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Originally posted by Opus1:

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Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

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Originally posted by Opus1:
With some of the epic misses that I have witnessed in the field I would suggest that 50 yards is 45 yards too far for some.

As a once upon a time F Class shooter, I have seen plenty of guys who can accurately hit a 6" target at 600 yards in all conditions with enviable consistency.

At the end of the day, shooting at 50 or 500 yards depends on conditions and the hunter's true capabilities. Some guys claiming long range competence probably shouldn't have in retrospect. Other shooters can perform some awe inspiring shots.

Opus:

Flags help a ton, as does that rock solid F Class bipod. And let's not forget the sighters.

No question, but my long range rig has a Nightforce with the MOAR reticle and I use a G7 ballistic rangefinder. As long as one can properly dope the wind, the rest is amazingly easy to put bullet on target. Technology is definitely making LR shots a lot more accurate.

I am not going to debate if this is hunting or shooting or ethical, but there are a lot of guys in the field that can make consistent and confident kills at very long ranges. Then again, a lot of these guys do it for a living.

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Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Well now we have this topic being discussed in two areas, here and in the American Hunting topic area.

In both the "E" word is getting tossed in occasionally. Another word that has surfaced is "Sniper".

I really do not view these type discussions concerning the various "Hunting" methods others use or other hunters individual concept of "Ethical Behavior" as giving fuel to any of the anti-hunting groups, but as wedges dividing hunters.

To me this is one of those issues that reminds me of a line from some movie I watched, "Just because a person CAN do a thing, SHOULD they do that thing???".

Hi Randall, Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Lets just leave the "E' word out of it and just focus on the skill required.

Is anyone on this forum, capable of consistently hitting an 8" bull, at 600 yards, in a 16 MPH crosswind? Pick any of your favorite long range specific chambering.

I'd like to hear AAZ's opinion on this. He's a long range guy and seems pretty knowledgeable.

I would also like for someone to post the firing solution. If I see this correctly, A 1" gun is off by up to 6 inches at 600 in perfect conditions? Is this the correct manner in calculating it?

Steve:

I wasn't on AR all weekend. I see the usual "if you can't do it yourself, don't knock others" comments. Fair enough, but at some point, there are too many things that can go wrong.

You quote a eight inch vital area for a klippie; that to me is greatly exaggerated - I would say six inches. But I would also say if you gut shot the thing you could probably eviscerate it so badly it would die quickly. However, the other side of "eviscerate" is a miss to far forward, so let's keep it at six inches.

I agree with Larry; hitting a grapefruit at 600 yards is not terribly difficult. Every Friday at PRG we shoot at 500 yards and I can normally hit my 3 inch circle or come with one or two inches, even in a moderate wind, even shooting sitting with a bipod. However, I think any shooting school deludes you with a false sense of security, since you normally start shooting close and then move out farther. For example, suppose I go out shooting in the desert. The odds of hitting a rock at 500 yards is much higher than hitting the same rock at 800 yards. But shooting the 500 yard rock first allows me to get a good idea of the wind, making it much easier to hit the rock at 800 yards. My long range drill is to go our in the desert and see if I can hit within five inches of my point of aim the first time. The time it takes to evaluate the wind is about as long as it would take to stalk to within a few hundred yards, but that is beside the point. Once I have fired once, my odds of hitting the next time go WAY up. In this way, shooting schools are somewhat delusional: how many guys hit that grapefruit the first time?

Here is one thing no one discusses: not all bullets travel in a straight line. Suppose you can shoot 1/2 MOA in the field (it isn't that hard with a custom rifle). That means 3 inch groups at 600 yards, which means some bullets are going to hit 1.5 inches left of your point of aim, and some will hit 1.5 inches to the right. A six inch vital area has only 3 inches on either side before you begin to miss wide. So in order to have a 100 percent chance of hitting that klippie, we must judge the wind deflection within 1.5 inches, or we risk missing.

I don't know what this guy was shooting, so let's use a 210 Berger at 2950 fps out of a 300 RUM, one of my favorite long range cartridges (actually I like the 338 Edge or LM better). Let's assume the wind is left to right and the animal is facing to our left. At 16 mph, the wind deflection is 27.2 inches, or 4.34 MOA. But suppose the wind is only 15 mph, and the bullet we fired is the one that hits 1.5 inches of the left our point of aim. Because the wind is only 15 mph, the drift will be 25.6, or 1.6 inches less than we thought, which combined with the fact the bullet hit 1.5 inches left even before the effect of the wind is enough to cause a miss. Granted, the odds of misjudging the wind too light while at the same time shooting the bullet that impacts at the left side of our group are small (we are just as likely to shoot right or left, and just as likely to overestimate or underestimate the wind), but they are there.


