Didn't book anything. Seems like prices go up even in bad economy, so for regular guy like me is to wait for bargains later on this year. Maybe everyone should do it just to show African operators that we can stand up against ever inreasing prices. I understand supply and demand, but there is limit to everything.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Edited: Why does the full back page or the full inside cover advertisement in a prime outdoor magazine, or any magazine for that matter, cost more than a 1/4 page black and white add buried in the classified section?

And how does the magazine price its advertising, you pay based on where you want your ad to appear and how big the ad will be. A person can elect to pay the freight or not based on the value they place on the ad given the advertising rates charged to any vendor wishing to run an ad. Why wouldn't a convention work the same way? Want a booth that is 10x12 in location X, here is the price, want a booth that is 10x24 in location Y here is the price, etc. Why inject something as subjective as donated hunts and merchandise into the process, all it does is make the process less transparent. My guess is that vendors would have far less objection to a rate schedule for booth size and location that is transparent and equally applied across all vendors than they do to the current process that seems to be more than a bit opaque.

Frankly, I don't see the difference in your example. Anyone who objects is free to stay at home. Someone else will gladly take their place.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Didn't book anything. Seems like prices go up even in bad economy, so for regular guy like me is to wait for bargains later on this year. Maybe everyone should do it just to show African operators that we can stand up against ever inreasing prices. I understand supply and demand, but there is limit to everything.

A great plan I may implement after retirement. Right now I can not get time away from work without much pre-planning.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Edited: Why does the full back page or the full inside cover advertisement in a prime outdoor magazine, or any magazine for that matter, cost more than a 1/4 page black and white add buried in the classified section?

And how does the magazine price its advertising, you pay based on where you want your ad to appear and how big the ad will be. A person can elect to pay the freight or not based on the value they place on the ad given the advertising rates charged to any vendor wishing to run an ad. Why wouldn't a convention work the same way? Want a booth that is 10x12 in location X, here is the price, want a booth that is 10x24 in location Y here is the price, etc. Why inject something as subjective as donated hunts and merchandise into the process, all it does is make the process less transparent. My guess is that vendors would have far less objection to a rate schedule for booth size and location that is transparent and equally applied across all vendors than they do to the current process that seems to be more than a bit opaque.

Frankly, I don't see the difference in your example. Anyone who objects is free to stay at home. Someone else will gladly take their place.

It is the difference between a transparent and objective pricing measure and an opaque and subjective pricing scheme. Has nothing to do with whether someone objects or decides to stay home.

Besides, if a significant number of the vendors seem to unlike the current arrangement, why wouldn't SCI be open to changing it?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Edited: Why does the full back page or the full inside cover advertisement in a prime outdoor magazine, or any magazine for that matter, cost more than a 1/4 page black and white add buried in the classified section?

And how does the magazine price its advertising, you pay based on where you want your ad to appear and how big the ad will be. A person can elect to pay the freight or not based on the value they place on the ad given the advertising rates charged to any vendor wishing to run an ad. Why wouldn't a convention work the same way? Want a booth that is 10x12 in location X, here is the price, want a booth that is 10x24 in location Y here is the price, etc. Why inject something as subjective as donated hunts and merchandise into the process, all it does is make the process less transparent. My guess is that vendors would have far less objection to a rate schedule for booth size and location that is transparent and equally applied across all vendors than they do to the current process that seems to be more than a bit opaque.

Frankly, I don't see the difference in your example. Anyone who objects is free to stay at home. Someone else will gladly take their place.

It is the difference between a transparent and objective pricing measure and an opaque and subjective pricing scheme. Has nothing to do with whether someone objects or decides to stay home.

Besides, if a significant number of the vendors seem to unlike the current arrangement, why wouldn't SCI be open to changing it?

Then personally get involved and make a difference.

I joined the local board this year. No need to get testy.

OK to get back on topic, I booked a grizzly bear hunt for may 2013,a 21 day zim hunt for july of 2013 and a greenland hunt for 2014. I had a splendid time ate too much ,drank a little, did a small amount of gambling and enjoyed time with friends and past guides! I enjoyed Reno buit look forward to vegas. I took time to thank the people from the NRA for being there.

