quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mac:
I just noticed you are departing this thread. May I ask why you did not comment on my thread of Mark's videos? Several times I mentioned your comments of Mark's "stupid habit" of kicking dirt at a hippo and wanted you to reply as to the use of the word "Habit." I'm sorry to see you go but I would enjoy a reply to my question as the incident you referred to only happened once in the 16 years the videos covered.

Cal I really don’t want to re-join the multitude of hero worship where MS is concerned but in an effort to allay your concern for the error of my opinion on MS’s “HABIT” which I erroneously scribed in the post you quote. The fact is, I failed to proof read that post before posting it, but once posted it was the next day before I got back on the net and it would have been viewed as cowing to the posts that followed if I had changed it then.

What I meant to write was, “His habit of doing things like kicking dirt in the face of a hippo to insure a charge!” The “HABIT” was not the kicking dirt in the face of the hippo but the purposely causing charges when they are not necessary by purposely invading the fight space of a wounded Buffalo or Hippo to insure a charge, so he can shoot it for the film. Hope that answers you question, but if not that is my answer none the less. Cal if you think that is back-tracking it is not. I meant to re-write that passage but forgot it and posted it.

On your survey of MS films your finding did not surprise me in the least! Your findings indicate what I have been saying all along.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas;

The films are:

1. 1990 Africa’s Black Death
2. 1992 Simba
3. 1992 Mbogo
4. 1995 Sudden Death
5. 1996 Death on the Run
6. 1998 Shot to Death
7. 2000 Death at My Feet
8. 2004 In the Face of Death
9. 2005 Death by the Ton
10.2006 Death Rush

What was needed was how many charges he caused, and of the shots he fired in your graphic, how many of those shots were fired on unnecessary forced charges?

In any event I doubt the number of shots MS fired on client’s animals would be very short of the number of shots taken by the average PH in twice the number of years.

The rank and file here, have a mistaken idea that I HATE MS, and that is not the case. In fact my opinion of MS was positive when I bought his first film, and I wanted to book with him, if for no other reason because, like me, he hunts totally with double rifles. However after buying the first four of his films, seeing how he approached downed buff and reading an interview with Mark in one of the in the paper. The article where he was bad mouthing the unarmed Peter Capstick calling him a coward because he got in the bed of the hunting car when a hippo charged out of the bush where the hunting party was stopped at a water hole. In that case Gordon Cundill, who was armed, immediately chambered a round in the chamber of his bolt rifle in anticipation of the impact of the unexpected charge.

By this time I had begun to see a pattern in his dealing with wounded and downed client’s buffalo in particular. It became quite clear that he seldom would take the client to the buffalo and tell him where to place his bullet to finish HIS buffalo. Instead he himself walked up to them so the buff could see his approach insuring a charge so he could shoot the buffalo. I fail to see how people can be so blind to what he does!

Some here sight PHs who let buffalo stiffen up, and/or become sick before the follow-up. I too dislike this except where bow hunting is concerned. I like to keep shooting till the animal is down or out of sight, then jog after them till the stop and turn to see if you are still following, then shoot them again. However IMO, initiating an unnecessary charge so the PH can shoot my animal wouldn’t fly well with me. I have zero problem with a PH firing back-up shots on my buffalo, but when he is down I will finish what I started, not the PH. Mark is the only PH I have ever seen works that way!

I also fail to see why anyone would be jealous of Mark, but it evident there are number of posters who see nothing wrong in his activities. That fact is what is amazing to me.

Suffice to say I disagree with Mark’s way of handling client’s animals, and it would have caused a real donnybrook if he had done this with a buffalo of mine. That will never happen however, because today I can’t afford to book with him, but when I could have, years ago, I didn’t because of his antics on camera.

Now, as I said before I was called out again I’m gone on this subject!

........................................................................BYE Again!

Mac
Thanks for a long awaited reply and explanation. i appreciate your effort in doing so.
Cal

quote:

With regard to plugging videos for Mark, I stated in my initial post I was not promoting videos. The thread's topic should be self-explanatory.

No mas pantalones!



Wow...I thought it was quite self-explanatory.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

Discussing MS here is futile. Neither side will be convinced that there is any merit to what the opposite has to say.

I agree, unfortunately

Maybe we should let the thread decide how it wants to die!

.........................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Maybe we should let the thread decide how it wants to die!

