As a corollary to my post above, even when a tip is generally appropriate - whether to tip, and if so, how much - should and must vary according to the quality of service provided.

As a case in point from my own experience (although it was in Quebec, Canada rather than Africa), I did not tip my guide on a deer hunt. But I believe that if you're not going to tip, you need to make it clear why, so that you won't be mistaken for a run of the mill cheap bastard.

So, in that case, in order to avoid any confusion on my guide's part, I specifically told him that I was refusing to tip him, and why I was refusing - although I was pretty sure it would come as no surprise to him, given our just plain awful interactions during the hunt. I told him:

1. That I normally do tip, and often generously, but that he would get nothing from me.

2. That in case he hadn't figured it out yet, he was getting nothing from me because in my opinion he was lazy, incompetent and unethical. (There is a long story here that I will spare you from having to read.)

In that case I did, however, tip the cook and other camp personnel for their fine service. I gave them their tips in envelopes (which, BTW, I think is the best way to do it), shook their hands and thanked each of them while my erstwhile and by then thoroughly pissed off guide observed the entire scene.

Of course, he was so bad that I am sure he failed to get the point, but it wasn't for lack of trying on my part.

WoodrowS,

Too bad about your lousy experience and lousy PH. Try not to hold it against the next one who might be really excellent.

A PH in a setting like you hunted in in SA has an entirely different job than a PH hunting DG, I'd bet, without having been to your hunting camp in SA. And it can be both dangerous and difficult. Not many PH's gore by buff in SA, or stomped into strawberry jam by elephants, or torn to shreds by lion...

JPK

When he's using his vehicle and his crew and the miles are many and the hours long and he's a decent guy and a good PH--$100-$150/day. IMO.

I asked the Namibian farm owner (also a ph-but I did not hunt with him) about tips for a 7 day plains game hunt. I had been told by others that 10-15% was customary. The owner/ph said absoloutely not! He asked if I was satisfied with the ph and head tracker. I replied yes. He then advised to give them $100 each and $200 total for the rest of the staff. I questioned him and he said that he fed and clothed his employees and paid them well and that I should not pay any more. I felt like a cheap bastard but followed his instructions. I did leave a few hundred dollars for the local school.

mrlexma your first post was very well spoken.

From many of the above posts, you can see who has to scrimp and save for their safaris and those that don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
From many of the above posts, you can see who has to scrimp and save for their safaris and those that don't.

Maybe to some extent, but I don't think one can generalize quite so broadly.

Some of the best tippers I have ever known have been men of modest means, indeed, men whose livelihoods themselves have depended on tipping.

Waiters, doormen, maitre d's, cab drivers and other service providers appreciate a job well done more than most do, and in my experience, are willing to reward good service with a generous tip.

I don't know about everyone else, but I had to scrimp and save and am still trying to figure out how I'm going to pay for taxidermy- and how to pay for my next trip! My wife and I loved Namibia and enjoyed our stay with the Strauss family at Kowas immensely.

As long as we are striving to be gentlemanly and generous, I know of a PH in Zim whose client began by buying this PH a house in Harare and two new Cruisers. I hear it hasn't ended there.

Any other gentlemen out there?

I would love to work for some of you guys. It seems from the comments, that if I do a better than average job, keep you out of harms way, drive my own vehicle to haul you around, just to name a few. You'll provide a healthy tip on top of my pay check every month.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
It is a gentleman's duty to know whom to tip, when to tip and how much to tip.

On this subject, I will say only that a gentleman should and will tip his PH and his staff for a job well done.

Of course, gentlemen are so rare these days, that if they were game animals they would be listed on CITES Appendix I.

Not all gentlemen have the "excess" money to dump on someone and that deosn'e make them any less of a gentlemen. I think your statement is in very poor taste unless you are wealthy, then it does make a damn.

Most of the PH's I've hunted with were nice guys, and deserved more than I tipped them.

