quote:

Before even getting to query #2 and #1 remains unexplained to me; I ask; did you take ownership for the "rented" rifle, sight-it in? Take it to your bungalow every evening, chamber a coupla rounds, try the trigger, carry your own ammo, bring it with you to the hunt every morning, load, unload, notice anything untoward(s)) ..... let's hear the rest of the story ..... for Christ's Sake I'm really peculiar (you could describe it as Anal) about my own rifles, let alone a rifle & ammo that someone shoves in my hands & says, it's yours for the duration?

+++

Let's not forget the Sable that got shot several days before ..... presumably with the same rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Did you check how many rounds were left after the explosion. Is it possible that one of the rounds in the mag went off at the shot.
That would be the only feasible way you did not die with the bolt flying 20m back as it would then have gone up, not back. This would suggest a possible upward explosion rather than rearward.

Some pictures are really what is needed to get a better idea.

If you look at our video above of the rifle blow up, you will see that the bolt did NOT go back, but blew sideways!

It really was something we did not expect.

You will see the bold flies out to the right, hits the side wall and fall behind.

If it wasn't for the wall, it might have ended yards away.

Hi Saeed
You are correct. Very unexpected.
One way or the other I am happy to see that they are not coming straight back.
Have you any idea if this is the norm or possibly related to the action design etc.

I had heard that the Ruger actionswithstood the most pressure abuse before bursting, have you ever tried one on your exploding bench etc.
Regards
Ian

Hunting

I have seen a couple of blown up rifles
and the bolts have exited to the right,
via the port. One was chambering a 7.62 x 39
in a 22.250.

I think the bolt might initially come back
but the rear of the action holds while
the front disintegrates as the action explodes
and with less metal on the right, it only needs
the part in front of the ejection port to
break for it to be released.


Re the gas, not sure where the gas on a Sako
goes, Mausers channel it down into the mag well.

BCH

If you have photos, can you get them to someone
so they can be posted up ?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cow-trader:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by mustbhuntn:
A good example of today's society. Don't even know what happened and ready to sue.

I am sorry for your accident but dam...accept some responsibility for your own safety and well being. It's hunting...things can happen...doesn't mean someone is liable.

+1

Let's assume, hypothetically, that it was not a barrel obstruction or a reloading problem, would I be looking for someone to sue . . . you are damn right I would. Call me a corrupted product of the American society if you want, but guns and ammunition are manufactured not to explode. If there was a problem with the gun or the ammunition, I was injured and had my hunt ruined, those are exactly the types of situations that the courts are intended to address.

Should follow your own advice and not be so quick to pass judgment. No one here knows anything more about the situation than the original poster posted and some are prepared to attribute it to a lack of personal responsibility. Gimme a break.

Give me a break! The chances of a Sako loaded with factory Norma ammo exploding without a barrel obstruction are exquisitively slim.

How about figure out beyond a shadow o a doubt what happened and if it was manufacturer negligence/error...by all means have at your suit!

But dam...just saying...

I presume you mean exceedingly slim, but in any event this is from less than ten years ago:

Finnish gun manufacturer recalls faulty hunting weapons
American man injured when Sako rifle explodes


The Finnish hunting rifle manufacturer Sako has recalled nearly 3,000 of its guns with a potential defect that could cause it to break apart when fired. In October, Mark Almeida, a 45-year-old American living in University Place, Washington, suffered injuries to his hand when his new Sako 300 Winchester Short Mag Finnlight model rifle exploded while he was shooting at a firing range.
"The target was 200 yards away when I pulled the trigger. The gun let out a powerful explosive sound that I had never heard before, and it broke up in my hands", he explains. He was rushed to hospital with four broken bones in his hand. He was in surgery for four hours.
After the incident, Sako ordered a recall of its series of 2,700 weapons.
Sako CEO Henry Paasikivi says that a total of six guns are known to have malfunctioned in the same way - one of them in Finland. In one case, a Swedish boy lost the tip of his thumb.
The barrels would break up lengthwise into several fragments, and in some cases, other parts of the gun also broke. The problem was attributed to a weakness in the stainless steel used in the manufacture. Guns of the series in question were sold to several countries, from the United States to New Zealand, before the defect was noticed.
All buyers have been notified, and most of the guns have been returned to the factory for repairs or replacement, except for a few in the United States. The faulty rifles were manufactured at the company's factory in Riihimäki last year. They include Sako and Tikka models.
When the problems arose, Sako immediately discontinued production and deliveries of the models, and began to recall them from retailers, and contacted individual buyers.
However, the company did not make any public statements at the time. "We did not consider that necessary, because we were able to reach all owners of the weapons in other ways", he said.
"We have got all of the guns back, except in the United States, and 90 percent of the weapons we sold there have been located. All consumers have been contacted a long time ago."
Paasikivi says that the weapons will be repaired, if necessary, and sent back to the owners.[/QUOTE]

Crickets chirping.....

