Will's light 458 Win got me to thinking.

Any comments concerning the use of 450gr bullets in the 458 Win Mag for ele?

Given a SD of over .3 and the fact that it is no trouble to get 2200 with RL-15 it seems like a very good bullet for the WM.

Any comments from the experts??

Brett

Brett,
I am no expert and have never owned a .458 (have shot a few), but if I owned a .458WM I would use a 450gr GS FN for a solid and then a good 450gr soft. This weight sees to be the way to go with the WM.

I would stay away from 500gr bullets as they seem to be too long, although some guys get it worked out and reach 2100fps. I reckon 465gr is as heavy as I would go.

Just my 2c with no real .458 experience!

I've often wondered why the .458 WM was saddled with such a heavy bullet; the case is none too big to start with. At 460 gn the SD matches that of many successful African cartridges such as the .465 and the .470. Given the improvements in SN bullets, I imagine 450 gn would be adequate.

Except for the desire to use a mono solid, not sure why one would choose a 450 gr. bullet. It is no problem getting 2150 fps in a 22" barrel with traditional 500 gr. bullets anymore.

I don't know the history of mono bullets but supposedly the 500 gr. mono would not be or was not stable in flight.

I think at one point there was some question whether the 500 gr. 475 bullet would be stable but I've shot those into paper from almost point blank to 25 yards and never saw any hint of keyholing.

Now that Barnes(?) has a 500 gr. .458 bullet, I wonder if they have experienced any instability.

Without dragging out my John Taylor lecture, always go for the heavy bullet. If you can get it.

There have been a number of 450 grain GS FN's used on elephant. The results have been...very acceptable. I have a number of boxes available if anyone is looking for some.

Will,

I'm showing my Ray-like tendencies here.

I really didn't realize that 2150 could be had with current powders.

What's your favorite receipt?

Brett

Gentlemen

Could someone please tell me what GS FN stands for?

I thought it was Grand Slam Flat Nose

Thanks

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Will,

I'm showing my Ray-like tendencies here.

I really didn't realize that 2150 could be had with current powders.

What's your favorite receipt?

Brett

I got this one off the Hornady web site:
75 gr. Varget, old Brass encapsulated 500 gr. solid. (74.5 gr. gave me ~2150 fps.)

78 gr. Varget, 500 gr. Speer AGS

Have new and old, old Hornady's but haven't made it to the range yet.

You are probably as good or better off with A2230 as per Accurate Powders web site. It supposedly gives 2150 fps at relatively low pressure, and the ball powder isn't compressed. I have a bunch loaded up that I need to go try.

GS Custom flat nose monolithic solids

Deja Vu.....Barnes Manual #3 Page 718.....

Survey says....

.458 x 450 RN Solid

63 Grains H4198 = 2284 fps

That's a really old solid shank bronze bullet.

I'm guessing 2300 would be a no brainer with a modern bullet....

If you don't own the rifle yet - buy a Lott or something with a bit bigger case and make life easier.

If you want to shoot a loooooong bullet you're screwed with the Win Mag.

Thanks Will,

Mac,

I'm thinking of converting a M98 I have lying around to 458WM as a back up for my double when ele hunting.

If it's really possible to get 2150ish with a 500gr bullet you could have both a very efective ele caliber and a light, easy to carry rifle. Nice combnation.

B

Those .458" x 500 grain Bullets don't have to be super long. We make them in four different alloys depending on the application. If you want a really short 500 grain monometal bullet I can get them to you.

Brett you should use that Double as a back-up for your M98!!

I run 74 grains of AA2230 with 500 grain Woodleighs, 24 inch barrel and get 2152 fps no probs. Running out of an old FN at just under 8 pounds, great carry rifle with plenty of punch.
Stu

72.5grs of AA2230 with 500gr Woodlieghs gets me 2145fps out of 26" barrles. This is what the rifle shoots best. More would easily be possible.

But I prefer 450gr North Fork flat nose solids, they penetrate far better than the Woodleighs both in ele heads and bodies. The North Forks run a modest 2190fps to shoot best in my rifle.

