quote:

It will be interesting, but will show that I have not acted wrong in anyway, and the facts may even surprise some of you and you may not be so quick trying to discredit some of us

Adam,
FWIW, your posts here have brought out a lot of "enlightenment" and a lesson for many. Interested in the outcome.

To all,

This has been an eye opener for sure, but I wonder if the Sally Brown organization is more bulldog than watchdog? The Van brothers seem to have a good reputation, but because they are not in the Association, they are Evil.

How many other operators that have good reputations fail to belong to the Association?

I'm quite sure that they do a good job promoting hunting interests. However, being a Zim entity and the amount of money to be generated by hunting, are they above reproach?

Just trying to sort this all out in my little mind (actually a Commadore 64 processer).

Thanks

Jerry McDonnell

Yeah! I wonder how ol' Sally got to hear about this "post on the Internet"?
Peter.

Jerry and Peter,

If you are sceptical, why don't you take the offer and act as "guinea pigs"?

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:
The Van brothers seem to have a good reputation, but because they are not in the Association, they are Evil.
However, being a Zim entity and the amount of money to be generated by hunting, are they above reproach?

Now, do you really believe that the Van Heerdens really have such a great reputaion and are more likely to be above reproach than the association? One actor in our tragedy of errors is essentially (with government authority or not) horning in on these areas while the other is simply supporting the opinion that this represents not only a legal violation, but possibly the beginning of the end for wildlife conservation in Zim. Once there is no organization to the process, a war of all against all in the hunting of African game will be the end of it for sure. To be honest, I don't know the Van Heerdens but was warned away from them years ago.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

There is nothing so gullible as the almighty $$$!!!
I doubt anyone above 8 yrs of age would have believed this kosher!!
One of those situations where you hope it was upfront knowing all the time at heart it could not be so.
I am glad that many recognise a shake down when they see it and no innocent first timer to Africa was hurt by this shonky situation.
APB

Adam - How many bulls are [were] they talking about in total - and how many from each area?

Are they [were they] planning to schedule these hunts during "off-periods", and/or in lesser areas within the concession, so as to not interfere with the "trophy hunters"?

Given the probable hard feelings associated with this, are they [were they] planning to use the camps of the authorized outfitters in each area?

One thing that strikes me funny is that shooting a 34x34lb elephant would be okay, but in some of the areas mentioned this is pretty much a "shooter" by all accounts.

In any event, I'm glad you posted this, and with the level of detail that you did.

Bwanamich,

I was just going on this post by Will. He has always been brutally honest.

We all know how org's with the best of intentions get run into the ground by a few people with an agenda.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I've shot rations with Barry van Heerdon some years ago, but all on the up and up, and during a "safari" for other game. He was always a square-shooter with me, but we went our separate ways. Barry and AJ were given the heave ho some years ago from ZATSO, and have been reinstated this year, as I understand it.

Hold on a minute guys. ZATSO/ZPHGA and Sally Brown are NOT on trial here. ZATSO is attempting to be sure that the laws are complied with for all ZIM hunting so that wildlife conservation can continue. This will allow the safari industry to thrive in the future. Personally, I am thankful that ZATSO has the backbone to sanction those who break the rules.

"...Personally, I am thankful that ZATSO has the backbone to sanction those who break the rules..."

Unlike SCI ha?

All I can say is that I opened up a hornets nest for sure on this one, which has turned out to get complicated.

For posters like 500 grains, there have not been any laws broken and do not think that you or anyone should assume so. The only thing that Zatso is is trying to sanction is that their members are the only ones allowed to hunt in Zim! Some of the best PH's in Zim are not members and they do not have to be members. I do not have a problem with Zatso and think that organizations are good, but do not think that anyone should accuse others of breaking laws, just because they are not members.

I will post some information below that I have which I have gotten from Barry and AJ van Heerden on these issues for all of you to look over and start getting an idea of what is going on here.

From the time they contacted me about these hunts up to now I still do not think that anything has been done wrongly or illegally from what I am hearing and being told.

This whole issue is all due to the members of the Zimbabwe association acting like they have control over all of the hunting in Zimbabwe. But, the real fact of the matter is that neither Zatso or the association have the control or the final say on any of the matters in Zimbabwe and only the Parks board and Wildlife department have the full control and say of what happens. The association is simply a club and if you are not a member, then they do not like you. Every single outfitter and PH in Zimbabwe have to be approved by Parks and Wildlife, and all outfitters are allocated their areas or hunting quota from parks and wildlife. It can get very complicated, but in simple terms it is just a matter of certain people who want to try and control the hunting and who is involved in the hunting, and do not like it when someone else who is not a member is allowed to hunt and is given quota to hunt.

These hunts have been accused of being illegal, but how can they be illegal when Parks and Wildlife has the control of any and all quota. Parks and Wildlife have the autority to do what they want with any of the quota that they have and decide who they want to allocate it to.

All I can tell you is that this whole thing is an inner battle among the people in Zimbabwe. I want to make sure that all of you know that I do not agree or back anything that is illegal, and to this day, I still do not think that these hunts can be proven to be illegal. As I have mentioned before, if it can be proven that these hunts are illegal, then I will wash my hands of them, but will not be pushed around and made to look bad just because a few there do not like the idea.