What a horrible experience and I am very please you came out on the relatively light side and able to share this with us

As there are only 22 PH's n Zambia fairgame or Thor will be able to give us the bottom line as to causation in due cause.

Personally I sense sako should be informed and I would not be surprised if they might fly somebody out to Zambia upon hearing this.

I am more interested in the medical side of things

Did your physician or surgeon give you advice before your trip concerning your warfarin prescription ?

How did you find the emergency care in Zambia

This aspect of emergency care while on safari send shivers up my spine...

Was it vit k antagonist rather than vit k you were offered ?

Did the medics mention at any point the word paradaxa or coumadin ?

Just curious

This opens up a topic I wanted to talk about for many year but whenever I mention it

The response is always "it will not happen to me , somebody else perhaps. Or I am only going for 10 days .... Etc etc

Also

If this rifle was made by Blaser ......

I sense the response would have been a little different

Would you guys agree ?!?

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Also

If this rifle was made by Blaser ......

I sense the response would have been a little different

Would you guys agree ?!?

I was also shocked that this could happen with a Sako as I also thought only Blasers would blow up.

I think we have heard stories of practically all gun makers rifles having accidents.

I also think there are lot more stories we do not hear about.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Sorry to hear or this.
My first guess, if you are sure it was not buried in the ground at some point, would be potter wasps.
They can close a barrel up in 3 minutes.

Had you fired the gun before?

+1
That would be my guess as well! The first time I hunted in the Luangwa Valley my PH warned me to place tape over the muzzles of my rifles to avoid the potter’s wasp from plugging the bore, and to place my rifle in the case at night. I would bet that was your problem. We have one of this type wasps in Texas, and here we call them Dirt Dobbers! The mud hardens very quickly, and even when still soft will blow a barrel, usually about 10 inches ahead of the chamber, if fired with it in the bore.

..........................................................................

I do not exclude the rifle or ammo manufacturer. Obviously everything needs to be looked at.However we tend to look at the most probable causes first.

Everyone seems quick to assume wasps or the rifle. I had some factory Federal ammo I had to use a rubber mallet to pound open the bolt. Flattened primers and shiny extraction marks on the back of the cases. I returned them to Federal and was told all were in spec. Curiously the ammo returned was from a different batch. Nobody works to zero defects.
My money is still on the wasps. Every PH I hunted with cautioned me about them. When we would stop for lunch one PH would gently insert two rounds point first into the muzzles to act as a wasp protection.

BCHunterfsj,

One question: Did you miss your target completely on your previous shot?

Otherwise, this sounds exactly like an experience a friend had here, with bad ammo/powder!

In his case it was adulterated powder used in reloaded .223 rounds. [ball and stick powder both were found in the factory powder can] This powder caused a similar result in a Remington bolt action rifle.

I think it would be difficult to double charge a .375H&H cartridge, but since Norma seems to load their ammo fairly hot anyway, might an overcharge be enough to blow up?

I'd look closely at the ammo as well as the rifle. [I assume this was not one of the recalled rifles?]

I believe the recalled Sako rifles that had problems were short magnums and the barrels were fluted. Sako outsourced these and some were bad. The guns that had these barrels were between serial numbers 419140 and 461951.

quote:

Originally posted by mustbhuntn:
A good example of today's society. Don't even know what happened and ready to sue.

I am sorry for your accident but dam...accept some responsibility for your own safety and well being. It's hunting...things can happen...doesn't mean someone is liable.

+1[/QUOTE]

+1

As another Canuck stated above "Oh no, more exploding Sakos!" This sounds similar to a well documented incident in BC a few years back, right down to the types of injuries sustained. I'll be curious to see the photos.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I believe the recalled Sako rifles that had problems were short magnums and the barrels were fluted. Sako outsourced these and some were bad. The guns that had these barrels were between serial numbers 419140 and 461951.

And...it was a barrel problem...not an action problem.

I am curious, and hopefully we will never know, but I wonder how those that want to say "quit looking for someone to blame, accept personal responsibility and be a big boy," would react if the shoe was on their foot. If they were the one that was hunting, lined up for a shot and had a rifle literally explode in their hands riddling them with shrapnel. I am sure they would just man up and say, shit happens, I need to be more careful next time . . . yea right.

quote:

Primary cause is small amounts of dirt get into the muzzle end of barrel then when the weapon is shouldered the dust falls down to the breach around the chambered round .If this is repeated one or two times a catastrophic blow back is caused !