Now that North Fork is gone, I will use GS Customs when I run out of North Forks.

JPK

I am in the process of working up some 2,400 fps loads with 450 grain NFs and Barnes Banded FN solids in my .458 Lott.

I like these as all purpose loads for all DG and usable for PG as well.

I made a few 450 grain cup points for the 450 Vincent Short the other day, but have not tried then as yet.

Some have a sort of cup pojnt, others have both a cup and a hollow point.

We thought the cup+HP might work well with rifles like the 458 Winchester.

Please show us some photos of your projectiles and a little blurb about the results. Always interested in seeing someone try something new. Rapid expansion for sure!

Staying with the copper you normally use in the .375 for the .458?

What are you using for test medium when not on Safari?

We are using the same copper rod - which is meant for electrical-earthing purposes!

We haven't real;ly found suitable testing media suitable for use inside our indoor shooting range.

In the past we have tried wet phone books, we have tried wet and dry phone books, we have tried 3/4" planks of wood with wet sand in between.

I am in the workshop right now, turning 416 caliber HP Walterhog bullets at 370 grains.

I have been asked to make very light bullets for the 375 to be used on plains game and leoprad.

It seems far too many people are trying to complicate their lives by using several bullet weight for different animals on one safari!

Walter sat down with one of our friends who made this requests, and came up with the following:

400 grains Walterhog HP bullets for buffalo.
400 grains Walterhog flat point for elephant.
350 grains Walterhog HP for lion if not charging!
330 grains Walterhog cup+HP bullets for lion if charging!
370 grains Walterhog HP for zebra, wildebeest and eland.

300 grain Walterhog HP for kudu, walterbuck, warthogs and impala.

Who said Walter was not a genius!

From my 450 No2 Double rifle, 450gr Flat Point Solids have given greater penetration than 480gr Woodleigh Solids.

If I was to hunt with a 458, I would use Swift 450 Softs, and a 450 Flat nosed Solid, IF my rifle would feed it. If not I would use the Barnes 450gr solid, and have NO FEAR.

Do they kill any better if the rod was previously struck by ligthning??

I'm surprised Walter didn't try to sell your client an "Auto-BBQ" Bullet! Cooks on the hoof...

So where are the data or testimonials that 500 gr. FNS's are unstable?

Who said they were unstable?

Barnes has always made a 500 grain RN solid.

I shot the hell out of those old clunkers and they made nice half inch groups at 100 off the bench.

Well then ....

Was the 450 gr. 458 just for the 458 WM crowd?

It seems then that if a double rifle is on the menu, then a 500 gr. 458 bullet makes more sense, just not in 458 WM caliber.

Maybe that explains the 500 gr. 475 bullet, as it is most typically used in a 470 NE double rifle.

Bring on the 500 gr. 458 bullet!

Inasmuch as all the powders listed for the 458 and 2100 FPS plus with a 500 gr. bullet give a Load Density of over 106%,and most more than that, I would say you have a compaction problem and that leads to the age old problems that have haunted the .458 since its inseption..

I would opt for the 450 gr. GS Customs flat nose solid at 2000 to 2100 FPS and that should be an excellent bullet for anything, including elephant.

All the claims of 2100 plus with 500 gr. bullets are factual, but folks just are not allowing for that stuffed case, and the possible results of that stuffing. but that is up to the individual and no skin off my arse and the subject conjurs up emotions beyond belief!

Run for the horses men, the posse is on our tail!

I have been playing with the new Hornady flat nosed , 500 grain, fmj's. Using 74 grains of H 335 powder, Winchester brass, a F 215 cap, and a heavy crimp, I am getting an honest 2100 - 2110 fps out of my 25 inch barreled CZ. I got 2150 out of the older encapsulated numbers. There is 100% loading density with the newer fmj's, but zero compression with this load.

As I have posted before I used the 500 grain GS FN
on my elephant last year and the bullets went where they were supposed to go and did what they were supposed to do.

soory, the caliber was 458wm

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Lefforge:
Gentlemen

Could someone please tell me what GS FN stands for?