If you look at the facts of these ration quota hunts, it does not make any sense to me why it is a big problem. The ration quota will be allocated regarless of what happens, and the buffalo, elephant and hippo will be shot regardless. So, it is a matter of deciding whether it is better for the game wardens to go into the areas and shoot all of the quota themselves, or if it would be better for this quota to be handled by a proper PH and the animals hunted safari style. The parks will still get all their meat, plus they will now also have an income for the quota being sold. But regardless of how this ends up, the quota will be taken and there is nothing that the association can do about that. I would have thought that most of you would like this idea and be able to go and do an affordable hunt. Some of the people on this forum are also complaing about high prices, and then when a good affordable deal comes along, people go against it and start yelling illegal? I bet you anything that if one of the members of Zatso or the association had the opportunity at this deal they would have jumped all over it, and no one over there would be yelling fire then! There have been memebers here state that they shot ration animals while on safari, which means that must have been illegal as well? If so, why has Zatso not done anything to those outfitters that do allow clients to shoot extra animals when they are there for ration???? I can start naming some names of the big outfitters there that do this type of thing all the time, but do not want to open up another can of worms. All I am saying is that you should think twice before jumping onto someone else case when nothing has been proven to be illegal.

If something is wrong, then you should call me or contact me direct and fill me in, so we can find out what the real truth is before any jumps to conclusions. I do not have any problem with Zatso or Sally Brown myself, and just wish that everyone would try to work together over there. I am very neutral with this whole issue, but do not want to see any name calling until facts can be proved, then we will know who is right and who is wrong.

As I mentioned before though, I am a man of my word, and if this issue turns out to be wrong and was handled wrongly and the hunts are not above board, I will apologize, but to my knowledge everything is above board and why I offerred the hunts.

Now, I will copy below some of the information below that I have gotten for all of you to look over, and am sure that you will continue to try and judge some of us, but this is some of the stuff that I have.
________________________________________________

HI ADAM
WE HAVE GOT THE ANIMALS TO HUNT IN CHEWORE,NYAKASANGA,SAPI,CHARARA-MAKUTI AND MATUSADONA!THE REASON NON EXPORT AND EXPORT IS THAT THE ELEPHANT IVORY HAS TO WAIT UNTIL DECEMBER TO SEE IF THERE ARE ANY CITIES TAGS LEFT,IF THERE ARE WHICH THERE NORMALLY IS THEN WE CAN EXPORT THEM!
THIS IS A NEW DEVELOPMENT WHICH WE HAVE ORGANIZED WITH PARKS,BUT NEXT SEASON THEY WILL SET TAGS ASIDE FOR US!
PROMPT EXPORT IS DEFINITE AS WE ARE WORKING WITH THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF PARKS HERE!
P.H ME OR MY BROTHER!
PLAINSGAME IMPALA,KUDU, AND HIPPO CAN ORGANISE ZEBRA AND WILDEBEESTE.
WILL LET YOU KNOW EXACT QUOTA ON MONDAY AFTER OUR MEETING

BEST REGARDS
AJ
________________________________________________

BASIC QUOTA FOR MASHONALAND WEST
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ELEPHANT NON TROPHY 25 NON EXPORTABLE

BUFFALO36 HIPPO 18
KUDU 18
IMPALA 120
WARTHOG 18
THESE ANIMALS WILL BE TAKEN FROM THE ZAMBEZI VALLEY,WHICH CONSISTS OF CHARARA -MAKUTI,NYAKASANGA,SAPI,CHEWORE AND DANDE SAFARI AREAS!
NOTE THIS IS IN CONJUNCTION WITH NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OTHER OPERATOR!
________________________________________________
DEAR ADAM

I HAVE JUST BEEN ON THE PHONE TO PROVINCIAL WARDEN MASHONALAND WEST PROVINCE, Dr MADZIKANDA. HE IS COMING INTO HARARE TOMORROW APRIL 15TH TO MEET WITH THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF NATIONAL PARKS AT 8.30AM, CONTRARY TO STATEMENTS THAT YOU RECEIVED ON E-MAIL THAT HE WAS ATTENDING AN URGENT MEETING IN JAPAN.

HE HAS ADVISED ME TO WAIT UNTILL HE HAS COMPLETED HIS MEETING WITH THE D.GENERAL, BEFORE MAKING ANY FURTHER STATEMENTS ETC...I WAS TOLD THAT THEY WILL BE MEETING WITH SALLY BROWN IN THE MORNING TO INFORM HER THAT SHE IS OUT OF LINE WITH THE ACCUSSATIONS THAT SHE HAS MADE. I HOPE TO GET ALL THE FINAL DOCUMENTS AND PAPER WORK AND WILL KEEP YOU INFORMED.

FOR THOSE THAT ARE TRYING TO TURN EVERYTHING INTO SOMETHING ILLEGAL, IT IS JUST A MATTER OF OTHERS TRYING TO DOMINATE WHAT HAPPENS HERE IN ZIMBABWE. THESE SAME PEOPLE WHO TRY TO LIE AND CONVINCE OTHERS THAT YOU CAN NOT HUNT OR OPERATE IN ZIMBABWE WITHOUT BEING A MEMEMBER OF ONE OF THEIR ORGANIZATIONS IS PURE BS.

I ALSO WANT TO STRESS TO YOU THAT I AM SORRY FOR THE PROBLEMS THAT THIS HAS CAUSED YOU AS YOU HAVE A REMARKABLE REPUTATION AND ONE OF THE MOST HONEST PEOPLE I KNOW IN THIS HUNTING INDUSTRY. WE ASKED YOU TO HELP US MARKET THESE HUNTS AS YOU ARE PROBABLY ONE OF THE VERY BEST AGENTS IN THE US AND HAVE A GREAT CLIENT FOLLOWING. YOU ASKED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS AND WE SUPPLIED YOU WITH ALL THE ANSWERS TO ASSURE YOU THAT THESE HUNTS WERE LEGAL AND ABOVE BOARD. YOU HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG, NOR HAVE WE DONE ANYTHING WRONG, IT IS JUST A MATTER OF CERTAIN PEOPLE LIKE SALLY BROWN WHO THINKS THAT Z.P.H.G.A AND ITS MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE EXCLUSIVE HUNTING RIGHTS IN ZIMBABWE, AND WILL DO WHAT THEY CAN TO DISCREDIT ANYONE THAT GETS IN THEIR WAY.