Personally, I have hit such a vital area with a 4 to 6 MOA wind hold (at targets, not at animals), but I have learned once I have to hold more than 2 MOA for wind, the miss rate really increases. What really irritates me are the shows that show shots beyond 1000 yards; I shoot every week at 1290 yards with my big 338s. The time of flight is so long I can shoot, recover, put my scope on the target, and see the bullet strike the rock. A one mile per hour wind error results in a drift error of 10 inches!! With a 2 second time of flight, the wind can easily change 1 mph during the TOF.

At some point, it is too far. I would also say if you don't practice weekly at wind calls, you don't have much business shooting at game that requires a wind hold. Being able to shoot at long range several times per week is why I live in AZ - it isn't for the fishing.

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Originally posted by Saeed:
Reminds me of the story of a client who arrived in camp with a brand new super accurate rifle, made by a very famous gunsmith.

He got his fame for making these super accurate rifles.

I suppose they are, in the hands of a capable rifleman.

Anyway, this gentleman arrived with one box of ammo, 20.

Because apparently he only wanted about 10-12 animals.

First day hunting, I think he fired most of this box to get a warthog

An accurate rifle is is only as accurate as the man who shoots it.

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Originally posted by Opus1:
Larry - I agree. Sometimes one is left with no choice but to take the long shot. Pretty hard to sneak up on a Blue Wildebeest standing in the middle of a 200 acre wide salt pan or a sheep standing on an adjacent mountain or pretty much any scenario when hunting Vaal Rhebok.

Sometimes 450 yards is as close as you're ever going to get. So the question is, are you capable and prepared and experienced enough to take the shot?

Many are, but some who attempt are not.

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Originally posted by larryshores:
Gentlemen:

Every time we go to Vegas, we go to ProGun Club in Boulder City. It is quite entertaining. It is hysterical to watch my wife shoot a full auto weapon. For me, I shoot 30-40 rounds with a Barrett sniper rifle chambered in 50 BMG. I shoot a rock at 1,000 yards. This about as much fun as one can have with their clothes one.

I can hammer this rock virtually every time. Would I shoot a game animal that far away? Never! Would I shoot a varmint that far? Probably, under the right set of circumstances.

These people on TV are shooting way too far in my opinion.

I can remember taking a sheep at 527 and another at 550. These are the longest shots I can recall at game animals. I only took these because of ideal conditions. Great rest and no wind. Most of the shots I take are less than 100 yards. If I could not get closer, I would take a 500ish shot under the perfect set of circumstances. Would I shoot at over 600? I seriously doubt it.

We all have to make up our mind what is right and what is wrong. I have made up mine.

Long range shooting is a lot of fun. Long range hunting, well............

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Originally posted by Opus1:
The guys behind Long Range Pursuit own GunWerks that sells LR rifles and equipment. They are largely using the program as advertising which explains many of the shooting encounters they televise.

BTW - They build some of the most accurate out of the box rifles around.

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quote:
Originally posted by Snellstrom:
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Originally posted by OLBIKER:

You shot your mouth off without reading all my posts.Go back and read them and STFU!!!OB


I read all your posts and I still think you are trying to bully your opinions onto others I don't buy it I think you are bag of wind, you don't run this site so you don't get to tell me to STFU!!OB
We all get to have an opinion yours doesn't matter to me in the least because you are out of your depth.


I think you are still butt hurt Hillary lost.Show me where I forced my opinion on anyone?You are right ,I do not run this site.If you don`t like my opinions,don`t read then or put me on ignore.I still am going to post my opinion with out your permission.GFY,OB

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Originally posted by LR3:
Steve. I was not going to add to the debate since so much depends on so many variables but I ll answer your question that for people who shoot long range regularly with the best equipment this is not a particularly difficult shot. My friend who holds a 1000yd record, he shoots clay pigeons or starlings at 1000 yds and 3' rocks at 2500yds in varying conditions. At 600yds my drift, with what I will assume was a 90degree wind, the distance is 22.1" or 3.5MOA. That is with a rifle that groups 2.5" at 700 yds and 12" at 2200yds. While, as Bill says, one sometimes needs to take long shot, like I ve done across a canyon or pond for an elk or deer, I much prefer to get to less than 50 yds to shoot a buffalo with my double or Gibbs 505. But I m also usually more accurate at 1000yds with my long range rifle than I m at 70 yds with my iron sight double but the latter is sure much more fun hunting! the other is a more calculated precision marksman shoot that requires precise calculations with no errors, and those can much more easily occur.

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I'm going to go learn some of this stuff and hang out with AAZW for some tips

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There will be widely divergent views on what is regarded acceptable behaviour from hunting, to how you speak to your wife, kids, or treat people who work for you, or how you treat your dogs and behave in the traffic. Pick your poison. In my mind the point is to focus on what really matters and to be cautious to start a furore that will create more issues for hunters.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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There will be widely divergent views on what is regarded acceptable behaviour from hunting, to how you speak to your wife, kids, or treat people who work for you, or how you treat your dogs and behave in the traffic. Pick your poison. In my mind the point is to focus on what really matters and to be cautious to start a furore that will create more issues for hunters.

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I've asked this twice in this thread with no responses. Talking about it is potentially negative to our passion.