I have a few friends I take trips with NONE of us are high dollar earners. When we use a Guide or PH we plan into the trip cost of tip. Maybe someday we ( or one of us will not tip if we are treated poorly or have a very lazy guide) We did not make the rules that poeple in some jobs normaly recive tips but we do understand and accept that it is so. If someone has a job that they dont recive tips they can change there line of work or take a second job so they can recive tips. Complaining about feeling stongarmed into tipping makes no sense to me. If you dont want to tip DON'T GO !! if you don't like the rain stay inside. it is your choice. There are people who tip well are not rich and dont Bitch about it.

So, tipping as usual is a big debate.......and as usual many do not understand the broader picture of tipping, wages paid to PH's/guides.

Could one of the resident PH/Safari Company members please advise all of us of the average wages paid (along with the personal gear they must supply...ie. vehice, etc.) to PH's on say South African plains game hunts and DG hunts in Zimbabwe or Tanzania. I am talking about a PH working for a safari company not an owner(s) who is also a PH..........an employee PH if you will.

I am very familiar with the North American way things are done and many hunters are often shocked when they learn what the average guide wage is in different areas. Most of you would not work for the wages these guys get paid, especially considering the hours involved.

I am very curious to hear what the average wages are on the dark continent.

A rather tongue in cheek queston:

Some posts above rightly state that hunters are putting their safety into the hands of their PH's.
If one is injured by a game animal, is a tip still expected??!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Most of you would not work for the wages these guys get paid, especially considering the hours involved.

So here is another job opportunity for the illegal aliens?

Skyline,

I think you can find the answers to your questions in the long sting on Tipping from about a year ago [this seems to be an annual subject].

As I recall, the RSA Plains game PH's get paid about $100 per day out of the "Daily Rate". Sometimes, not always, the outfitters will provide or pay fuel costs in addition. The PH must provide, feed and pay his own trackers/skinners [at least 1, but often 2], he must also provide, and insure his own vehicle, which many outfitters specify as "New", Double Cab, with AC, in excellent condition. [a new Isuzu D/C cost +/- R300,000 or $42,000 this summer in PE]

This does not leave much 'profit" for the PH even if he is able to hunt 150 days in a season which is a very intense schedule, and considered a maximum I think.

So the tips are where his income is.

Les

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
It is a gentleman's duty to know whom to tip, when to tip and how much to tip.

On this subject, I will say only that a gentleman should and will tip his PH and his staff for a job well done.

Of course, gentlemen are so rare these days, that if they were game animals they would be listed on CITES Appendix I.

Not all gentlemen have the "excess" money to dump on someone and that deosn'e make them any less of a gentlemen. I think your statement is in very poor taste unless you are wealthy, then it does make a damn.

If you are planning to dine out, do you budget enough money for the tip?

The same budgeting logic applies to a safari - the tip, assuming good service, must be factored into the base price. It's not "excess" money except to the naive, the dull-witted or the cheapskate.

If one cannot afford the safari costs, including the tips, then one needs to find a less expensive safari.

Not everyone can afford everything. That's not poor taste. It's common sense.

I gotta second Mrlexma on his most recent post.

Your budget should include the apropriate tips for a good safari and good PH, good camp staf...And you should hope like hell that the safari works out so well that you want to exceed your budget for tips. If the hunt budget and all of the associated cost, like trophy fees, airfare, pre safari hotel, post safari hotel, etc, including reasonable tips, exceeds your means then you need to either wait and save some more $'s for the trip or cut back on the safari to ensure that the budget for total cost is within your means.

Its plain fourflushing to indulge yourself to the point that you are stiffing or shorting someone else, and worse yet to plan to do it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I gotta second Mrlexma on his most recent post.

Your budget should include the apropriate tips for a good safari and good PH, good camp staf...And you should hope like hell that the safari works out so well that you want to exceed your budget for tips. If the hunt budget and all of the associated cost, like trophy fees, airfare, pre safari hotel, post safari hotel, etc, including reasonable tips, exceeds your means then you need to either wait and save some more $'s for the trip or cut back on the safari to ensure that the budget for total cost is within your means.

Its plain fourflushing to indulge yourself to the point that you are stiffing or shorting someone else, and worse yet to plan to do it.

JPK

I agree entirely, plan your budget ahead and be prepared. Worst case, you do not tip do to poor service. Then you return home with some money in your pocket, hopefully for taxidermy.

