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One of Us |
Damn, by the looks of those pictures you were incredibly fortunate. Regardless of what went wrong, someone was looking after you for sure. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Really? Just a short 4 years ago my neighbor had his Sako A in 7STW blow up in his face on a mule deer hunt we were at. Sako made him send in what was left of the rifle/action and ammo. It was determined that a small batch of rifles had a metallurgical problem. My neighbor didn't sue, as that's not his style. He did gete a new Sako and Mcmillan stock out of it though. Anything made by humans can screw up at anytime. | |||
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Well, there goes the bore obstruction theory! Just to look at the photo, you'd think it was a round full of some kind of fast pistol powder by accident, I've seen similar accidents in AR-15 variants using ammo reloaded with pistol powder by mistake. That, or some major metallurgical problem with the receiver. I wonder what the history on that gun was before this? | |||
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Wow, very lucky, that could have been much much worse. One odd thing I noticed - the loaded round in the bottom of the box, has had the bullet set back in the brass quite a bit. It is not unheard of in magazine rifles that get shot a lot, and the mag topped off with fresh ammo, to have the bottom rounds get set back by the recoil against the forward mag wall. It WILL raise pressures a lot, but not convinced that it will cause the kaboom you had. Definately an action blowup, not a muzzle blowup though, although a wasp nest in the throat, maybe could have done it. Actions stay closed and barrels taped around our camp, having seen a blown up shotgun in Mexico on a dove hunt once. Master of Boats, Slayer of Beasts, Charmer of the fair sex, ...... and sometimes changer of the diaper..... | |||
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Though the blow-up here may very well be the result of a little wasp, and a little mud, With what I'm reading in this thread, until now my only objection to Sako rifles was they are push feed. However I don't think I'd be buying any Sako rifles right now, not even deer rifles! So much for the value of proofing, when the ones with metallurgy problems that past proof then blew up on a buyer! ............................................................................................ ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Are Sakos cast? The only thing I can see that would allow a front ring, and rear bridge to be sheared off is a bad cast joint. Use enough gun... Shoot 'till it's dead, especially if it bites. | |||
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The theory of a wasp trudging 24/26 inches to deposit a blob of mud in the breech and having to reverse the same distance on a building site that is constantly on the move needs to be discarded. There is no excluding the possibility of having picked up some debris while cycling the bolt to chamber the round. It has already been confirmed that the ammo was standard factory so the theory of a "super-charged" reload is also to be discarded though it might just be possible to attribute this to a "rogue" round. If there was an existent head-spacing problem it would have been "felt" beforehand from prior shots fired (sticking bolt). | |||
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Any action, cast or otherwise, can give way with enough pressure. Hatcher's notebook has a bunch of info on these types of failures. As far as setback of a bullet causing a pressure spike, it seems like I have read that this is a problem with the relatively low volume of a pistol case (ESP. With fast-burning pistol powder), but testing has not shown it to lead to dangerous levels in large, bottle neck rifle cartridges. I'll have to see if I can dig the facts up on that... | |||
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Another forum, re: setback This seems sort of like the info I remembered. In a nutshell: Pistol ammo = small case volume, fast burning powder, little or no freebore Rifle ammo = large case volume, slow burning powder, lots of freebore (relatively...) Makes a lot of sense to me. Not sure if it sheds any light on this situation, other than possibly ruling of bullet setback as a likely cause. I'd say the setback noted in the picture could also be due to the way the magazine box collapsed on itself from front to back, you can see in the picture how the sides bowed out while pulling the ends in. | |||
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I saw a very similar accident last year when a client fired a 30-06 in a .300 Win mag. Rifle was also a SAKO. Injuries and damage looked very similar | |||
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I was just wondering how do you know that the ammo was factory loaded? Where you just told this? | |||
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The opening post: "The rifle was a brand new Sako .375 H&H Magnum (supplied by outfitter) and the ammo was Norma 300 grain Swift A-Frame". | |||
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I saw a client fire a 7x57 round in a 7mm Weatherby Mag and the only casualty was the 7x57 case and the bullet not reaching the target box. Why, then, does the 30-06/ 300 Win do that? All quite sobering. | |||
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I read the opening post. I am asking him if there is any chance that this is reloaded ammo. | |||
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Notice that I mentioned other's mistakes in my post; not only the shooter's. I am also aware that many other shooters do load their firearms without inspecting what they are actually loading into it. I feel that this is a mistake; one that should be remedied. That was the reason for my post... not to blame whomever the shooter in this example was. I guess my training in the Navy Nuclear Power Program taught me to be anal retentive when it comes to safety and that each one of us on duty were responsible for safety. Almost every accident can be traced to a chain of errors or oversights; not a single event. No disrespect was/is intended to anyone involved. A detailed study of actions leading up to an accident can help others to not repeat the event.
