quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I have hunted my whole life here in Texas. I've lurked here for several years and enjoyed reading your posts, your hunt reports, your complaints, etc. I'd love to hunt Africa but probably never will.

It just astonishes me that any of you folks think that the reason your losing this fight is because you haven't done enough to convince all hunters of the righteousness of your position in terms of conservation, etc. 98% of the hunting community would shake their heads in utter disbelief and incredulousness at at the idea of paying $25,000 to $75,000 to hunt a lion.... yet you expect them to leap to the defense of folks that can afford that sort of ridiculous indulgence (no offense intended, but you know...it is ridiculous) and shake your heads at how uninformed everybody is except you folks that can afford to shell out that kind of money to hunt. Much less to hunt an animal like a lion which, as we have seen over the past several days, evokes a certain energetic response from folks.

Wake up. Very very few people understand or are sympathetic to the idea or concept of shelling out enormous amounts of money to shoot what are, to the average American hunter, extremely exotic and unusual animals.

I have enjoyed Mike Jines' post for years. But, I am absolutely flummoxed that someone as smart as he apparently appears to be doesn't understand that he is part of a teensy, tiny minority of hunters who will ever be impacted by a US government decision to ban the importation of lion trophies to the US. Which is going to happen, if I had to place a bet.

I had lunch yesterday with 5 buddies. Four are on my deer lease. When the subject of Cecil came up, every single person at the table used the word "asshole" for this dentist who arrowed the lion.

The problem Mike is that if you think the antis are just out to eliminate elephant and lion hunting, I think you are being naive. Their objective is to eliminate all hunting, even the hunting you and your buddies do on your deer lease. Do you think that gun control advocates are just out to eliminate assault rifles and high capacity magazines, absolutely not. They pick the items that they think are easiest to pick off from a public relations perspective and go after those first and then move on to the next objective. Same with hunting. Why are polar bears, lions, wolves, cougars and elephants the focus now . . . because the public has empathy toward those species plus the antis realize that it impacts a relatively few hunters. But if you believe once they eliminate elephant and lion hunting they are going to be happy and declare victory and leave other hunters alone, I think you are mistaken. No, their objective is all hunting. But they are deliberate and patient and willing to take their time to get there. The fact that other hunters like you and your buddies do not appreciate that fact is both disappointing and troubling and another failure of groups like SCI and DSC.

+2....your deer hunting buddies should learn the are not safe either. Educate them..Mr. Jines is 100% correct

I went on a Bighorn hunt with Walter guided by Rick Guinn. He passed on some Squeekers and went home empty. I am interested to know if there was a Zim game scout on the hunt? Was Cecil actually with a pride ? and if he shot that animal and it was wounded for 40 hours did it not head back into the park????

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
If this guy had booked a lion hunt with a reputable outfitter/PH to enjoy a hunt and hopefully bag the best lion (in all respects) they could find, he would still be an obscure dentist in the Midwest.

Instead, he took his "size is all that matters" ethic to get an "MGM" lion and did so despite it being clearly illegal (no quota, no shooting), possibly illegal (and damned sure unethical) under American law by being on seized land, sloppily took a pride lion and brought a shitstorm down on hunters everywhere.

I hope his taxes for the last decade are spotless.

If you book with a PH who is known for operating within the rules/laws this won't happen to you.

The whole thing just makes me wonder if his bighorn was tied to a rock when he shot it.

To me the discussing "trophy hunting", or hunting in general, is very much like a political discussion, a religious discussion, a moral discussion. You see the opinions expressed on those discussions, envision the mindsets of those involved, and transfer those mindsets to hunting discussion. Hunters are their very own worst enemies, most can't get past their own little worlds and see the big picture, to get behind a united front, to save themselves.
Unfortunately, the "record books", do inspire a lot of conversation about "mine is bigger than yours", and become something that sticks in the minds of the non-hunters, and in many cases gives a bad impression, and to an extent, serves as a focal point for the antis to key on.
And, humans have been doing that for centuries, with various other subjects, they push opinions, there is always someone who pushes back with an opposite opinion or opinion variation, and round it goes again, the arguing, the vehement stances, the reasoned opinions. A lot of people will not read this entire thread, or just pick out the pieces they like and reject the rest.
Trick is, we need to get something going that will persuade those who haven't formed a fully developed opinion on hunting, to at least tolerate it, and understand its values to society and conservation. Not an easy task in this day and age of sensational and fractured journalism, and people who don't care about or want to learn enough, to see the big picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I have hunted my whole life here in Texas. I've lurked here for several years and enjoyed reading your posts, your hunt reports, your complaints, etc. I'd love to hunt Africa but probably never will.