I've often read here an axiom regarding African Safari's: "You get what you pay for". Following this logic, after paying what I consider a large sum of money to hunt in a prime area, I don't like to feel a tip is expected. I budget for a modest tip but I still reserve the right to decide if it's warranted at hunts end. I won't give it just because it's in my budget

10% of daily rates; not in my budget. Safaris go up in price every year for various reasons. Is that the PH's fault; no. Is it mine, no. The higher the cost of the safari, the smaller the tip hunters can give in relation. They've spent their money on just getting there. To suggest that we should take a lesser safari so we can give larger tips is totally F'n rediculous.

LHowell.........thanks that is what I expected to hear. It just confirms that the PH's depend on their tips as part of their income, much as North American guides do.

Will......illegal aliens? In Canada you have to be a Canadian resident to guide and in some cases a resident of the province....in Manitoba you even have to have resided in the province for a year and have proof of residency, outfitters can't hire a guide from another Canadian province......and many require you to write exams and have interviews with wildlife authorities and a criminal background check.

But the wages are close to those for illegal aliens.......lots are working for $80 - $100 a day and have short 12 - 18 hour work days.

quote:

Originally posted by Devildawg66:
465H&H, if a PH "Professional Hunter" is not being paid a livable wage by the Safari Company he works for, then he should move on to a better company or find some other line of work.

My doctor is a Professional, I don't tip him. I'm a Professional Engineer and have never gotten a tip for work I have done. If your truely a Professional you should be paid accordingly. Tips are for shoeshine boys, pretty bar maids, trackers and low paid camp staff. Just my 2 cents worth.

i tip my Dr. and some other professionals and i get better service and favors etc, its just a matter of kindness and there is nothing wrong with that, Its not awalls $$$ for example one of my Drs likes sports cars and was recently married so i let him take one of my Lamborghinis for the weekend-he had a great time and took lots of pics that he and his new bride will have for years to come.

In the case of my PH(Who is on a hunt with Saeed right now) We take a trip to Mexico or Hawaii when he comes to the States for SCI every year. I pay for almost everything and we have fun together, one time I bought him a Video camera. Its just a matter of being nice. What good is it to have something and not be able to share it with someone, thats what the PH's do for us when we hunt with them they share Africa with us.

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:Its just a matter of being nice. What good is it to have something and not be able to share it with someone, thats what the PH's do for us when we hunt with them they share Africa with us.

I agree 100% Eric! When my PH is here, I treat him like a king. He has invited me to come stay with his family in the off season and I'm sure he will do the same for me in return. Next year he will be sending his children to stay with us for a few weeks. I trusted him with my life, and he's trusting me with his children.

You can't buy friendships like that. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I CAN afford to leave a tip, and I am as generous as I can afford to be. It's money well spent.

DennisHP,

So you've paid for your hunt in a premium area, you are hunting in a premium area, so you are getting what you paid for. This is untterly unrelated to any tipping.

Paying premium $'s for a safari doesn't buy off appropriate tipping. You're paying a safari company a premium for the opportunity to hunt in what you feel is a premium area, your not paying the PH any premium and neither is the safari company.

If you can't afford both the premium trip and related cost, including an appropriate tip, then you can't afford the trip. If you can't afford the trip but plan it anyway, with the idea of stiffing the PH and staff, despite what their performance might be, you're a fourflushing turd and worse.

I do think that appropriate tipping stays the same in actual $'s, even as the price of the hunt goes up. Just because you are hunting in a premium area with a premium outfit doesn't mean your PH is working harder or doing more. This is a shortcoming of using some % of daily rate as a measure of a fair tip for a good PH.

JPK

JPK, Instead of dumping 20 grand into the local economy, feeding the locals, and offering the staff a measly tip, I'll cancel the trip stay home. Feel better?

Better that than be a cheap turd.

Best alternative, cut back a day or two of the trip and have enough to have a great safari and treat people how they should be treated, assuming of course they do their jobs well.

JPK

If I went by your previous post, it would be appropriate to tip a PH the same amount on a 5K PG hunt as a 20K buff hunt.