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The pictures of that rifle and the injuries are scary to say the least. I am glad you were not more severely injured. Thank you for sharing you experience and I hope the cause of this incident is found. | |||
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What about the possibility of a light powder charge that ignited the powder from the front of the case? It is my understanding light loads in large cases may need wads or fillers to prevent that happening. I don't think there is room in a 375 case for a double charge but a short charge could certainly happen in production. I would love to weigh some of the remaining ammo. | |||
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Maybe he left the bolt open with the gun in the rack while they were having lunch and after lunch tea & nap. Possible??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Michael .458 has always told me he has never been able to produce the above problem and has shot a lot of reduced loads with various powders. I think that possibility is highly unlikely with an appropriate .375 powder. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane: In my entire 30+ years in the business I fail to recall a single client leave his rifle with the bolt extended leaving the chamber open, in the rack or otherwise; the ONLY exception being at the range for safety reasons and to allow the barrel to cool quickly. Their aint no bee going to crawl into that barrel or chamber and get its ass fried  | |||
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I know a fellow who does. A potter's wasp plug in the throat would probably produce such results. Could happen...probably unlikely...but something happened...obviously. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane: If others ignore/flout the basics in weapon handling (regarding an unobstructed barrel) that is their problem and a responsibility that they will shoulder if something goes wrong but the same cannot be held accountable for faulty manufacture or ammo. With regards to the originally posted accident, if it wasn't a factory faulted single round it could have been debris in the breech as the threaded section of the barrel shows no evidence of damage/bulge. The explosion therefore occurred in the breech area for the action/box to explode in the manner as shown. I have failed to read anywhere in the postings as to the number of rounds fired by BC before the shit hit the fan other than the Sable. Was this rifle out in the field for the first time or had it been used by a previous client. For all we know it could have been a casting deficiency and after 'X' number of rounds fired, finally parted. But seeing I have mostly used DRs whose barrels can be inspected at a glance, my eloquence/experience on bolt rifles is somewhat limited. | |||
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Fugo, the wasps don’t travel the whole barrel, even 10 or 12 inches and forming a block is all it takes. The release of the pressure goes to the weakest point in the firearm to escape. That happens to be at the breech end of the barrel. The now empty cartridge case is right where this rifle came apart.
A factory round has been known to cause problems before! Factory is loaded completely on gang presses, and a powder measure may dump a partial charge, and an over charge in the next round. It has happened before. One more thing! I have been shooting Norma ammo, and reloading with Norma components for many years, and I have never seen a box of Norma factory ammo that was glued shut from the factory. Unless this is something new, which it may be, because it has been several years since I’ve bought a box of 375 H&H factory ammo. My bet is still on the BUG, or one of the Sako rifles that got through proof with metallurgy problems ! ........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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BCHunterfsj, I am glad you are ok. Here are some of my thoughts on this incident that may give others something to consider before using an unknown firearm and/or ammunition. You never know the past history of a firearm that you borrow from someone else. If it is unsafe for some unknown reason you will not know unless it even if it is inspected well. Double so for ammo, you can never be sure so it is always involving some risk. For this reason, as well as others, I will only use my own firearms and ammo. What if you had shot the animal with shot # 1 and had to follow up a wounded DG animal and it charged and this incident happened on shot # 2 ( follow-up shot) ? A secret to survival in any dangerous situation is to eliminate as many variables as possible, to put the odds in your favor as much as possible. That's about as much as anyone can do. Hope you have a speedy recovery and that your experience helps others learn. | |||
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Mac: Agreed on what you have just said and it could also be 4-5 inches either side of the barrel. Would it not be correct to assume that once the shot is fired the bullet will also be creating a forward pressure which, due to the obstruction can cause a back pressure but it will surely cause a deformity at the point where the obstruction lies. Do we know if the projectile left the barrel after the shot or was it stuck at the obstruction? If it exited the barrel then there would have been no reverse pressure. I have seen a chamber split lengthwise on a 7mm Rem Mag caused by some Rambo reloading and the end of a Sako 300 Win bulge and split due to barrel obstruction - it had been dropped muzzle-first into the dirt and not cleared. This particular rifle went back to Sako who shortened the barrel by several inches. | |||
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Fugo, If there was an obstruction in the barrel that caused the explosion, the fact that the most barrel damage was near the receiver ring and a blown action being the result as well. I would say the bullet would likely be found still in the barrel at the obstruction. The wasps damaging rifles has been known in Africa for many generations, but there is the fact that some Sako rifles have had some problems with a batch with farmed out components, this can’t be ruled out here on the internet, but by personal examination of what is left of the rifle, and ammo. I feel for the hunter that was injured by this blow-up. He suffered some physical injuries, but the happening may do psychological damage as well when he picks up the next rifle he hasn’t shot before. Talk about something causing a permanent FLINCH! .................