Get it rimmed and you could have the latest double rifle cart as well!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

That would be wonderful to gain less recoil in the new wildcat, but I do not think it will pan out that way. Why? The 404 case has a larger powder capacity to launch a 400 grainer at the traditional 2,150 fps.

the 458 express is made out off a 375 shell

I like the idea very much just wish it would be easy to get a rifle licensed on this side for less than 2 years.[/QUOTE]

The nice thing is that if you have your competency certificate you wait four months for a license now

quote:

I like the idea very much just wish it would be easy to get a rifle licensed on this side for less than 2 years.

The nice thing is that if you have your competency certificate you wait four months for a license now[/quote]
________________________________________________
How hard would it be for a Client to bring one over for say his PH and keep it all legal?

Hello Gentlemen,

I have been interested in this round for a while now.I noticed some interest in comparison with other rounds of the same class, one in particular is the .400 H&H.

Below is a picture lifted from the Internet of a .400 next to a .300 H&H. If you will notice it is visually obvious that due to the taper and long neck of the .400 that its case capacity is at least similar if not less than the .404-.375.Considering that the .400 is a .411 caliber and is of coarse of smaller diameter than the .423 giving the edge in lower pressure to the larger diameter bullet combined with the larger case capacity of the .404-.375 that the .400 operating at 2375 fps within safe pressure limits this could also be attained with the .404-.375 without concern.

The overriding factor that interests me is that a sound .375 H&H rifle that normally costs less than a dedicated large bore can be converted with a simple rebore/chamber to a larger bore rifle.

As far as ballistics I am looking to try to attain at one end of the spectrum a 450 gr. soft and solid with its high sectional density at adequate velocities to make the 5000 ME.
leaning it in bullet weight and energy more towards the .458 WM class and on the other end propelling 300-350 grain bullets at a high velocity similar to the .416's.



It will be fun trying.Below is a post of the dimensions taken. Oscar.


I was able to take some measurements of a newly formed case.So far using Winchester .375 H&H brass after being sized in a RCBS die I measured at the shoulder .4415 in.,this is a sized case,the books show .4478 in. at the shoulder.

After expanding, the case gave a length of 2.830 in. this was then trimmed to 2.800 in. Neck Dia. showed .4430 in. with a neck length of .4170 in. At the base of the neck the normal taper of the original case proceeds from there.

Cases made from cylindrical brass will most likely show a slightly larger outside neck diameter due to the compression of the brass at sizing.These numbers are just for casual observation in that an expert reamer specialist will know what tolerances are needed to create a functional reamer.

Over all I think this cartridge will work as advertised with little in the way of problems. It looks like it is just one of those things that happen to fall into place just right every once in a while.

Good job MileHighShooter & BoomStick I really think you may have a winner here. Oscar.

quote:

Gosh, you give a lot of presupposed and probably unjustified credit to PH's for caring what they shoot. A lot of them just shoot and hunt with a rifle some client has given to them.

They just shoot it until the rifling is gone or the dust and crap has broken most every part in it. What do they care what cartridge it shoots, much less what do they care about some new fangled super duper African game stomper cartridge?

I doubt that many care one way or another. I could be wrong.

will , i know that was tongue in cheek but you are right ...most of us grew up with .416 or .375 based on what was available at the time , none of us want something different because of ammo availability ...

i may be wrong but if i read this correctly boomstick you are not asking if phs would use it , just if we thought it would be a good idea ..

lots of guns work lots dont ..

if the cartridge meets the minimum physical requirements for what you want to hunt it will work.

quote:

the 458 express is made out off a 375 shell

Hi 375 Fanatic,

It is not ideal to form the longer Express case from a 375 H&H case, being 72.14 mm long.

The cartridge case of the 458 Express (76 mm or 2.99") is also longer than the Lott's (71 mm or 2.80"). The designer of the 458 Express (3-inch case), Prof Koos Badenhorst, thought it well to go see PMP who now manufacture the cases specifically for the Express catering for its longer length, whilst at the same time 458 Lott owners can simply cut or trim the case back (differential of 5 mm).

The real issue for me is to just check out the desired velocity with respect to the 404-375 to keep it below 62,000 psi SAAMI pressure level (P-max), as is the case with the 375 H&H. The other point was that I doubted that the new wildcat (404-375) will pan out with lower recoil than the 404 Jeff, by virtue of a lesser powder charge whilst we seek a higher velocity (such as 2,300 fps) than the traditional 2,150 fps of the 404 Jeff.

Undue high pressure with the 416 Rem was the problem in the past in Africa with its high temperatures, before the factories loaded the ammo down. The problem with the 416 Rem Mag was that its pressure limit of 65,000 Psi was pictched too high for the African sun, and the risk of stuck cases evidenced themselves numerous times. The second follow-up shot could be a life saver if you messed up the first shot. That is why lower pressure gives us that bit of extra insurance for quite a few imponderables that we often tend to overlook.

