quote:

Originally posted by perry:
...That question should be kept to yourself because you are essentially calling them a liar...are you not???
...Does my position make sense or am I off here?

Perry

Perry,
only in an "either or" world. Mike respected the feedback of both parties, and did not proclaim one more truthful than the other. He took the feedback as presented, said, nicely, that they are 180deg apart, and that the results, from two respected sources, confused him.

When things look like a paradox, you have to change your assumptions.

No one was called a liar.. He didn't choose a result and call the other foul. He said the results aren't clear, and the means BEWILDERED, as in "wow, that's a difficult thing to decide from the data given"

Seriously, your initial post read as if Mike had called one of them a bald faced liar, which is not the case.

You assumption is wrong, and the actions following the wrong assumption, regardless of how right, are wrong.

Besides, if Mike called either fella ANYTHING, they would have no doubt as to his perspective, even if it took them a second to figure out that he had called them out.

chill.

Here is a field report! Check this out, near the end of his report!
Hornady bullets

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:

I hope Ganyana's new position at Norma Bullets is working out well.

I have great respect for both Ivan and Ganyana (met them both albeit briefly). I've always loved their posts, informative and to the point so I have no issues with the seemingly divergent points of view. Dave your post challenging Ganyana's was fine as well; until the last line. Uncalled for and an obvious attempt at challenging integrity. jorge

Mike

I apologize for jumping your ass over a bullet topic, pretty stupid in retrospect.

Perry

to all

Sorry for stinking up this thread.

Perry

Perry, I would not sweat it for a nano-second. Absolutely no big deal.

As said on the other thread,
probably a good whitetail bullet.
But with one out of three losing its core completely when impacting a few inches of topsoil at 2096 fps ...
And all of them losing the cores completely at anything over 2100 fps impact velocity ...
Not the best of odds for DG.
Maybe if the cores were bonded?
Might act like a Woodleigh RNSN then?

shooting bullets into dirt only proves they can hold up in dirt! Its an ok test but doesnt mean much.

Tsx expand perfectly in dirt but go through buffalo like solids Ask SAFARIKID about his last 2 buff with 570TSX .510 (and His Alaska Brownie) I shot my 63" kudu with .375 tsx and he didnt even flinch on any shot they werent perfect shots but the trackers said I missed but their were 3 holes for 3 shots in the kudu once found.

A lot depends on caliber and speeds but if you make it to complecated you will just confuse yourself when you should be concetrating on bullet PLACEMENT. (iam speaking from experience)

I prefer Woodleighs but at the time for me woodleighs were sold out So i went with the Hornady's in .458, I had 600gr woodleighs in my 500 but only shot paper & then dirt with them once i landed in S.A. I am not saying hornadys are the best but they work. And its not that big a deal if they break up the damage will be so massive it will still be a kill shot. (just look at my hippo I just shot with the DGX in the head it f__ked him up (wait till i get the video of it) The shot was low and 25yds on a steep hill down. pics are posted in a report, you can see the shot in the pic. So if you already have a load and are shooting them accurately dont go changing last minute, If you have the time(months or years) just go with Woodleigh they are low cost high quality.

NONE of my DGX OR DGS seperated like the picture. I was shooting mine into a 55gal plastic drum filled with sand. Sand was wet with rainwater. All shots were 10-100yds at 2200fps I will see if i can go back and dig some up I will post pics if I find any that havnt been hit by other bullets now.

These threads tickle me to no end. I started reading it last night and today I looked through one of Selous's books. He just waxes poetic about how lethal his 461 gibbs single shot was on everything including elephants. The load!!!! A 540 grain solid (that means a hardened LEAD bullet) with 80 grains of BLACK POWDER. He said he was a little hesitant at first to use it on elephants but after he found it to be utterly reliable on everything including cape buffalo he decided to try it on elephants. So he just merrily killed 4 the first day and then shot two more the second day. He noted that on the side brain shot it killed as if the elephant had been shot with a field gun .

I guess all those animal have gotten a lot tougher over the intervening 100 years or so. May be they have just read tooooo much AR and now know that anything less that a bullet made of triple hardened unobtainium jacket with a core of depleted uranium will simply bounce off.

els,
Selous got 45/70 "Hammerhead" performance with his 461 Gibbs 540-grain cast lead bullets acting like solids at 1400-1500 fps?
They would certainly penetrate better on an elephant than the DGX at 2100 fps.

BIJOUCREEK,
Referring to SAFARIKID's "penciling-through" TSX bullets must recognize that they were shot from a very short-barreled 500 Jeffery
and at 180-yards plus on a brown bear for one instance.
Impact velocity was about 1800 fps or less for the .508/570-grain TSX.

They did not open up, probably tumbled and went out the other side base first and corkscrewed a bit first.

