quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Make it even more politically incorrect if someone would post a 1910s Nambia/Southwest Africa hunting license.

4 Elephant
6 Giraffe
8 Oryx
3 Bushmen
etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
The more I think about this situation, the more I think Tusker-gate would really blow over if some guy would just go out and whack a gorilla.

I recognized the fellow with the rifle on his shoulder.That's Todd Williams or no that is the brave but moronic "surestrike" or no wait that is Bwana Bunduki and Larry Shores.

Yep, and the monkey's name is George, just like all monkey's are named George!

Damn I just spewed diet coke all my Bloomberg keyboard.

That was too damn funny.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
The more I think about this situation, the more I think Tusker-gate would really blow over if some guy would just go out and whack a gorilla.

I recognized the fellow with the rifle on his shoulder.That's Todd Williams or no that is the brave but moronic "surestrike" or no wait that is Bwana Bunduki and Larry Shores.

Not me. I am 6'3" 245lbs and no stach...

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
The more I think about this situation, the more I think Tusker-gate would really blow over if some guy would just go out and whack a gorilla.

I recognized the fellow with the rifle on his shoulder.That's Todd Williams or no that is the brave but moronic "surestrike" or no wait that is Bwana Bunduki and Larry Shores.

Not me. I am 6'3" 245lbs and no stach...

OH OK

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Make it even more politically incorrect if someone would post a 1910s Nambia/Southwest Africa hunting license.

4 Elephant
6 Giraffe
8 Oryx
3 Bushmen
etc.

Yup

Perfectly legal and genocidal at the same time.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
So Aaron, an honest question or two - what in your mind is going to change how the rest of the world thinks about and responds to trophy hunting? Do you ever see a day where it is gong to be embraced and accepted as it was say during the 1900 - 1970 time frame? Do you ever see an end to the rabid anti-hunting, animal rights campaign and the rabid freaks that promote such nonsense?

No, I don't think it will change to be honest - but that doesn't mean I am willing to lay down and let them take from me what they will.

You want my hunting privileges, come take em - but be prepared to get smacked in the mouth. But I am not just going to cower in the corner while you pillage my house. Its cheesy I know, but I think you get the point.

Good judgment goes a long way. One has to pick and choose what to say and when. As the old saying goes, timing is everything .

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...-property-mogul.html

He does not seem to want to be the public face of elephant hunting and I don't blame him.

Mike

Mike - I just don't understand what a lot of you guys are so scared of? What are they going to do, take away your birthday? If one can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! If one doesn't have the fortitude to stand for your convictions, then don't participate in the volatile activities in the first place!

So some people now won't like you, who cares?? I've had a million emails, text messages, FB messages all threatening my life, my job, contacting my sponsors (as of late) with outrageous lies, and the list goes on. Who cares?? They never amount to anything other than hot air. Stand up, be proud of who you are / what you do - and tell those who are factually incorrect as it pertains to hunting - to piss off.

Hiding in the corner, being politically correct and/or pandering to idiots will only garner idiot results! Want proof, how's it been working for us so far???

I don't mean that we be rude, offensive, use vulgarities, threaten them and so. They do so - because that's the only argument they have. But when do the masses of hunters decide to fight back - once the war's over its a bit late then my friend.

Trump to date has been so successful in the GOP running, and why? Because millions of people are tired of politicians apologizing, pandering, hiding, and being politically correct. They are tired of it, and many thousands of hunters are tired of seeing either their fellow hunters / or hunting leaders doing the same! Its just a comparison, please don't get off topic!

Anti hunters, and the anti hunting movement (pushed via social media, and complete false propaganda) has totally taken on a bully mentality in the past few years. Truly out of control, and completely void of any respect for others. And guys, there's only ever been one way to deal with a bully - you gotta stand up and smack em in the mouth! That's the only thing they know / respect, period! Any of you guys remember Chris Kyle's SEAL team fellow member a few years back giving the interview the CNN reporter? His quote to her "Ma'am, despite what your mommy might have told you - sometimes violence does solve problems!" I don't mean we use violence per say, my point is - his point was that sometimes you have to take the fight to the aggressor if you ultimately want to win.

IMHO, we hunters are at a real crossroads - and our very privilege to hunt the world (Africa in particular) is teetering on the edge. We can either gather our arms and start to push back, even taking the offensive - knowing we have CONSERVATION BENEFITS on our side. Or, we can take the politically correct route - counter punch at best (which is always a loosing proposition) and sit back while we are systematically broken apart piece by piece. You think I'm wrong, or over-reacting, really??? Lets see, Bots completely CLOSED, Zambia back/forth cluster F**K every few years (And I love Zambia - my favorite country to hunt) Zim ivory importation ban into USA (NO GOOD REASON FOR THIS) Lion hunting all but gone or turned into a total goat rope in many places, and the list goes on and on.

Yep, no doubt some will disagree - I get that. But, we've been playing it the other way so far - and we have a whole lot of evidence to support that is NOT WORKING!!!

Aaron

Its easy for you cause you earn your living in the hunting business and you have a public profile as a hunting personality. The hate mails ect are a cost of doing business. You really don't have it relatively that bad from the animal right activist - if you are in a CEO of a medical company that uses animals in tests ect it is much much worse. Some with police and private protection. What I am saying is it could and most likely will get much worse.

There is a cost to being very public about hunting. The activity of hunting some "public animals" - right now lions, elephants, maybe bears in florida - is you become a public figure. Your hunt pictures with a dead lion or dead elephant will show up everytime you are searched on a search engine. Does a person going on hobby/vacation want to have that be his first public association. For you Aaron public figure, occupation, earnings are all one and the same. For other 99% its not.

