quote:

Originally posted by targetshootr:
I saw an article about this on the Nat Geo site which links to this thread. It describes the role old male elephants play in their society which is the same basic role as any one of us. Rather than flame anyone who thinks trophy hunting is stupid here's another take: American love their animals and one of the saddest things you can endure is having to let the vet put one down. And we know elephants are smarter than a lot of humans so seeing a majestic animal killed for dubious reasons is a vile thing to do in the opinion of most of the world. Same for lion killers. Hunting to eat is one thing, killing to brag is another.

Who is the IDIOT???

If posting photos (on social media) of trophy hunters with collared lion, majestic elephant, polar bear, etc. are considered to be "teachable moments", then, by all means gentlemen, please carry on. My dangerous game trophies are stateside (in my trophy room) and therefore not subject to either public opinion or politics (i.e. - USF&W Service regulations/policies). I have many friends who were reared on either a ranch or farm and who enjoy hunting. Almost without exception, they are uncomfortable and dismayed when these photos appear on social media. Sometimes a little discretion can be a good thing especially when the so called "iconic" wildlife including, but not limited to, polar bear, lion, leopard, elephant, rhino, giraffe, etc. are involved. Cheers!

Think about it this way....hundreds drown on the boat trip from Syria or North Africa to Europe every week...probably thousands per month. Result: no one bats an eye. One kid washes up on a beach, gets his picture taken, and it is on EVERYONE'S news feed with everyone talking about how horrible it is (and they are obviously right. Still, what was it Stalin said about one death being a catastrophe and thousands a mere statistic? We as hunters could learn a good bit from this. If every hunter was very public about their hobby and posted their photos with regularity, the more controversial the better, events that were formerly catastrophes would become mere statistics if for no other reason that the activists simply could not keep up with all the hundreds of incidents of reality staring them in the face.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Think about it this way....hundreds drown on the boat trip from Syria or North Africa to Europe every week...probably thousands per month. Result: no one bats an eye. One kid washes up on a beach, gets his picture taken, and it is on EVERYONE'S news feed with everyone talking about how horrible it is (and they are obviously right. Still, what was it Stalin said about one death being a catastrophe and thousands a mere statistic? We as hunters could learn a good bit from this. If every hunter was very public about their hobby and posted their photos with regularity, the more controversial the better, events that were formerly catastrophes would become mere statistics if for no other reason that the activists simply could not keep up with all the hundreds of incidents of reality staring them in the face.

Let's please give Uncle Joe some respect - "one death is a tragedy a million is a statistic". Uncle Joe like Hitler and Uncle Mao did not deal in mere thousands.

Posting pictures is all swell till you are a CEO and you next shareholder meeting focuseses on your picture with a elephant tail. I would not put a hobby - hunting - over a livelihood. Keeping a low profile makes sense - why turn your trophy pictures in public protest material. No one cares about plains game or buffalo but posting picture of lions and elephants in public domain is subjecting a private person to becoming a public figure.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Think about it this way....hundreds drown on the boat trip from Syria or North Africa to Europe every week...probably thousands per month. Result: no one bats an eye. One kid washes up on a beach, gets his picture taken, and it is on EVERYONE'S news feed with everyone talking about how horrible it is (and they are obviously right. Still, what was it Stalin said about one death being a catastrophe and thousands a mere statistic? We as hunters could learn a good bit from this. If every hunter was very public about their hobby and posted their photos with regularity, the more controversial the better, events that were formerly catastrophes would become mere statistics if for no other reason that the activists simply could not keep up with all the hundreds of incidents of reality staring them in the face.

Let's please give Uncle Joe some respect - "one death is a tragedy a million is a statistic". Uncle Joe like Hitler and Uncle Mao did not deal in mere thousands.

Posting pictures is all swell till you are a CEO and you next shareholder meeting focuseses on your picture with a elephant tail. I would not put a hobby - hunting - over a livelihood. Keeping a low profile makes sense - why turn your trophy pictures in public protest material. No one cares about plains game or buffalo but posting picture of lions and elephants in public domain is subjecting a private person to becoming a public figure.

Mike

Mike, Really? Does the current airline ban on carriage of trophies extend to buffalo as well? Damn right it does.

Do you think that's the end of it? Do you think a total ban on the carriage of ALL trophies as freight is not in the antis' sights?

So are we back to the position of hiding in the shadows again (remember I stated it wouldn't take much effort to find threads advocating this) or are we finally ready to start educating the masses as to the benefits of trophy hunting, ala the call for a constant drip, drip, drip of positive PR on social media. It can't be both ways! And if you try to push positive PR for plains game and buffalo, you'd better be ready to defend elephant, lion, leopard, brown bear, etc. as well because the wacos are sure to bring them to the discussion. The antis know where to start with the "iconic" species, but they are ALL on the long term hit list! This goes back to getting the rabbit and squirrel hunters to understanding why lion and elephant hunting issues affect them as well, even though they may never hunt these species.