.........................................................................................

And as long as the Mark Sullivan Luvvy Luvvy Club continue to promote him here, we will continue to stand by our opinions of him.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...221009731#2221009731


I believe this is the letter Mark wrote to AR some time ago. The man's character shines as he only states facts from his viewpoint. He never attacks his attackers. I think that is noble of him.
Cheers, gents,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And as long as the Mark Sullivan Luvvy Luvvy Club continue to promote him here, we will continue to stand by our opinions of him.

Perhaps this could have been better, more nicely expressed as: "As long as people express particular opinions here giving their reasons, as is their right, other people will continue to express alternate opinions here giving their reasons, as is also their right."

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And as long as the Mark Sullivan Luvvy Luvvy Club continue to promote him here, we will continue to stand by our opinions of him.

Perhaps this could have been better, more nicely expressed as: "As long as people express particular opinions here giving their reasons, as is their right, other people will continue to express alternate opinions here giving their reasons, as is also their right."

That's fine, as long as they don't make up shit like Sullivan shoots buffalo with a 22 to incite a charge. Otherwise it's just a brunette v Redhead issue, or as I so adroitly put it, if someone were to film Sullivan walking on water, undoubtedly someone would pipe up and say "yeah, that's because he can't swim."...

quote:

That's fine, as long as they don't make up shit like Sullivan shoots buffalo with a 22 to incite a charge

-----------------------------------------------

.223

quote:

Originally posted by samir:

quote:

That's fine, as long as they don't make up shit like Sullivan shoots buffalo with a 22 to incite a charge

-----------------------------------------------

.223

Same shit different day. Do you have FACTUAL proof of this happening? Please no "hearsay" from the starboard butter-cutter (Navy term look it up).

"...I instruct my clients to always make the best possible shot. The indisputable fact is clients shoot poorly and nothing will ever change that reality..."

Here it is!
Straight from his own mouth!
That HIS clients are miserable shots

I could not have asked for a better proof what I have been saying all along.

A hunter who values HIS hunt, will NEVER hunt with some like Sullivan.

I suppose those who are incapable of killing their own animals hunt with him.

What some will do to destroy(try to and will not succeed)someone on pure lies,absolute disgrace....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jorge:

That's fine, as long as they don't make up shit like Sullivan shoots buffalo with a 22 to incite a charge. [QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with the importance of keeping to known, confirmed facts.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge: or as I so adroitly put it, if someone were to film Sullivan walking on water, undoubtedly someone would pipe up and say "yeah, that's because he can't swim."...

Hush jorge lets not get started on who can or cant walk on water. That could be another long thread right there.jc

Well, I am a Naval Aviator....

i thought you guys flew OVER water and avoided any contact if at all possible!

Just imagine Mark Sullivan being a pilot in the navy and doing the stupid things he does in front of the camera!

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jorge:

That's fine, as long as they don't make up shit like Sullivan shoots buffalo with a 22 to incite a charge. [QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with the importance of keeping to known, confirmed facts.

I could not agree more Ben but some seem to prefer to approach topics from an emotive base.
Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Just imagine Mark Sullivan being a pilot in the navy and doing the stupid things he does in front of the camera!

Been there, done that. Famous words "watch this"...

Hi friends,

I dont have read this thread the last days.
Only now, the last two minutes...
Some opinions are absolutly gr...

Im here with Mark Sullivan the last days and we had a lot of fun.
Many to tell, but I have no time.

I dont speak with him about internet-wars or so and I think he has no interessed at all in it.

We go out for an traditional fox hunt in an hour, tomorrow the same.
Here Im the professional hunter :-), but the Heym CEO is coming with us.

We go out with same brand new double rifles and in the evening we meet with the local hunters here and Mark will give some demonstrations...
Then we have all dinner togehter.

Maybe I will open an thread about the Heym event in this year and tell infos, post photos and more...
I will see.

I want to say by by in this therad, I have no more words and time for this (!) thread.

Sounds like great fun Frank! Looking forward to seeing all of you in two days.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Just imagine Mark Sullivan being a pilot in the navy and doing the stupid things he does in front of the camera!

Been there, done that. Famous words "watch this"...