I thought it was Grand Slam Flat Nose



Thanks

Steve

Stands for Gerard Schultz
http://gscustom.co.za/

He posts here frequently. He has, I believe retired from the business, but his daughters are still running it. Yukon Delta has his bullets here in the states.

Gerard is not really retired. He is still the tech guy, designs all of the bullets, programs the CNC machines, does all repairs, etc. etc. He's not the owner anymore (his daughter Gina is) but it's still a family run business. I'm pleased to be associated with them as they are great people who are putting out an excellent and innovative product.

For a "hot off the presses" hunt report of the .470 450 grain FN bullet by GS, check out Brett's elephant report in the Hunt Report forum.

Some on here feel that powder compaction is the "Devil Incarnate". In fact a check of any reloading manual that lists compressed loads will show that compressed loads are very common and have been for many years. I have a few 270 Winchester loads left over from a hunt I made in the Yukon Territory in 1969. I used the J.O'Connor load of 62 grains of H-4831 with a 130 gr. Nosler Partition. That load fills the case right to the mouth, in fact you have to tap the case to get it all in. Since this came up I fired 3 of them over the chrono to see what kind of velocity i would get after they had been laying around for 30 years in my gun cabinet. Velocities were 3,095, 3,083, 3,089. I don't know what the velocity was originally since personal chronos were not available 30 years ago. But the velocites were similar to what I get today with modern H-4831.

If you want to get 2,300 fps from the Lott with a 500 grain bullet and use IMR-4320 or H-4895 you will be shooting a compressed load. As long as your crimp is strong enough the hold the bullet in the case you will be okay.

The number of problems associated with powder compaction in the 458 Win. have been blown all out of proportion in my opinion. It has ben reported and probably occurred but the number of instances would have to be quite rare or. I doubt that the big number elephant control personnel of Zim such as Richard Harland, Ron Thompson and Barrie Duckworth would have killed the 10's of thousands of elephant and buffalo that they did and still maintained confidence in the 458 Win that the expressed in writing.
Apparently a few lots of 458 Win got out of the factory with a powder that was subject to compaction. Several powders used in WWII military ammo did should this fault. I suspect the problem was in the coatings applied to those powders. With modern powders, I don't think that powder compaction is a problem.

465H&H

Compression IS the devil that created all these conversations about the .458, it is the inity that gave the .458 its reputation, it cannot be denied, its a proven fact and the 458 has caused many a PH and many a hunter problems over the years, why cannot some of you understand that, it happened, it happens, and 100 % loading density is compaction, like it or not..add a 120 degree heat to that and you CAN have a stuck case, end of story!

My .458 WM nickel case Federal 510 grain SP ammo has MUCH higher pressure than I would ever re-load.

It is only going 2,105 from a 25 inch BRNO 602.

Remington factory SP are going just 2,021 from a 25 inch tube.

I would much rather have a Lott or better yet, an Ackley.

PS, my 450 grain NF FN penetrated 60 inches of elephant skull vs 39 inches or less for the 465 grain RN A-Square.

Andy

I shot my last ele bull with 450 gr Barnes FN banded solid. Very good bullet. 3 meters penetration through the head.

Norbert,

Glad you joined in here!

May I ask why you used the 450gr Barnes? Watching Buzz's vido I believe he mentioned you use a 458 Lott?

Best regards;
Brett

Well, I shot an elephant with a 500 gr. FNS that penetrated 77 yards.

Brett,
Yes, I am using a .458 Lott, but that doesn´t matter in this context.

Will,
you forgot the correct interpunktion. 0.77 yards is not too much.

quote:

Will,
you forgot the correct interpunktion. 0.77 yards is not too much.

Norbert,

Is that the elephant whose photograph is posted on the Charlton/McCallum web page?

Congratulations on your 80th birthday!

Andy

Norbert, please allow me to offer my congratulations as well.

Would you kindly share the load you used in your Lott with the 450 grain Barnes Banded FN Solid?