The XLC would do the same at that velocity.
But these .509/570-grain XLC's open up like a parachute when impacting at about 2300 fps on a bison.
They were found under the hide on the offside on a chest shot, repeated after death for two recovered, one at 50 yards live, one at 25 yards dead:





Get the TSX bullets fast enough and they will perform well as softs.
Not so the DGX.
I have rifle-killed enough moose, bison, water buffalo, and cape buffalo to know a bad bullet when I scratch it out of a few inches of dirt.

RIP

Yeah it was a short bbl 500j but it was still throwing them at 2200fps. I know, I loaded them and built the rifle. and to me 570gr bullet at 2200fps how much faster do I want it, if they dont open with that there is a problem. Buff were 120yds they should have worked better. Yes i could install a 24" bbl and push it to 26-2700fps just to get the bullet to open? lets all just shoot woodleighs at 2250 impact velocity, and we will all be happy and have one shot kills.

When looking at my PH's gear and bullets my DGX looked like they had the light of God on them compared to his 458 and 375 bullets they looked like just a bushel basket of stuff from who knows what make or how old (soft, solids, lead, copper, and he uses this shit to defend his life and hasnt got killed yet. Its mainly about shot placement, but we all like to have the best and the greatest stuff ever built, even though it probably doesnt make that big a deal.

I want a bullet that is solid copper that expands from 500-3500fps perfectly, and has super high b.c. and doesnt fowl my bbl. and shoots in the same hole everytime even if I dont aim.

I love the insinuations as to who people think are who.

Eles. I owned one of Selous rifles (sold by Holts a couple of years ago in London) and played a bit with it. Have some of his notes etc that were never published. Selous couldn’t take a frontal brain shot with his .461. That feat became possible only after he got a .303 (and he published to that effect). He also notes he lost two good bulls when the .461 failed to drive through the front leg on one and presumably hit the zygomatic arch on the other – it was a side brain shot from a dodgy angle. Selous never went back to the big bores once he had discovered the .303 - So the 1880’s hammer head was no more effective than the modern ones-

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
I love the insinuations as to who people think are who.

OK, I will go out on a limb and guess you are referring D.F. congratulating Ganyana on his new position at Hornady. I guess it is you who has the position at Hornaday, and not Ganyana?

Mr. Fulson is not the first to confuse you two. Several years ago I had an older P.H. from Zimbabwe tell me that he believed that "Ganyana" was the nom de plume(maybe alter-ego is more fitting) of Don Heath.

I have wondered if this PH was correct as Ganyana sent me a email from an email address that I believed was yours. I guess I was mistaken.

So I am left wondering, who is "Ganyana"?

Jason- I work for Norma Precision and my email is don.heath@norma.cc if anybody wants to talk to me. I used to be the editor of African Hunter magazine - a position now held by my friend Ira Larivers.

When the new book from Rowland ward comes out authored by Ganyana, I think it will muddy the waters even more. I was not mature family man hunting in the Zambezi Valley as a contemporary of John (Pondoro) Taylor or Ian Nyschens in the 1940's and 50's

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
to all

Sorry for stinking up this thread.

Perry

Good man!!!

Brett

I for one am thankful for Hornady and their interest in the 'African ammunition" line.

Especially in the component arena and offering loaded ammunition for 1/2 or less then the price of their competitors.

Their brass is of good quality and I hope they will offer 375 H&H Flanged Mag in their future lines.

Competition is great and those who have sponsers have an obligation to their sponsers. Their involvement with their sponsers and feedback for using the products only benefit us all.

I like all the choices and just beware of the sponser affiliation when deciding which product to use.

I kind of learned the hard way on Dakota Arm rifles when they were a sponser of some well known TV hunting show. The ordering and waiting for these rifles to be built were a nightmare.

Just do your research and utilize the wealth of information on this website, like the original poster of this subject is doing, and the choice is yours.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
I'm not sure dirt is a good test for performance on live game, unless shooting a golem.

John

.
.
. Is that a Golem as in Lord of the Rings type golem

Now i forgot what I was going to post .. Thanks for the laugh John , I needed that ......

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
I'm not sure dirt is a good test for performance on live game, unless shooting a golem.

John

.

Methinks more likely a Terry Pratchet fan.

Oh, and dirt is more forgiving than elephants

What would you guys compare an elephants bones/skull to if you were comparing it to a like material? Dense wood, soft steel, hard steel, etc...?

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
What would you guys compare an elephants bones/skull to if you were comparing it to a like material? Dense wood, soft steel, hard steel, etc...?

Perry

Perry,
The only like material will be: Elephant
You will get nowhere with any other comparison.

Hopefully the DGS is a better solid than the DGX is a soft.
Of course no one in his right mind would consider shooting an elephant with a DGX "fragmentation eXpander."
Fragging an elephant is a horrible thought.

No good will come of fragging buffalo either, though with all the mud on a dagga boy, dirt has some applicability as a severe test of softs for buffalo.