"I do think that appropriate tipping stays the same in actual $'s, even as the price of the hunt goes up. Just because you are hunting in a premium area with a premium outfit doesn't mean your PH is working harder or doing more"

So what one can get from all that was written is:

1. When you plan your hunt in Africa you should consider “gratitude†money as additional expense on your contract price since the contract price is a minimum one that keeps the business rolling and a PH is partly on his own. Eventually you may not tip but better find a good excuse and let everyone involved know it – be warned tho - you will be seen as an ass - because:
2. Tipps are expected - after all as a client you may as well be a pain in the a$$ and mighty buck is the cheapest way to straight that a bit.

If so - what is to come out of it should (or maybe not) bugger the clients - The $hit actually hits the fan when cliches in numbers like appropriate, decent and minimum bubble up. There is a lot of truth in Will`s: “Most of the PH's I've hunted with were nice guys, and deserved more than I tipped them.« Actually you cannot put a tag on the greater stuff, and sadly the whole hunting circus is going the way the hotels went long ago and things like a “Hotel bellman thoughts†are ringing there somewhere:

»Don't make the assumption that just because we're polite to you means that we like you. Its our job to suck up to schmucks like you because we works for tips. Nothing is worse than sucking up to real loser upon check-in, working your ass off, only to receive a ONE DOLLAR TIP! That will NOT help me make my Mortgage payment this month.«

– not always - but the ones that does not hear it yet, will soon be listed on CITES Appendix I, as well as gentlemen mentioned by mrlexma.

But at the end it is not their fault (and usually they are great guys) – obviously that is the way things are and if we want to play it we should adopt it – it is their dance now – shall we?

P.S. Still think that tipping is “dead†BTW.

Maybe the corollary to this question now ought to be a list from AR members of what they expect from their PH in order to determine the amount of the tip to be paid. Why don't we put together a list of what African hunters expect from their PH's, since there seems to be so many opinions on the issue of tipping and what may or may not be appropriate.

Here are some suggestions:

1. Be cordial with your client at all times. After all, you are in a service industry;

2. Spend as much time with your client during the hunt, including eating breakfast, lunch and dinner together, enjoying sundowners, discussing the hunt and the day etc.; Your client wants you to spend time with him, not off doing your own thing, unless it is absolutely necessary. Public Relations is key since your client is paying you to spend time with him, not by yourself or with someone else.

3. Be up front and realistic about the hunting expectations, and truthful about the area and the game;

4. Be totally honest-because if you are not, you will eventually be found out. Clients are not stupid. Especially those hunters who hunt Africa. They have been around the hunting horn and are experienced hunters by the time they have the opportunity to go to Africa.

5. All American hunters are not filthy rich with an endless supply of money. Realize that most hunters hunting Africa have literally saved for years or are spending hard earned savings to hunt Africa, and with limited time. Make the best of every hunting moment. They are not endless sources of financial funding, nor can most pop the bank for anything that comes along. Realize that the client will still have to pay for taxidermy, shipping, etc. after the hunt is over, and many will dig into savings to do so. Some will be required to spread that over years-that is why many do a dip, pack and ship back to the US.

6. Don't purchase anything for your client without his absolute approval first. I have had PH's order things for me, just based upon an inquiry only, without getting my final approval first. If you do that you may be stuck with something that you don't like and can't afford yourself.

7. Listen to the client and his wishes during the hunt. After all, he is paying you for the experience, not the other way around.

8. Don't whine about your financial status or how poor you feel you are. You made the choice to be a Professional Hunter, not the client.

9. Don't get angry or sullen at or get an attitude about the tip that you receive. Don't put your client on some guilt trip over a tip. Don't discuss prior tips given by other clients. Don't make your client angry about tipping or provide unrealistic expectations regarding the same. Be genuinely appreciative of the tip given and express it. Don't suddenly change your attitude about the hunt or the client after the tip has been received. Good or bad, it is noticed.

10. Your attitude about the hunt, your services rendered, and the client, should never be based upon the tip or the expected tip. You are there to do your very best. If you do, you will be rewarded as the client deems appropriate and he will send more business your way. If your attitude stinks then you can forget about future referrals. Clients and hunters talk. Once again, clients are not dumb. The majority of us can read you like a book whether you believe it or not.