That's disappointingly weak. The PH should not be passing on rank speculation (regardless of whether obtained from a "gunsmith" in person or here on this forum). "Dust" doesn't plug a barrel sufficiently that pressures rise to the point that catastrophic failure occurs. Hopefully, a post-mortem of the rifle's remains will shed some light on the cause.

Has the PH made any offer or concession to attempt to make up for an incident that was either his responsibility or your very bad luck? Either way, were I in his place I certainly would feel obligated to do so.

I just gotta ask.

What more could a PH do than give the fellow a quality brand good condition rifle (new) and a quality name brand ammo???

Does anyone here think a Sako is not a quality rifle?

Does anyone here think Norma is not high quality ammo?

The rifle was obviously fine at first...shot an antelope.

At least one round in the box of ammo was OK...did not blow the rifle up on first shot.

Ja...I would want to know what happened...but until I knew 100% for sure...I would not be looking for restitution.

As to detonation-
Have seen a new 700 Remington 7Mag come apart with a 270 Winchester (Remington Brand) fired in it -

The round was the only 270 in a factory NEW box of Remington 7MM Mag-

and a 378 Weatherby bolt freeze with a Factory Weatherby (Norma built) round-
to the point it had to be hammered apart-

when the other rounds in the lot were checked- they were overcharged

Though rare - factory errors occur-
whether manufacturing defects in the weapon-
or the ammunition

Although-Bore occlusions and hot handloads are by far the more common reasons for these detonations

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
As to detonation-
Have seen a new 700 Remington 7Mag come apart with a 270 Winchester (Remington Brand) fired in it –

The round was the only 270 in a factory NEW box of Remington 7MM Mag-

Though rare - factory errors occur-
whether manufacturing defects in the weapon-
or the ammunition

Although-Bore occlusions and hot handloads are by far the more common reasons for these detonations

……………….Things that make you go HUMMMMMMmmmmmmm?

What I would like to ask is, How do you go about firing a rimless 270Win round in a PUSH FEED rifle with a magnum bolt face? The 270 round would fall too deeply in the 7MM Mag belted rimless chamber, and the extractor hook wouldn’t grab the rim of a 270 Win cartridge so the firing pin could get to the primer!

…………………………………………………………………………………

Three years ago I bought a brand new SP-10 Remington. I started patterning Remington and Federal 10 gauge turkey loads to get ready for the spring season. After firing a few of the Remingtons, I started testing the Federals at various ranges. The third Federal round I fired scared the crap out of me. The recoil was noticeably more violent and the report was quite a bit louder than the other rounds. The hull failed to eject and was lodged in the ejection port. Upon removing it, I could see that the brass was split lengthwise and completely sheared at the rim. I took the gun home, field stripped it, and found no damage. The gun, even with Federal ammo, has shot well for me ever sense that day and I fully trust it.

That was the only time that I have ever experienced something like that and thankfully neither myself or the firearm sustained damage. I keep that ruptured 10 gauge hull posted over my reloading bench as a reminder that sometimes things happen. I will never know exactly what went wrong when I pulled the trigger that day. I don't blame Remington, Federal, or myself because I don't even know what happened.

I hope you and the PH make a speedy recovery. I also hope the cause of this accident can be found. It is impossible, in my opinion, to lay blame on anyone or anything until the actual cause is found.

Head space is on the neck-
The firing pin will still strike- due to the length of the 270 Win

The escaping gas from the poor chamber fit blew the gun apart

BTW- the Gun was replaced by Remington -
Plus Extras

This could have been a case of someone tampering with the ammo on the shelf. Can it be certain that the 270 was placed in that box of 7mm Mags at the factory? This is an example of the responsibilty of the shooter to verify what they loading into the firearm. As the shooter, we can be the last line of defense against defects/negligence. Diligence is our responsibility and can save us from other's mistakes.

Box was sealed-
glued shut-

The shooter - a young college graduate-
had shot rifles all his life-
So-
You open a glued box-
You placed the rounds in the magazine-

Sure YOU may criticize-

He Could have been MORE careful-

How many magazines have each of us loaded WITHOUT inspecting EVERY round of FRESH factory ammo-

SO- yes BLAME the kid -
Hell -
Blame everyone-
that does not thoroughly inspect EACH and EVERY round they load-

For it is my belief-
that each and everyone of us is guilty of this

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Head space is on the neck-
The firing pin will still strike- due to the length of the 270 Win

The escaping gas from the poor chamber fit blew the gun apart

BTW- the Gun was replaced by Remington -
Plus Extras

Head-spacing on the shoulder where the 270 is base to the beginning of the neck(where the 270 would have to head-space in a 7mm mag chamber) is 2.156” and on the 7mm Rem Mag is 2.500” that would be only 0.344” between the bolt face and the primer, so I guess it is possible.