Todd,
Thanks for all your input on this one. Your posts were logical, rational, and stated well. If you need to solicit a donation for the carpal tunnel surgery,(or surgeries), to repair the damage done by spending too long at the keyboard, count me in. There is another reason to belong to an organization that one does not fully agree with--power. Politics is always a numbers game. A small organization is more easily ignored by pols than a large one. I have been a member of the NRA State affiliate here in California for many years, and up until recently, have nothing but disdain for their "good ol' boys" network. Having said that, it is obvious to all of us that hunting and gun rights are a tough sell here in the "Golden State", and membership numbers do count.
As you pointed out, SCI does a lot of legislative work inside the Beltway, and office space and staff costs there are huge. The overriding mission of SCI is defending hunters' rights--not participating in Humanitarian issues or conservation projects in Africa. Their CITES and UN NGO presence come with a hefty price tag. The $250K bankrolling of the Woodland Caribou study in Newfoundland isn't chump change either. If folks here really want to know where the money goes, read the SCI publications, or better yet, run for a position in the organization! There is still a great deal of truth in the old saw from the '60s: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!"
Cheers,
Tim

Yes, to get back on topic, I bought five Arno Bernard knives, confirmed two hunts for 2013 and 2014, signed up my three sons as life members of the NRA, bought some books, re-upped my Sports Afield subscription, bought some artwork, some jewelry for my wife and me, attended the Wildlife CLE and watched the USFWS attorney make an ass of herself both during and after her presentation, ate some great food, considering putting money down on another MG Arms Ultralight, talked with Butch Searcy about business issues, picked up two of my four custom gun belts from Chris at Heym and put in another order, bought some other miscellaneous items, and did all of this from the comfort, safety and convenience of my manual push wheelchair!

I didn’t go to the SCI Convention, but somehow still managed to book a hunt for 2013!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Besides, if a significant number of the vendors seem to unlike the current arrangement, why wouldn't SCI be open to changing it?

Because we buy it. That's why. We want to be there. When SCI stops being a great market, people will stop donating, stop buying the booths.

Despite what your, or my, personal feelings are toward SCI, their politics or conservation plans, we, as exhibitors choose to exhibit because that's where the money has been made for a long time.

Now we see for the first time ever that DSC was a better show for most guys who have spoken up. When SCI looses its appeal, it will no longer command the higher exhibitor fees.

Very simple economics. SCI has put the clients in front of our booth. Now DSC is doing the same thing.

This, of course, has nothing to do with my own personal feelings about SCI. It's simply a objective view of how marketing works in this industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
I didn’t go to the SCI Convention, but somehow still managed to book a hunt for 2013!

Say it ain't so Bill!

UEG - Wow you were one busy Dude. No wonder I never ran across you. Glad you had a great Show. For the naysayers, this Show is what each individual attendee makes it,excellent, good, fair or poor. Your choice!! My experience was Excellent. Didn't book anything but got enough details ironed out to most likely proceed with 5 to 10 days in Namibia followed by 30 days in Mozambique. It's up to Travel Agents, PH schedules and my schedule to put it all together in the next few weeks.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Yes, to get back on topic, I bought five Arno Bernard knives, confirmed two hunts for 2013 and 2014, signed up my three sons as life members of the NRA, bought some books, re-upped my Sports Afield subscription, bought some artwork, some jewelry for my wife and me, attended the Wildlife CLE and watched the USFWS attorney make an ass of herself both during and after her presentation, ate some great food, considering putting money down on another MG Arms Ultralight, talked with Butch Searcy about business issues, picked up two of my four custom gun belts from Chris at Heym and put in another order, bought some other miscellaneous items, and did all of this from the comfort, safety and convenience of my manual push wheelchair!

Good for you Larry! Yes, I, like you, really don't care what the naysayers say or do. I thoroughly enjoyed the show and will enjoy it when it comes back down to Vegas next year! Naysayers be damned!

Todd - Great posts with excellent and accurate explanations. Please consider filing these away because you will need them this time next year. The same ole people will be back asking and whining about this subject in twelve months. It's an annual thing with them you know!! Thanks again.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I find that attending SCI has evolved a bit for me personally. I think Joyce would admit the same for her as well.

When we first attended 4 years ago it was a magic trip to the circus. We only have 1 ½ days we can attend. Joyce went along at first reluctantly thinking it would be nothing but a bunch of hunting booths and she would be bored. Took me an hour to get her out of the foyer that held furniture, clothing, jewelry, and a beautiful hand crafted canoe on the way into the “show”. Then there were the gasps over the taxidermy, the people watching, and to a degree for her, feeding off my excitement about booking our first trip.

For us this year we had a plan. We wanted to talk with Derek Littleton in person before booking. I had already researched other options and Derek led the pack. I don’t book locations, animals, or even outfitters. I book specific PH’s. I know what hunting means to me and I want someone who feels the same. Derek will be just fine as a hunting partner.

