Here is a pic of a 458 Lott, a 404-375 (375HH necked up to .423" bullet) and the 375 HH

Wanted to get some PH opinions on this cart.

The case is the same as the 375 HH in taper but when necked up to .423" it eliminates the shoulder of the 375 HH. Was thinking this could be a great rebore conversion of a 375 rifle to shoot heavier bullets 400 grain bullets from 2,150 to 2400 with minimal modifications and a good step up in bullet weight to fit in between the 300 grain bullet weight of the 375 and the 500 grain bullet weight of the 458 Lott with not too much recoil. If loaded to 404 Jeffery velocities it would have less recoil due to less powder needed.
Conversion would be cheap and a lot less expensive than a 404 Jeffery not to mention one more down in the magazine. Shooting five of these out of a CZ 550 is a boon.

Thanks for your advice and opinions.

Here is the link to the wildcat forum.

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../6521043/m/660101779

Guess all the PH's are out working

I am not a PH, but I think it is a damn neat idea. If you can get something that reliably feeds in a .375 H&H length action, has less recoil than a .404 but gives you a .423 bullet diameter, what is not to like about that.

Thanks!

Yes, borrowed legendary 375 HH feeding qualities due to the same taper and donor gun shooting 400 grainers @ DG velocities with cheap brass and conversion with lower recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am not a PH, but I think it is a damn neat idea. If you can get something that reliably feeds in a .375 H&H length action, has less recoil than a .404 but gives you a .423 bullet diameter, what is not to like about that.

Would it be better to go with a .416 dia bullet rather than a .423? I believe there is a better selection of .416 bullets.

465h&H

Some thoughts...
The 404 cleans up the 375 neck/shoulder junction for ease of forming from 375 brass and adequate neck length.
404 bullets tend to have a lower functional impact velocity envelope to shoot at lower velocities if desired for similar 375 HH recoil.
This is a cheap 404 alternative.
If one wanted a 416 there are already good options including the 416 Rem but I like the no mixing of belts AND shoulders aspect of this idea with the ease of finding 375 brass to form this.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Would it be better to go with a .416 dia bullet rather than a .423? I believe there is a better selection of .416 bullets.

465h&H

465H&H,

There would be no real reason to do a cartridge like this in 416, as there are already several available rifles in 416 rem, Rigby and Ruger.

Now, you can't say that about the 404 Jeffery! Your cheapest starting point right now is a CZ Safari Classic, and thats going to be around the 3000$ mark. Anything else is likely to be custom and very pricey. Even the smoking deal in the classified forums is 2600$

Then, we consider the 404-375 (the poor man's 404). Take the R798's that are going for 499$ right now from CDNN, or a used Whiteworth/Mark X in the 5-700$ range, in 375 H&H. A rebore is 220$, 295$ with a rechamber. Initially, we have come up with some ideas of making the chamber with OUT having a custom reamer made, and using likely available cutters. As well, finished ammo can be made with a mix of readily available dies. Reboring a 375 H&H also lets you keep the factory sights, barrel bands, whatever else is on the rifle. A simple engraved "404-" in front of the 375 and now your barrel is properly stamped. All in all, you're looking at probably 1000-1300$ at a finished product with the same numbers as the 404 Jeff, for about 1/3rd the cost. That other 2k$ can go towards a hunt! We have already contacted a brass maker who said they would add "404-" in front of 375 brass for a slightly higher price then standard 375 ammo.

Voila! You now have a big bore cartridge that should have been created 100 years ago and like Boomy mentioned in the wildcat link...if it had been created 100 years ago would probably be one of the hottest big bores on the market.

I like MHS like the number of intrinsic advantages like cheap conversions.
What a PH might like I think is good feeding and low recoil to smack down ratio for accurate damaging hits on game with more rounds below than larger carts... But I am waiting for the PH's here to take an AR break to give opinions
Are there any places in Africa to rebore a 375?

Isn't there already a .400 H&H, that uses the same bullet as the .450/400 NE?