WHY IS IT THAT NO ONE EVERY QUESTIONS WHAT OTHER OUTFITTERS DO HERE? IF ANYONE THERE THINKS THAT OUTFITTERS HERE WHO ARE VERY BIG, BUT WILL NOT MENTION NAMES, ARE NOT IN BED WITH THE POLITICIANS HERE, THEY ARE DREAMING! HOW DOES ONE EXPLAIN THAT LAST YEAR A CERTAIN OUTFITTER IN DANDE HAD A BUFFALO QUOTA OF 60 AND NOW THIS YEAR THEY JUST SO HAPPEN TO HAVE 120 BUFFALO ON QUOTA? WHERE DID THEY GET ALL OF THAT EXTRA QUOTA? WAS IT LEGAL? DID ANYONE CHECK INTO THIS MATTER? I THINK NOT. SO PEOPLE SHOULD WATCH AND CONSIDER WHAT THEY HEAR BEFORE THEY GET BRAINED WASHED BY A FEW PEOPLE TRYING TO CONTROL ZIMBABWE. I HAVE JUST AS MUCH OF A RIGHT TO QUOTA FROM THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE THAN ANY OTHER PH OR OUTFITTER HERE!

I AM A LICENSED PROFESSIONAL HUNTER IN ZIMBABWE - LICENCE # 457 ISSUED TO ME BY NATIONAL PARKS AUTHORITY ZIMBABWE. I AM REGISTERED WITH THE ZIMBABWE TOURIST AUTHORITY (ZTA) UNDER THE NAME `BIG GAME SAFARIS ZIMBABWE` HOP (HUNTING OPERATOR PERMIT) #0021 (I TRADE AS NYAKASANGA HUNTING SAFARIS, AS THERE ARE QUITE A FEW HUNTING COMPANIES IN AFRICA WITH NAMES TOO SIMILAR SOUNDING TO ``BIG GAME SAFARIS...``

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF Z.P.H.G.A OR ZATSO (MEMBERSHIP TO THESE ORGANIZATIONS IS PURELY VOLUNTARY, NOT COMPULSORY!!) FROM YOUR E-MAIL FROM ZATSO / ZPHGA, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THEY WANT THE WORLD AT LARGE TO BELIEVE THAT IF YOU ARE NOT A MEMBER, LISTED ON THEIR WEBSITE, THAT YOU ARE NOT A LEGAL HUNTING ORGANISATION. PLEASE CHECK WITH EITHER ZIMBABWE TOURIST AUTHORITY , OR YOU CAN VERIFY MY LICENSE STATUS WITH EITHER A MR. BOPE, OR A MR NYAMTORWA OF THE TOURIST HUNTING SECTION AT NATIONAL PARKS HEAD OFFICE IN HARARE.

I HAD AN IDEA TO MARKET MANAGEMENT HUNTS, I HAD A MEETING WITH PROVINCIAL WARDEN, PUT THE IDEA ACROSS TO HIM, WE DISCUSSED IT AT GREAT LENGTH, HIS DEPUTY WARDEN WAS ALSO IN THE MEETING. THEY SUPPORTED MY IDEA, AND ASKED ME TO PUT TOGETHER A PROPOSAL IN WRITING TO THE NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.

I COMPILED A DETAILED PROPOSAL, ON MY OFFICIAL COMPANY LETTERHEAD, IN DUPLICATE. ONE COPY WAS RETAINED BY THE PROVINCIAL WARDEN. THE OTHER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY HEAD OFFICE IN HARARE. AS I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE YOU DECIDED TO MARKET THESE HUNTS, THE PROPOSAL WAS APPROVED AND AGREED UPON AND WAS SIGNED BY THE PROVINCIAL WARDEN. THE DIRECTOR GENERAL HAS ALSO APPROVED THE PROPOSAL. I HAVE ANOTHER SCHEDULED MEETING IN THE MORNING AT 9:30 WITH THE DIRECTOR GENERAL AND WILL UPDATE YOU AFTER THAT.

AGAIN, I AM SORRY THAT YOU HAVE HAD SOME PROBLEMS AND HOPE THAT OTHERS WILL UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG AND IF THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANYTHING, THEY SHOULD CONTACT ME PERSONALLY. I WILL PROVE THAT ALL THIS IS LEGAL AND ABOVE BOARD.



KIND REGARDS

BARRY R VAN HEERDEN
________________________________________________

HI ADAM

MANY THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY...

DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THE MASS E-MAIL YOU SENT OUT TO YOUR VARIOUS CLIENTS?? WANTED TO GV A COPY TO P/WARDEN....AS A MATTER OF INTEREST HOW DID SALLY BOWN GET TO E-MAIL YOU? PROVINCIAL WARDEN WANTED TO KNOW, AS THEY ARE GEARING UP TO CALL IN SALLY BOWN / ZATSO AND GIVE THEM A GOING OVER, OVER HOW THEY HANDLED THIS, MORE SO THE FACT THAT SHE SEEMS TO HAVE E-MAIL ALL AND SUNDRY, BEFORE GETTING THE FULL PICTURE!!

THEY ARE SPITTING MAD WITH SALLY BOWN...SHE SHOULD HAVE EITHER CONTACTED MYSELF, OR PARKS IN THE CORRECT MANNER!!

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF HER ASS...SO SHE SHLDN`T BE WORRYING ABOUT WHAT I AM UP TO, LET ALONE SENDING OUT E-MAILS STATING HUNTS ARE ILLEGAL, WITHOUT FIRST CHECKING HER SOURCES AND INFO!!