11. Don't expect your client to buy and bring a whole sporting goods store with him when he comes to hunt. Realize that space and weight are as precious to the client in coming over, as they will also be in leaving and bringing some items back with him. You shouldn't expect him to fill a list for you and pay for excess baggage or weight in order to satisfy your desires. And, if he decides to leave something with you be appreciative, but don't expect it, or ask for it unless he discusses it with you first. Clients don't like to be put on the spot. They don't like be made to feel uncomfortable.

12. Don't expect at least the same tip as you received from the last hunt with that client if you have the same client hunt with you more than once. Don't assume that the tip will be more this time around just because he's coming back. One hunt, or its tip, has absolutely nothing to do with the next or the prior one, and there is no vested or guaranteed tipping, in my opinion.

Now, these are some of my thoughts. They are not meant to be offensive, but to let PH's know what some of us reasonably expect , just as they expect us to know how hard they work for us.

Face it, some clients are jerks and will be jerks no matter how hard you work. But don't turn a completely good client and hard working hunter into a jerk because of your attitude, lack of Public Relations or plain stupidity.

DennisHP,

To spell it out for the tipping impaired

PG hunt, tip what is appropriate for a good hunt and good service, adjusted up or down according to the level of effort put forth by - prefferably - each member of the staff. Meaning don't fall for the aggregated tips bull. A tip is personal, and should be given individually if at all possible. But I can see how a camp with more than two hunters might make tipping each individual a problem. I haven't been on a PG only hunt so I don't know what is appropriate, or what might be appropriate for different countries. But, imo, if a hunt is X days at, say, $300/day and another is, say $400/day the appropriate tipping should be the same.

DG hunt, tip what is appropriate...IMO, if the hunt is, say $850/day or $1250/day, the tip would remain the same. Exception to this would be when one hunt includes more DG. For instance, cat hunting inaddition to buff hunting. The cat hunting is hard work and is work and hours the PH will need to put in beyond a buff only hunt. In any event, this example shows the limits of the so called 10% theory.

As an aside, I get a kick out of the fellows who complain about tipping people they have never seen. Geez, the support staff may have little of no interaction with the hunter, but that makes their contribution no less real than if they interacted daily. Try walking around camp for a half hour, lots of people doing lots of things to make your trip a pleasant success.

I remember the first camp I was in. I was the only hunter and it was in Chewore, where there are no villages or residents except for the camp staff and the gamescouts. I saw six guys, other than the PH and Gov't game scout, until I shot my first elephant. Thirteen guys, eight of whom I'd never seen before showed up to help with recovery. Got me curious so I asked the function of each one. Of the eight I'd never met, two were trackers for a PH who were staying in camp while the PH was off, in town. The other six had various duties in camp. Thats eight camp staff making life great for me. Plus of course the PH, his two trackers and the game scout.

JPK

Use Enough Gun,

An excellent post...thank you.

Very interesting thread.
I've learned, that I'm a fourflushingturd, a cheapturd, a lowlife and other things I can't remember.
Here's my thoughts.
If the "tip" is published as part of the hunt price or otherwise expected, it isn't a "tip", it's part of the cost of the service. A "tip" is for services rendered, if your happy with the service and WANT to leave the tip.
IT'S EXTRA!
If I worked where I DEPENDED on tips to make a living, I'd go somewhere else. If an outfitter/owner, (what ever you want to call them,) hires a PH and tells him, you get $100 a day salary, and you make up the rest with tips, that's BullShit. The outfitter/owner is a cheap sumbitch and I would never hunt with them.
I've Guided for wages before and understand a little about what I speak.
A PH/Guide is a professional, not some waitress at the local beerjoint.

So TJ, you were never tipped as a guide? And you never appreciated it? Never looked at it as a reward for your hard effort?

There are proffesional waiters, Maitr'd, even real pro bartenders. They aren't working at the loacal beer joint either, and they are tipped as a matter of course.