It just astonishes me that any of you folks think that the reason your losing this fight is because you haven't done enough to convince all hunters of the righteousness of your position in terms of conservation, etc. 98% of the hunting community would shake their heads in utter disbelief and incredulousness at at the idea of paying $25,000 to $75,000 to hunt a lion.... yet you expect them to leap to the defense of folks that can afford that sort of ridiculous indulgence (no offense intended, but you know...it is ridiculous) and shake your heads at how uninformed everybody is except you folks that can afford to shell out that kind of money to hunt. Much less to hunt an animal like a lion which, as we have seen over the past several days, evokes a certain energetic response from folks.

Wake up. Very very few people understand or are sympathetic to the idea or concept of shelling out enormous amounts of money to shoot what are, to the average American hunter, extremely exotic and unusual animals.

I have enjoyed Mike Jines' post for years. But, I am absolutely flummoxed that someone as smart as he apparently appears to be doesn't understand that he is part of a teensy, tiny minority of hunters who will ever be impacted by a US government decision to ban the importation of lion trophies to the US. Which is going to happen, if I had to place a bet.

I had lunch yesterday with 5 buddies. Four are on my deer lease. When the subject of Cecil came up, every single person at the table used the word "asshole" for this dentist who arrowed the lion.

With all due respect sir, YOU miss the point. The price paid has got zero to do with this. This is a first step to eliminate all hunting . Deer might be next. We need to come to the realization that an attack on any element of our sport is an attack on all of us.

Trophy hunting is the noblest form of hunting; for only males in the twilight of life are taken, so there is zero impact on wildlife numbers. In fact if the meat is donated to the local community then there is that much less incentive and need to poach indiscriminately for meat. A great deal of money is paid and that creates a keen incentive to improve and expand habitat, it provides a livelihood for people who might otherwise become poachers or thieves, it provides skills training and basic medical care for otherwise unskilled people, and it leads to much more effective control of poaching as the activity is now in the private sector. None of this would happen if the hunts were "meat hunts" rather than "trophy hunts", because meat hunters are not willing to pay as much as trophy hunters.

When the desire for a spectacular trophy leads to shenanigans, then that is not the fault of trophy hunting. Just as the capitalist system is not responsible for bank robberies.

So to your deer hunting friends I say wise up.

quote:

for only males in the twilight of life are taken,

That, is not all that accurate.

From experience, the actual Trophy Animals are usually at the prime point in their life.

They are at the peak of their physical prowess, they are not animals that are declining. The majority of animals reach a physical peak and after that they decline until death.

That even applies to humans, they reach their physical peak and as they age past that point they physically decline.

quote:

If these organizations do not fundamentally rethink their approaches to advancing the interests of hunters and hunting, yesterday, we are going to continue to experience a slide in the rights of hunters.

There is a cynical side to me that says the major hunting clubs, along with the outfitters on the ground are not so apt to push hard because it would mean opening their books for the world to see. For example, in many article against trophy hunting, the author mentions that it's a 'rich man's game' or the 'wealthy' hunters whose big dollars only go to outfitters to make them rich while nothing monetarily goes to conservation/protection, locals, etc. In my opinion, the ONLY way lion et al. hunting will have a chance in the future is if it is seen as a legitimate method of doing what the average person, and the average 'conservation' organization cannot/is notdoing: funding the protection (as a whole) of endangered African wildlife. And the only way to prove this is happening is to open the books wide and showing HOW hunting is saving the very animals people seem to be so concerned about. Otherwise, the perception is that it's all talk for the sake of letting a few blood-thirsty lunatics kill rare game to compensate for their (lack of) manhood.