Jeff

That is a .410" bullet and has a shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by akjeff:
Isn't there already a .400 H&H, that uses the same bullet as the .450/400 NE?

Jeff

Looks good...loaded to 2300fps it would be a perfect all round DG cartridge.

NB..The old .404 load (2150fps) was great for buffalo, but none of the pro's used it on elephant. Penetration with the kynock bullets wasn't great. The current woodleighs are considerably better...but I would still load it up to modern .404 specs.

Thanks Ganyana!

I think 2300 is perfect as well.

Must find a way to get you one over there...

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Looks good...loaded to 2300fps it would be a perfect all round DG cartridge.

NB..The old .404 load (2150fps) was great for buffalo, but none of the pro's used it on elephant. Penetration with the kynock bullets wasn't great. The current woodleighs are considerably better...but I would still load it up to modern .404 specs.

I guess if you're a wildcatter or just a fan of something different then it's an interesting idea and that speed sounds about right.

If you're not interested in those things then you'd ask, why re-invent the wheel?

I guess I fall between the two but yes, It'd be fun to play around with.

One thing I will point out is that I wouldn't even consider recoil as a factor at all. Get the stock design and fit right and recoil won't be a problem. You can always add a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor if you felt the need.

quote:

I am not a PH, but I think it is a damn neat idea. If you can get something that reliably feeds in a .375 H&H length action, has less recoil than a .404 but gives you a .423 bullet diameter, what is not to like about that.

That would be wonderful to gain less recoil in the new wildcat, but I do not think it will pan out that way. Why? The 404 case has a larger powder capacity to launch a 400 grainer at the traditional 2,150 fps.

Sure a 400 gr bullet @ 2,300 fps would be an ideal DG rig, but how would the new .423 - 375 cartridge manage to launch this bullet weight at say 2,300 fps (or anything above 2,150 fps) in a smaller combustion chamber with less recoil? Then we still need to further evaluate if the lower powder charge can actually yield more velocity.

I like the idea though from a design point of view, it looks good, and on top it is a simple and natural convertion to re-engineering the 375 H&H to take a .423 bullet, even if it can just manage the same velocity of 2,150 fps. With today's FN Solids that are better than the old FMJ's of yesteryear, it will even perform better.

The other aspect though is that the chamber pressure should go up, and that need to be tested in a lab to be more comfortable what velocity range falls in an acceptable pressure level.

Warrior

I don't think you need the opinion of any PH. Just build the rifle and pay Craig Boddington to take it to Africa. Voila! Instant success! Hits like the Hammer of Thor etc. etc. FWIW I think it is a neat idea! With the range of powders available I would think you could find a load that gives you the performance you want within the pressure envelope the action is designed for. The traditional African rounds were not high pressure by modern standards.
Peter.

Warrior, I like your input but to have a rifle shooting a 400gr bullet at 2250 fps even it it does produce more recoil than the 375 H&H it will still be better than the 458 Lott. And the .400 or the .416 calibers as showed it's way in penetration.

I like the idea very much just wish it would be easy to get a rifle licensed on this side for less than 2 years.

404-375... isn't this what Saeed had been using for years?

Boomstick, the ballistics will surely work, but as someone said, its re-inventing the wheel. If I was looking at something in that class, with a belt, I would get a .416 rem
My concern with the design is: it looks as if the case is tapering all the way from the mouth to the belt. That surely will lead to some "gripping" problems, and you might need a heavy crimp, which I also do not like.
I like your "tinkering" mind though...!

quote:

it will still be better than the 458 Lott. And the .400 or the .416 calibers as showed it's way in penetration.

Frederik,

1. Some 458 Lott fans may not agree with you, as they are throwing 500 grain stones.

2. The 404 Jeff takes a .423 bullet, which is larger than the .400 and .416 bullets.

3. Penetration is indeed good with with .400 and .416 calibers but that is roughly a function of Mo/Xsa.

The .416 Rem is basically or resembles a .375 H&H case blown out to .416. What is proposed now is that it is blown out to .423. Remington actually used their existing 8 mm Remington Magnum cartridge case and necked it up to .416" while retaining the 25 degree shoulder to form the new .416 Rem cartridge.