I understand what John is saying here. There can't be education to the masses regarding the positive benefits of conservation though hunting until you have the masses' attention. You don't get their attention without controversy. Take the DSC Black Rhino auction for example. It was calculated. Calculated to create enough controversy to raise people's awareness and get them talking ... then take the opportunity to educate them on the facts of rhino farming and conservation at large. That message got to a lot more people because it was a black rhino instead of an eland!

Rest assured, a positive PR social media campaign pushing the conservation through hunting perspective will be a downright ugly and dirty fight. I'm honestly doubtful many on this sight have the stomach to see it through.

Mr. Tendrams, I am not disagreeing with you. Unfortunately, in today's convoluted world, emotionally based public opinion carries more weight than scientific facts. The countries of Kenya and Botswana are perfect examples. On one end of the spectrum, we have ethical hunters and on the other end of the spectrum we have rabid anti-hunters. In the middle, we have a large majority of folks who are indifferent. We hunters should come "out of the shadows" and enlighten the so called "soccer moms" regarding the benefits of sustainable hunting practices. However, I am of the opinion that posting photos (on social media) of trophy hunters with so called "endangered" wildlife is not going to win over the hearts and minds of those who are currently indifferent. For example, I joined a good friend of mine for breakfast this morning. He was reared on a cotton farm located in the Texas Panhandle. During his younger years, he was an avid hunter and fisherman. He mentioned that he heard about this particular elephant on last night's news broadcast. Even though he was reared on a farm where hunting and fishing was a way of life, he stated that he was dismayed and concerned by the taking of this particular elephant. So if this ole country boy (my friend) was emotionally impacted over the taking of this particular elephant, good luck with your ongoing efforts to persuade the soccer moms that sustainable hunting should include collared lion, black rhino, majestic bull elephant, etc. Once again, sometimes a little discretion should prevail over egos. Please carry on. Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Think about it this way....hundreds drown on the boat trip from Syria or North Africa to Europe every week...probably thousands per month. Result: no one bats an eye. One kid washes up on a beach, gets his picture taken, and it is on EVERYONE'S news feed with everyone talking about how horrible it is (and they are obviously right. Still, what was it Stalin said about one death being a catastrophe and thousands a mere statistic? We as hunters could learn a good bit from this. If every hunter was very public about their hobby and posted their photos with regularity, the more controversial the better, events that were formerly catastrophes would become mere statistics if for no other reason that the activists simply could not keep up with all the hundreds of incidents of reality staring them in the face.

Let's please give Uncle Joe some respect - "one death is a tragedy a million is a statistic". Uncle Joe like Hitler and Uncle Mao did not deal in mere thousands.

Posting pictures is all swell till you are a CEO and you next shareholder meeting focuseses on your picture with a elephant tail. I would not put a hobby - hunting - over a livelihood. Keeping a low profile makes sense - why turn your trophy pictures in public protest material. No one cares about plains game or buffalo but posting picture of lions and elephants in public domain is subjecting a private person to becoming a public figure.

Mike

Mike, Really? Does the current airline ban on carriage of trophies extend to buffalo as well? Damn right it does.

Do you think that's the end of it? Do you think a total ban on the carriage of ALL trophies as freight is not in the antis' sights?

So are we back to the position of hiding in the shadows again (remember I stated it wouldn't take much effort to find threads advocating this) or are we finally ready to start educating the masses as to the benefits of trophy hunting, ala the call for a constant drip, drip, drip of positive PR on social media. It can't be both ways! And if you try to push positive PR for plains game and buffalo, you'd better be ready to defend elephant, lion, leopard, brown bear, etc. as well because the wacos are sure to bring them to the discussion. The antis know where to start with the "iconic" species, but they are ALL on the long term hit list! This goes back to getting the rabbit and squirrel hunters to understanding why lion and elephant hunting issues affect them as well, even though they may never hunt these species.

I understand what John is saying here. There can't be education to the masses regarding the positive benefits of conservation though hunting until you have the masses' attention. You don't get their attention without controversy. Take the DSC Black Rhino auction for example. It was calculated. Calculated to create enough controversy to raise people's awareness and get them talking ... then take the opportunity to educate them on the facts of rhino farming and conservation at large. That message got to a lot more people because it was a black rhino instead of an eland!

Rest assured, a positive PR social media campaign pushing the conservation through hunting perspective will be a downright ugly and dirty fight. I'm honestly doubtful many on this sight have the stomach to see it through.

End of the day hunting in Africa entails wirring money or writing a check. No one gets a discount for posting a picture of fb or ar or YouTube. If someone is impacted financially by a public profile with pictures of them and dead animals they have a choice to make. Earn a living and hunt low profile or provide a profile for the hunting community and lose business.