If you are a dentist or doctor or some other professional occupation based on referrals (something these days that is very social media driven) do you want you first professional search to show a picture of you and a dead elephant. I post hunt pictures on AR and a lot of people on AR over time know me. But it is unlikely I would use my full name and post hunt pictures. I would do one or the other. Just cause I don't want some guy to google me and show up with picture of me and dead animals. AR is not searchable on google - that is great. I just don't want my image out there readily searched. My picture is on save safaris web site and on American hunting rifle but its there in a bunch of pictures. Its not like I am some recluse but at same time I have little desire to be a public figure cause someone found a picture of me and a dead lion. I don't want that to be my public identity - I don't want to have much of a public identity.

Some hunting activity - lions and elephants - is a social taboo. Like it or not that is reality. Posting 1000 pictures is not going to change that - it will only make it worse. I have been out with enough Zim PHs some of whom are regulars on AR socially in Dallas during DSC. We were at Cowboys Red River not exactly liberal hippie crowd and I was the designated driver (cheap bastards did not want to pay for cabs). They were very clear they did not want me to mention what they did for a living - they were all white Africans in the photo safari business.

Save does elephant culls - its very scientific with Oxford researchers ect. You think they will ever let any pictures get out of it?

If we want to fight to keep elephant and lion hunting legal - lets keep a low profile and get some serious conservation and wildlife management policy backing us.

For all the talk of wild conservation this hunt is probably at the bottom of list. It also shows how totally inept Zim parks is.

You have a hunt at national park being managed by Frankfort Zoological cause they have the ability to put money in cause Zim Parks is broke. The only reason Zim Parks has a survey of elephants is cause Frankfort zoo did it. Zim Park has not surveyed elephants and has no real scientific count of them - one of the main reasons for USFW ban on trophy imports.

Frankfort zoo is not too happy of elephants being shot at Park border - why they want to build a electric fence to keep animals in.

I doubt Frankfort zoo and Parks and Nixon all sat together and determined what quota to shoot. I don't think Frankfort zoo has much of a policy of park border hunting as being a offtake for some animals given they want to build a fence to keep it all in.

We can say it was all legal and all the paperwork was there but this is not really a model of sustainable hunting and harvesting rules.

Nothing at malapati falls into a model for hunting as wildlife conservation that one can rationally and logically argue with anyone - only fall back it was legal and all paperwork was there.

Good luck using this hunt to try and win the debate on how hunting is good for Africa's elephants.

Elephant picture should never have been put on facebook. It did not do much good for anyone involved.

Mike

Mike - I was so hoping you would make the claims you did in your first paragraph, cause honestly, I knew someone would. My friend, how wrong you are!

Lets see, you think hate mail is my biggest issue - are you serious? Yes of course, I get more than YOU would ever imagine - that I can promise you. But its goes a bit further than that my friend. Local police/FBI, have contacted us several times about the death threats and bounties placed on our heads as well as patrolling the house (ya, bounties on my girlfriend and her 16 year old son too). Private security camera installed at GF's house by police - without even asking us. Apparently they thought it was serious? Her job received thousands of emails, calls demanding her immediate termination. My sponsors (ie, EMPLOYERS) have received numerous letters, the latest claiming I am a wife beater and claiming they have proof (none ever produced of course) thus demanding my termination (potential job loss) my bank account has been hacked by anti's twice - luckily bank caught it both times (potential revenue loss) Love changing bank accounts weekly - don't you? Last week over a dozen antis hacked into my computer from around the world - law enforcement gave me super high tech contacts for these problems, but before I knew what was up this time they had deleted over 74,000 emails, completely wiped out my FB account, as well as instagram (all used a lot in my business obviously) I spent 7 hours online/phone with these computer geeks who were working with me on the problems, and I could go on! So ya, its a bit more complicated than you seem to think in my position - but still, I WILL NEVER RETREAT / NEVER SURRENDER! I will not go quietly into the night, but if others choose to do so, then so be it - I for one will not! Evil prevails, when good men do nothing! I might end up the loser, but not without putting up a struggle!

I am heading to dinner, so I'll have to answer your other points later. In the meantime, tell me again how what I get from the anti's really isn't a big deal?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Mike - I was so hoping you would make the claims you did in your first paragraph, cause honestly, I knew someone would. My friend, how wrong you are!

Lets see, you think hate mail is my biggest issue - are you serious? Yes of course, I get more than YOU would ever imagine - that I can promise you. But its goes a bit further than that my friend. Local police/FBI, have contacted us several times about the death threats and bounties placed on our heads as well as patrolling the house (ya, bounties on my girlfriend and her 16 year old son too). Private security camera installed at GF's house by police - without even asking us. Apparently they thought it was serious? Her job received thousands of emails, calls demanding her immediate termination. My sponsors (ie, EMPLOYERS) have received numerous letters, the latest claiming I am a wife beater and claiming they have proof (none ever produced of course) thus demanding my termination (potential job loss) my bank account has been hacked by anti's twice - luckily bank caught it both times (potential revenue loss) Love changing bank accounts weekly - don't you? Last week over a dozen antis hacked into my computer from around the world - law enforcement gave me super high tech contacts for these problems, but before I knew what was up this time they had deleted over 74,000 emails, completely wiped out my FB account, as well as instagram (all used a lot in my business obviously) I spent 7 hours online/phone with these computer geeks who were working with me on the problems, and I could go on! So ya, its a bit more complicated than you seem to think in my position - but still, I WILL NEVER RETREAT / NEVER SURRENDER! I will not go quietly into the night, but if others choose to do so, then so be it - I for one will not! Evil prevails, when good men do nothing! I might end up the loser, but not without putting up a struggle!