DON`T WORRY, I WILL GET ALL NECESSARY PAPERWORK FROM PARKS COPIED TO YOU, I AM SICK OF ALL THE BULLSHIT HERE TO, TRUST ME!! MAKES ME EVEN MORE DETERMIND TO PROVE THAT THESE GUYS FROM THE ASSOCIATION HERE ARE FULL OF SHIT!

WILL KEEP YOU POSTED...

BEST REGARDS & YOURS IN HUNTING
________________________________________________

DEAR MRS. BOWN

I AM DEEPLY DISTURBED AT YOUR RECENT E-MAIL THAT HAS BEEN CIRCULATING WITHIN THE HUNTING COMMUNITY , BOTH LOCALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY!

IF YOU HAD TAKEN THE TIME, AND EFFORT TO MAKE CONTACT WITH EITHER MYSELF, OR A RELEVANT MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY(IN THIS CASE THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE AREA-MASHONALAND WEST PROVINCE), YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND OUT THAT THESE HUNTS ARE ARE INFACT NOT ILLEGAL, AS YOU HAVE MALICIOUSLY REPORTED. A MARKET SURVEY WAS CARRIED OUT BOTH LOCALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY TO ASESS THE VIABILITY AND RESPONSE TO MY PROPOSAL TO NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY, AND ALL INTERESTED PARTIES HAD FULL KNOWLEDGE, THAT THESE HUNTS WOULD ONLY TAKE PLACE ONCE THE FINAL PERMIT & AUTHORITY HAD BEEN GRANTED BY THE REGULATORY BODY, IN THIS CASE, ZIMBABWE NATIIONAL APRKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.

I MADE SEVERAL REPRESENTATIONS TO VARIOUS MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY WITH REGARDS TO A PROJECT I WANTED TO TRY AND IMPLEMENT, IN CO-OPERATION WITH NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY. I MET WITH THE PROVINCIAL WARDEN MASHONALAND WEST PROVINCE, DR MADZIKANDA, TOGETHER WITH HIS DEPUTY WARDEN MR. CHIMERAMOMBE. AFTER DISCUSSING THE MODALITIES OF THE PROPOSED JOINT VENTURE WITH NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY IN THEIR PROVINCE, I WAS INSTRUCTED TO PUT A WRITTEN PROPOSAL TOGETHER, GIVING IN-DEPTH DETAIL OF MY PROPOSAL. WHICH I DULY DID AND SUBMITTED THIS IN DUPLICATE TO THE PROVINCIAL WARDENS OFFICE. HE IN TURN SUBMITTED THIS PROPOSAL TO HEAD OFFICE IN HARARE FOR THEIR REVIEW.

IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT YOU DIDN`T GATHER ALL THE FACTS ON THE ISSUE BEFORE SPREADING MASS ALARM AND DESPONDENCY WITHIN THE HUNTING INDUSTRY, LOCALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY. I DEMAND A WRITTEN LETTER OF APOLOGY, AS WELL AS A RETRACTMENT OF THE STATEMENTS THAT YOU HAVE MADE ON THE INTERNET. I WANT PROOF THAT THIS STATEMENT HAS BEEN CIRCULATED TO ALL ``YOUR MEMBERS AND SUPPORTERS OF HUNTING IN ZIMBABWE`` WITHIN 24HRS FROM RECEIPT OF THIS LETTER. FAILING WHICH I WILL INSTITUTE LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AGAINST YOU, IN YOUR PERSONAL CAPACITY AND IN THE CAPACITY AS SECRETARY OF ZATSO / ZPHGA.

I HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH THE ZIMBABWE NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY THIS MORNING REGARDING THIS ISSUE. THEY HELD A MEETING WITH VARIOUS HEADS OF DEPARTMENTS AND WITH THE DIRECTOR GENERAL. THEY ARE ALSO EXTREMELY CONCERNED AND UNHAPPY WITH THE MANNER IN WHICH THIS MATTER HAS BEEN HANDLED BY YOURSELF, AND THE ASSOCIATION, AND ARE PREPARING TO MAKE A STATEMENT CONDEMNING YOUR ACTIONS.

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF ANY OF YOUR LOCAL ASSOCIATIONS. I NOTE THAT YOU FAILED TO INFORM THE HUNTING PUBLIC AT LARGE, MEMBERSHIP TO THESE ASSOCIATIONS IS PURELY VOLUNTERY,I AM LICENCED IN TERMS OF ALL THE REGULATORY BODIES OF ZIMBABWE ,HENCE IF YOU HAD ANY ISSUE REGARDING CONDUCT OR OTHERWISE RELATING TO MYSELF OR MY BROTHER, YOU SHOULD HAVE DIRECTED THESE TO RELEVANT LICENSING & REGULATORY AUTHORITIES. MY PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS LICENSE # 457 AND MY TOUR OPERATORS LICENSE HOP - 0021 COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN VERIFIED WITH TWO LOCAL PHONE CALLS WITHIN HARARE TO NATIONAL PARKS, AND TO ZIMBABWE TOURIST AUTHORITY.

I AM SUBMITTING THIS LETTER, TO THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY ZIMBABWE, HEAD OFFICE HARARE.AS WELL AS VIA I-MAIL TO MY INTERNATIONAL CLIENTS AND BOOKING AGENTS.MR. DON CAUSEY OF THE HUNTING REPORT. IT APPEARS TO ME THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN IT UPON YOURSELF TO BECOME THE REGULATORY BODY FOR HUNTING IN ZIMBABWE, AS WELL AS ABROAD WITHIN THE HUNTING INDUSTRY??. A MOVE WHICH, DUE TO YOU NEGLEGENT RESEARCHING OF THE TRUE FACTS, HAS CREATED A HUGE NEGATIVE FLOOD OF PUBLICITY FOR THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, AND THE ZIMBABWE NATIONAL PARKS & WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.