Jorge,

The only stupid thing I ever did in an airplane was fly one on and off a carrier after the sun went down! As you well know from your years in the jets, daytime carrier ops were a blast and some of the most fun a man can have! But the first asshole in the history of Naval Aviation who stood up in the ready room and said: "Skipper, I think we can do this stuff at night" ... well, someone should have justifiably shot that sumbitch on the spot!!

Well, now that I think of it, there was this other stupid thing. Something to do with her calling the Admiral, Daddy or something! But we'll let that one go since it's a family show here!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. FM:

Maybe I will open an thread about the Heym event in this year and tell infos, post photos and more...

Look forward to it Frank!
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by capebuf:
The Mark Sullivan haters here give the ani-hunting people more power,what a complete shame.

I don't hate MS, just his lax methods. He gives the Peta crowd loads of ammo in two ways:

1. The amount of time between the wounding shot and no apparent rush to provide a finishing shot. Most everyone on this board would have continued to fire and could have shot 20 or 30 times in the time MS spent jawing while the lactic acids build in the meat. The locals don't care if their meat is gamey. All while providing the monologue in the next point.

2. He assumes that the animal has the cognitive abilities to hate MS for not shooting him sooner or often enough. What if the animal is tired and doesn't want to charge MS and die like a warrior. Maybe they should hire Cass Sunstein to represent them in a class action suit against MS and clients.

MS is free to do what he pleases, however he is causing significant harm to the clean kill crowd. It's a shame that some clients need to bring back a charge story at any cost. That's what MS caters to.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Just imagine Mark Sullivan being a pilot in the navy and doing the stupid things he does in front of the camera!

Been there, done that. Famous words "watch this"...

Jorge,

The only stupid thing I ever did in an airplane was fly one on and off a carrier after the sun went down! As you well know from your years in the jets, daytime carrier ops were a blast and some of the most fun a man can have! But the first asshole in the history of Naval Aviation who stood up in the ready room and said: "Skipper, I think we can do this stuff at night" ... well, someone should have justifiably shot that sumbitch on the spot!!

Well, now that I think of it, there was this other stupid thing. Something to do with her calling the Admiral, Daddy or something! But we'll let that one go since it's a family show here!!!

As a former Viking guy, most of my traps were at night. I NEVER got used to them. Even AAA wasn't nearly as puckering as no moon no horizon pitching deck traps...

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:

quote:

Originally posted by capebuf:
The Mark Sullivan haters here give the ani-hunting people more power,what a complete shame.

I don't hate MS, just his lax methods. He gives the Peta crowd loads of ammo in two ways:

1. The amount of time between the wounding shot and no apparent rush to provide a finishing shot. Most everyone on this board would have continued to fire and could have shot 20 or 30 times in the time MS spent jawing while the lactic acids build in the meat. The locals don't care if their meat is gamey. All while providing the monologue in the next point.

2. He assumes that the animal has the cognitive abilities to hate MS for not shooting him sooner or often enough. What if the animal is tired and doesn't want to charge MS and die like a warrior. Maybe they should hire Cass Sunstein to represent them in a class action suit against MS and clients.

MS is free to do what he pleases, however he is causing significant harm to the clean kill crowd. It's a shame that some clients need to bring back a charge story at any cost. That's what MS caters to.

Am I the only one that finds this post more than just a little ironic coming from a "Lifetime member of the National Trappers Association"?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Re: Original post by Minkman:

Am I the only one that finds this post more than just a little ironic coming from a "Lifetime member of the National Trappers Association"?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:

quote:

Originally posted by capebuf:
The Mark Sullivan haters here give the ani-hunting people more power,what a complete shame.

I don't hate MS, just his lax methods. He gives the Peta crowd loads of ammo in two ways:

1. The amount of time between the wounding shot and no apparent rush to provide a finishing shot. Most everyone on this board would have continued to fire and could have shot 20 or 30 times in the time MS spent jawing while the lactic acids build in the meat. The locals don't care if their meat is gamey. All while providing the monologue in the next point.

2. He assumes that the animal has the cognitive abilities to hate MS for not shooting him sooner or often enough. What if the animal is tired and doesn't want to charge MS and die like a warrior. Maybe they should hire Cass Sunstein to represent them in a class action suit against MS and clients.

MS is free to do what he pleases, however he is causing significant harm to the clean kill crowd. It's a shame that some clients need to bring back a charge story at any cost. That's what MS caters to.