The anti are smart - they have figured you can target certain hunters financial position by having them
Associated with dead animals. The reason they can do this is a large segment of the public does not like seeing their dentist Doctor CEO celebrity next to a dead animals - the dead animals vary too a pheasant is not the same as a lion. If someone in the class that is impacted wants to become a lighting rod. I wish him luck. But realize that person is putting his financial earning ability on the line to show support for a hobby.

Steve Ahrenberg posted a while back - hunting politically incorrect animals - Lions elephants is like fight club. The first rule is don't tell anyone.

Till one is in the shoes of someone whose financial livelihood can be impacted by a picture of a hobby activity I would not be sure we are all in the same fight. The fight for hunting rights has different costs to some people. Not to me but I don't ever want to ever be a public profile so i will never post a picture with a dead lion on the Internet. Or talk to national geographic reporter who wants to know about a comment I posted on AR. AR is a much of a public profile as I ever want to have.

Mike

Cajun,

And my suspicion is your country boy friend may not have even known that elephant are still hunted or that big 90-100 pounders still exist. He was in the dark because we keep it that way. This is doubly true of the soccer moms. Of course, my strong suspicion is that the vast majority of people (especially soccer moms) are largely indifferent to all of this and that you will never ever convince the nuts. Given that, all you really need to do is put logic in the face of the 10% of the population who don't know what goes on in Africa and create an environment where you compare favorably to the emotional nuts on the other side of the argument.

Just as an example, I teach economics at a university and I will be the first to admit that my students are not the brightest, but I run through this example in class every semester of the Knowlton Rhino and his public statement that "the price was wrong" when he won the auction. I first give my students a discussion of the Coase Theorem (privatization and bidding yields an optimal allocation of pollution or anything else for that matter) and then ask my students to analyze the Knowlton statement and explain why "the price was wrong". In a class of 20, there are always one or two who immediately say "because the environmentalists weren't bidding to stop it"! Correct! Then I ask, "So, if that's the case, they should...."? Then I get at least five students simultaneously saying "They should shut up!" Correct again. This is 18 year old kids who can get it with about 20 minutes of theory and 10 minutes of practical application. Of course the world is more complicated and as people get older they get entrenched in their thinking but we can't expect to change anyone's mind with respect to hunting by hiding the fact that we do it. Frankly, I think that is selfish and might just be the surest path to ensuring that our kids or grandkids either don't get to hunt or have nothing to hunt.

As an aside, "endangered" or not doesn't matter. I have shot two different species much more rare than elephant (one just a bit less rare than Black Rhino) and post them all over my FB page....yet no one seems to care because they are not as "charismatic" as elephant or even giraffe. People are really strange that way!

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Cajun,

And my suspicion is your country boy friend may not have even known that elephant are still hunted or that big 90-100 pounders still exist. He was in the dark because we keep it that way. This is doubly true of the soccer moms. Of course, my strong suspicion is that the vast majority of people (especially soccer moms) are largely indifferent to all of this and that you will never ever convince the nuts. Given that, all you really need to do is put logic in the face of the 10% of the population who don't know what goes on in Africa and create an environment where you compare favorably to the emotional nuts on the other side of the argument.

Just as an example, I teach economics at a university and I will be the first to admit that my students are not the brightest, but I run through this example in class every semester of the Knowlton Rhino and his public statement that "the price was wrong" when he won the auction. I first give my students a discussion of the Coase Theorem (privatization and bidding yields an optimal allocation of pollution or anything else for that matter) and then ask my students to analyze the Knowlton statement and explain why "the price was wrong". In a class of 20, there are always one or two who immediately say "because the environmentalists weren't bidding to stop it"! Correct! Then I ask, "So, if that's the case, they should...."? Then I get at least five students simultaneously saying "They should shut up!" Correct again. This is 18 year old kids who can get it with about 20 minutes of theory and 10 minutes of practical application. Of course the world is more complicated and as people get older they get entrenched in their thinking but we can't expect to change anyone's mind with respect to hunting by hiding the fact that we do it. Frankly, I think that is selfish and might just be the surest path to ensuring that our kids or grandkids either don't get to hunt or have nothing to hunt.

As an aside, "endangered" or not doesn't matter. I have shot two different species much more rare than elephant (one just a bit less rare than Black Rhino) and post them all over my FB page....yet no one seems to care because they are not as "charismatic" as elephant or even giraffe. People are really strange that way!

You must have a tenured position professor. I am not being disrespectful. But those of us who's business depends on whims and decisions made every day can't afford to be in your face. Which is really against my grain. I struggle with allowing myself to be pushed around.

Jeff

All this is getting me dizzy.
I understand for someone not wanting to see himself with a lion on a highway billboard in the morning while driving to work(especially with a big grin).I don't understand how someone would not want to post a pic of himself next to his trophy on AR.Sometimes it's best not to give a shit as to what everybody thinks and do what YOU feel is right.