I am heading to dinner, so I'll have to answer your other points later. In the meantime, tell me again how what I get from the anti's really isn't a big deal?

Aaron sucks that is that got as bad for you are for as some CEOs of life science companies that do animal testing. I thought it would eventually get there but it has gotten there.

We can all take a very aggressive stance and post 1000s of hunting pictures on social media. It will help you in a way by creating more targets for anti but I don't think it would help hunting in general.

We have to realize that for the general public some animals are taboo - society has changed. We try and tell Chinese consumers don't consume shark fin, ivory , lion bones - it a way we are telling them and the general public some things are taboo. Tough then for general public to draw a line between legal hunting and animal products that are taboo. If we want to hunt we have to place hunting in a resource utilization and conservation framework that is real with scientific and economic data to back us up. Then hunt but keeping a lower profile. All the Republicans presidential candidates are going to grab a shotgun and shoot pheasants in Iowa. None will be seen gutting a deer - images matter. Why to general public a poached elephant and a trophy elephant look pretty damn similar - why I don't like plastering pictures of poached animals all over the web. The general public can't tell the difference.

Social media is blessing and curse. I think for hunting it is a curse. But look Eva Schockey has 919,616 followers - she is classified as a public figure. 919,616 followers has economic value but in a social media mechanism that lets you collect that many followers also lets you get a lot of people who don't like what you are doing. PETA has 3.5 mil. followers. Boddington at 4,814. Tim Herald at 5,000. I will bet you a fair bit of money that with 919,616 followers you will not see Eva Shockey holding the tail of a elephant anytime soon. Most of her followers don't care about elephants and she may lose followers.

Most of my FB algorithm derived friends to find are AR members and have profile pictures of them hunting - I may know them on AR handle but I don't know their real names. I don't think we draw a firestorm for personal pictures. But if we get in the public faces we will. It cost very little generate negative feedback in social media same as it takes very little to get positive feedback.

This whole elephant news story started cause it was put on facebook. If the picture was on AR no one would have cared. If we want to plaster the photo far and wide we better hope the audience will like the photo. Zim guides 2700 members, friends of mana pool 5700 members all saw the picture and said negative things. If we think we are going to get accolades from general social media crowd for killing the biggest elephant in 30 years we as hunters are clueless to how general public globally views the elephant killed.

Mike

Perhaps a 'Trophy Hunting for Conservation" Facebook page could be utilised. Members post a 'trophy' hunting shot with a short explanation of the conservation value of the exercise - even if it is just for meat utilisation. Dont engage the anti's on it - just let them spew their vile rantings.

Non hunting public are becoming sensitised to the word 'trophy', even some hunters have a problem with it. It is just a word that we use... it doesnt imply anything bad or negative. We can de-sensitise and educate - it is possible. As I have said before - dedicated hunters FAR outnumber dedicated anti-hunters.

The things we all face when "going public" with pictures are bad. It won't change. The "anti's" as you call them, worship the creation. It is their religion.
I have resisted for many years now the desire to post Pictures. Pictures change people. They move people. We can't control how and where they move. I just don't do it. Sadly, because I enjoy your hunting pictures and video's and you probably would have enjoyed some of mine. The cost is just too high.
Best regards,

I'm with Aaron
No more to say

All I can say is damn...what has the world come to.

I am pretty confident that if I mounted a strident in your face campaign of my hunting escapades and plastered all over the internet etc, the revenue stream that allows me to partake of these rather pricey events would quickly dry up.

So you tell me.

Jeff

The Illusions of Animal Rights by Russ Carmen, published in 1990, referred to the movement as a religion. The book is inexpensive, short and on point. Available on Amazon even. Pick up a copy, read and pass it on. Very well written, full of info on this "cult" of animal rights.

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
A. Who do you think pays the anti-poaching patrols most of the time? Answer: Hunting outfitters.

B. Social-media obsessed children do not the whole world make. Yes, they can have a very scary, ignorant impact. But it's not a majority. And it's certainly not the opinion of the indigenous people living in the area where the hunting takes place.

How arrogant for a bunch of bleeding-heart city dwellers in another country thousands of miles away to try to stop a means of income (and meat) that puts food in the native peoples' children's mouths.

Your naïve assumptions and exaggerations expose your youth, inexperience and lack of perspective.

Thanks. No one has called me young since I was 55. As it happens, I'm for hunting certain species to control overpopulating. Since elephants will be gone in a matter of decades I'm not a fan of anyone who kills them. The argument that big money helps local communities is probably true but it also encourages them to support trophy hunting instead of adopting other strategies. Which they'll have to do anyhow when those animals are gone.

Targetshootr,

If you are serious about ensuring that elephant are around for many decades to come, you need to reconsider your opposition to the regulated, quota-controlled hunting of elephant.

The biggest threat to the elephant is loss of habitat . . . and the biggest cause of loss of habitat is population growth and expansion. Between 1955 and 2012 the population in Africa quadrupled; between 1982 and 2012 the population doubled. It is estimated that by 2050 the population of Africa will double again from 1.1 billion to almost 2.5 billion. As the population grows, so does the footprint of that population on the map and the amount of land required to accommodate that population. Kenya, for example, is estimated to be losing approximately 8% of its habitat suitable for wildlife to agriculture every year.

