A bit of a thread worn theme, but curious if there is any current season experience with the new Hornady bullets in terms of them holding together on thick skinned game? Again, looking for input on the current Dangerous Game series bullets, not the older Hornady's.

The solids... They are splitting open around the fold in the steel jacket to form the meplat.

Somewhat worse than the encaspsulated...Steve H took one more bullet to drop an ele late last year than Connie Brooks - due to bullets tearing open.

Seen a couple of others since that have done the same thing.

Not seen any softs in use.

That does not sound good...

Does not sound good at all. I am leaving in one week and am depending on the DG solids as my elephant medicine.

Hi Mike
As you are aware, Hornady is a sponsor of our two TV shows so this may be perceived as a biased opinion. But, it is based on a ton of filming and hunting with the new Hornady stuff, and it has been flawless in the field thus far. We try to dig out as many bullets as possible for the Hornady boys,especially the ones recovered from the big stuff, and both the PH's in the field, and the tech boys at Hornady have liked what they have seen so far. Ganyana referred to a Steve H in his post. I do not know who steve H. is, but I know for sure it is not Steve Hornady, as he has not taken a elephant to this point. Too crazy about buff I think. I can, of course, only speak to our personal experience with the bullets we shoot and recover from our own hunting,as well as the clients using Hornady bullets that we film,but that is one hell of a lot of game during our non-stop safari hunting \ filming schedule. Great stuff in MHO.
I hope Ganyana's new position at Norma Bullets is working out well.

i have been using both in my .450
i have also guided a few clients with the hornady ammo in the last year or so ...

i have recovered 6 dgx softs this year from buffalo and 5 did very well the 6th went through the shoulderblade and a rib then broke up as it went through the heart and lungs so even though it broke up , it went through some very hard bone and ended up making quite a mess of the lungs and a big piece of the jacket was in the heart .

josh spies used my double on a buffalo and we recovered both softs more or less intact ...the buffalo died ! josh also shot a tuskless with my double and dgs bulletts one was recovered and the other went clear through side to side ...

harry sager hunted with me and took an ele bull and buffalo , we recovered three dgs bulletts by chopping the ele skull , all three were intact and two had reached their mark ...he was using a 450/400 on his buff he used 4 dgx bulletts same calibre , first two on the shoulder and penetrated and did great , last two were as the bull disappeared into the bush so were from behind , one broke on the ball of the hip , the other was intact and in the main gut so didnt pass through any bone ....

steve reis killed a bull with me in may (ele) his first shot was too low and we took that bullett out of the chest cavity , the bull had its head well down when he shot so that bullett had to go through that hard bone between the tusks . his third and 4th bullets killed the animal and neither were recovered.

as far as the solids i would use them anytime , i have been using them for the last season and a half with great success .i have not had any of the splitting that ganyana talks of ...who is steve h?

mike i guess the long and the short of it is that the solids have done well for me , those that i have recovered have been intact ...the softs have done well in the case that they dont hit very heavy bone , in which case they do break up some .

Since all opinions posted are anecdotal rather than R&D under controlled conditions, I would tend to listen to Dave or Ivan, as they would clearly have more and varied experience with the Hornady loads, due simply to the quantity of DG hunting they conduct in a single season for their TV and Video productions, which Hornady sponsors. Their experience far exceeds the occasional PH/hunters experience of a few animals or a few hunts wherein the client has selected Hornady ammunition.

The tendency to bad mouth a product based upon a single or limited experience is one of the most disruptive issues in the safari industry. Hornady has produced DG ammo at a dramatically more affordable price than its competition. That fact alone should cause all to view negative comments with a very critical eye.

Disclaimer: Don't work for Hornady and have yet to use any of their DG ammo.

mike ,
thanks this thread got me thinking ...and looking up my scratchings !!! this is from the last two seasons.

heres what i have found , based on the fact that no two go in the same direction and no two encounter the same bone tissue combination , so not really a scientific answer ..