Mr. Tendrams, my ole country boy friend is aware that elephant hunting is legal in several African countries. I gave him one of my elephant panels so that he and his wife can have custom elephant skin cowboy boots made. Thanks for the civil and thought provocative discussion. Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

You must have a tenured position

I do, but didn't always an to be frank don't know that I will always stay at my university. Given that, if I publish this sort of thing I suppose it could hurt my ability to get a job elsewhere. I will grant you that academia is a sphere where it is easier to voice extreme positions because one can always claim it was being voiced to generate discussion or play devil's advocate. It would obviously be harder if one had to worry about offending clients etc. I wonder what percentage of elephant/polar bear/rhino hunters are retired or in a position to have the luxury of indifference to others' opinions? The sad reality is that this population subset may not be the most technologically literate.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

You must have a tenured position

I do, but didn't always an to be frank don't know that I will always stay at my university. Given that, if I publish this sort of thing I suppose it could hurt my ability to get a job elsewhere. I will grant you that academia is a sphere where it is easier to voice extreme positions because one can always claim it was being voiced to generate discussion or play devil's advocate. It would obviously be harder if one had to worry about offending clients etc. I wonder what percentage of elephant/polar bear/rhino hunters are retired or in a position to have the luxury of indifference to others' opinions? The sad reality is that this population subset may not be the most technologically literate.

I have hunted all the above. I post reports here if it suits me. But I don't Facebook it and I am sitting out Florida's first bear hunt in 20 years because it is a highly charged political arena. The tea leaves say that I should stay away.

It pisses me off.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
All this is getting me dizzy.
I understand for someone not wanting to see himself with a lion on a highway billboard in the morning while driving to work(especially with a big grin).I don't understand how someone would not want to post a pic of himself next to his trophy on AR.Sometimes it's best not to give a shit as to what everybody thinks and do what YOU feel is right.

Cause anyone can take your picture from AR or other social public media and splash it around the world. You can try and fight on copyright ect - but you already have a public profile by then.

Doing what you feel right might have real economic consequences to some.

Mike

quote:

Doing what you feel right might have real economic consequences to some.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
All this is getting me dizzy.
I understand for someone not wanting to see himself with a lion on a highway billboard in the morning while driving to work(especially with a big grin).I don't understand how someone would not want to post a pic of himself next to his trophy on AR.Sometimes it's best not to give a shit as to what everybody thinks and do what YOU feel is right.

Cause anyone can take your picture from AR or other social public media and splash it around the world. You can try and fight on copyright ect - but you already have a public profile by then.

Doing what you feel right might have real economic consequences to some.

Mike

I am not hugely worried. Just trying to be smart. If you google my name one of the first things that pops up is a picture of me with an elephant from an article I wrote for ASG. I have been fortunate to be published in
Sports Afield hunting a couple of the glamor species mentioned. So if you want to track me down, I am not hard to find. I am just trying to be smart about it now being in a referral based business.

Jeff

quote:

Let's please give Uncle Joe some respect - "one death is a tragedy a million is a statistic". Uncle Joe like Hitler and Uncle Mao did not deal in mere thousands.

No, it was 10's of millions and everyone was a story unto itself. May Uncle Joe/Mao/Hitler et al. all burn in hell ad infinitum.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
All this is getting me dizzy.
I understand for someone not wanting to see himself with a lion on a highway billboard in the morning while driving to work(especially with a big grin).I don't understand how someone would not want to post a pic of himself next to his trophy on AR.Sometimes it's best not to give a shit as to what everybody thinks and do what YOU feel is right.

Cause anyone can take your picture from AR or other social public media and splash it around the world. You can try and fight on copyright ect - but you already have a public profile by then.

Doing what you feel right might have real economic consequences to some.

Mike

I am not hugely worried. Just trying to be smart. If you google my name one of the first things that pops up is a picture of me with an elephant from an article I wrote for ASG. I have been fortunate to be published in
Sports Afield hunting a couple of the glamor species mentioned. So if you want to track me down, I am not hard to find. I am just trying to be smart about it now being in a referral based business.

Jeff

Nothing wrong in being smart. The florida bear public disclosure can get a whole bunch of people activated and agitated to dig deeper with the intention to cause economic harm.

The anti have figured out weak pressure points in the trophy hunting where they can bring pressure.

Its not going after the duck dynasty - its going after big 5 hunters. Focus on weak points - trophy shipping, public profile. They know the vast majority of the general public don't equate a duck as being the same as a elephant. That is the reality and they are focused. Why the whole issue with bear hunting in Florida and not hogs.

Mike

Each to their own in the end but I'll be go to hell if I let anyone intimidate me
And it happens on regular bases so I come right back with my own comebacks whatever suits the particular situation
We got so many pinecone eaters here in Montana I feel surrounded but I also get them right back if they got a problem with me as a Int hunter
I'm getting quite good at that
Loving every minute of it

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:
Without the lower jaw to do an accurate assessment of the Bulls age, but looking at his skull etc and weight length of ivory, we would put the bull at between 40-50 years of age.