We now have friends in the hunting industry and SCI is a chance to get together with them. I found this year to be a mixed blessing with the attendance being down. A lot of our first day was spent with friends and not “taking care of business”. That was fine because day two we were able to finish up with Derek and left plenty of time for me to meet with some Zim PH’s I have considered for Elephant in 2015.
The low attendance allowed Joyce, Buzz, Myles, and I to actually sit and chat relaxed without four rows deep at the booth vying for their time. I’m sure they would rather have been busier but selfishly for us that time was valuable.

Same goes for Tierry Labat and Zambezi Hunters.

By the time we fly down from Alaska this is no cheap trip. Was it worth it? I’d say so.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Since the donation has more value than what the donor has in it, and you can write it off on your taxes as a business expense, you would be pretty foolish to give $600 extra (and I am not sure that is the actual amount) instead of donating something you have $300 in, and recoup the other $300 as a tax write off.

I am a bit miffed how one can donate something he/she has "X" dollars in and then claim "2X" for a tax deduction. You can't deduct services donated to a non-profit - only goods and materials.

And even if you are just "writing it off" expenses ultimately have to show up somewhere on your bank account.

Be interesting to get Larry Shores opinion. I often wonder why the value of these hunts are always more than the market rate.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Edited: Why does the full back page or the full inside cover advertisement in a prime outdoor magazine, or any magazine for that matter, cost more than a 1/4 page black and white add buried in the classified section?

And how does the magazine price its advertising, you pay based on where you want your ad to appear and how big the ad will be. A person can elect to pay the freight or not based on the value they place on the ad given the advertising rates charged to any vendor wishing to run an ad. Why wouldn't a convention work the same way? Want a booth that is 10x12 in location X, here is the price, want a booth that is 10x24 in location Y here is the price, etc. Why inject something as subjective as donated hunts and merchandise into the process, all it does is make the process less transparent. My guess is that vendors would have far less objection to a rate schedule for booth size and location that is transparent and equally applied across all vendors than they do to the current process that seems to be more than a bit opaque.

As has been stated dozens of times on here - the booth placement is transparent and objective. There are only two prices for different booth spaces - regular and premium. A company that has not contributed as much as my company cannot displace me in my booth selection - cant be more fairer than that!!!

Every year people who have no idea about the SCI convention system come on here and complain about it - I don't get it??

Yes there are faults... but booth placement is not one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Edited: Why does the full back page or the full inside cover advertisement in a prime outdoor magazine, or any magazine for that matter, cost more than a 1/4 page black and white add buried in the classified section?

And how does the magazine price its advertising, you pay based on where you want your ad to appear and how big the ad will be. A person can elect to pay the freight or not based on the value they place on the ad given the advertising rates charged to any vendor wishing to run an ad. Why wouldn't a convention work the same way? Want a booth that is 10x12 in location X, here is the price, want a booth that is 10x24 in location Y here is the price, etc. Why inject something as subjective as donated hunts and merchandise into the process, all it does is make the process less transparent. My guess is that vendors would have far less objection to a rate schedule for booth size and location that is transparent and equally applied across all vendors than they do to the current process that seems to be more than a bit opaque.

As has been stated dozens of times on here - the booth placement is transparent and objective. There are only two prices for different booth spaces - regular and premium. A company that has not contributed as much as my company cannot displace me in my booth selection - cant be more fairer than that!!!

Every year people who have no idea about the SCI convention system come on here and complain about it - I don't get it??

Yes there are faults... but booth placement is not one of them.

I agree that the donation thing does limit transparency, the same way a hunt donated to an outdoor communicator (writer/TV personality) either in whole or in part obscures the true demand for a hunt (ever done that Matt?).

Also, in the name of transparency, I would like to know if any SCI staff member goes on gratis hunts either by way of "donation" or by paying with SCI dollars from membership dues.

I am an SCI member. I don't believe they are "evil" but I am also disappointed some of the ethics issues we see are not elevated.

Who determines the value of your contribution/donation?

I am a Life Member of SCI. They have a great reputation for being THE organization for big gme hunters and have a great reputation for conservation.

SCI's biggest problem as I see it is that SCI does not think it has a problem. The national organization is run like a good old boys network. And the decisions made at the natinal level reflect those self interests.

You can only trade on your reputation for so long. The US car industry followed that thought process and were ahocked when foreign makers blew past them in sales.

I know how hard guys at the chapter level work, but there is a world of difference between chapter and national.

Not trying to pick on anyone here, but statements like this:

quote:

quote:

Anyone who objects is free to stay at home. Someone else will gladly take their place.

Reflect an organization that believes its own press and that is in deep denial.

One of these days, there will not be a someone else to rely on.