So it is pretty clear that as the human population grows we have to find a solution to preserve habitat for the elephant. If we do not, we know who the winner will be in the inevitable conflicts between people and elephant . . . and it will not be the elephant. So how do we preserve habitat? Well the governments in Africa could set aside additional areas for parks and reserves. The problem is those governments are all broke and they do not have the money to support the infrastructure required to create, maintain and patrol even their existing parks and reserves. We can establish new photographic safari areas. That might work in limited cases but it will not work in large parts of Africa because the areas are simply not conducive to game viewing. Going to be hard to get a family excited about driving around in the jesse in Zimbabwe and seeing one or two animals, maybe, a day.

From my perspective the best hope for the elephant long term is controlled and regulated hunting. Why? For one, hunting pumps millions of dollars into the hands of concession holders and creates an incentive on their part to preserve habitat. Two, hunting ensures that someone, e.g., the concession owner and local community, have a vested interest in addressing poaching and ensuring that the elephant in the area are not poached. Three, hunting keeps people in the field, moving around, seeing what is going on and creates a natural disincentive to poachers. Four, elephant populations require regulation and control, without management elephant numbers increase to levels that destroy habitat not just for elephants but for browsers and grazers. Five, regulated hunting is just not in any way, shape or form a threat to elephant numbers, e.g., in Zimbabwe the elephant population is estimated at over 80,000 elephant, and the CITES approved off take number is for 1000 tusks (500 animals), about one-half of one percent if every CITES approved animal is taken. A wrinkle on an elephant to use a pun.

So, for me, I see hunting as one of the only effective measures to ensure that perhaps the grandest species of any animal continues to exist for many decades to come. On the other hand, if you have a better idea on how to preserve the species, by all means, chime in.

quote:

Originally posted by targetshootr:

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
A. Who do you think pays the anti-poaching patrols most of the time? Answer: Hunting outfitters.

B. Social-media obsessed children do not the whole world make. Yes, they can have a very scary, ignorant impact. But it's not a majority. And it's certainly not the opinion of the indigenous people living in the area where the hunting takes place.

How arrogant for a bunch of bleeding-heart city dwellers in another country thousands of miles away to try to stop a means of income (and meat) that puts food in the native peoples' children's mouths.

Your naïve assumptions and exaggerations expose your youth, inexperience and lack of perspective.

Thanks. No one has called me young since I was 55. As it happens, I'm for hunting certain species to control overpopulating. Since elephants will be gone in a matter of decades I'm not a fan of anyone who kills them. The argument that big money helps local communities is probably true but it also encourages them to support trophy hunting instead of adopting other strategies. Which they'll have to do anyhow when those animals are gone.

While it is true that elephant populations have been devastated throughout most of their range, Zimbabwe and Botswana have a severe overpopulation of elephants. It is interesting that you state, "I'm for hunting certain species to control overpopulating." because that is what is going on in Zimbabwe currently.

Zimbabwe had an elephant carrying capacity of 46,500 when the human population of the country was 7 million. Zimbabwe now has an elephant population of 80-100,000 elephants with a human population of apx. 14 million. The greater Hwange area had a carrying capacity of 2,500 elephants. With the drilling of additional bore holes that carrying capacity was increased to apx. 14,000. It now has an elephant population of around 40-50,000 elephants.

Have you ever walked a families field that has been trampled during the night by elephants that raided their farm that is 25 miles outside the national park. The family knows that they will rely on neighbors to get through the next year. What happens when over the next couple of weeks those neighbors farms are all devastated by elephants. There is a limit to what these families will put up with. Meat and trophy fees from hunters will help to a point. How difficult is it to put cyanide in a few mellons and leave them on an elephant path. Without Western trophy hunters, you will see a lot more reports of elephant poisoning going on in the future.

Botswana's elephant population is even worse. A "Tsavo" type event will probably happen without drastic intervention soon.


Since you have a specific opinion, what is your solution to the elephant situation in Zimbabwe?

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:
[
Have you ever walked a families field that has been trampled during the night by elephants that raided their farm that is 25 miles outside the national park. The family knows that they will rely on neighbors to get through the next year. What happens when over the next couple of weeks those neighbors farms are all devastated by elephants. There is a limit to what these families will put up with. Meat and trophy fees from hunters will help to a point. How difficult is it to put cyanide in a few mellons and leave them on an elephant path. Without Western trophy hunters, you will see a lot more reports of elephant poisoning going on in the future.

Right you are. I have been to Zim many times. In virtually every field, there is a structure built where people stay at night to help scare away the elephants.

My second elephant bull was taken because the elephant and his friend took exception to 2 men who tried to chase them out of the fields at night armed with nothing but a torch. The elephants killed them both. It was not a pretty sight nor one I care to see ever again in my life.

Without hunting, there is no reason for the people to tolerate the elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by targetshootr:

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
A. Who do you think pays the anti-poaching patrols most of the time? Answer: Hunting outfitters.

B. Social-media obsessed children do not the whole world make. Yes, they can have a very scary, ignorant impact. But it's not a majority. And it's certainly not the opinion of the indigenous people living in the area where the hunting takes place.

How arrogant for a bunch of bleeding-heart city dwellers in another country thousands of miles away to try to stop a means of income (and meat) that puts food in the native peoples' children's mouths.

Your naïve assumptions and exaggerations expose your youth, inexperience and lack of perspective.

Thanks. No one has called me young since I was 55. As it happens, I'm for hunting certain species to control overpopulating. Since elephants will be gone in a matter of decades I'm not a fan of anyone who kills them. The argument that big money helps local communities is probably true but it also encourages them to support trophy hunting instead of adopting other strategies. Which they'll have to do anyhow when those animals are gone.