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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This post deserves another example for all of us.Last fall I was with a good friend who had a similar experience. He is 83 years old and has been a re-loader all his life. He was shooting a .257 Weatherby magnum at an antelope. He was lying down prone with a bi-pod. I was lying to his left slightly back with my ears plugged and watching the buck thru my binoculars. He was taking a long time to shoot but he always does. Unknown to me, apparently he had pulled the trigger and nothing happened so he re-loaded. I did not see or hear him do so. I wish I had. When he shot there was a loud explosion that stunned me for a moment. When I look at my friend I was shocked to see his right hand mangled and bleeding badly. The action had blown into pieces all around us. His face took shrapnel as well and his glasses were pock marked and ruined. He went into a mild shock almost immediately. I wrapped his hand in a pair of gloves and applied pressure and got him somewhat stabilized. My truck was 300 yards away and I ran back and drove up to him. By then he was lying on his back and getting nauseous. I have extensive first aid training and I wrapped his hand up good in plenty of guaze etc.. then I loaded him up in my truck.He could barely stand up. When I did he looked at me and said I was bleeding. Turns out I took shrapnel as well but it was minor to is wounds. Then he asked me if he hit the antelope! The answer was no....I picked up all the pieces of the rifle and stalk I could find and threw them into my cooler. The barrel was blown straight forward about 20 feet. I drove rapidly to the nearest hospital over 50 miles away to the ER. He was in there for 4 hours and received over 60 stitch's on both sides of his damaged hand. He made a remarkable recovery with no permanent damage and killed a 6 point bull 4 weeks later with his 340 weather mag at 465 yards. After all the shock we pieced together what happened. I mentioned he is a re-loader. Turns out he pulled the trigger on a round with no powder in it. The primer blew the bullet down the barrel a very short distance. When he reloaded he did not look at the case and inspect it and I was unaware he was even reloading after nothing happen the first time he attempted to shoot.BIG MISTAKE! The next round was live and when he shot the whole action and stalk exploded into many pieces. This condition is known as a "squib". The bullet gets lodged in the barrel or other obstructions and the result can be catastrophic. Interestingly, there was no bullet still in the barrel but I'm fairly certain it was blown out when the back pressure blew everything up. The lesson is if you pull the trigger and nothing happens you dam well better stop and think. Its been a long time since I posted photos on here so I don't remember how but I'll send them to Saeed and ask him to post. After this experience, I suspect BC hunter somehow had a bad obstruction way back in the barrel which cause his action to explode. I wish you a good recovery SIR! | |||
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This is scary business and we should all learn from it. I personally have no confidence in someone else's guns or ammo. | |||
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Keith That is one of the most common causes of damage and a good story to highlight it. The others are loading a different round in the chamber than what the gun is for and of course a barrel obstruction. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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| Administrator |
The following photos were posted to me by Keith Atcheson, I hope he will post the details of what had happened.       | |||
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People take a few seconds and re-read Kieths post from above. Basically the same thing happend to me. I pulled the trigger while duck hunting. My brother was shooting right next to me so i didnt here the primer go off. In the heat of the moment i assumed the round was a total dud. With only the primer going off the load was deposited part of the way up the barrell. I opened the action and put in another shell. Seconds later when i pulled the trigger the thing blew up in my face. I had only shot 3 times so it was easy to go back a few days later and find the shell. To this day you can still see that the primer went off but the rest of the powder had been wet and didnt burn. 4 hours of surgery and $20,000 dollars later im functioning but my hand will never be the same. I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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I`ve had the primer go off on empty round about half a dozen times so far.I was lucky to have the state of mind to stop and see what happen.I remember two times when I did not.This was when I first started stuffing the mag box and shooting 4+1 instead of 3+1 out of my 308.The rifle at times would not feed the first round out of the 4 round mag.When I pulled the trigger on a round I forgot to primer I thought it was a misfeed,ejected and loaded another and pulled the trigger.I was lucky it was a primerless round instead of a powderless round. | |||
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One of Us |
You are indeed lucky: loading the magazine with empty cases with bullets seated, putting primerless rounds in the magazine. Are these the practices what prompted you to wear a football helmet when shooting? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Agreed, Thank you Keith! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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This thread would certainly not be a ringing endorsement of reloading for someone considering the possibility of reloading. Fact is, you cannot be too careful in reloading. Sort of like the old saying, "measure twice, cut once". You just have to be patient, alert and careful when you are reloading realizing that you are dealing with explosives. Mike | |||
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Reason being why I prefer using the best factory ammo available from the most reputable manufacturers. My piece of hardware dates back to 1938 and I have reservations it would hold out on reloaded ammo. Mac: Ball in your court. | |||
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Thinking back on the number of times I have left 375s behind with my PH and the glued flaps makes reloaded ammo seem very possible. Trapshooters are used to wads getting stuck in the barrel from squib loads from bad reloading. Most carry a brass weight to drop down the bore to dislodge the wad. When you get cranking with a progressive reloader it is easy to run out of powder or have the powder hang up in the drop tube. I don't think we will ever know what happened. Just be careful and always wear shooting glasses! | |||
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Fujo, I trust my reloads (not anybody elses) in any gun I shoot more that any factory ammo. But...with that said...I would certainly be fine shooting Norma ammo...do you consider Norma a quality ammo fit for your rifle? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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