However, a television show showing every detail of the activity isn't. This logic completely defies any conceivable explanation.

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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There will be widely divergent views on what is regarded acceptable behaviour from hunting, to how you speak to your wife, kids, or treat people who work for you, or how you treat your dogs and behave in the traffic. Pick your poison. In my mind the point is to focus on what really matters and to be cautious to start a furore that will create more issues for hunters.

Hi Lane, hope you're well.

I've asked this twice in this thread with no responses. Talking about it is potentially negative to our passion. However, a television show showing every detail of the activity isn't. This logic completely defies any conceivable explanation.

Hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas and a safe and prosperous New Year!

Steve

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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There will be widely divergent views on what is regarded acceptable behaviour from hunting, to how you speak to your wife, kids, or treat people who work for you, or how you treat your dogs and behave in the traffic. Pick your poison. In my mind the point is to focus on what really matters and to be cautious to start a furore that will create more issues for hunters.

Hi Lane, hope you're well.

I've asked this twice in this thread with no responses. Talking about it is potentially negative to our passion. However, a television show showing every detail of the activity isn't. This logic completely defies any conceivable explanation.

Hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas and a safe and prosperous New Year!

Steve

Hi Steve,
Here is where I am coming from. I will use one of my professional organizations as an example.

I recently returned from the American Association of Equine Practitioners meeting in Orlando, Florida.

I am member of several communities in that org. When we have committee meetings...we have open door public sessions and closed door sessions for sensitive matters. We try to stay united to the public and when we emerge from closed door sessions...we speak as one.

Politically...we have much more clout that way.

This discussion would be a great discussion for a private chat with SCI/DSC membership. But this forum is public, gets monitored by antis, and it's discussions are frequently quoted by anti groups.

This is my logic.

Merry Christmas All.

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Originally posted by Tim Vining:
This is a very interesting thread with a lot of excellent input on a important topic. "me the question is What is a ethical (humane) shot?" For me its being able to make a quick, humane kill. Its important to know our limitations as a shooter. I feel confident in my shooting abilities out to 400 yards. After that to many environmental conditions come into play that may adversely affect shot placement. I strive for a shot that is humane and the animal does not suffer. As Clint Eastwood said in a movie "A man's got to know his limitations".

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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There will be widely divergent views on what is regarded acceptable behaviour from hunting, to how you speak to your wife, kids, or treat people who work for you, or how you treat your dogs and behave in the traffic. Pick your poison. In my mind the point is to focus on what really matters and to be cautious to start a furore that will create more issues for hunters.

Hi Lane, hope you're well.

I've asked this twice in this thread with no responses. Talking about it is potentially negative to our passion. However, a television show showing every detail of the activity isn't. This logic completely defies any conceivable explanation.

Hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas and a safe and prosperous New Year!

Steve

Hi Steve,
Here is where I am coming from. I will use one of my professional organizations as an example.

I recently returned from the American Association of Equine Practitioners meeting in Orlando, Florida.

I am member of several communities in that org. When we have committee meetings...we have open door public sessions and closed door sessions for sensitive matters. We try to stay united to the public and when we emerge from closed door sessions...we speak as one.

Politically...we have much more clout that way.

This discussion would be a great discussion for a private chat with SCI/DSC membership. But this forum is public, gets monitored by antis, and it's discussions are frequently quoted by anti groups.

This is my logic.

Merry Christmas All.

Fair enough. I think the anti's are far more shallow than we give them credit to be. They want "instant gratification." Right click save is likely a more emotional tool to them than is taking about things they have no clue about.

You think they understand terms like "spin drift" or a "1/2 minute" gun or doping the wind?

All that said, I do agree it would be better behind closed doors. But when, where and with whom, would this occur?

Steve

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Originally posted by ledvm:
P.S.: In a closed door setting where we emerge united as hunters...I think these type of discussions are very good.

Remember the first rule of fight club.

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Originally posted by ledvm:
http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/lc1762011.pdf

I took this from the Lion Conservation Forum where I had Saeed pin it to the top.

But it illustrates my point.

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Originally posted by crbutler:
Remember that Jolo was/is a member.

I don't think a members only room is going to keep the antis away unless it's a members recommended by members as known hunters thing, and even then there may well be leaks.

Secrecy in itself can be seen as an admission of guilt or wrongdoing... like Hillary's stuff.

Face to face is best, but frankly, when there are so many disparate groups and individuals you will have "wedge issues"

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Originally posted by crbutler:
Remember that Jolo was/is a member.

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Originally posted by crbutler:

But the folks who we need to convince, the nonhunting middle ground, might well see it as such.

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Originally posted by larryshores:

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Originally posted by crbutler:
Remember that Jolo was/is a member.

I probably scared her off. We had some communications, all polite. I gave her some information that really could be disputed. Then I offered to send her to Africa at my expense so she could see for herself exactly what the outfitters were doing. I also sent her some pics of snared animals as well as links to Carters War. She fell silent.