We need to set a special link to a page with all the hunting conservation info that way we can refer these types of posters to the page and not have to waste energy explaining things over and over again.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by targetshootr:

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
A. Who do you think pays the anti-poaching patrols most of the time? Answer: Hunting outfitters.

B. Social-media obsessed children do not the whole world make. Yes, they can have a very scary, ignorant impact. But it's not a majority. And it's certainly not the opinion of the indigenous people living in the area where the hunting takes place.

How arrogant for a bunch of bleeding-heart city dwellers in another country thousands of miles away to try to stop a means of income (and meat) that puts food in the native peoples' children's mouths.

Your naïve assumptions and exaggerations expose your youth, inexperience and lack of perspective.

Thanks. No one has called me young since I was 55. As it happens, I'm for hunting certain species to control overpopulating. Since elephants will be gone in a matter of decades I'm not a fan of anyone who kills them. The argument that big money helps local communities is probably true but it also encourages them to support trophy hunting instead of adopting other strategies. Which they'll have to do anyhow when those animals are gone.

Could a person be a typical troll if he was a member of AR for over 12 years? Possibly, possibly not.

Could targetshootr be a part time hunter, firearms guy who doesn't know the specifics of the elephant problem? Could he be the typical individual we should be reaching out to and explaining our story?

Is he a troll? Possibly, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he responds from here.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by targetshootr:

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
A. Who do you think pays the anti-poaching patrols most of the time? Answer: Hunting outfitters.

B. Social-media obsessed children do not the whole world make. Yes, they can have a very scary, ignorant impact. But it's not a majority. And it's certainly not the opinion of the indigenous people living in the area where the hunting takes place.

How arrogant for a bunch of bleeding-heart city dwellers in another country thousands of miles away to try to stop a means of income (and meat) that puts food in the native peoples' children's mouths.

Your naïve assumptions and exaggerations expose your youth, inexperience and lack of perspective.

Thanks. No one has called me young since I was 55. As it happens, I'm for hunting certain species to control overpopulating. Since elephants will be gone in a matter of decades I'm not a fan of anyone who kills them. The argument that big money helps local communities is probably true but it also encourages them to support trophy hunting instead of adopting other strategies. Which they'll have to do anyhow when those animals are gone.

Could a person be a typical troll if he was a member of AR for over 12 years? Possibly, possibly not.

Could targetshootr be a part time hunter, firearms guy who doesn't know the specifics of the elephant problem? Could he be the typical individual we should be reaching out to and explaining our story?

Is he a troll? Possibly, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he responds from here.

Besides, on other threads it has been made clear that the media, anti-hunters, etc., monitor what goes on and what is said on this site . . . why not give them some substantive information to chew on. And it is abundantly clear that even other hunters do not understand the issues lion and elephant hunting pose for the sport more generally . . . at a minimum we should try to educate them. Or we can simply put our best foot forward and call them names and suggest that they are all idiots.

Given that "journalists" now apparently quote anonymous forum posts (as linked to in another thread), would anyone put it past anti-hunting groups (or even the publications doing the quoting) to plant posts that could then later be quoted? This is now not just a question of someone being a "troll"...it is a question of whether or not they have been strategically sent here.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Given that "journalists" now apparently quote anonymous forum posts (as linked to in another thread), would anyone put it past anti-hunting groups (or even the publications doing the quoting) to plant posts that could then later be quoted? This is now not just a question of someone being a "troll"...it is a question of whether or not they have been strategically sent here.

Sleeper Trolls....

Crazier things have happened.

Jeff

Sorry guys, but I don't believe this guy "targetshootr" is on the up and up. He's been a member since 2003, but has failed to join in the conservation conversation until now when this exceptional trophy bull has been taken? Only now does he jump in? He's had 12 + years to read all of the arguments concerning conservation through hunting in regards to elephants, and other iconic species and only now does he object to elephant hunting across the board?

I'd be much more willing to engage him in the discussion and provide education on the matter if he just signed up, having been drawn to this site by news of the big ele bull. Up until this thread, he's only participated in one other discussion back in 2012 concerning a botched double rifle.

There has been thread after thread regarding elephant hunting, elephant hunt reports with photo after photo, bulls and tuskless cows, even the spoof that Frostbit put up with the "150 pounder" I believe it was. Not a peep until now? As it stands, I'm calling BS. I'd simply direct him to the thousands of other threads on the matter and be done with him. Someone new, taking pot shots out of ignorance or a newbie genuinely wanting to learn about ele hunting and its conservation value, I'll engage anytime.

But that's just my take on it. YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:


Besides, on other threads it has been made clear that the media, anti-hunters, etc., monitor what goes on and what is said on this site . . . why not give them some substantive information to chew on. And it is abundantly clear that even other hunters do not understand the issues lion and elephant hunting pose for the sport more generally . . . at a minimum we should try to educate them. Or we can simply put our best foot forward and call them names and suggest that they are all idiots.

Do you think anti-hunters are interested in the truth and being educated??

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:


Besides, on other threads it has been made clear that the media, anti-hunters, etc., monitor what goes on and what is said on this site . . . why not give them some substantive information to chew on. And it is abundantly clear that even other hunters do not understand the issues lion and elephant hunting pose for the sport more generally . . . at a minimum we should try to educate them. Or we can simply put our best foot forward and call them names and suggest that they are all idiots.

Do you think anti-hunters are interested in the truth and being educated??

