your possible hunting destinations.

I know a lot of people have taken the moral high ground about not hunting in Zimbabwe as they dont want to have anything to do with Mugabe and his cronies. Of course they are entitled to do this and i can see their point.

However it would still be my #1 choice if i was choosing a place to go hunting. The guides/PH's have the reputation for being the best in the world, the prices are good and the camps look great. All this together with the fact that if hunters do start boycotting Zim, it will make the future of hunting and wildlife in Zim much more bleak than it is at the moment.

Aslong as you make sure you book with one of the big well known operations then im sure that you will have nothing to worry about. As others have mentioned before you book anything, it would always be a good idea from what ive seen, to run your plans past the guys in here. Just as an extra assurance to yourself

I'm not gonna comment on who's to blame on this as I don't think it's appropriate for me to do so.......but at the end of the day you only get what you pay for.......and any cheap deal is cheap for a reason.

Anyone who books a cheap deal in any African country must be a fool if he fails to realise that there is a greater degree of risk when they book that cheap deal.

In the case of Zimbawe there are some very cheap deals to be had (generally the cheapest in southern Africa).....but most of the reason for this is caused by the political situation.....in this case a few people caught a cold.....well it had to happen to someone sooner or later.

The only way to get guarantees is to pay for them.

quote:

MR,

Now that is the most impressive thing I've read on this thread. I think you have it nailed.

I'll second that. Well summarized Mrlexma! Just how I read it too.

Cheers,
Canuck

I think agent due diligence is easier said to be done in Zim than actually to do. Sometimes you have to rely on what you have been told especially if told all the permissions were in order. The agent here hasn't hurt anyone if he hasn't sold anything but maybe has suffered some harm himself by being associated with this "deal". I am sure he is an upright guy and as such no lasting harm should happen.

Tanzania is much more stable with none of the Zim shenanigans. It seems every man and his dog is out for himself in Zim at the moment with the breakdown in law and order.

But at such times some really good (and legitimate) deals can be had. But if it looks too good, maybe you take a gamble and take a risk.

I would hunt Zim again without a doubt.

But hell those pommie hunters must be pissed off. I would be if photographing elephants instead of hunting them.

quote:

mrlexma

I think your summary of the events is very charitable to Van Heerden to say the least. While Adam was perhaps a bit quick off the mark to trust Van Heerden, and could have done more checking, I think the bait was definately set for Adam as it was for who ever solds those hunts to the two Brits. If those Brits have just arrived in Zim how long has Van Heerden been cooking this up and yet the offical proposels only reached the officals that matter on the 14th of April?

As a more general matter, perhaps some of the African old hands can tell me if cash bribes to petty officals are refundable if your scheme goes tits up at the last minute?

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

It does appear that Van Heerden spinned the status of the government's approval of this plan to Adam. At best one might conclude that he overstated his case.

As for the rest, it is of course possible that a bribe was used to attempt to influence the government's position on this matter. That happens in far less corrupt places than Zim. There is room for plenty of speculation on that in this case, but not enough (or any, really) hard evidence to support that as a firm conclusion.

Van Heerden's conduct in dealing with the government--i.e., exactly how he attempted to change its policy/laws--is unknown, except for his written proposal, which does seem like it may have been a CYA move, given its timing.

Also, Van Heerden's conduct in marketing these hunts, on his own or through others besides Adam, is also an unknown. Clearly someone will have some explaining to do to at least two of your countrymen.


I don't think it's a good idea to speculate too much about these things, though. And charity is a virtue.

This whole subject sounds suspiciously like ......Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:

HunterJim,

Is this all that PD Meke's letter said?

Thanks

Minkman

Minkman,

I sent all that I had, minus the email headers. I am a ZPHAGA member, so I get copies of Mrs. Sally Bown's notices to ZATSO/ZPHAGA members.

I am apending her details (from other correspondence).

Also I have stayed at her B&B in Harare, and it is quite nice...jim

Mrs. S. G. Bown
Administrative Officer

ZIMBABWE - SURPRISINGLY GOOD!

For further information when visiting Zimbabwe contact our Associations:-

Inbound Tour Operators of Zimbabwe
website: www.itoza.co.zw <http://www.itoza.co.zw>
Zimbabwe Association of Tour & Safari Operators
website: www.soaz.co.zw <http://www.soaz.co.zw>
Zimbabwe Professional Hunters & Guides Association
website: www.soaz.co.zw <http://www.soaz.co.zw>

18 Walter Hill Avenue, Eastlea, Harare, Zimbabwe
Tel: 263-4-702402 Fax: 263-4-707306
E-mail: zatso@mweb.co.zw

I know Adam would like to respond, but he is out of the country till next week.

quote:

The only way to get guarantees is to pay for them.

__________________--

Steve,
So, money cures all, eh? The only way to get "guarantees", as it regards anything in Africa, is to book with and through an experienced Agent or direct with a Ph/Outfitter, both of who have reputations and integrity that are long established and above reproach. "Paying" for it is secondary to that.

A lot of African Safari hunters have "paid through the ass" only to get shafted, bait and switched, etc. and I'm sure the 'apologies' from their kind Agents helped a bunch.

What I have noticed from some posting here as agents is glossing and generalities without regards to specifics and stepping up to the plate when things go bad.
Dungbeetle

Folks,

As Kathi has stated Adam is out of the country until Monday for a little R&R. I'm sure he will have some comments on the recent posts on the ration hunt subject on his return. In the meantime let me say that I have discussed this thread with Adam at great length and I believe he offered the hunts in good faith. Would somebody else have followed up further? How could anyone know that?

What I can tell you for sure is that Adam has treated me and my clients in our brief association with nothing but integrity and the greatest of honesty.

Regards,

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

As Kathi has stated Adam is out of the country until Monday for a little R&R. I'm sure he will have some comments on the recent posts on the ration hunt subject on his return. In the meantime let me say that I have discussed this thread with Adam at great length and I believe he offered the hunts in good faith. Would somebody else have followed up further? How could anyone know that?

What I can tell you for sure is that Adam has treated me and my clients in our brief association with nothing but integrity and the greatest of honesty.

Regards,

Mark

I have been way too busy to follow this or any other thread lately, but I talked with Adam about booking a buffalo hunt in Tanzania.

He mentioned that December can be quite good, and since that is a slow time for me, it sounded intersting, but kind of wierd. Adam could sense my concern and said, "Look, if you are not happy with your buffalo (two, actually), I will pay the trophy fee."

Like I said, I have not read the whole thread, but I might be inclined to take up Adam's offer. I will let you all know how it goes if I do.

Everyone makes mistakes; it isn't like anyone booked this hunt.

Just my 2 cents, so go ahead and jump on me.