The fact is that lion etc. hunting is a very esoteric activity, understood by very few people, and partaken by even fewer. The average person (including about 99% of US hunters) have NO idea how it works 'over there.' In the US we have the RObertson/Pittman act that levies an 11% taxes for wildlife conservation that we can point to. We have license fees that do the same. Can anyone who cries for Cecil explain either of these? Furthermore, can they explain how wildlife is conserved in Africa; a place that might as well be on the moon for all the average person cares or knows? No.

I agree that the major organizations SCI and DSC need to get off their ass and instead of spending money on diamond circle plaques and fancy dinners, generate some information that in UNDENIABLE proof for what they claim: that they are on the forefront of wildlife conservation around the world. Saying it is one thing, proving it, undeniably, publicly, is another.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I have hunted my whole life here in Texas. I've lurked here for several years and enjoyed reading your posts, your hunt reports, your complaints, etc. I'd love to hunt Africa but probably never will.

It just astonishes me that any of you folks think that the reason your losing this fight is because you haven't done enough to convince all hunters of the righteousness of your position in terms of conservation, etc. 98% of the hunting community would shake their heads in utter disbelief and incredulousness at at the idea of paying $25,000 to $75,000 to hunt a lion.... yet you expect them to leap to the defense of folks that can afford that sort of ridiculous indulgence (no offense intended, but you know...it is ridiculous) and shake your heads at how uninformed everybody is except you folks that can afford to shell out that kind of money to hunt. Much less to hunt an animal like a lion which, as we have seen over the past several days, evokes a certain energetic response from folks.

Wake up. Very very few people understand or are sympathetic to the idea or concept of shelling out enormous amounts of money to shoot what are, to the average American hunter, extremely exotic and unusual animals.

I have enjoyed Mike Jines' post for years. But, I am absolutely flummoxed that someone as smart as he apparently appears to be doesn't understand that he is part of a teensy, tiny minority of hunters who will ever be impacted by a US government decision to ban the importation of lion trophies to the US. Which is going to happen, if I had to place a bet.

I had lunch yesterday with 5 buddies. Four are on my deer lease. When the subject of Cecil came up, every single person at the table used the word "asshole" for this dentist who arrowed the lion.

And there you have it--
ASSHOLE hunter, lurker, class envy artist--
lashing out condemnation on someone for what they wish they could do--or even if they do not wish they could do are jealous of the wherewithall to do such--


People--
you must be realistic and rational --the jealousy and woosification of the hunting community is rampant--
and is used to shred us -
just as the anti's hope and pray for-

I have stayed away from AR lately--
all the bickering , back bitting BS that goes on-

However-
I am not comfortable with the hypocrisy.

Face it -
I hunt, I kill--animals--and you?
And I wish to continue to do so-- do you?

So DO YOU?
What are you prepared to do about it?

If you wish to kill -you must agree killing in hunting ensures a violent act in itself.

If not what is shredding tissue, smashing bones, hydrostatic shock with blade or bullet?

Is it non-injurious, non-painful, non-killing in someway I have missed?

Is this something other than violence?

Is violence not inhumane?

So whether you are a puussified deer hunter
that claims to eat ALL they kill-
or a trophy hunter that never eats a bite-

WE MUST QUIT CUTTING OURSELVES TO BITS-

So YOU
NEW ASSHOLE--
get right with your hypocrisy--

WE ALL KILL VIOLENTLY--

If you agree animals have ANY RIGHTS and you kill them-

YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE--

and Particularly when you condemn others for killing -
EVEN animals you have no desire to kill-
(insert hunt if you cannot stand the word kill)

Good night Virginia-
hope your panties are not chaffing too much this evening-

I get really tired of this "class envy" crap on AR. Mike's point, as I understood it, was to illustrate that spending that amount of money on hunt that costs more than most people make, is not exactly going to create a groundswell of support in the hunting community anymore than the threat of AR15s is going to get a bunch of black powder enthusiasts stirred up.

Let's put this a different way. Mike likes to deer hunt. He has no desire to ever hunt lions, even if he has the money (I know one guy worth over a 100 mil who has no desire to hunt lions). No one in the US right now saw deer hunting under threat...until a jerkwad dentist decides he needs a lion in the record book and will do anything to do it. Larry, you are right, this can threaten deer hunting. But if it does, it won't be due to the actions of Mike and his peers, it will be due to Palmer and his kind.