DGX
the calibres i have seen shoot the dgx are
375
450 3 and a quarter
450/400
416
i have not included plains game shot with either

43 bulletts recovered
31 mushroomed and appeared intact (i dont have a scale)
6 looked more or less intact but abstract shape not mushroomed
6 complete breakup.

DGS
the calibres i have seen the dgs shoot are
450 3 and a quarter
450/400
375
416
458

28 bulletts recovered
22 intact no bend or misshape
3 slightly deformed
2 bent

all these are bulletts recovered from buffalo and elephant ...

before you all say that i shoot my clients animals too much let me say at least 90% are clients bullets

So we have respected parties on both side of the issue -- made all the more difficult to sort out given that each side has an affiliation with a major ammunition manufacturer including the ammunition in question. Will be interesting to see if others weigh in. Sort of all leaves me scratching my head.

MJines
Your response is insulting the character of these two gentlemen who tried to answer your question as honestly, and with some proof, as possible.

Perry

Must be hot in South Texas, get in out of the Sun.

Both are respected and both have an affiliation with an ammunition manufacturer. Those are facts. One said the bullets are not performing the other said they are. That pretty well covers the spectrum. Nothing I said was disrepectful. Take a chill pill.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
MJines
Your response is insulting the character of these two gentlemen who tried to answer your question as honestly, and with some proof, as possible.

Perry

I don't think he is insulting anyone. We have two diametrically opposed reviews. It is also a fact that both parties work for competing ammo producers. I thought MJines comment was factual, to the point and respectful.

465H&H

gentlemen , i am not at all offended ... yes hornady sponsor our TV shows and they have adverts on there to promote their product ... that does not mean that me or any other of the team will lie about performance ... i outlined all the failures as well.

my integrity obligates that i tell the truth , if was bad i would have said so ... just fyi , i would be happy to post a similar reply on any of the ammo that my clients have shot ...i merely posted facts not opinions ...

my clients have extensively used triple shoks,i use barnes banded solids in my .577, i see a lot of trophy bonded sledgehammer etc etc
sorry if this was not what you are after , i was just trying to answer the question .. here it is again ...

" but curious if there is any current season experience with the new Hornady bullets in terms of them holding together on thick skinned game? Again, looking for input on the current Dangerous Game series bullets, not the older Hornady's."

MJines
Ivan Carter answered your questions with as much field observation as he has obtained yet you speculate that it may not be true because of his affiliation with Hornady. That is considered disrespectful the way I way raised. By posting the scratching head you wonder if it is true.
So he may be telling the truth or he may just be trying to sell ammo huh???

Not too hot here just well mannered.


Perry

So Perry, if Ivan is telling the truth is Ganyana lying?

I have no reason to question the honesty, veracity and truthfulness of the observations offered by both Ganyana and Ivan regardless of their affiliations. I am quite confident that they are both offering an accurate perspective on what they have observed both good and bad. Fact is that those observations are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum and they both do represent ammunition manufacturers. I confess that puzzles me. It has nothing to do with my opinions of the truthfulness of the observations -- just a recognition of the fact that the observations of two knowledge folks are 180 degrees apart. Sorry you choose to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but anytime I hear conflicting opinions from people I respect that gives me pause; also makes me want to seek out additional information. I however in no way called into question the veracity of either person nor has my respect for either in any way been diminished by their observations.

Sincerely,

Your Ill Mannered Neighbor to the North

Mr Carter,

I found your post extremely informative and what I believe would be non bias. It appeared well presented.
There are not many here that have the first hand opportunity or the fortitude to go to the lenghts to offer this data (searching for the spent projectiles). Making your living as a PH certainley provides you with a larger data sampling than any of us could ever develop as individual hunters.
Thanks again; I enjoy reading your posts.

EZ

Mike,
Which rifles are you taking across the pond this year? Beside the new 500 Jeffery?

Ivan thanks for the feedback, based on what you have seen how would you rate the DGX as a Lion load?

Perry,

IMHO, if there is any disrepect occuring it is the disrespect you are showing Mike.

John

It's not disrespectful to question conflicting reports.

My new double from Heym is regulated with this ammo. So I for one am extremely interested in hearing field reports good or bad.