Warrior

Warrior,

What Boom stick is saying about reduced recoil over the 404 Jeff is based on modern loadings, which are closer to 2400fps with a 400gr bullet. At the traditional 2150, the recoil would still be reduced because it would take even less powder to reach 2150. It would be a bit more powder then a 10.75x68 to hit 2150 with a 400gr, and thus recoil a bit more but I'm willing to trade that for ease of finding cases and the simplicity of a rebore/rechamber and go shooting.

Pressure levels should be very similar to the 375 H&H. If we wanted to really push the limits, pack more powder in and run for max numbers then the 424 OKH is already there with reduced taper and a sharp shoulder. This is what the 416 Rem was in theory, a step between the 375 and 458....but this cart is doing so without shoulders and high pressure and more then necessary velocity.

The 416 Taylor is pushed to 400 @ 2350 so even though I think this could go to 400 @ 2400 I think 400 @ 2150 to 2300 is perfect.
I am not so much thinking this is a back up round as I think it would make a great client rifle.
Lower recoil will be more about lower velocity than powder charge. A portion of the recoil is the gasses escaping the barrel so if there is less powder burned and less gass expelled you get the idea. The lower functional impact velocities of the 404 will allow this to be downloaded without issue in terms of bullet expansion on game.
There is only about 5 more lbs of recoil difference between 300@ 2500 and 400 @ 2150

Focusing on some of what I think are the inherent advantages of this cart

Feeding

Feeding is one of the issues that cannot go wrong in a DG situation and one reason I think this would be a great African DG cart.
A lot of people tout higher velocity as an advantage in a wildcat but that is not the case in this "Case".
I would load 400's @ 2150 to 2300 so there would be no extraction issues in terms of high pressure making the case "stick" but because of the generous taper even at higher velocities I don't think there would be the much repeated issues of sticky extraction of the 416 Rem with its lesser case taper at higher pressures.
The 375 HH has an excellent reputation for feeding. If this cart can borrow that same feeding qualities that is paramount and the old school "Improved"
If the donor rebore gun is designed to feed a 375 HH there should be little in the way of feeding issues with this cart.

Need I remind you that a lot of carts start off as "Wildcats" as the above mentioned 416 Rem that Rem "Borrowed" the idea and legitimized. Furthermore need I remind y'all that the much lauded 458 Lott was a "Wildcat"

Recoil

Lots of determining factors are in the recoil equation. Bullet weight, velocity, charge, pressure, gun design and weight.
You can download a lot of carts but will the bullets function well at lower velocities. This is where the 404 bullets shine. There is almost a 20 LB recoil diff between 400 @ 2150 and 500 @ 2150 and 400 @ 2150 is only 5 lb more recoil than 300 @ 2500

Cost

With the cost of conversion included this would be 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost of a 404
CHEAP BRASS!

There are a few more aspects that make what I think is an advantage but any of these are wildcat worthy and if this were done 100 years ago there would be no discussion not to mention it looks like it should have been done 100 years ago like the 40 BSA

quote:

Originally posted by Karoo:

quote:

quote:
Would it be better to go with a .416 dia bullet rather than a .423? I believe there is a better selection of .416 bullets


Then it would be .416 Rem Mag wouldn't it?

The 416 Rem is based on the 8mm Remington case, not so?

And...as someone already stated...the 8mm Rem Mag was based on the .375 H&H so...

By the way Boom Stick...I think your cartridge has definite merit. 1) Good bullet size...2) should be a great feeder...3) and shootability

Hope you get it out there

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
By the way Boom Stick...I think your cartridge has definite merit. 1) Good bullet size...2) should be a great feeder...3) and shootability

Hope you get it out there

Thank you Sir

Any more PH's ????

Yup. I am a PH in Zambia and own a .404 (not my carry gun) and find the recoil fine. It is a classic calibre and works very well so probably best not to mess with it. My opinion is there are a good number of classic calibres for the sportsman to choose from and whereas finding ammo is no problem in Africa.

If recoil is a consideration then there are many other ways to reduce this.

Price of ammo is not a consideration for us. My .470 costs $20 a round and worth every cent.

Boom-stick,
What I like best about your design is that long, smooth taper. Feed. That's the ticket. Like in combat, a DG hunt requires reliability above all. There was a long time when American gun writers droned on about the alleged inefficiency of the .375's long taper, completely ignoring the fact that no one ever saw a well made .375 fail to feed. That second and third and if necessary fourth round must come up out of the magazine and into the chamber without a hitch. And now to do it with a .423 caliber 400 grain bullet? Sir, you may have just come up with the ideal Class II DG cartridge. Congratulation!