Don't shoot the messenger guys; just trying to put up a different perspective. One thing is for sure: the "conservation message" is not well understood at all - the public thinks only a few cents on the dollar of these hunts goes toward conservation.

Put their ( Antis ) heads on my wall like Dayaks used to do
Is that wrong?

Guys,

here is the little two Canadian cents on that matter.

last year again some concerned citizen tried to ban grizzly hunting from the road. grizzly like elephant polar bear or lion are icons used by the antis and theyr agenda is very clear at the end this is all hunting as we discovered after a few meetings they shown us their real face. you can think a different way but this is exactly what they said and shown to us the grizzly ban was just a start ... and it concerned only 1 bear every wo years on average ,,,

we won this time in Yukon but for how long?

quote:

here is the little two Canadian cents on that matter.

last year again some concerned citizen tried to ban grizzly hunting from the road. grizzly like elephant polar bear or lion are icons used by the antis and theyr agenda is very clear at the end this is all hunting as we discovered after a few meetings they shown us their real face.

you can think a different way but this is exactly what they said and shown to us the grizzly ban was just a start ... and it concerned only 1 bear every wo years on average ,,,

we won this time in Yukon but for how long?

It can not get any plainer than that folks!

The anti's want ALL hunting stopped, PERIOD! It does not matter what ANY of us feel about hunting or our role in the activity, They Want It Stopped.

Deer/Elephant/Lion/Rabbit/Duck/Squirrel, it does not matter to the anti's, and the thing too many "Hunters" do not understand, is that the anti's have adopted the concept that they can and will win, if they simply attack the issue, One Species At A Time.

Once they get the Big 5 shut down, they will work their way down the list.

Until my eyes turn sideways like some twinky sodden anti- hunting maggot. I will defend trophy and meat hunting till I'm six foot under! The SCI,DSC and NRA better get off their asses and put an end to this bullshit! I will Not let the Anti hunters control my life with their putrid and perverted view of the world. Enough is enough! We need to take the offensive! These vegan screwballs need to be sent back to the hell they emerged from!

The ongoing frontal assault by the anti hunting mobs is reminiscent of The Battle of the Little Bighorn (at least in my mind). Fast forward 139 years, substitute the Little Bighorn with Southern Africa, Lieutenant Colonel Custer and his brave soldiers with dangerous game hunters, Captain Benteen with DSC, and Major Reno with SCI and it's deja vu. If I recall correctly, both Benteen and Reno refused to intervene in an effort to save Lieutenant Colonel Custer and his men. They were content with establishing a skirmish line until their adversaries tactically retreated to celebrate their well earned victory.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I have hunted my whole life here in Texas. I've lurked here for several years and enjoyed reading your posts, your hunt reports, your complaints, etc. I'd love to hunt Africa but probably never will. \

It just astonishes me that any of you folks think that the reason your losing this fight is because you haven't done enough to convince all hunters of the righteousness of your position in terms of conservation, etc. 98% of the hunting community would shake their heads in utter disbelief and incredulousness at at the idea of paying $25,000 to $75,000 to hunt a lion.... yet you expect them to leap to the defense of folks that can afford that sort of ridiculous indulgence (no offense intended, but you know...it is ridiculous) and shake your heads at how uninformed everybody is except you folks that can afford to shell out that kind of money to hunt. Much less to hunt an animal like a lion which, as we have seen over the past several days, evokes a certain energetic response from folks.

Wake up. Very very few people understand or are sympathetic to the idea or concept of shelling out enormous amounts of money to shoot what are, to the average American hunter, extremely exotic and unusual animals.

I have enjoyed Mike Jines' post for years. But, I am absolutely flummoxed that someone as smart as he apparently appears to be doesn't understand that he is part of a teensy, tiny minority of hunters who will ever be impacted by a US government decision to ban the importation of lion trophies to the US. Which is going to happen, if I had to place a bet.

I had lunch yesterday with 5 buddies. Four are on my deer lease. When the subject of Cecil came up, every single person at the table used the word "asshole" for this dentist who arrowed the lion.

And there you have it--
ASSHOLE hunter, lurker, class envy artist--
lashing out condemnation on someone for what they wish they could do--or even if they do not wish they could do are jealous of the wherewithall to do such--


People--
you must be realistic and rational --the jealousy and woosification of the hunting community is rampant--
and is used to shred us -
just as the anti's hope and pray for-

I have stayed away from AR lately--
all the bickering , back bitting BS that goes on-

However-
I am not comfortable with the hypocrisy.