Hey Matt,

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one my friend. Although I question the motives of targetshootr's participation on this thread, I agree with Mike that attempting to educate the ignorant is a valuable endeavor. You can reach most of the "non-hunters" and on occasion, some of the anti's unless they have bought into the lie hook, line, and sinker.

That's why I stated I'd gladly engage someone who is new and here on a fact finding mission. But someone who's been here 12+ years ... I'm suspicious.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
We need to set a special link to a page with all the hunting conservation info that way we can refer these types of posters to the page and not have to waste energy explaining things over and over again.

That actually is not a bad idea George.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:


Besides, on other threads it has been made clear that the media, anti-hunters, etc., monitor what goes on and what is said on this site . . . why not give them some substantive information to chew on. And it is abundantly clear that even other hunters do not understand the issues lion and elephant hunting pose for the sport more generally . . . at a minimum we should try to educate them. Or we can simply put our best foot forward and call them names and suggest that they are all idiots.

Do you think anti-hunters are interested in the truth and being educated??

Many no, some yes. And I think there is a huge segment of the public that is basically undecided or ambivalent on hunting . . . they are not pro-hunting, nor are they anti-hunting. That is were we can hope to make progress on the educational and informational side. Seems like that has more prospects for success than name calling or trying to "desensitize" them with trophy pictures.

This is a media statement from Carl Knight in South-Africa that had booked the hunt:


Dear Hunting Friends



I hope this newsletter finds you well.

Some of you may know by now about this elephant bull that hit the world press and even made it onto CNN, some say that this bull is the biggest bull shot in Africa in the last 50 years, I can’t say for sure but I don’t remember any bigger bull being hunted in my life time. The international media has followed this story and attempted to turn this story into Cecil the elephant.

The international media and the beloved GREENIES from whom I have had numerous death threats since this bull was hunted with all due respect don’t know SHIT about conservation or African animals, they get emotional when they see a photo of a dead animal and thats all, they do nothing for conservation in most cases and could care less about the animals just as long as they aren’t being hunted. Hunters are true conservationists. I have never sold a hunt to a hunter that hunts because he or she hates animals, we all love animals, I have never sold a hunt to a hunter that would kill an animal to the detriment of the species, neither has any Outfitter or PH I know, in fact that hunter does not exist.

I have been repeatedly called by the world press about this elephant: USA, England, Germany, RSA you name it, all of whom wanting to sensationalise this hunt and drill us hunters, they wanted the name of the hunter so they could “name and shame him” I refused and still do refuse to name the hunter. The shame is theirs for their blatant ignorance and I know they are reading this. I had to take down my website for some days whilst this shit storm was going on. For the record my website and all photos on my site are copyright protected. We hunters are under attack...

Consider this isolated example Mr. Greenie: The Transfrontier Park incorporating the Gonarezhou National Park (where we hunt), the Mozambique National Park and the Kruger National Park have an accurate estimated elephant population of 40.000 elephants combined as the Transfrontier Park, we get +-30 elephant bulls on quota per annum shared between the 4 Gonarezhou hunting concessions spanning over 300.000 hectares, Mozambique and the Greater KNP (ANPR) I estimate get the same amount of elephant to hunt on quota per annum thats 90 bulls and only bulls that can be hunted from a population of 40.000 elephants how much damage do you think we are doing?

There are way too many elephants in the areas they exist, I am not saying that elephants are not under threat across Africa, perhaps higher in Africa where hunting was closed the elephant populations were hammered by poachers that moved in when the hunting companies pulled out and the hunting concession anti-poaching units stopped as a result, yes the Outfitters do the anti poaching in the hunting areas. Consider that in order for a poacher to get into a National Park to poach he would first have to get through the adjoining hunting concession, not easy whilst hunting Operators are on the ground, hunting Operators also keep Parks patrols under their watchful eye.

Now let’s be clear: I am no expert but I am rational, I GREW UP HERE in Southern Africa AND HAVE LIVED HERE ALL MY LIFE, rewind 30 years to when I was 12 years old visiting these areas with my father a hunter before me, Botswana was a forest, so was Hwange and the Gonarezhou so was the Kruger in fact they all had massive trees and huge amounts of tree flora to support the 25% of what we have now Southern African elephant population, fast forward to today and these areas are under huge pressure, the tress are all but gone, there is almost no baobabs left in the Gonarezhou, whats left is small shrubs and broken down trees that took hundreds if not thousands of years to grow, same in Hwange, KNP and Botswana now let’s fast forward another 30 years from today when we have 4 times as many elephants as we do today living in the same geographic area if not a smaller area as their roaming areas are diminishing due to human population, where will we be then? My opinion is the elephants will all be dead due to starvation and soil erosion if we leave them to destroy their habitat as they are, and with them all the smaller game, buffalo, lion, leopard etc also all dead or under threat and who shall we thank? The Greenies who in their armchair conservation wisdom and armchair journalism wisdom won’t let us cull OUR OWN animals or they withdraw investment to our National Parks etc.

You tell me who the killers are? For the most part the Greenies have never even been to Africa never mind seen an elephant, they don’t talk our language nor understand our culture. Yes I am perhaps getting too involved here but I have had personal death threats and threats against my family all week since this elephant was legally hunted, I have shut down my website and turned off my phone, all I have ever done is loved Africa and our animals same as you have my hunting friends.