Yours faithfully

Barry R Van Heerden
Director / Professional Hunter
Big Game Safaris Zimbabwe

BARRY
________________________________________________

That is all for now guys, and will continue to update as I get information and hopefully will find out once and for all what the outcome is.

Well actually Bwanamich I AM watching to see how this shakes out. I don't know much about DG hunting but am certainly planning on going sometime before I die!
Peter.

Funny.....we're a band of 4 who are going hunting in that area. I will be hunting non trophy elephant and buff for 9890,- + the usual (airfare etc). but for 12 days not 7. Now that is a bargain and not even illegal or the least bit questionable.
I'll proably decide to hunt a trophy elephant which will up the price, but still a good deal.

Adam,

My post was not intended to bust your balls. I was posting in response to Minkman and Peter who seemed to be questioning the motives of ZATSO. And I continue to think that ZATSO and any other watchdog organization serves a very important purpose. The client community definitely benefits from ZATSO's work.

Personally, like you I would prefer that ration hunts be sold to the public because I would love to buy them (although you might not want to book one for me ). It seems a missed opportunity for a game control officer to shoot a couple of elephants for the pot when $10K or $15K could come into the local economy if a foreigner pulled the trigger.

However, the fundamental question here is not whether ration hunts should be sold, but whether Parks has approved these hunts or not. From a client perspective, it would be great if Parks eventually decides to sell these hunts (as long as it can be done without corruption). From a fairness standpoint though, probably the hunts should be sold through the safari companies that have already paid for the concessions in question.

Best wishes.

500grains, we are on the same page then and agree with what you just said and a much better way of putting it. You can come hunt or book with me anytime you want. As I mentioned above, we are on the same team here and better if we work together than try and cut each others throats.

If this is true, then one can hunt the auction areas for less than the auction prices for this year and be able to hunt when they want. Could also include warthog and Kudu for less than the auction prices. Seems this will defeat the Auction process. Which for this year would primarily hurt Out of Africa.

Love to know where Niels is hunting and with whom for that price.

quote:

as long as it can be done without corruption

Seems a bit much to ask for with the present situation in Zim.

Does anyone have access to the hunting laws and regulations of Zimbabwe? If so, do the law/regs address the issue of the who and how meat rations can be hunted? What do the contracts, that the outfitters who have these concessions, say about the rights regarding others hunting on their concessions?

Before we determine if it is legal/illegal, let's look at what the law/regs and contracts say. That is always a good place to start.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
However, the fundamental question here is not whether ration hunts should be sold, but whether Parks has approved these hunts or not...

Clearly, excess ration hunts should be sold if Parks staff and appy PHs also get their DG experience. However, I think a more fundamental question deals with the timing of the sale. Since parks is essentially, it seems, the final word in what is "legal" . . . the real question is whether or not it is ethical or moral for them to approve these hunts having already sold exclusive rights to the area. Is such an action in the long run interests of the industry and game? If I had paid big money for an area only to have another outfitter undercut my prices enabled (and with the blessing of) the original seller, I would be a bit upset to say the least. How do you think these feelings will impact the willingness of people to bid for these areas the next time around?

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Are these ration hunts not inferior type animals? Sort of like a management hunt? Or are the clients able to shoot any animal that they've paid for?

quote:

As I mentioned before though, I am a man of my word, and if this issue turns out to be wrong and was handled wrongly and the hunts are not above board, I will apologize, but to my knowledge everything is above board and why I offerred the hunts.

Adam,
No slam at you but I have some direct questions. The apologies you mentioned are one thing. Guarantees are another.

Do you Guarantee that these hunts are legal there in Zim and that they pass muster with the U.S. State dept?

And, do you Guarantee that if your hunter gets there and things go tits up with legal/political problems that prevent the hunts, he/she will get their money back (less outside expenses)?

Or, is part of this/all of this a Caveat Emptor, type of thing? Thanks.
Dungbeetle

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
Does anyone have access to the hunting laws and regulations of Zimbabwe? If so, do the law/regs address the issue of the who and how meat rations can be hunted?

Terry, I've tried to get a copy of the game laws for a couple countries. Seems that if you're not a PH, you can't get them.

So you're dependent on your PH for compliance, and as such, you have no idea whats legal or not. I wonder if they say "Watch your head sir" when they're putting you in the patrol car in Africa?

If anyone could get the Zim laws, please let me know how.

500 Grains,

Of course I question ZATSO's motives. Look at how powerful and corrupt government's and organizations are here in the US (local, state, & federal). Every club has it's politics, if you believe in the overall message, you'll send in your dues. However, they're always sayiing " support the club!", but God forbid ask a question, you're vilified. I'm surprised that being a lawyer, you didn't work out every possible defense and motive in your head way ahead of the rest of us.

Thanks

Minkman

I'm just seeing this thread and I understand the need to question information in the face of uncertain situations, however, attacking an individual with a proven track record of honesty is something else altogether. I have booked my last 2 safaris with Adam and I have known him even longer. I have found him to be nothing if not honest and straightforward. I will continue to do business with him and anyone suggesting he is other than this is sorely mistaken.

Minkman,

Although we can always find a way to impugn another's motives as being nefarious, there is absolutely no indication of that here. As posted above, ZATSO attended a Parks meeting of the highest level that included the director general, and none of the Parks officials had authorized the hunts in question. Further, as stated by a highly placed Parks official posting here, selling ration hunts is not permitted. ZATSO reported the same. ZATSO's action therefore appears to be above board and completely in line. Spinning out conspiracy theories based on nothing but idle speculation is not productive.

However, I can understand suspicion about the motives of industry organizations, especially when SCI which is supposed to be protecting our hunting rights, is busy auctioning off illegal hunts from Out of Africa Safaris.