Maybe a little off topic but to Bretts question I have seen lots of ads lately on the new Hornady (TSX Copy it appears) I have no ax to grind with anyone but have used the Barnes TSX a lot and find it never fails. I will continue to use it. Why change. Also, it seems like a virtual copy of the Barnes bullet. Is there no patent, etc. to apply here?

quote:

Originally posted by BigBBear:
Maybe a little off topic but to Bretts question I have seen lots of ads lately on the new Hornady (TSX Copy it appears) I have no ax to grind with anyone but have used the Barnes TSX a lot and find it never fails. I will continue to use it. Why change. Also, it seems like a virtual copy of the Barnes bullet. Is there no patent, etc. to apply here?

Do you know the name? It seems a knock off for sure. I'm with you. I'm sold on Barnes, but if someone builds a better mouse trap who am I to argue? I think they are an alloy rather than pure copper. Other than that I'm not sure. PS what mags and months have you seen the adds?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
I'm not sure dirt is a good test for performance on live game, unless shooting a golem.

John

.

Methinks more likely a Terry Pratchet fan.

Oh, and dirt is more forgiving than elephants

True, but you wouldn't use an expander on a pachy would you? Not that the test was without merit, I just don't think it would be an adequate comparison to live game. Using a buff for an example, 4-6 feet of penetration can be had with a TSX, but I don't think I have ever seen one go through 6 feet of dirt. Come to think of it, as tough as elephant skull is, I never seen a solid go through 3 feet of dirt either.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

Do you know the name? It seems a knock off for sure. I'm with you. I'm sold on Barnes, but if someone builds a better mouse trap who am I to argue? I think they are an alloy rather than pure copper. Other than that I'm not sure. PS what mags and months have you seen the adds?

Brett

Hornady has been advertising it as the "GMX"
as in: "Gilding Metal eXpanding"
It is made of a type of brass!

Plastic ballistic tip and monometal gilding metal instead of copper like Barnes Tipped-TSX.

What advantage to use gilding metal instead of copper?
Less fouling?
Will the metallurgy of gilding metal allow any other advantage in more reliable expansion and retained weight ... or will it be worse?



http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=792

************************************************
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Gilding metal is a copper alloy, comprising 95% copper and 5% zinc. Technically, it is a brass.

Gilding metal is used for various purposes, including the jackets of bullets, driving bands on some artillery shells[1], as well as enamelled badges and other jewellery

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
I'm not sure dirt is a good test for performance on live game, unless shooting a golem.

John

.

Methinks more likely a Terry Pratchet fan.

Oh, and dirt is more forgiving than elephants

True, but you wouldn't use an expander on a pachy would you? Not that the test was without merit, I just don't think it would be an adequate comparison to live game. Using a buff for an example, 4-6 feet of penetration can be had with a TSX, but I don't think I have ever seen one go through 6 feet of dirt. Come to think of it, as tough as elephant skull is, I never seen a solid go through 3 feet of dirt either.

John

His point was that the dirt ain't going to stop you to strawberry jam, even if your bullet fails.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

His point was that the dirt ain't going to stop you to strawberry jam, even if your bullet fails.

How very true, dirt is most dangerous when you are experiencing a parachute failure.

John

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
What would you guys compare an elephants bones/skull to if you were comparing it to a like material? Dense wood, soft steel, hard steel, etc...?

Perry

A fair question...and no simple answer.

Traditionally Charlie Haley (our Police forensics man) and I have used an elephant front leg bone backed by wet newspaper. - Unfortunately, the dryness of the bone has a great effect on how well bullet punch through it. A bone more than a week or so old is much easier to shoot through than a real bone.

Charlie obtained a whole bunch of condemed ceramic balistic plates. They were suposed to stop 7.62x39 ( some did ) We obtained a whole bunch of nylon packing sacks. and put 4" of sacking in front of the plates and then 6" of sacking behind the plate - followed by our usual wet paper.

This had the advantage over a leg bone in that it was repeatable (every bone varies in size age etc). Unfortunately the plates are pretty much flat so they do not simulate the usual cause of big bore failure - bullets hitting the bone on the curve and deflecting or tumbling.

Anyway, Known performers went straight through.
Known dodgy rounds failed. (eg PMP solids from the .375 only penetrated 4 out of five tries)

Unfortuantely the Zimbabwe police bought better balistic plates and our source of free material dried up!

The question of penetration on ele is always about a poor angle shot. From a clasic broadside or straight on, the bullet actually has (relatively) little to impede it. You could quite safely use a Bares TSX out of your .416 for those shots.

Things go wrong and bullets fail when somebody gets the shot wrong - like the ele has his head up and the appie PH puts the bullet through the tusk and into the brain (we had three failures on this exact shot in the last 5 years). In a way this is why we see so many bullet failures on the Proficiency exam- Candidates are often forced to make poor angle shots- far more so than clients or even the PH backing said client.

If anybody comes up with a scientifically correct and repeatable test media...I would love to know