Is SCI were a publicly traded company, I would be shorting their stock right now. Resting on one's laurels is is very bad business.

Well, I certainly like Vegas better - but I can't say Reno was not productive! I hope to see Vegas as the permanent home for SCI, that's for sure.

I've long since given up my hopes that SCI will care about the exhibitor/individual, etc. I go there to do business, and forget about all the rest.

On a side note - I gave a deposit on a 2014 Stone Sheep hunt, so I'm looking forward to that one.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
As has been stated dozens of times on here - the booth placement is transparent and objective. There are only two yprices for different booth spaces - regular and premium. A company that has not contributed as much as my company cannot displace me in my booth selection - cant be more fairer than that!!!

Every year people who have no idea about the SCI convention system come on here and complain about it - I don't get it??

Yes there are faults... but booth placement is not one of them.

I agree that the donation thing does limit transparency, the same way a hunt donated to an outdoor communicator (writer/TV personality) either in whole or in part obscures the true demand for a hunt (ever done that Matt?).

Also, in the name of transparency, I would like to know if any SCI staff member goes on gratis hunts either by way of "donation" or by paying with SCI dollars from membership dues.

I am an SCI member. I don't believe they are "evil" but I am also disappointed some of the ethics issues we see are not elevated.

when I said 'contribute' I did not mean donations alone. The rankings system takes into account all historical paymets made to SCI - booths, advertising, donations etc.
Mike the vendor determines the value, signed off on a contract at 'fair market price' . Obviously some slip through the cracks but I know that all convention staff want to know about shady or unfair practices like this. Inflated prices can be used to climb the vendor rankings ladder faster.

Mike,

To my understanding, the individual exhibitor establishes the hunt value. That is the issue that Buzz had (among other things) with the guy valuing his Zim leopard / PG hunt at $66,000 to get a better space. That one should have been addressed but unfortunately, was not. Incidences of that nature are legitimate problems that need correcting.

Jim,

You took my comment out of context. That was not my opening statement but rather a response after prolonged discussion where the other parties continued to gripe about the way things are currently set up WITHOUT OFFERING TO PERSONALLY GET INVOLVED and make changes.

Just my two cents worth

I have not been to SCI in 5 years, and I must agree with Buzz, the show seemed slow, and I think whilst Dangerous Game safaris are selling well, plainsgame safaris are in the tank.

Russ

Larry: ! So true!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Who determines the value of your contribution/donation?

The amount it sells for. The guy who jacked up the cost of his donation was probably trying to get it to go for more than market value that's all. He didn't get credit for a $60,000 donation. He will get credit for the amount it brought at auction.

My wife and I attended all 4 days of the show. It was a great show and we enjoyed every minute of it. We met lots of old friends and some new ones.

As a small business owner it seems fairly simple to me. If I was an outfitter, hunting broker, jewelry company, jerky salesman etc - I would display if it made economic sense. If it didn't - then I would not.

I booked a lion hunt.



Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
SO THERE IS A RATIONAL/GOOD EXPLANATION FOR A "COMPULSORY" DONATION?? i thought compulsory and donation were mutually exclusive terms. can't wait to be enlightened. and how is it that DSC doesn't seem to need a "compulsory" donation to stay in business?? fewer officer perks??

I'm not sure how much simpler it could be. Exhibitors display their wares and services at the SCI show as a form of advertisement for their company. To the best of my knowledge, most all forms of advertisement requires payment; just as if you were putting an advertisement in Sports Afield or Outdoor Life, etc. So, if you want a booth to advertise your business, you have to pay for the space and exposure. SCI must pay the convention center for the space it provides to the exhibitors, therefore charges the exhibitors in turn, and the intent is to make a profit to support the SCI mission. SCI would rather have a donation than outright cash because the auctions are one of the main draws to get people to come to the show. It really wouldn't be much of an entertaining auction if you were biding on cash paid by the vendors instead of a hunt, rifle, jewelry, etc. and there would be no way for SCI to raise funds in the process. For instance, if all the exhibitors just paid $600 instead of donating hunts, every item on the auction program would be the chance to bid on, well ... $600!

So the real question is, as a vendor, does the donation given inorder to exhibit at the show, generate enough business to be a sound advertising investment? If it doesn't, I wouldn't participate. If it does, I would. It's that simple. Just a business decision as to participate or not. No one forces any business to attend the show. But if you want the exposure and direct, concentrated access to the people who are motivated and financially capable of purchasing an expensive safari, rifle, jewelry, etc, it just doesn't happen for free.

Todd,

exhibitors are already paying for the space they use.