......................................................................

Mac, if the case is resting against the bolt face, the inertia from the loaded round is enough for the primer to go off when struck by the firing pin. No need to have a proper headspace for the rifle to go Bang...

BChunter,
I feel your pain literaly as i went through a similar experince. Hopefully there will be no permenant damage.
Good luck with the manufacturer. I wasnt even interested in suing as i determined the accident was my fault. I called the company about getting new barrels for a prized over and under. They completely freaked out and initialy would only let me talk to a lawyer "type".

P.S. The first round i shot after the accident was quite un-nerving to say the least.

Actually, non magnum rounds such as 270, 30-06 etc will fire in a magnum chamber some times.

We tried it ourselves, using primed with a bullet seated but no powder.

Many times it won't fire, and a sometimes they did.

We did not expect any to fire to ne honest.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Head-spacing on the shoulder where the 270 is base to the beginning of the neck(where the 270 would have to head-space in a 7mm mag chamber) is 2.156” and on the 7mm Rem Mag is 2.500” that would be only 0.344” between the bolt face and the primer, so I guess it is possible.

......................................................................

Mac: Either your info or your math is bad. The measurement to the neck-shoulder junction on a 7mm RM is 2.22", not 2.5". It is possible for the headspacing to be positive enough with a .270 WIN in a 7mm RM chamber for the primer to be ignited. I recall exactly this same instance with an acquaintance who placed a .270 cartridge in a 7mm chamber and suffered a badly ruptured case, but no damage to rifle or shooter.

Offhand, I can't think of a cartridge which would chamber fire in a .375 H&H chamber which would present the same issues as a .270 in a 7mm RM chamber. No commonly available cartridge of less diameter but similar datum point exists (however there are possibly some obscure and obsolete cartridges of European origin, perhaps rimmed ones, which could be ignited in a .375 chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by cow-trader:
I just gotta ask.

What more could a PH do than give the fellow a quality brand good condition rifle (new) and a quality name brand ammo???

Does anyone here think a Sako is not a quality rifle?

Does anyone here think Norma is not high quality ammo?

The rifle was obviously fine at first...shot an antelope.

At least one round in the box of ammo was OK...did not blow the rifle up on first shot.

Ja...I would want to know what happened...but until I knew 100% for sure...I would not be looking for restitution.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Head-spacing on the shoulder where the 270 is base to the beginning of the neck(where the 270 would have to head-space in a 7mm mag chamber) is 2.156” and on the 7mm Rem Mag is 2.500” that would be only 0.344” between the bolt face and the primer, so I guess it is possible.

......................................................................

Mac: Either your info or your math is bad. The measurement to the neck-shoulder junction on a 7mm RM is 2.22", not 2.5".

Stone you could very well be correct, but the measurements I posted are out of the Nosler #3 hand-loading manual, page 178 for the 270, and page 204 for the 7MM rem mag. 2.38 measured on an actual factory round from Winchester, so the info in the Nosler book is wrong, because the 2.500 is the over all length for the 7MM mag, and the factory ammo is wrong because it measures different than my post, and yours as well.
The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions lists the 7mm r/m measurement from base to shoulder/neck joint as 2.229., and the 270 Win is 2.157

I seems none of the sources match with an actual measurement of a factory cartridge, but all are close enough that the 270Win can be fired in a 7mm RM chamber.

This is a thing that is common in cartridge measurements given in books, and the inconsistencies in actual factory loaded rounds.

I'd say this is a case for the need to fire form your own brass for your own rifle, because the chambers may be different as well!

Well at least this has cleared it up at least as clear as Mississippi mud!

I think I managed to download a couple of photos - one of me and one of the rifle...
Meanwhile, thank you so much for all the input!

That new SAKO must have been racked muzzle up in the bed of the truck for a week to get that much dust around the chambered round.

George

My son's Sako looked just like the photo of this rifle but his had a sys,stock. All the pressure blew out the magazine. I had to use a hammer to open the bolt.
My son got a few cuts on his face and was very lucky that's all that happened.
The problem was ME I reloaded the ammo and after 30years of reloading I made my first big mistake.
I usually use 51g of IMR 4350 and I had taken the wrong powder IMR 4198. ; I had just looked at the color of the can and not read the number. 51g of IMR 4198 was just too much pressure for the gun
Joe