Am I the only one that finds this post more than just a little ironic coming from a "Lifetime member of the National Trappers Association"?

Did I just hear someone say: "Oh ... Snap"!!!

Maybe it was just a shattering sound from the minkman's glass house!

Minkman, Mark follows up right after the first shot,he doesnt wait 20-30 minutes,did you learn that lie-rumour from one of the haters.Most will have a smoke after the first shot and wait,thats not the way to do it.One of the most laughable lies-rumours that I heard about Mark(started by the biggest hater of Mark on this site)and I will quote that hater that "Mark Sullivan charges a extra 10k to a client to have a buffalo charge for that hunt",an absolute slanderes lie.I told that to Mark and he couldnt stop laughing.Its a absolute disgrace that some will make up anything about Mark.Mark is a great PH and a 5 star guy I wouldnt be saying this if he wasnt.It pure jealousy.

Let me understand this.

• It's okay to shoot a Cape buffalo with an arrow and let him bleed out.
  
• It's okay to shoot a Cape buffalo with a pistol and hope that the bullet and the shooter's aim were both adequate to kill the beast - eventually.
  
• It's okay to shoot a Cape buffalo with a rifle and then 'take a smoke break' allowing time to go by while the animal gets sick and 'stiffens up' before eventually putting it out of its misery.
  
• It's not okay to shoot a Cape buffalo with a rifle and immediately approach it with the intent of having it charge before killing it.

Gentlemen, there's a bankruptcy of logic for you.

Amazingly, Sullivan's AR critics are not from PETA or the National Alliance of Vegans or the Buffalo Adoption Collective, but are instead other African hunters who think nothing of killing Cape buffalo in a variety of ways they deem ethical. Well guys, if you're that concerned about a buffalo's welfare and feelings, how about not shooting the goddamn animal in the first place? I'm sure it will appreciate the gesture.

Look, hunting dangerous game happens to be brutal at its core. The animal isn't asking to be shot, and believe it or not, it's going to suffer whether you leave it to 'get sick' or goad it into charging. I know several hunters who privately disparage the use of bow & arrow on dangerous game yet they give those PHs and hunters who enjoy it a 'pass'. On the other hand, those self-same hunters virtually foam at the mouth when mention of Sullivan comes up and think nothing of slinging apoplectic barbs in his direction.

Why? The result is the same. The suffering is comparable. So apart from Sullivan hunting in a daring fashion that few of us have the nerve to emulate, why the hypocritical distinction?

In a world full of raging anti-hunters, it's about time we hunters stop raging against our own.

KPete very well said.....

Its plain to see that MS is to some AR members as Obama is to the his fans. I never said 20-30 minutes, nor did I say they pay extra for charges on video. His clients know what he offers and that's why they go. I sold my MS tapes here a few years ago because of his slow torture of animals. I can see having a smoke and letting a buff that's out of sight set up. What I have a problem with is watching a buff struggle to get to his front legs and then waiting to see if he can get all the way up or get a little faster on two legs after walking up slowly for thirty yards. I guess I'm wrong for thinking that the client should have shot again at thirty yards. If he was really that concerned about the animals feelings, he wouldn't show this lack of respect for a resource on his tapes. Its kinda like watching Obama walking around on a putting green.

Say what you will about trapping but everything I trap is dead within 10 seconds. It sounds like a little envy out there, and I'm sure you got a great pedigree Todd. But without a gun, guide, tracker, skinner and cook, your wood craft would be next to non-existent. Whereas I could live and eat well for years in the woods with some wire and a teaspoon.

Trapping - the Worlds oldest profession, who do you think paid the first prostitutes. Think they wanted meat, they wanted fur!

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:
Its plain to see that MS is to some AR members as Obama is to the his fans. I never said 20-30 minutes, nor did I say they pay extra for charges on video. His clients know what he offers and that's why they go. I sold my MS tapes here a few years ago because of his slow torture of animals. I can see having a smoke and letting a buff that's out of sight set up. What I have a problem with is watching a buff struggle to get to his front legs and then waiting to see if he can get all the way up or get a little faster on two legs after walking up slowly for thirty yards. I guess I'm wrong for thinking that the client should have shot again at thirty yards. If he was really that concerned about the animals feelings, he wouldn't show this lack of respect for a resource on his tapes. Its kinda like watching Obama walking around on a putting green.