To the press:
Did I book this elephant hunt? Yes
Do I regret that? No
Was I the PH? No that honour belongs to Nixon Dzingai
Will I tell you who the hunter was? Never
Do I think it can be done again? 110%

You say a bull like this has more tourism value than hunting value, that is bullshit he was a 55 to 60 year old bull the bottom jaw molars were all but worn down, he had spread his gene for the last 30 years, tusks like that don’t grow in 30 or 35 years if you think that they do then you better hit the books or better yet actually get out of your armchair and do some on the ground research. Parks entrance fee to try and view this bull is 10 USD per person a hunt like this cost 40.000 USD you do the maths, the Gonarezhou does not have that many visitors in a decade.

The bulk of the money 70% plus paid to hunt this bull and all other elephant bulls hunted in Zimbabwe and all other hunts in Zimbabwe goes to National Parks and “Campfire” community development projects for schools, roads, hospitals and compensation to the local villages whose maize, sugarcane and other crops get destroyed by these bulls year after year, the meat from the hunts gets eaten in every instance from tail to trunk. These are the facts and moreover I could care less if you Greenies and international press believe me or not.

I have always found it interesting that Greenies 99% of the time eat meat and enjoy the finer comforts like leather seats in their home, office and in their cars perhaps they feel those grew on trees? At the same time they think that their leather shoes, leather handbags and leather belts grew on trees? Allow us hunters to do the real work when it comes to conservation and provision of food for our family, without us that are prepared to kill to live you too would starve to death.

Anyhow that said I approach my career as a Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter as a person that loves animals and with the heart of a conservationist if that ever changes I will close my business and stop hunting on that day.

From my point of view I am happy to agree to disagree with the Greenies, you stay behind your desk and I will stay in the African bush.

Here are the photos of the bull our client from Europe hunted, the tusks weighed 122 and 120 pounds per side = a total tusk weight of 242 pounds. (Person in photo is camp manager)



Some “experts” will say this bull was pure luck and this can never be repeated, in my mind those same “experts” would have said this hunt was not possible in the first place. The truth is these big bulls are out there and they can be legally hunted, the place to do that is the Gonarezhou about that I have no doubt. The other place would be Kruger but that is not possible in RSA due to permit restrictions on tusk weight. If you think this will never happen again then I disagree with you, the Gonarezhou harvests massive elephant bulls every year this is the second 100 + pounder in the last 3 years, many in the 80 and 90 pound range are successfully hunted every year. If you want a chance at one of these trophy bulls then contact me for your booking.

On another recent hunt in the Gonarezhou a client of mine managed to hunt this very good tom leopard:



Also this 45 inch hard boss buffalo:



The same client who shot the leopard and buffalo also shot a very good kudu bull and this very good hippo bull:



Also on recent hunts since my last newsletter more South African clients booked their buffalo hunts in Zimbabwe, here are some photos of those RSA client hunts conducted between Matetsi and Gonarezhou with PH’s Simon Dzingai, Talmage Alexander and Stephen Meyer:



As you can see the late season buff hunts have been fantastic, the buff movement is really great at the moment in Matetsi and Gonarezhou, we do have late season dates open if you are planning a last minute booking.

I still have 2 elephant bull hunt permits left for the Gonarezhou for this year, please contact me if you are interested in booking.

As always thanks for taking the time to read my newsletters and share them with your hunting friends.

To all my German and Austrian clients please take a look at my recently updated and translated German website.


STATEMENT FROM ZIMBABWE PARKS AND WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY


TROPHY ELEPHANT WAS HUNTED IN MALIPATI SAFARI AREA NOT GONAREZHOU

On the 7th of October 2015, an adult male elephant was hunted as a trophy by a foreign client through a locally registered safari company in Malipati Safari area. The elephant had tusks weighing 55 and 54 kilogrammes respectively. Contrary to social media reports which are misleading alleging that the elephant in question was hunted in in Gonarezhou National Park. Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority further dismisses the report as false and malicious since Zimparks does not allow trophy hunting in a National Park.

In Zimbabwe hunting is legally permitted in the following land tenure categories, State safari areas and gazetted indigenous forests, in communal areas under the Communal Areas Management Programmes for indigenous Resources (CAMPFIRE) and on private land. Malipati Safari Area, is part of the Parks and Wildlife Estate, located in the south eastern part of the country and adjacent to Gonarezhou National Park. Currently, Malipati Safari Area is being leased out to the Chiredzi Rural District council under the CAMPFIRE arrangements where communities will benefit from revenue generated from wildlife based projects including hunting in the area. Such hunts go a long way in assisting communities in the surrounding area.

The elephant population of Gonarezhou-Malipati complex is estimated of 11 452 elephants from the 2014 aerial survey. Malipati safari area is allocated sustainable quota and hunting permit for all wildlife species including elephants on annual basis.

Zimbabwe subscribes to the principle of sustainable utilization of its natural resources, including consumptive and non-consumptive utilization of wildlife. Wildlife utilization programmes and projects generate revenue that is used to develop local community areas and contribute to the improvement of living standards of local communities that live with wildlife or adjacent to protected areas and to support conservation programmes.


Carl Knight
Contact Number: 0027-82-749-1747
Email: carl@takeaimsafaris.com
Web: www.takeaimsafaris.com








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by radimersky on 

Great Post!

Personally, if I just liked killing elephants, I would go after tuskless cows. If I was a trophy hunter, what better bull to take than this old, phenomenal, grand bull. You would be hard pressed to find a better representation of the species in today's hunting grounds.

Just outstanding!

Congratulations to the hunter. What a fine old bull! I wish it where me!



.

Fantastic post by The outfitter, agree 100%.

Suprised and disapointed by all The negative comments on this topic on a forum like this!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Sorry guys, but I don't believe this guy "targetshootr" is on the up and up. He's been a member since 2003, but has failed to join in the conservation conversation until now when this exceptional trophy bull has been taken? Only now does he jump in? He's had 12 + years to read all of the arguments concerning conservation through hunting in regards to elephants, and other iconic species and only now does he object to elephant hunting across the board?