Most people don't opt to shoot say a 50lber... It's all that around nowdays sadly.

I have heard that the last set of molars comes in at around 43 years of age on an elephant give or take. After that the elephant has 5-15 years depending on his diet before they are worn down to the point that the elephant begins starving.

Would you please clarify this for me?

Thanks

More or less, your comment is accurate. Elephants get 6 sets of molars, the last of which comes in roughly around the 40 - 45 year mark on average, from what a couple of scientists have told me personally. Diet, etc, plays a part in that according to them, just as it does regarding how long the last set lasts - according to what I was told. I would say on average that gives a bull elephant an average life span of 50 - 60 years at most. This particular elephant certainly had a very sunken head, usually a good indication of advanced age. To know exactly sure would be interesting.

But unless otherwise illegal for some reason, I would never suggest to anyone that this magnificent trophy should not have been hunted. What now, we are going to start saying that particular "trophy" is TOO big / TOO old - and he should be left alone to live out his last days and then die a slow death of starvation. Knowing full well nobody benefitted from his death at all, not the game department (trophy fee) not the outfitter / employees, not the hunter, and not the local community (meat / fees from hunting if applicable). Especially in places where often times the outfitter/hunters dollars/community have in fact helped to protect the flora/fauna where bulls like this occasionally roam. We appreciate the help, but just don't reap the rewards of your work/investment. Not to mention, the next worst likelihood is he's poached - what a true waste that would be. Tusks removed, left to rot in the hot African sun - all while some Chinese bozo smuggles the ivory back to China.

According to everyone, nobody even knew this bull existed - even that idiot Johnny Rodriguez said that. How can an animal, unknown to anyone - be an icon??? Ya, that's not how the whole icon thing works people. Obviously he wasn't a tourist attraction, a photo op, or a money generator for any National Park! He was simply a large wild animal, who happened to wander into a legal hunting area - where elephant hunting is what they do, that NOBODY was aware of until the pics hit the internet!!! I say congrats to the hunter, to Nixon Dzingai the same - and I hope this magnificent bull is displayed somewhere special to the owner. He's certainly garnered way more notoriety in death, than he ever did in life!!

Aaron since you are a supporter of scientific approaches to aging lions and designing optimal harvest rules. Have you ever asked or inquired how quota is determined at malanpati? Is there coordination with Frankfort zoo who runs the park on harvesting elephants ?

Mike

You would have to ask Zim Nat Parks, they set quotas in Nat Parks Safari areas. Whether they ask advice from the German organization there or not, I have no idea? I doubt it!

As I recall, Malapati gets roughly 6 elephant bulls per year on quota. Considering all the elephants in the Ghonarzhou, the hunting quota would not have any negative effect at all on elephant numbers. 6 or 16, the hunting quota would not put even the slightest dent in the elephant population in that place.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
More info on the hunt

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...ter-in-Zimbabwe.html


Nixon Dzingai, the professional hunter who led the hunt, said the elephant had arrived unexpectedly one morning towards the end of the German’s trip, and they had not realised the size of his tusks until it was too late.
"We did not have to stalk the elephant it just showed up at 7.30 in the morning, before the heat. I was so surprised when we saw how the horns. My client did not ask for this, he just wanted an elephant,” he told The Telegraph.
He defended the hunt as legitimate however, pointing to the age of the elephant. “I estimate this one was 60 years-old,” he said. “Anyone could see it was a very old elephant.”

Mike

"until it was too late"
It sounds like he was concerned somewhat about taking this particular animal.If so how can he explain the pictures on social media?

Knowing Nixon, and getting the info from them that I have over the past week or so - I can guarantee you his exact words are taken out of context. Saying it was too late, was just a figure of speech. He knew it was big, he just didn't fully realize the enormity of the bull until after he approached to dead animal. That was his reference to the "too late" statement.

Often times bulls this time of year linger in the hunting block a few hours past sun up, or come along late in the evening - and it appears from what they told me, this is what happened in this case. Most likely he was in search of better food and water, and simply was encountered by these guys as they were out in the early morning looking for tracks/bulls still in the hunting block.

As for pics on social media. Heck, I put a pic of the bull on social media, as did a couple others. I would be proud of the trophy, and would happily share pics with social media. If all was legal, and the trophy is obviously mature/old, then what's the issue?

I don't think Nixon even has social media pages, etc. Not that I know of anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Thanks for making my point. The problem is not that we are too public now, it is that we are not public enough. Hiding is NOT working so it's time to take a different strategy.

Curious, with this loud call for public visibility and saturating the public with information to "desensitize" them, how many hunt reports have you posted on AR? Do you include photos? If you do not post them on AR, where do you post them?