Gentelmen. If anybody wants a copy of the Zim parks and wildlife act (chapter 20:14,) Standinging regulations - SI 362, bowhunting regs SI 11, new paperwork regs SI 22 and the 74 other statutory intstuments that govern some facet of hunting on a national or provincial level- send me much money and I'll put the documents in a fed-ex bag and send it to you!

On this current thread- sugest we let matters lie- for the moment. We will see a definative statement on tuesday when everybody gets back to work- but maybe wednesday as monday is a public holliday and trying to be clear and consise with a mother hangover doesn't work.

Dungbettle, Yes I can assure you that at the time I offerred these hunts I was 100% sure that they were above board and would be legal. The van heerdens had assurred me that everything was done and that their proposal had been agreed to, and everything was authorized. They were supposed to pick up the permits and the final documentation within 2 days and that I should go ahead and start marketing the hunts.

So, I had no other reason to doubt what was going on, and went ahead and offerred the hunts. I wanted to start getting the info out there and see what kind of response I got for these hunts and how many people would be interested in these type of hunts. Then once the permits were collected I would then be able to confirm with any interested client and get them booked for a hunt.

Yes, I would gaurantee any of my clients that I am always here for them and would make sure that they are refunded for the hunt if they got over there and as you say everything went tits up. I keep saying that I am not here to blindside anyone, and I have nothing to hide, and am 100% honest with everything.

As far as your question with these hunts being legal with the US, I would not see why they would not have been? If they Director General had authorized these hunts and the permits issued, then these hunts would have been just as legal as any hunt in Zim. I would think.

But, I have to think that now with all of this going on, and turning into a big political mess, I honestly do not think that it is worth my time to pursue anymore of this, and really doubt that any permits will be issued for these hunts now. I think that with all of this turning into a big political battle and with all of the agrueing and mud slinging going on that we might as well just put all of this to bed. But I can assurre you that from day one, nothing was done illegally and these hunts were legit and I did not do anything wrong at all when offerring these hunts.

Now we will just wait for the proper statement from parks and what they have to say.

JohnTheGreek, The best way to answer your questions is a reply that I got from Barry yesterday that should give you the answers to your questions.
________________________________________________
HI ADAM

I AM FULLY CONFIDENT THAT THE PARKS AUTHORITY WILL STAND BY US ON THIS ISSUE. YES,
SOME AREAS DO HAVE COMPANIES WHO HAVE LEASES ON THE AREAS AND QUOTA`S THAT GO WITH
SUCH LEASES.

SINCE THE CONCEPTION OF NATIONAL PARKS IN THIS COUNTRY, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN OTHER
QUOTA PROVISIONS IN VARIOUS AREAS, BE IT FOR RATION QUOTA`S FOR FIELD STAFF AND
STATIONS, TRAINING PURPOSES OR V.I.P HUNTING QUOTA`S FOR VISITING FOREIGN DIPLOMATS
ETC..NATIONAL PARKS THROUGH THEIR RESEARCH DIVISION, SET THESE QUOTA`S. WHICH ARE
THEN APPROVED BY THE DIRECTOR / BOARD OF DIRECTOR.

THE MINISTER OF TOURISM , AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY, HAVE
VARIOUS POWERS BESTOWED ON THEM BY THE GOVERNMENT OF ZIMBABWE, AND THEY CAN THEN
UTILISE OR MAKE DECISIONS AS PER THEIR APPOINTMENT.ON SOME OF THE MORE COMPLEX
MATTERS, THE FINAL SAY DOES REST WITH THE MINISTER OF TOURISM, AS HE IS ULTIMATELY
IN CHARGE .

I FULLY UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION ABOUT OTHER OUTFITTERS IN SOME OF THE AREAS, BUT IF THE ASSOCIATION HAD TAKEN THE TIME TO VERIFY THE TRUE FACTS, THEY WILL SEE THAT MY PROPOSAL HAS
PROVISION FOR FREE TRAINING ON LEARNER HUNTERS AND GUIDES WHO NEED EXPERIENCE TO
FURTHER THEIR QUALIFACTIONS, AND TAKE THE FINAL TEST TO BE A FULLY LICENSED
HUNTER/GUIDE.

AS YOU ARE FULLY AWARE, THERE IS HUGE ``POLITICS`` IN THIS INDUSTRY, NO MATTER WHERE
YOU GO. LETS WAIT ON THE RESPONSE THE AUTHORITY HAS COMPILED.

BEST REGARDS

BARRY
________________________________________________

I really do not want to get anymore involved with all the politics going on over this issue, as I have a businees to run and bills to pay. This type of thing no matter what the outcome would be is not worth it. There is no good in any of this as it only creates a fight and struggle within our own hunting communtiy, which I think is bad. We as a hunting community should consider ourselves as one big club and should only try to look after each other, instead of trying to fight and discredit each other. Even if there is a disagreement about an issue, we should handle it in a polite way to see what the facts are first before turning something into a huge fight and in the political arena, where things can not look good for us as hunters in general. I can see and have learned from just this issue that everyone in the hunting indsutry is very quick to judge and attack someone else though!

quote:

Yes, I would gaurantee any of my clients that I am always here for them and would make sure that they are refunded for the hunt if they got over there and as you say everything went tits up. I keep saying that I am not here to blindside anyone, and I have nothing to hide, and am 100% honest with everything

______________-

Adam,
My questions were not easy ones but you went straight to them with all of the info that you have. You are a Gentleman, I do not doubt your integrity and I very much appreciate your candor through all of this.