I'd be much more willing to engage him in the discussion and provide education on the matter if he just signed up, having been drawn to this site by news of the big ele bull. Up until this thread, he's only participated in one other discussion back in 2012 concerning a botched double rifle.

There has been thread after thread regarding elephant hunting, elephant hunt reports with photo after photo, bulls and tuskless cows, even the spoof that Frostbit put up with the "150 pounder" I believe it was. Not a peep until now? As it stands, I'm calling BS. I'd simply direct him to the thousands of other threads on the matter and be done with him. Someone new, taking pot shots out of ignorance or a newbie genuinely wanting to learn about ele hunting and its conservation value, I'll engage anytime.

But that's just my take on it. YMMV

Todd, You may very well be correct.

I'm just willing to give targetshootr the benefit of the doubt.

Targetshootr, MJines made some great points in his post immediately following your post. If you are still out there and truly want to understand the elephant situation better but not on a public forum, feel free to PM me. I will not claim to be an expert. I'm just a guy who happens to love elephants, fauna, conservation, hunting and saw his first wild elephant some 50 years ago. I will be happy to try to explain the elephant paradigm the best I can.

Excellent post Carl
Thank you

As mentioned the 14th Wildlife Consultative Forum is being held in November - in essence this is the annual meeting between Wildlife Authorities and Hunting / Conservation Organizations of most Southern and east African countries .

There are major issues to be dealt with :

1) Canned Lion Killing
2) Hunting Collared or iconic Specimens

etc #

for this debate its about hunting of iconic or public specimens.

As hunters and ( conservationists ) we need to face the reality that the changing society has not been kept informed about the role of hunting in conservation. Why else - is there an outcry about Cecil and now the elephant.

People who influence politicians about hunting policy - are not against hunting when done responsibly !. But when public outcry about a Lion called Cecil and a Elephant with big tusks is deafening , they will tell you they cant defend the undefendable. We all know the average person would not know a 40 pounder from a 90 pound bull and have no idea what a 120 pound bull is - the anti hunting evangelists have just told them this is bad for elephant survival.

So until perception is changed then yes we do need to be carefull how we project hunting in public places = we dont have to be apologetic but we sure as hell have to be sensitive to mass emotion .

Bottom Line - SCI , DSC , and every other hunting club and assoc have dropped the ball , the general public have no clue to the conservation value of hunting , its time you , I and everybody else tell these clubs and assoc to channel their resources into public education and to enhance their publicity budgets.

This is a very good point. I have been saying this for a long time, that all these organizations preach to the Choir!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
As mentioned the 14th Wildlife Consultative Forum is being held in November - in essence this is the annual meeting between Wildlife Authorities and Hunting / Conservation Organizations of most Southern and east African countries .

There are major issues to be dealt with :

1) Canned Lion Killing
2) Hunting Collared or iconic Specimens

etc #

for this debate its about hunting of iconic or public specimens.

As hunters and ( conservationists ) we need to face the reality that the changing society has not been kept informed about the role of hunting in conservation. Why else - is there an outcry about Cecil and now the elephant.

People who influence politicians about hunting policy - are not against hunting when done responsibly !. But when public outcry about a Lion called Cecil and a Elephant with big tusks is deafening , they will tell you they cant defend the undefendable. We all know the average person would not know a 40 pounder from a 90 pound bull and have no idea what a 120 pound bull is - the anti hunting evangelists have just told them this is bad for elephant survival.

So until perception is changed then yes we do need to be carefull how we project hunting in public places = we dont have to be apologetic but we sure as hell have to be sensitive to mass emotion .

Bottom Line - SCI , DSC , and every other hunting club and assoc have dropped the ball , the general public have no clue to the conservation value of hunting , its time you , I and everybody else tell these clubs and assoc to channel their resources into public education and to enhance their publicity budgets.

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
This is a very good point. I have been saying this for a long time, that all these organizations preach to the Choir!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
As mentioned the 14th Wildlife Consultative Forum is being held in November - in essence this is the annual meeting between Wildlife Authorities and Hunting / Conservation Organizations of most Southern and east African countries .

There are major issues to be dealt with :

1) Canned Lion Killing
2) Hunting Collared or iconic Specimens

etc #

for this debate its about hunting of iconic or public specimens.

As hunters and ( conservationists ) we need to face the reality that the changing society has not been kept informed about the role of hunting in conservation. Why else - is there an outcry about Cecil and now the elephant.

People who influence politicians about hunting policy - are not against hunting when done responsibly !. But when public outcry about a Lion called Cecil and a Elephant with big tusks is deafening , they will tell you they cant defend the undefendable. We all know the average person would not know a 40 pounder from a 90 pound bull and have no idea what a 120 pound bull is - the anti hunting evangelists have just told them this is bad for elephant survival.

So until perception is changed then yes we do need to be carefull how we project hunting in public places = we dont have to be apologetic but we sure as hell have to be sensitive to mass emotion .

Bottom Line - SCI , DSC , and every other hunting club and assoc have dropped the ball , the general public have no clue to the conservation value of hunting , its time you , I and everybody else tell these clubs and assoc to channel their resources into public education and to enhance their publicity budgets.

In contrast, the NRA is currently running ads on major cable channels. They are well done and designed to appeal to the large segment of the public that is not staunchly pro- or anti-gun. Here is one that is particularly good:

NRA My Rights Television Spot