Face it -
I hunt, I kill--animals--and you?
And I wish to continue to do so-- do you?

So DO YOU?
What are you prepared to do about it?

If you wish to kill -you must agree killing in hunting ensures a violent act in itself.

If not what is shredding tissue, smashing bones, hydrostatic shock with blade or bullet?

Is it non-injurious, non-painful, non-killing in someway I have missed?

Is this something other than violence?

Is violence not inhumane?

So whether you are a puussified deer hunter
that claims to eat ALL they kill-
or a trophy hunter that never eats a bite-

WE MUST QUIT CUTTING OURSELVES TO BITS-

So YOU
NEW ASSHOLE--
get right with your hypocrisy--

WE ALL KILL VIOLENTLY--

If you agree animals have ANY RIGHTS and you kill them-

YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE--

and Particularly when you condemn others for killing -
EVEN animals you have no desire to kill-
(insert hunt if you cannot stand the word kill)

Good night Virginia-
hope your panties are not chaffing too much this evening-

I get really tired of this "class envy" crap on AR. Mike's point, as I understood it, was to illustrate that spending that amount of money on hunt that costs more than most people make, is not exactly going to create a groundswell of support in the hunting community anymore than the threat of AR15s is going to get a bunch of black powder enthusiasts stirred up.

Let's put this a different way. Mike likes to deer hunt. He has no desire to ever hunt lions, even if he has the money (I know one guy worth over a 100 mil who has no desire to hunt lions). No one in the US right now saw deer hunting under threat...until a jerkwad dentist decides he needs a lion in the record book and will do anything to do it. Larry, you are right, this can threaten deer hunting. But if it does, it won't be due to the actions of Mike and his peers, it will be due to Palmer and his kind.

Don't shoot the messenger guys; just trying to put up a different perspective. One thing is for sure: the "conservation message" is not well understood at all - the public thinks only a few cents on the dollar of these hunts goes toward conservation.

I think I GOT his perspective and YOURS
pretty clearly--

You start slinging around TERMS of endearment (asshole)
like he has and you now have--(jerkwad)-
just what do you truly expect in return-

Likewise- when you espouse opinions that it is "INCREDULOUS" to spend X dollars
( insert what ever value) that you "CAN'T AFFORD"--
(HIS WORDS)
Do not be surprised if the term JEALOUSY or ENVY just might be applied -

As I wrote before--
This back biting and class envy SCHISM in hunting, esp here in the USA is tiresome where we should encourage everyone towards prosperity and meeting the goals of THEIR life--not your-

--AND it divides us-

and I'm old and I'm grumpy- and I earned my way to my financial position ,from a "less fortunate" position (we used to just call it poor)

So do not expect a retreat from my words or position-

This "CRAP" as you called it needs to stop-
what I did was elucidate someones bias
(jealousy, envy-you pick a term)
and
rain on their parade-

and discuss the uncomfortable truth about what we do as hunters-

WE , again, WE - need to quit speaking ill of hunting that we (assume) cannot afford or do not understand-

WHEN (and not before) someone is convicted or perhaps indicted with irrefutable evidence)-
should we be tempted to jump on the condemnation bandwagon--

Time for my siesta--
think of me as you will and comment as you will--

just mark my words
we must stop this

or your deer hunts etc-will too be deemed -incredulous , evil, expensive, etc

and the state and federal funds of "others"
that hunters "waste to murder" will be spent on enforcing against hunting

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
I have hunted my whole life here in Texas. I've lurked here for several years and enjoyed reading your posts, your hunt reports, your complaints, etc. I'd love to hunt Africa but probably never will. \

It just astonishes me that any of you folks think that the reason your losing this fight is because you haven't done enough to convince all hunters of the righteousness of your position in terms of conservation, etc. 98% of the hunting community would shake their heads in utter disbelief and incredulousness at at the idea of paying $25,000 to $75,000 to hunt a lion.... yet you expect them to leap to the defense of folks that can afford that sort of ridiculous indulgence (no offense intended, but you know...it is ridiculous) and shake your heads at how uninformed everybody is except you folks that can afford to shell out that kind of money to hunt. Much less to hunt an animal like a lion which, as we have seen over the past several days, evokes a certain energetic response from folks.