Why require them to "donate" something?

damn good question, Saeed!. DCS doesn't require a "donation" and they seem to be doing quite well. according to the dictionary, a donation is something you give freely without coercion- certainly not something you are forced to give.

I had a great time Reno, but Vegas is a much better venue and I look forward to it next year. The fact is I would have a great time wherever the show was as I get to see old friends, look at/buy rifles, and confirm current hunts and book future hunts.

I am not an SCI political guy, but SCI is the 800 pound gorilla that protects our rights as hunters. It was amazing to see the organization raise over a million dollars on Saturday night to protect our rights to hunt lion in the future. You can't make everyone happy, but until there is an organization that does a better job with more influence to protect our hunting rights, I will continue to support SCI. In the end it is a business and they put out a great product. It's a big boys toy store and I love it.

I had a great show:

1. Confirmed my rifle stock fitting in my Joe Smithson 300HH. It should be here in May for an upcoming safari.
2. Checked on the status of my Hartmann and Weiss 375HH that I ordered last year at SCI Vegas. It should be here in April for my upcoming BVC safari.
3. Ordered a Hartmann and Weiss 416 Rigby. I think they make the greatest rifles on the planet and they won't be around forever.
4. Confirmed the upcoming lion/leopard safari w Shaun Buffee in the BVC in June.
5. Purchased an auction hunt with Muchinga in Zambia for this October for sitatunga, sable, roan, lechwes and other PG.
6. Booked a February LDE hunt to Cameroon with Chelet.
7. Booked a Mongolian Hangay Argali hunt with Caprinae.
8. Spoke to Russo about a Mtn Nyala hunt for 15 in Ethiopia.

I did as much damage as I could and had a great time. The show isgreat, but seeing the friends that you make over the years make the show that much better.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Who determines the value of your contribution/donation?

The amount it sells for. The guy who jacked up the cost of his donation was probably trying to get it to go for more than market value that's all. He didn't get credit for a $60,000 donation. He will get credit for the amount it brought at auction.

You sure about that??

quote:

Originally posted by RichP470:
I had a great time Reno, but Vegas is a much better venue and I look forward to it next year. The fact is I would have a great time wherever the show was as I get to see old friends, look at/buy rifles, and confirm current hunts and book future hunts.

I am not an SCI political guy, but SCI is the 800 pound gorilla that protects our rights as hunters. It was amazing to see the organization raise over a million dollars on Saturday night to protect our rights to hunt lion in the future. You can't make everyone happy, but until there is an organization that does a better job with more influence to protect our hunting rights, I will continue to support SCI. In the end it is a business and they put out a great product. It's a big boys toy store and I love it.

I had a great show:

1. Confirmed my rifle stock fitting in my Joe Smithson 300HH. It should be here in May for an upcoming safari.
2. Checked on the status of my Hartmann and Weiss 375HH that I ordered last year at SCI Vegas. It should be here in April for my upcoming BVC safari.
3. Ordered a Hartmann and Weiss 416 Rigby. I think they make the greatest rifles on the planet and they won't be around forever.
4. Confirmed the upcoming lion/leopard safari w Shaun Buffee in the BVC in June.
5. Purchased an auction hunt with Muchinga in Zambia for this October for sitatunga, sable, roan, lechwes and other PG.
6. Booked a February LDE hunt to Cameroon with Chelet.
7. Booked a Mongolian Hangay Argali hunt with Caprinae.
8. Spoke to Russo about a Mtn Nyala hunt for 15 in Ethiopia.

I did as much damage as I could and had a great time. The show isgreat, but seeing the friends that you make over the years make the show that much better.

Bloody hell RichP470 what do you do for a living?

quote:

Bloody hell RichP470 what do you do for a living?

I heard he was a retired ph from Zambia!

Good for Rich.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

Bloody hell RichP470 what do you do for a living?

I heard he was a retired ph from Zambia!

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

Bloody hell RichP470 what do you do for a living?

I heard he was a retired ph from Zambia!

now if i could just win the lottery too....

Being a small business owner in construction has allowed me some great opportunities and I don't plan on slowing down anytime soon. A little luck and hard work has paid off.

Yowzer RICHP470!!
I'm also a small business owner and need to hire you to run my business. I'd settle for just one of those hunts!!!!!!!!!!!!
JCHB

quote:

Originally posted by RichP470:
Being a small business owner in construction has allowed me some great opportunities and I don't plan on slowing down anytime soon. A little luck and hard work has paid off.

Speaking of not slowing down . . . how many boxes of 20ga can you shoot in one day?

I guess I forgot about Argentina later this month! Lets say I don't plan on setting any records. The pool, cigars, and cocktails look pretty nice.