Just for the record, I am sure Mike meant no disrespect,and none was taken here. The data Ivan and I have observed is from recovered bullets,LOTS OF RECOVERED BULLETS. Hornady has always asked for honest feedback from our PH friends and hunting clients who are shooting their product. Again, I can only speak to the recovered rounds we are holding in our hands, but I will and do trust my life several times each year to the fact that I believe Hornady bullets can and will take a dangerous animal down before it has a chance to kill or hurt me or a member of our hunting party. Hornady is not the only great bullet out there, but I am very confident that time will show the new bullets to be effective and dependable for dangerous game.
But like Mike, I want to get some feedback from others out there shooting the product .

It is not too surprising that we can see conflicting reports. Sometimes a batch of bullets can get out that behave differently then other runs of the same bullets. This can be caused by slight differences in the make up, hardening etc of the jacket or core materials. I had this happen with some 550 grain Woodleigh solids. One batch shed their jackets while two other runs worked perfectly. I believe both parties honestly reported what they saw so the question still is why the difference and how wide spread is it.

465H&H

quote:

Ivan thanks for the feedback, based on what you have seen how would you rate the DGX as a Lion load?

i think it will do just fine ... lions are not heavy boned or thick skinned so i wouldnt think there will be any breakup at all ...

the dgx rounds i have recovered from plainsgame have performed well ...

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Mike,
Which rifles are you taking across the pond this year? Beside the new 500 Jeffery?

So far, my thinking is the .500 Jeffery and my Krieghoff .500 NE. Loading 535 grain bullets in the Jeffery and 570 grain bullets in the Krieghoff. Still plenty of time to change my mind though.

Mike and 465

Norma buys (and loads)Hornady bullets in vast quantities - And the only dangerous game ammo produced by Norma uses other peoples bullets...swift, Barnes and Woodleigh at this stage.

The old Horniday solids were some of the finest .458 bullets available and some of the few that would reliably stand up to .460 Weatherby velocities. Sadly, they strayed from what worked with the venture into the encapsulated bullets and whilst initially the new Steel jacketed bullets looked good, the test results from a few hunts last year were disapointing, and some of the test bullets we tried failed in test media - as stated both those that failed in media nd the ones I have seen recovered from elephants split along the stress fractures caused by forming the meplat. The same problem encountered in some of Ken Stuarts flat nosed solids as well.

What are the failure rates? Who knows. We tried 100 of a new type of solid on elephants two years ago on the proficiency exam- and one tumbled and one broke...(This years proficiency we will be testing a 'new model' of a solid). Is a 2% failure rate acceptable? It is probably no worse than Woodleigh and the earlier Barnes...

Can it be improved on? - Yes.

The steel jackets on Woodleighs are thicker than the Hornady, from the samples I've sectioned. What their hardness or temper might be of either I do not know, but one might guess that the Woodleigh is tougher.

It is tough to have your cake of easy effect on gun barrels and eat the cake of tough bullets too.

From the perspective of a "solid", I believe the best choice may be a tungsten carbide projectile in a polymer sabot. No wear on the barrel and a practically indestructible projectile in animal medium. The stuff is heavy though and you might have a very short projectile relative to current standards effecting twist and crimping into a polymer and so forth.

This reminds me of a similar situation a few years ago, with the bullet in question being the Nosler Accubond. I had bad luck with them on several deer, posted as much and yet no one else seemed to have a single hiccup while using them. My old friend Allen Day took some of them in 338 to Zimbabwe for use on plains game. They performed horribly, and he said so not only on the forums but in a letter to Nosler. You'd have thought he called the Pope something nasty.
One thing I've learned is that nothing is perfect and everything can and will fail if given enough opp's to do so.

If I am the one being disrespectful to MJines I appoligize to you sir. My thought is that if you ask someone's opinion and they give it backed up with fact and you intern state your not sure about the facts you are questioning their integrity. That question should be kept to yourself because you are essentially calling them a liar...are you not???

As far as Gayana goes he is apparently 180 wrong on "Steve H" and his elephant so I would say his info on the bullet used would be suspect also.