All in all, this has been a great and enlightening thread.
Dungbeetle

quote:

Originally posted by safari12:
Dungbettle, Yes I can assure you that at the time I offerred these hunts I was 100% sure that they were above board and would be legal. The van heerdens had assurred me that everything was done and that their proposal had been agreed to, and everything was authorized. They were supposed to pick up the permits and the final documentation within 2 days and that I should go ahead and start marketing the hunts.

So, I had no other reason to doubt what was going on, and went ahead and offerred the hunts. I wanted to start getting the info out there and see what kind of response I got for these hunts and how many people would be interested in these type of hunts. Then once the permits were collected I would then be able to confirm with any interested client and get them booked for a hunt.

Yes, I would gaurantee any of my clients that I am always here for them and would make sure that they are refunded for the hunt if they got over there and as you say everything went tits up. I keep saying that I am not here to blindside anyone, and I have nothing to hide, and am 100% honest with everything.

As far as your question with these hunts being legal with the US, I would not see why they would not have been? If they Director General had authorized these hunts and the permits issued, then these hunts would have been just as legal as any hunt in Zim. I would think.

But, I have to think that now with all of this going on, and turning into a big political mess, I honestly do not think that it is worth my time to pursue anymore of this, and really doubt that any permits will be issued for these hunts now. I think that with all of this turning into a big political battle and with all of the agrueing and mud slinging going on that we might as well just put all of this to bed. But I can assurre you that from day one, nothing was done illegally and these hunts were legit and I did not do anything wrong at all when offerring these hunts.

Now we will just wait for the proper statement from parks and what they have to say.

JohnTheGreek, The best way to answer your questions is a reply that I got from Barry yesterday that should give you the answers to your questions.
________________________________________________
HI ADAM

I AM FULLY CONFIDENT THAT THE PARKS AUTHORITY WILL STAND BY US ON THIS ISSUE. YES,
SOME AREAS DO HAVE COMPANIES WHO HAVE LEASES ON THE AREAS AND QUOTA`S THAT GO WITH
SUCH LEASES.

SINCE THE CONCEPTION OF NATIONAL PARKS IN THIS COUNTRY, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN OTHER
QUOTA PROVISIONS IN VARIOUS AREAS, BE IT FOR RATION QUOTA`S FOR FIELD STAFF AND
STATIONS, TRAINING PURPOSES OR V.I.P HUNTING QUOTA`S FOR VISITING FOREIGN DIPLOMATS
ETC..NATIONAL PARKS THROUGH THEIR RESEARCH DIVISION, SET THESE QUOTA`S. WHICH ARE
THEN APPROVED BY THE DIRECTOR / BOARD OF DIRECTOR.

THE MINISTER OF TOURISM , AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE AUTHORITY, HAVE
VARIOUS POWERS BESTOWED ON THEM BY THE GOVERNMENT OF ZIMBABWE, AND THEY CAN THEN
UTILISE OR MAKE DECISIONS AS PER THEIR APPOINTMENT.ON SOME OF THE MORE COMPLEX
MATTERS, THE FINAL SAY DOES REST WITH THE MINISTER OF TOURISM, AS HE IS ULTIMATELY
IN CHARGE .

I FULLY UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION ABOUT OTHER OUTFITTERS IN SOME OF THE AREAS, BUT IF THE ASSOCIATION HAD TAKEN THE TIME TO VERIFY THE TRUE FACTS, THEY WILL SEE THAT MY PROPOSAL HAS
PROVISION FOR FREE TRAINING ON LEARNER HUNTERS AND GUIDES WHO NEED EXPERIENCE TO
FURTHER THEIR QUALIFACTIONS, AND TAKE THE FINAL TEST TO BE A FULLY LICENSED
HUNTER/GUIDE.

AS YOU ARE FULLY AWARE, THERE IS HUGE ``POLITICS`` IN THIS INDUSTRY, NO MATTER WHERE
YOU GO. LETS WAIT ON THE RESPONSE THE AUTHORITY HAS COMPILED.

BEST REGARDS

BARRY
________________________________________________

I really do not want to get anymore involved with all the politics going on over this issue, as I have a businees to run and bills to pay. This type of thing no matter what the outcome would be is not worth it. There is no good in any of this as it only creates a fight and struggle within our own hunting communtiy, which I think is bad. We as a hunting community should consider ourselves as one big club and should only try to look after each other, instead of trying to fight and discredit each other. Even if there is a disagreement about an issue, we should handle it in a polite way to see what the facts are first before turning something into a huge fight and in the political arena, where things can not look good for us as hunters in general. I can see and have learned from just this issue that everyone in the hunting indsutry is very quick to judge and attack someone else though!

This is a perfect example of what I mean when I tell people, specially first timers, to book their hunts with a repuitable outfitter.

It does NOT cost them more, and gives them that extra bit of peace of mind.

Saeed,
You are right on in recommending hunts with a reputable outfitter.

Adam,
With respect, however much time the politics are costing you, you must work this issue all the way through because you started it.

All,
Yes, we'll see how Zim Parks rules on this. Looks as if the outfitter organized something irregular (if not illegal) with local National Parks official(s). The broad scope of this board, thanks to Adam's straightforward post, brought it to the attention of other outfitters in Zim and thereby to ZATSO which rolled the stone over, exposing the activity underneath. All in all, a useful oversight role for the Board, especially valuable in a country where law and regulation are more than usually subject to corruption and deviation...
Regards, Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
... thanks to Adam's straightforward post, brought it to the attention of other outfitters in Zim and thereby to ZATSO which rolled the stone over, exposing the activity underneath. All in all, a useful oversight role for the Board, especially valuable in a country where law and regulation are more than usually subject to corruption and deviation...
Regards, Tim

So I take it that you support ZATSO's attempt to effectively monopolize Zim hunting for their members?

If the hunts are/were legal, then that is the effective outcome here.

I don't know the Van Heerdens, but I know Adam. Call up his references (and any other clients you can find). Most are long-term repeaters - not what you'd get from a dishonorable man.