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
All this is getting me dizzy.
I understand for someone not wanting to see himself with a lion on a highway billboard in the morning while driving to work(especially with a big grin).I don't understand how someone would not want to post a pic of himself next to his trophy on AR.Sometimes it's best not to give a shit as to what everybody thinks and do what YOU feel is right.

Cause anyone can take your picture from AR or other social public media and splash it around the world. You can try and fight on copyright ect - but you already have a public profile by then.

Doing what you feel right might have real economic consequences to some.

Mike

Who knows if it will? You should live your life and take chances somewhere-make for some excitement-may stimulate and keep you on the edge.Just saying not to take things too serious.

this thread reminds me of----


http://forums.accuratereloadin...941040312#6941040312

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

To apply your logic, you are envious if you travel to LaPaz and see Carlos Slim's two huge yachts while you are out on a charter fishing trip and mutter that they don't make good fishing boats.

Sorry, that is not me. I believe most people are living the life they want, even if they have regrets in their later years.

THAT--
IS your logic-
and
It sounds like your own boat envy to me-

You have now portrayed words and ideas above that have never crossed my mind--

So you do not care for the terminology- envy--
I got it-

Get this-

When a hunter (Mike in this instance) degrades what other hunters hunt and the cost involved and adds the words :
"I'd love to hunt Africa but probably never will"
then proceeds to denigrate other hunters specifically citing cost --it is difficult to ascribe a word other than but---envy.
(ignorance might also be considered)

We all hunt?
I assume we all wish to continue?

THEREFORE:
Logically, we should quit denigrating each other for what we hunt, where we hunt, how we hunt and what the hunt costs.
(assumed--legally in all the above instances)

For if we do not--
the anti's are the least of our problems-

And YOU
you write about hunting?
Step up your game-
if you truly wish to help-

OR DO YOU TRULY SUPPORT/DEFEND HUNTERS THAT USE:

"98% of the hunting community would shake their heads in utter disbelief "

"incredulous at the idea of paying $25,000 to $75,000 to hunt a lion"

"folks that can afford"

"enormous amounts of money"

"extremely exotic and unusual"

"flummoxed that someone as smart as he apparently appears to be doesn't understand that he is part of a teensy, tiny minority of hunters who will ever be impacted by a US "

REALLY
you support this?
need I continue?

If that is the case-
hand in your hunting license
and your man card and join Virginia with the chaffing

For:
Appeasement is not the answer here-

Tearing each other apart for hunting animals we choose not to hunt is not the answer here-

Complaining about what another hunter paid is not the answer here-

Economics and the conservation services it creates is most likely our best argument

at least one the Africans get (they want and need the money)

Curmudgeonly yours:

In the end, we love to hunt so be it
Piss on people that don't like it.
Tough, I don't smoke weed but I don't tell anyone not to smoke it.
Opposite, I'm firm supporter of weed. Each to their own.
Same with hunting.
Again. we all should be praising the hunter and PH, but NO, we piss on each other.
Nothing but a bunch old women that we are.
Nixon is great PH and he knows his elephants, period.
All you naysayers, shame on you...

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
this thread reminds me of----


http://forums.accuratereloadin...941040312#6941040312

Ya, isn't that interesting? I am also reminded of the hoax Buzz pulled a couple years back with some trick photography showing what looked like a 100+ pounder taken. Funny, I don't recall anyone on that thread losing their minds over whether or not that bull should have been shot before it was revealed as a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Curious, with this loud call for public visibility and saturating the public with information to "desensitize" them, how many hunt reports have you posted on AR? Do you include photos? If you do not post them on AR, where do you post them?

First, was it a loud call? Frankly, it was no louder than your call for cowardice. Second, are you really "curious" or have you already been digging to see what I have posted? As a lawyer, you should be smart enough not to ask questions you don't already know the answer to. Third, what is this a "street cred check", counselor? OK, fine I'll play. As tendrams I have posted a few hunt/fish/bird shooting reports on AR (Scotland, Namibia, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada x2, maybe a fishing photo or two from Jordan) and under my previous identity (back about 14-15 years ago) I likely published at least four others (RSA, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada, maybe a US trip here or there). Yes, when I post them I publish the pictures and I leave them up for several months on AR and sometimes on the NE forum. I do however chose now to NOT leave them up forever as I had a problem with some of them being ultimately stolen and used commercially by low-rent agents with whom I had no relationship. Since I started leaving them up for a finite period, that problem has stopped. I do post ALL of my photos permanently on FB however with my Cheetah trophy photo actually being my profile photo (and my banner being a cheetah skin under two Eritrean Gazelle skulls) so they are quite public. I notice that yours are not. Finally, yes I SOMETIMES take the heat for my photos from "friends", family, and even colleagues but (as I said) I try to use their complaints as teachable moments and point them toward the light. I have actually been wearing down a British colleague for years on this topic and am making slow and steady progress. Actually got him to go fishing a few years back with the stipulation that we catch and release. When one tigerfish was severely injured in the process, he recognized the futile nature of releasing it and enjoyed fish cakes with the rest of us.