Wake up. Very very few people understand or are sympathetic to the idea or concept of shelling out enormous amounts of money to shoot what are, to the average American hunter, extremely exotic and unusual animals.

I have enjoyed Mike Jines' post for years. But, I am absolutely flummoxed that someone as smart as he apparently appears to be doesn't understand that he is part of a teensy, tiny minority of hunters who will ever be impacted by a US government decision to ban the importation of lion trophies to the US. Which is going to happen, if I had to place a bet.

I had lunch yesterday with 5 buddies. Four are on my deer lease. When the subject of Cecil came up, every single person at the table used the word "asshole" for this dentist who arrowed the lion.

And there you have it--
ASSHOLE hunter, lurker, class envy artist--
lashing out condemnation on someone for what they wish they could do--or even if they do not wish they could do are jealous of the wherewithall to do such--


People--
you must be realistic and rational --the jealousy and woosification of the hunting community is rampant--
and is used to shred us -
just as the anti's hope and pray for-

I have stayed away from AR lately--
all the bickering , back bitting BS that goes on-

However-
I am not comfortable with the hypocrisy.

Face it -
I hunt, I kill--animals--and you?
And I wish to continue to do so-- do you?

So DO YOU?
What are you prepared to do about it?

If you wish to kill -you must agree killing in hunting ensures a violent act in itself.

If not what is shredding tissue, smashing bones, hydrostatic shock with blade or bullet?

Is it non-injurious, non-painful, non-killing in someway I have missed?

Is this something other than violence?

Is violence not inhumane?

So whether you are a puussified deer hunter
that claims to eat ALL they kill-
or a trophy hunter that never eats a bite-

WE MUST QUIT CUTTING OURSELVES TO BITS-

So YOU
NEW ASSHOLE--
get right with your hypocrisy--

WE ALL KILL VIOLENTLY--

If you agree animals have ANY RIGHTS and you kill them-

YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE--

and Particularly when you condemn others for killing -
EVEN animals you have no desire to kill-
(insert hunt if you cannot stand the word kill)

Good night Virginia-
hope your panties are not chaffing too much this evening-

I get really tired of this "class envy" crap on AR. Mike's point, as I understood it, was to illustrate that spending that amount of money on hunt that costs more than most people make, is not exactly going to create a groundswell of support in the hunting community anymore than the threat of AR15s is going to get a bunch of black powder enthusiasts stirred up.

Let's put this a different way. Mike likes to deer hunt. He has no desire to ever hunt lions, even if he has the money (I know one guy worth over a 100 mil who has no desire to hunt lions). No one in the US right now saw deer hunting under threat...until a jerkwad dentist decides he needs a lion in the record book and will do anything to do it. Larry, you are right, this can threaten deer hunting. But if it does, it won't be due to the actions of Mike and his peers, it will be due to Palmer and his kind.

Don't shoot the messenger guys; just trying to put up a different perspective. One thing is for sure: the "conservation message" is not well understood at all - the public thinks only a few cents on the dollar of these hunts goes toward conservation.

I think I GOT his perspective and YOURS
pretty clearly--

You start slinging around TERMS of endearment (asshole)
like he has and you now have--(jerkwad)-
just what do you truly expect in return-

Likewise- when you espouse opinions that it is "INCREDULOUS" to spend X dollars
( insert what ever value) that you "CAN'T AFFORD"--
(HIS WORDS)
Do not be surprised if the term JEALOUSY or ENVY just might be applied -

As I wrote before--
This back biting and class envy SCHISM in hunting, esp here in the USA is tiresome where we should encourage everyone towards prosperity and meeting the goals of THEIR life--not your-

--AND it divides us-

and I'm old and I'm grumpy- and I earned my way to my financial position ,from a "less fortunate" position (we used to just call it poor)

So do not expect a retreat from my words or position-

This "CRAP" as you called it needs to stop-
what I did was elucidate someones bias
(jealousy, envy-you pick a term)
and
rain on their parade-

and discuss the uncomfortable truth about what we do as hunters-

WE , again, WE - need to quit speaking ill of hunting that we (assume) cannot afford or do not understand-

WHEN (and not before) someone is convicted or perhaps indicted with irrefutable evidence)-
should we be tempted to jump on the condemnation bandwagon--

Time for my siesta--
think of me as you will and comment as you will--

just mark my words
we must stop this

or your deer hunts etc-will too be deemed -incredulous , evil, expensive, etc

and the state and federal funds of "others"
that hunters "waste to murder" will be spent on enforcing against hunting

Duggaboye-O

I do hunt in Africa. And I was the first kid in my family to go to college. I built two very successful businesses. So what?