Does my position make sense or am I off here?

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
If I am the one being disrespectful to MJines I appoligize to you sir. My thought is that if you ask someone's opinion and they give it backed up with fact and you intern state your not sure about the facts you are questioning their integrity. That question should be kept to yourself because you are essentially calling them a liar...are you not???

As far as Gayana goes he is apparently 180 wrong on "Steve H" and his elephant so I would say his info on the bullet used would be suspect also.

Does my position make sense or am I off here?

Perry

Relax dude. None of this matters anyway. It's just for entertainment.

Hmmm...I am not biased at all here but have to say that I used the "old" Hornady solids in 458 lott factory ammo for two buffs and was more than pleased....I am going to ZW in short time and actually considering using that ammo (based on confidence) instead of Norma PH....

WILL!!! The sound of reason!!! Thank God!

Although I've been a hunter and shooter for better than 45 years, I am a recent member of the AR Forum. It seemed in the past that whenever I logged on to obtain some information about a caliber, rifle, makers, etc, the thread I followed denigrated into argument, name calling, and worse. Guys, it's just hunting and shooting...it's supposed to be fun. There are obviously differing levels of age, skills, and experience represented here on the forum. Take from the discussions what you can or want, and let the rest pass. Most information presented here is opinion rather than fact, so if it's not the same opinion as yours, consider it and move on. Hell, if we all had thee same opinion, there would only be one maker of rifles, one maker of bullets.....what fun would that be? Relax and learn.

From the figures supplied by ivan carter, all projectiles worked as they were recovered from I assume dead animals. It does appear that approx 10% of the DGX did not hold together. That's all I can deduce from the stats provided.

Mike,
I think this is a great opportunity. I think you should take some of both and you could provide a real field test and provide some much needed first hand comparisons.

This is a little frightening:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/2741052411

I'm not sure dirt is a good test for performance on live game, unless shooting a golem. My take on the data is the DGS is a good performer, the DGX does well as long it doesn't hit the heavy bone.

Seems like the buffalo king is still the TSX.

John

Ivan,

What's your opinion of the Hornady DGX compared to the Barnes TSX?

All,

Am I loosing my mind and dreaming up new bullets or did someone recently come out with a copper alloy/lead free bullet similar to the TSX. I want to say it was Hornady, but damned if I can't find it in any of my magazines! Before I was just dreaming of women and dangerous game. Now I'm dreaming of bullets! My condition is worsening all the time!

Brett

I shot these in june 29 2009 in Mozambique

Hippo 458 lott DGX, DGS the first shot was with the DGX I hit the hippo in the head but it was a little low and at a steep angle down But it messed him up I assume it exploded, Whats left of the bullet has to be in the skull boil out tank so I never saw it. I never recovered the solids either but it killed him dead. (for all you guys who say why were you using softs on a hippo, Solids only work if you hit exact bullseye I didnt so the soft worked followed by solids.

buffalo 458lott DGX DGS worked Good
bushbuck 458lott DGX DEAD!!!!!
Blesbok 458lott DGX DEAD!!!!!


The PIC is the DGX AND DGS in 458lott & 2200fps 24.5" bbl using just about max load with Varget

The dgx i shot into the buffalo shoulder is was pulled out of the opposite side under the skin during the caping. The bullet hit some bone you can see how it mushroomed out more to one side the bone side.

The Dgs was retreived in the stomach The buffalo charged and I shot straight on but he was thrashing his head up and down so I aimed for the body. I dont think it hit any Major bones. I shot one more shot but he was in the brush and I could not tell you were I hit him and I did not watch them skin it like I should have to see damage and trauma.

They performed good but next time I will have my 500j with a detachable scope (i just had iron sights, buffalo were scarce so I carried my lott w/ scope for a longer shot, turns out it was only 35yds but no 500j with me . I want more destruction on impact, The Ph did say he was impressed with the reaction of the buffalo on the first shot, he said with his 458win mag they just keep going and faster!

In testing the only thing I noticed was the steel jacket is to hard it doesnt roll back it tends to peel then crack off.