Best,

John

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Curious, with this loud call for public visibility and saturating the public with information to "desensitize" them, how many hunt reports have you posted on AR? Do you include photos? If you do not post them on AR, where do you post them?

What is this a "street cred check", counselor? OK, I'll play. As tendrams I have posted a few hunt/fish/bird shooting reports on AR (Scotland, Namibia, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada x2) and under my previous identity (back about 12-13 years ago) I likely published at least four others (RSA, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada). Yes, when I post them I publish pictures. I leave them up for several months but chose now to NOT leave them up forever as I had a problem with some of them being ultimately stolen and used commercially by low-rent agents with whom I had no relationship. Since I started leaving them up for a finite period, that problem stopped. I do post ALL of my photos on FB however with my Cheetah trophy photo actually being my profile photo so it is quite public. Yes, I take the heat for my photos from "friends", family, and even colleagues but (as I said) I try to use their complaints as teachable moments and point them toward the light. I have actually been wearing down a British colleague for years on this topic and am making slow and steady progress. Actually got him to go fishing a few years back with the stipulation that we catch and release. When one tigerfish was severely injured in the process, he recognized the futile nature of releasing it and enjoyed fish cakes with the rest of us.

Best,

John

Your actions don't exactly match up to your opinion all hunters should have a vigorous in your face public expression of hunting rights.

Mike

Sure they do! All of my photos are PERMANENTLY VERY visible to just under 600 people of all stripes (most being non-hunters) on FB each of whom I believe has the ability to comment or like or share the photos thus making them show up as theoretically visible to God knows how many thousands or ultimately tens of thousands of other people. FB is much more public and far-reaching than AR after all and is (perhaps more importantly) composed of a much more diverse demographic. Speaking of AR, which is a sphere where we are preaching to the choir let's face it, I remove my photos after SEVERAL months when they have probably been seen by thousands of people because I just don't want some unscrupulous agent lifting them and profiting by my activities as has happened before. Simple as that...AR has a history of attracting a higher RELATIVE concentration of crooked outfitters/agents than does FB. The photos are out there for public consumption via this medium however, and for a very long time before removal. Further, if I ever shot a big elephant it would be my FB cover photo in about 5 seconds making it visible to basically ANYONE who runs across my FB page (friend or not)....just as my current theoretically controversial images are VISIBLE TO ANYONE right this very moment on my FB banner. As an aside, I notice Jines (in his paranoia) has a totally blank FB cover photo and profile image. Who are you hiding from, Mike and what are you afraid of?

To continue, I have also had trophy photos as my desktop at work and have had taxidermy hanging in my university offices on two continents. People might have been shocked at first, particularly in an academic setting, but they eventually get over it trust me. If that is not enough of an effort on my part to satisfy you or Jines, who is clearly engaging in a ham-fisted ad-hominem attack above since he apparently can't effectively argue the point in question, then I just don't know what to tell you...but I can tell you that I am not a coward hiding my actions from PETA or someone who might want to blackmail me professionally! Didn't hide pre-tenure, don't hide now. Hell, as I told someone yesterday, if I had shot this 120 pounder, I think I would be thrilled enough to project the life sized image onto the side of my damned house...perhaps tattoo it on my forehead! LOL! PETA and controversy and most anyone else be damned!

Look, if people want to live their whole hunting lives in the shadows hoping against hope to avoid raising the ire of enviro-nutbags, then so be it. If people are going to have their livelihoods substantively and sufficiently damaged by being vocal hunters, they can (and maybe should) by all means keep quiet about it. Still, I think if most hunters are going to live like that, or if hunters who can afford to NOT live like that insist on doing so, then we might as well all hang up our rifles right now because there will ultimately be no sufficient level of appeasement that will quiet the likes of PETA, Lionaid, The London Telegraph or National Geographic. If we keep pussyfooting around, in the intermediate term lions and elephant will be the first to fall off the list of hunting options. A few years after that it will then be leopard and eventually everything else will follow. It should really be abundantly clear by what is going on with airlines and governments around the world that our current strategy sucks. Given that, I think it's probably a good time to change it.

Mr. Williams,

You are absolutely correct.

Way too many folks on this site, eliminating the anti-hunters who would rather fight among each other and also "talk the talk but never walk the walk".

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

Who are you hiding from, Mike and what are you afraid of?

No one, that is why I do not feel compelled to use a pseudonym.

Again MIke you are a star, GOB is my initials, Glenn Oliver Baker. I am not ashamed and need to hide behind some fake BS.