Don G,

Before any more fur is flown, are we not waiting for the official Zim outcome of all this?

Bill,

Yeah, I thought we were. I know I damned well was!

quote:

Originally posted by Don G:
So I take it that you support ZATSO's attempt to effectively monopolize Zim hunting for their members?

If the hunts are/were legal, then that is the effective outcome here.

First, it is a HUGE reach to assume that ZATSO is doing this. What they are accomplishing, whether intentionally or not, is protection of the auction system. As a long run conservation tool, this is to the benefit of all of us it seems. If the Van Heerdens wanted these areas, they had the chance to bid like everybody else. To horn in on another's area with or without government approval will certainly not make them popular around the old Harare Sports Club. Further, it should be obvious to you that "legal" does not equal "ethical" or "moral". Governments can arbitrarily decide that ANYTHING is "legal" or not...but that does not mean that it is "right" or beneficial in the long run. A government may say that it is legal to shoot a penned up cape buffalo and call it hunting but is it ethical? A government may say that war-vets can reclaim my land but does that make it right? A government may say that a profesional hunter can buy rights to hunt land that have ALREADY been sold...but does that mean it should be done?

I respect the fact that Adam wasn't trying to sell us a bill of goods here. I even accept the fact that the Van Heerdens may be operating "legally" in these hunting areas. However, it seems to me that endorsing this hunt with dollars acts against the interest of the game and ultimately against hunters in general.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

Originally posted by Don G:

So I take it that you support ZATSO's attempt to effectively monopolize Zim hunting for their members? If the hunts are/were legal, then that is the effective outcome here.

Don,

It sounds like Adam is a friend of yours, but please put that aside just for one mintute and forget Adams involvment in this.

All ZATSO are trying to do here is up hold the letter of the law which in this case benifits their law abiding members. I assume they would have taken the same stance if Van Heerden had been a member...

If the rules/laws have been changed to allow this particular type of hunt, why was it not made public? If these hunts were going to be seperate to the normal auctions, why weren't they auctioned in public at a later date? How did Van Heerden get granted these hunts with out anybody else getting a look in, ZATSO's members or not?? Something stinks at the Zim end, and I say that with no reflection on Adam.

If you reaserch back on the various threads, you will find that ZATSO's is trying to keep a handle on who lawfully owns the right to hunt in various parts of Zim in light of the number of squatters and war vets that have kicked off or murdered the original (white) farmers/ranchers/owners. There will always be some bitching between members and none members when you have organisations like this, but truely in all my time on this board ZATSO always seems to have been stright down the line with regards the "LAW" in Zim...Pity SCI weren't a bit more like them...

Regards,

Pete

For Pete E and Don G. The diffenence between belonging to ZATSO or ZISOA (the black operators association) is that when somebody shouts that you are up to something crooked- you get phoned/e-mailed and asked to give an account before anything goes out.

If you are not a member (or either association or the PH union ZPHGA) Parks/ZTA are contacted for a comment and then the warnings/condemnations go out.

My holiday has been trashed by this issue and the Peter Baker saga- haven't seen that one on this forum but he is selling buffalo in an area he doesn't have and putting a well known operator ( Russ Broom Safaris) on his card to add Authenticity...

The parks stance on these hunts is clear, and a letter has been written which will be delivered to ZATSO/ZISOA in the morning.

Ganyana,

Thanks for keeping everyone up to date on this.

Ganyana

Thanks as well.

Your timely postings probably have helped avoid people getting burned by these scams. Maybe even helped the USA agent not loose money too.

quote:

My holiday has been trashed by this issue and the Peter Baker saga- haven't seen that one on this forum but he is selling buffalo in an area he doesn't have and putting a well known operator ( Russ Broom Safaris) on his card to add Authenticity...

Ganyana, would you please trash your holiday some more and pointer to where we can find out about this one? Or better, tell what you know? I'm in contact about a buffalo hunting deal with these people, and certainly do not want to get my fingers burnt, so your input would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks a lot for any info.

Andrew McLaren

The Final Word on thes "Ration Animal Hunts"

“ Mr van Heerden’s proposal was received from the provincial office late on Thursday 14th . No commercial use of the ration quota has been authorised at this date, nor is it likely to beâ€

T.J. Meke Director (A&F)

Mr Meke is acting for the D.G. who is in the far east.

Mr B. Van Heerdens letter of today to explain what was actually going on to the association (and which has been circularised)

Final Statement from Barry van Heerden on the “ration hunt†issue. 19-4-2005

Parks are looking at ways to maximist their revenue collection, and after discussions with various parks officials we submitted a proposal to make economic use of the approved Ration quota. The Provincial Warden, Dr Madzikanda asked us for a written proposal including details of the actual dollar value of these hunts. To this end, we placed adverts in the local press and also contacted a US based agent to determine what we could actually sell such animals for.

No hunts have been sold, and no money taken as this proposal awaited further input and approval from the Director General, and at this time was merely market research to back up our proposal. The fact that the US Based agent advertised these hunts as actually being available is unfortunate.

Yours in Hunting

Barry van Heerden
Big Game Safaris

Q.E.D.

“ Mr van Heerden’s proposal was received from the provincial office late on Thursday 14th . No commercial use of the ration quota has been authorised at this date, nor is it likely to beâ€

T.J. Meke Director (A&F)

Hmmmmmm, so the proposal was only recieved late on the 14th...Very strange indeed if thats the 14th April and the original post by Adam was on the 12th of April...

And then van Heerden suggests that the US based agent (Adam I assume ?) was in some way to blame by advertising the hunts before they were "actually available"...

One thing is for sure, I don't think I would be doing any business with van Heerden either as an agent or as a client after this little fiasco...