I don't think publishing a guideline for whats appropriate, or normal, or common, given a good hunt with the required high effort and service, makes it a part of the cost of a trip, especially given the folks publishing the guidelines are asked that question repeatedly. It remains optional. But if you got the effort and the service and you don't tip, you are a cheapskate and a fourflushing turd!

Pretty simple really.

Hell, tipping, which leaves the client the discretion, is all in the favor of the client. It remains a motivator to those who need it, and a reminder, from time to time, that flagging effort goes unrewarded. Remove tipping, which would be quite inpossible, since myself and others will always reward unflagging effort, and the corresponding rate hike takes any reward or punishment from the hands of the hunter and transfers it too...no one. The outfitter isn't in your camp or on your hunt, it would be tough for him to provide merit pay safari by safari. But to the hunter, the only safari that counts is his, not the guy in camp last week when the PH was on the ball, or next week when the PH has had a chance to reenergize. No merit pay mechanism, no merit tipping, less merit, maybe no merit , at least on the one and only trip that counts - Yours.

JPK

I tip When I go to areas that tipping is norm.
Here in Australia tipping is not normal practice and in my trade once in a while you will recive a bottle of wine, Scotch or similar as thanks. When this happens you realy appreciate the thought and not expect it or need it to make a living.
I much prefer this and hope tipping does not make it here to the point where it is expected.
I some times wonder if this big tip thing is an ego thing?
ozhunter

ozhunter, has hit the nail on the head with his comment about tipping being an ego thing.

LV Eric, you don't live in the same world as I do. I never owned a Lamborghinis, nor have I ever been able to take people on trips and pick up their expenses. With the amount of money you obviously have, or want us to believe you have, hell yes it's easy to throw it around like confetti.

Us plain old common folk who have to save for half a lifetime to go on a $20,000 hunt, consider tipping a serious matter. But you can be sure of one thing, when the common working man leaves a tip, it's from his heart and not some ego trip or plan to obtain favors in the future.

I really don't understand the controversy, particularly the somewhat personal attacks.

I think that one should budget a tip when saving/planning a safari. If service sucks or if the PH refuses, take home the bucks. If service so deserves, then tip accordingly. I don't think your personal worth should have anything to do with the amount of the tip. If you can't afford a tip, save a bit more or save a bit longer.

The stuff that LVEric does is above and beyond what is expected, of course, but his PH's know whether he is being a rich show-off or just sharing his good fortune (and from what I know of the fellow, it's the latter... and I've never been lent his car ).

PH's are just people. They are going to get particularly close to some clients, suffer others and avoid a few, too. Tipping (or the lack of the same) will figure in that matrix somewhere. How could it not?

Heck, when all else fails, just ask the guy what he feels about it before you go. If the question gets his panties in a wad, maybe you don't need to deal with him. I've never been upset when a client asked me why my fee was X@hour or if I could cut the fee some. Why should I?

You don't HAVE to hunt anywhere or with any particular PH. The worse scenario is that you upset someone and you go somewhere else.... BFD

Tipping isn't an ego thing, in general, imo. It just rewarding someone for good or better effort.

From what I've been told by folks who have worked in jobs where tipping is the normal course of business, the tippers were ordinary folks for whom the individual provided great service and a good time; the worst were those who were flashy and demanding, ie the ones with the big egos.

JPK

From my forum name, you know what I do...and professors don't get paid as well as some may think. Saying that, my hunting partner and I come prepared to tip. Whether we do or not, and the amount, is based upon the service we receive.

We hunt in Quebec every other year and try to get the same guide. Why? Service is great! We do tip an adequate amount. Some tip more than we do, but the staff know we are tipping because of their performance and appreciate it. The outfitter attends the Denver Intl Sportsmen's Expo every year and we try to take him out to dinner one night. Our way of saying thanks

We have hunted in other areas where the service was basic, attitudes were just that, and our thoughts were never to use that outfitter again. The "tip" was commensurate. We also let them know why.

Although some may consider tipping mandatory, I see it as a way to say thank you for a job well done.

I'd rather be tipping impaired, fourflushing, and all the other tags JPK has thrown out then a condesending ass-hole.