I use the name shootaway because it describes something about myself and the shooting world.It is a command the range officer might give once everyone is back from their targets and settled beyond the red line and ready to fire.It is a connection to shooting and the shooting range and shows that I like to practice shooting.It is similar to what a commercial enterprise might use to describe what they do or sell.Not using your personal name can also be a sign of being modest.
If you think people who don't use their name are trying to hide then how would you like it if we assumed you had a screw loose?

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Curious, with this loud call for public visibility and saturating the public with information to "desensitize" them, how many hunt reports have you posted on AR? Do you include photos? If you do not post them on AR, where do you post them?

What is this a "street cred check", counselor? OK, I'll play. As tendrams I have posted a few hunt/fish/bird shooting reports on AR (Scotland, Namibia, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada x2) and under my previous identity (back about 12-13 years ago) I likely published at least four others (RSA, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada). Yes, when I post them I publish pictures. I leave them up for several months but chose now to NOT leave them up forever as I had a problem with some of them being ultimately stolen and used commercially by low-rent agents with whom I had no relationship. Since I started leaving them up for a finite period, that problem stopped. I do post ALL of my photos on FB however with my Cheetah trophy photo actually being my profile photo so it is quite public. Yes, I take the heat for my photos from "friends", family, and even colleagues but (as I said) I try to use their complaints as teachable moments and point them toward the light. I have actually been wearing down a British colleague for years on this topic and am making slow and steady progress. Actually got him to go fishing a few years back with the stipulation that we catch and release. When one tigerfish was severely injured in the process, he recognized the futile nature of releasing it and enjoyed fish cakes with the rest of us.

Best,

John

Your actions don't exactly match up to your opinion all hunters should have a vigorous in your face public expression of hunting rights.

Mike

No such thing as "hunting rights"! Hunting is a privilege, not guaranteed to us by anything / anyone. I think its important to remember that little fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Curious, with this loud call for public visibility and saturating the public with information to "desensitize" them, how many hunt reports have you posted on AR? Do you include photos? If you do not post them on AR, where do you post them?

What is this a "street cred check", counselor? OK, I'll play. As tendrams I have posted a few hunt/fish/bird shooting reports on AR (Scotland, Namibia, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada x2) and under my previous identity (back about 12-13 years ago) I likely published at least four others (RSA, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Canada). Yes, when I post them I publish pictures. I leave them up for several months but chose now to NOT leave them up forever as I had a problem with some of them being ultimately stolen and used commercially by low-rent agents with whom I had no relationship. Since I started leaving them up for a finite period, that problem stopped. I do post ALL of my photos on FB however with my Cheetah trophy photo actually being my profile photo so it is quite public. Yes, I take the heat for my photos from "friends", family, and even colleagues but (as I said) I try to use their complaints as teachable moments and point them toward the light. I have actually been wearing down a British colleague for years on this topic and am making slow and steady progress. Actually got him to go fishing a few years back with the stipulation that we catch and release. When one tigerfish was severely injured in the process, he recognized the futile nature of releasing it and enjoyed fish cakes with the rest of us.

Best,

John

Your actions don't exactly match up to your opinion all hunters should have a vigorous in your face public expression of hunting rights.

Mike

No such thing as "hunting rights"! Hunting is a privilege, not guaranteed to us by anything / anyone. I think its important to remember that little fact.

Fingers crossed, it will be in Texas after November 3.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No one, that is why I do not feel compelled to use a pseudonym.

More ad hominem? Come on counselor...make an argument or pack it in.

I'm telling you guys, these seven pages should be all about JOB WELL DONE.
But no matter the differences among us all, we all love to hunt so I wish everyone great hunting this season.
Milan Plachy
Stevensville, MT

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No one, that is why I do not feel compelled to use a pseudonym.

More ad hominem? Come on counselor...make an argument or pack it in.

. . . let's see, I will "publicly" share information with my 600 Facebook friends, but use a pseudonym on a public forum with 47,550 members . . . then I will call on every hunter to be "very public about their hobby" and to post "photos with regularity, the more controversial the better" while I remove mine from the public forum website.

Hypocrite is the word that comes to mind.

Quit trying to argue around the actual point, counselor. Make an argument on topic (at least change up your fallacies a bit!) or simply admit defeat and move on. You really should just cut your losses as you look not only increasingly wrong but increasingly like a bad lawyer in the ongoing process of all this.

But...just out of curiosity...how long must I leave images on this server to meet your standard? I usually leave them for several months. Is six months enough? A year? Ten years? I had several photos up for several years until they started showing up on random agent's pages. As for Facebook, if you think more people see pictures here on the average hunt report than when they are posted by a guy with just 600 FB friends (who then share and like and comment on them) then you are absolutely delusional and have little understanding of social media. Further, and mot importantly, the people who view the images here are generally NOT (REPEAT, NOT!) the people we are trying to convince that the hunting of exotic species is beneficial to them. Given that, what exactly is your point in arguing that images need to be here forever to be relevant?

How about sharing your name so we can all check out your Facebook page?