Say what you will about trapping but everything I trap is dead within 10 seconds. It sounds like a little envy out there, and I'm sure you got a great pedigree Todd. But without a gun, guide, tracker, skinner and cook, your wood craft would be next to non-existent. Whereas I could live and eat well for years in the woods with some wire and a teaspoon.

Trapping - the Worlds oldest profession, who do you think paid the first prostitutes. Think they wanted meat, they wanted fur!

Minkman,

Welcome to the ranks of whimpy hunters. I am a proud member as well.

Apparently we are just "killers". Not hunters, as Mark says.

He apparently does not like killing - he states so himself in his open letter to all of us here.

He likes to repeat that people say he has balls the size of grapefruits.

Apparently one gets those when one wounds an animal, and while the animal is dying, and close to his last breath, Mark bravely approaches it with his double rifle, and dispatches it as it struggles to charge him.

THAT my friend, is how one gets balls the size of grapefruits.

What a bloody nutter!

I like to keep my balls their natural size, thank you.

I don't need to make an endless Hollywood style charges to prove my manhood.

Minkman I never said that YOU were the one that made that laughable rumour about Mark.You need to read it carefully.You said that Marks slow torture of animals is why you sold your tapes.All due respect sir but you are very misinformed."Think for yourself dont make others think for you or sway you".The haters here have no clue on what they are talking about,its like watching a good comedy show.Its just plain slander and jealousy,there replies are pure childish,many here know that but will not respond...

Talk about denial, for anyone to contend that what Mark does is less humane than trapping, c'mon gents . . . and to further suggest that what Mark does leaves the sport of hunting more open to attack by groups like PETA than trapping . . . gimme a break.

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:


Say what you will about trapping but everything I trap is dead within 10 seconds. It sounds like a little envy out there, and I'm sure you got a great pedigree Todd. But without a gun, guide, tracker, skinner and cook, your wood craft would be next to non-existent. Whereas I could live and eat well for years in the woods with some wire and a teaspoon.

Hmmm ... interesting you would respond only to my comments when two others called out your hypocrisy before I chimed in, and a fourth joined the party afterwards. But that's fine. I'm your Huckleberry!

By the way, your comment about my inability to survive "without gun, guide, tracker, skinner, and cook" and my lack of wood craft being non-existent is interesting. You certainly have me mixed up with a different Todd Williams. Understandable. There's a few of us around. I'm a country boy, through and through. Always have been, always will be. Hey, get this one; I grew up running trap lines on my family's property back before I was old enough to be trusted with a gun unsupervised, except for my trusty Red Rider 200 shot, range model air rifle with a compass in the stock of course!!

Wrote my very first letter to my congressional representative back while I was in college in the early 80's protesting Texas based U.S. House Representative member Charlie Wilson's bill to ban trapping! Oh the things you just don't know about a person when your only contact with them is a little internet forum, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:

I sold my MS tapes here a few years ago because of his slow torture of animals.

By the way, how much money did you get for selling those MS tapes you so adamantly objected to depicting the slow torture of animals? You would think an honorable man such as yourself would have destroyed them instead of profiting from the on sale of such objectionable filth!

Still want to play?

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:

Trapping - the Worlds oldest profession, who do you think paid the first prostitutes. Think they wanted meat, they wanted fur!

WTF

What type of meat are we talking about?

Thank goodness for the voices of reason responding on this thread. Otherwise, I'm not sure I would've looked, other than insomnia and getting mad about the repeated images and videos from Boston pissing me off.

Todd, I don't think I've "bought" you a drink yet, but I will or deliver one at the next North Texas get together. I know some alphas should never associate closely. I also know some can make best friends, as long as boundaries are recognized. You acknowledged the data behind Cal's analysis was not what many here thought of Mark Sullivan.

KPete, if only people would read/listen to the logical, intelligent statements you make here, I think this thread would be shorter. I'm sure you have much better success presenting your opinion in person, regardless of profession, than on the Internet.

I also think it might be more than likely that on videos of other well known PHs, we don't know if a time lag for on follow up occurred with editing. That is not an accusatory statement, but more of an inquiry. Not to go off an a tangent, but TV bow hunting does more to hurt our sport than Sullivan's videos available by purchase.

In the end, we'd be very boring if we all were the same. Thank goodness we all love the chase of our passion. Lets never forget that.