I just get tired of the word envy tossed around here whether it is wealth, outdoor personalities, etc. Let's face it: plenty of people want to be envied, which is just as sinful as being envious.

Maybe Mike is envious, but how the hell do you know that? To apply your logic, you are envious if you travel to LaPaz and see Carlos Slim's two huge yachts while you are out on a charter fishing trip and mutter that they don't make good fishing boats.

Sorry, that is not me. I believe most people are living the life they want, even if they have regrets in their later years.

One thing is for sure: I sure don't envy being an old grumpy man.

quote:

Originally posted by 209jones:
Hunters are their very own worst enemies, most can't get past their own little worlds and see the big picture, to get behind a united front, to save themselves.

Ding ding ding....

I agree with this statement. I feel that social media has had such a negative impact on the sport as a whole. It used to be that stories were shared on message boards like this one or via email and we got along ok. Now we have Facebook, twitter, Instagram and more and it is a narcissists wet dream and anybody can access it, twist it and use it as a weapon or a tool.

Social media and self promotion are going to make our battle a lot tougher. It goes back to the quote about that hunters are, in fact, their very own worst enemies, most can't get past their own little worlds and see the big picture.

The abrasive and aggressive nature of some to want to push their agenda out there, almost as if begging for a fight, does nothing to help us. It might be an attention grabber but it invites critisism and it provokes a fight. There is no sense in picking a fight publicly with a group whose ideals are shared with the main stream media. We have to do more, we have to be smarter and we have to stand strong and band together but that means we have to do it as a team and not as individuals.

Just my .02

I disagree. We need to learn how to own the narrative of african sport hunting. We need constant PR on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. We need to engage the enemy and overwhelm them with facts and positive images of the conservation benefits of sportsmen. Not wait for a disaster. Hunting leadership needs to evolve rapidly before we go the way of the wolly mammoth. Why should we hand social media over to the antis?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I disagree. We need to learn how to own the narrative of african sport hunting. We need constant PR on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. We need to engage the enemy and overwhelm them with facts and positive images of the conservation benefits of sportsmen. Not wait for a disaster. Hunting leadership needs to evolve rapidly before we go the way of the wolly mammoth. Why should we hand social media over to the antis?

Jeff

I never said we should hand it over, the point I am trying to make is that we need to use it more for the promotion of the sport of hunting rather than blatant, in your face and antagonistic self promotion. Social media itself could be a great tool if used correctly. All too often people use it to pour gas on the fire and it does not further our sport in any way.

I think that if you pick a fight and you get a fight people are pretty unsympathetic to the cause as you have gotten what you asked for.

The fact is it needs to be utilized in a smarter, more professional manner but this is just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I disagree. We need to learn how to own the narrative of african sport hunting. We need constant PR on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. We need to engage the enemy and overwhelm them with facts and positive images of the conservation benefits of sportsmen. Not wait for a disaster. Hunting leadership needs to evolve rapidly before we go the way of the wolly mammoth. Why should we hand social media over to the antis?

Jeff

I never said we should hand it over, the point I am trying to make is that we need to use it more for the promotion of the sport of hunting rather than blatant, in your face and antagonistic self promotion. Social media itself could be a great tool if used correctly. All too often people use it to pour gas on the fire and it does not further our sport in any way.

I think that if you pick a fight and you get a fight people are pretty unsympathetic to the cause as you have gotten what you asked for.

The fact is it needs to be utilized in a smarter, more professional manner but this is just my opinion.

I agree with Drummond. Personally, we do ourselves no good at all posting pics on Facebook. This just inflames antis.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

To apply your logic, you are envious if you travel to LaPaz and see Carlos Slim's two huge yachts while you are out on a charter fishing trip and mutter that they don't make good fishing boats.