If you want to see pics of the animals, go to Buffalo hunt in Mozambique by Bijoucreek under Hunt Report. You can see some entrance wounds if you look close.

No Good!
Even a "dirt shoot" will tell you that.
GSC HV, Barnes TSX, or Woodleigh RNSP would be better in .510-caliber.

.458 bullets allow many more good choices for softs, like North Fork and Swift.

Maybe the .458/500-grain DGX is not so bad as the .510/570-grain DGX?
***************************************************************

".510/570-grain DGX SOFT: SCARY!"

I think it is a fragile bullet, despite (or because of) copper-washed thin steel jacket around the non-bonded lead core.

Better not push it any faster than 2150 fps MV,
nor shoot anything inside of 50 yards with it,
if 2150 fps MV max is allowed,
or it will most likely go "Lion Load" on you!

I was interested in digging the DGX out of the soft earth berm, again,
after having seen what happened to them on my previous range trip.
Shot into an area that was gravel-free, they were most often found inside 1 foot depth of soft soil, having completely shed the core, within inches of entry.
OK, the bigger lead fragments might have gone deeper than the jackets.
Not live game, but a pretty soft landing.



All these targets and recovered bullets came from 50 yards.

First was starting to file in an open sight, for the slowest load in 500 Mbogo No.2 (100 grains of Varget with filler, bottom most photo below).

Next, was a little faster with 500 Mbogo No.1 (119 to 123 grains of H4350).

There may be hope of keeping the core in the jacket (occasionally, rarely) if impact is less than 2100 fps.

@2364 fps MV, 2226 fps Impact Velocity: Unleaded!
@2343 fps MV, 2206 fps IV,
there was a little piece of the tail end of the core found in the center jacket, of the the three, in the photo directly below,
just for example of the mayhem:








With 123-grains load of H4350, the shot patterns started to look like a group: 1-inch, center-to-center, at 50 yards, for 3 shots.
I adjusted 4 MOA to the left, and the final shot landed about 3/4" from where I was aiming.
Must have overshot the adjustment on that Leupold 2.5X. Wink

My lot of H4350 must be slow in the 500 Mbogo:
(79 degrees F today at high noon. Mildest summer in Kentucky in a long time. Global cooling?)

119 grains has some shake: 2321 fps MV
121 grains is a full case: 2343 fps MV
123 grains is mildly compressed, with no drop tube use: 2364 fps, under 50K psi, maybe. Wink

Here is 100grains of Varget plus 5 grains of Dacron: 2230 fps MV (and just over 40K psi)





Maybe 115 gains of Varget with no filler will go faster. I reckon so! Big Grin

Any of these loads could be used directly in the 500 Jeffery, with the same velocity results,
since the 500 Mbogo and 500 Jeffery are near identical in case capacity.
Of course, the 500 Jeffery with greater base diameter, will suffer greater bolt thrust.
Better make sure the action is not undercut too much at the front.
Also better make sure the 500 Jeffery brass is up to the task,
and the throat of the chamber is adequate.

500 Jeffery Owners: Better not go any higher than the above chronographed 500 Mbogo loads in a 500 Jeffery.
Forget the 115-grain Varget load with 570-grainers, though you can go higher than 100 grains, your call. Wink

No worries with the 500 Mbogo.
It will give ballistics of the most sedate 500 Nitro Express 3" (sub 40K psi pressures to boot).
It will also equal the most fiendishly hotrodded .505 Gibbs, if both are housed in a man-portable sporting rifle.
It will beat the 500 A-Square by either higher velocity or lower pressure, or both, if hairs are being split,
by those angels dancing on the head of a pin.
450-grainers at 2800-2900 fps
535-grainers at 2600-2700 fps
570-grainers at 2500-2600 fps
600-grainers at 2400-2500 fps
650-grainers at 2300-2400 fps
700-grainers at 2200-2300 fps
750-grainers at 2100-2200 fps
Something like that.

I am taking the Hornady solids on my hunt into the Selous in 3 weeks...

Mike