Sorry, that is not me. I believe most people are living the life they want, even if they have regrets in their later years.

THAT--
IS your logic-
and
It sounds like your own boat envy to me-

You have now portrayed words and ideas above that have never crossed my mind--

So you do not care for the terminology- envy--
I got it-

Get this-

When a hunter (Mike in this instance) degrades what other hunters hunt and the cost involved and adds the words :
"I'd love to hunt Africa but probably never will"
then proceeds to denigrate other hunters specifically citing cost --it is difficult to ascribe a word other than but---envy.
(ignorance might also be considered)

We all hunt?
I assume we all wish to continue?

THEREFORE:
Logically, we should quit denigrating each other for what we hunt, where we hunt, how we hunt and what the hunt costs.
(assumed--legally in all the above instances)

For if we do not--
the anti's are the least of our problems-

And YOU
you write about hunting?
Step up your game-
if you truly wish to help-

OR DO YOU TRULY SUPPORT/DEFEND HUNTERS THAT USE:

"98% of the hunting community would shake their heads in utter disbelief "

"incredulous at the idea of paying $25,000 to $75,000 to hunt a lion"

"folks that can afford"

"enormous amounts of money"

"extremely exotic and unusual"

"flummoxed that someone as smart as he apparently appears to be doesn't understand that he is part of a teensy, tiny minority of hunters who will ever be impacted by a US "

REALLY
you support this?
need I continue?

If that is the case-
hand in your hunting license
and your man card and join Virginia with the chaffing

For:
Appeasement is not the answer here-

Tearing each other apart for hunting animals we choose not to hunt is not the answer here-

Complaining about what another hunter paid is not the answer here-

Economics and the conservation services it creates is most likely our best argument

at least one the Africans get (they want and need the money)

Curmudgeonly yours:

After the way this discussion has turned, does anyone really believe that hunters can put aside their personal differences and provide a united front to try and save hunting.

I think you guys grossly underestimate the opposition!
1. Where does the money go for your African DG hunt? How much of it goes to to the land owner, how much to the state, and HOW MUCH to the outfitter, PH etc. I asked this question a few years ago and, NO ONE answered. So if you really expect to carry the day with the 'conservation" argument I suggest that you be able to answer this question.
2. The antis are not stupid, despite your wish to think so. One on the radio said: " look I understand hunting for meat, food, but why hunt a lion? Now, before you trot out "well the locals eat that" you had better explain why they didn't in the case of Cecil!
3. You also had better explain why, when the importation of polar bear hides was banned, polar bear hunting by Americans took a dive. None of this 'thrill of the chase" bull---t. They wanted the hide, the trophy! This is now a REAL problem with the major airlines prohibiting the transport of DG hides etc. Just what effect do you think this will have on African hunting by Americans. Let's see if it has no effect!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Maybe hunters will begin to ask their outfitter/PH how many permits do you have for your area and how many have been taken so far and what constraints are there on the hunt. And if you book early, you might want to call your outfitter/PH before you arrive to make sure that all the permits have not already been filled. Otherwise you walk in circles for 14 days and get the "we'll get um next year I promise" promise.

That might cut down on the overselling of dangerous game when the outfitter/PH sells far more hunts to clients they have permits to fill.

Clients who blindly depend on their outfitter/PH to play by the rules may be in for a nasty surprise.

Opus1: Thank you for your post. You have quite possibly offered an explanation for why my first buffalo hunt in Africa was the most expensive hike of my life.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
After the way this discussion has turned, does anyone really believe that hunters can put aside their personal differences and provide a united front to try and save hunting.

Humans are humans, it's never going to be perfect. Trying sure beats bitching about it.

quote:

Trying sure beats bitching about it.

Excuse me if I am viewing this differently, but from many of the responses that have been given, it appears that there is more bitching than trying taking place.

We have some folks claiming that their view of what they believe to be proper and ethical hunting, outweighs what is legal.

We have others claiming that legalities should be the Number One priority.

Others on both sides are claiming Class Envy, and the list of different points of view on the subject goes on and on.

Hunting/Trophy Hunting along with Individual Hunting Ethics and Legalities seem to be walls that HUNTERS as a group, divide up into factions and stand behind them hurling insults/accusations.