The .400 H&H Magnum is a new cartridge designed by Holland & Holland during 2003 in UK and Europe, and in 2008 in USA. It was launched in response to critiques of the .375 H&H Magnum as not being completely reliable on elephant. Factory ammo of 400 grains run at 2,375 fps. Specifications of interest to reloaders include a standard magnum rim diameter of .532". Overall case length is 2.85" (the same as the .375 case), and the cartridge overall length is 3.50". Bullet diameter is .411" and factory loaded bullets are to be supplied by Woodleigh of Australia.

Warrior

MileHighShooter & Others - I use almost exclusively, Remington's line of Ultra Mag cartridges, my favorite is the .375 RUM. I love to hunt, but am not a gun or cartridge expert by any means. I was told the .375 RUM is a .404 Jeffrey necked down to a .375, is that correct?? If not, exactly what is the .375 RUM??

As mentioned, I love the cartridge. I use 270 gr Barnes at 2900 FPS, and it works great for me.

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by Deerdogs:
404-375... isn't this what Saeed had been using for years?

Other way around. Saeed uses a .375 bullet in a .404 case (modified or improved I believe, but better to ask Saeed).

quote:

Would it be better to go with a .416 dia bullet rather than a .423? I believe there is a better selection of .416 bullets

Then it would be .416 Rem Mag wouldn't it?

quote:

Just build the rifle and pay Craig Boddington to take it to Africa. Voila! Instant success!

Isn't that the truth...or was it untruth???

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
I would get a .416 rem
My concern with the design is: it looks as if the case is tapering all the way from the mouth to the belt. That surely will lead to some "gripping" problems, and you might need a heavy crimp, which I also do not like.

Karl, please explain why heavy crimp is bad that is something new to me thank you. Always good to learn something new.

quote:

Karl, please explain why heavy crimp is bad that is something new to me thank you. Always good to learn something new.

I also would like to know?

quote:

quote:
Would it be better to go with a .416 dia bullet rather than a .423? I believe there is a better selection of .416 bullets


Then it would be .416 Rem Mag wouldn't it?

The 416 Rem is based on the 8mm Remington case, not so?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Here is a pic of a 458 Lott, a 404-375 (375HH necked up to .423" bullet) and the 375 HH

Wanted to get some PH opinions on this cart.

The case is the same as the 375 HH in taper but when necked up to .423" it eliminates the shoulder of the 375 HH. Was thinking this could be a great rebore conversion of a 375 rifle to shoot heavier bullets 400 grain bullets from 2,150 to 2400 with minimal modifications and a good step up in bullet weight to fit in between the 300 grain bullet weight of the 375 and the 500 grain bullet weight of the 458 Lott with not too much recoil. If loaded to 404 Jeffery velocities it would have less recoil due to less powder needed.
Conversion would be cheap and a lot less expensive than a 404 Jeffery not to mention one more down in the magazine. Shooting five of these out of a CZ 550 is a boon.

Thanks for your advice and opinions.

Here is the link to the wildcat forum.

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../6521043/m/660101779

I am not very familar with it, but isn't this the same as the .425 Express or does the Express have a shoulder?

Anyway, it would be a good cartridge and easier to make feed than a .404 or .425 WR(bigger bullet here)

8mm rem, is 375H&H necked down

I believe the 425 express was based on a 300 Win Mag case or a bit shorter than the 375 case and it did have a shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Here is a pic of a 458 Lott, a 404-375 (375HH necked up to .423" bullet) and the 375 HH

Wanted to get some PH opinions on this cart.

The case is the same as the 375 HH in taper but when necked up to .423" it eliminates the shoulder of the 375 HH. Was thinking this could be a great rebore conversion of a 375 rifle to shoot heavier bullets 400 grain bullets from 2,150 to 2400 with minimal modifications and a good step up in bullet weight to fit in between the 300 grain bullet weight of the 375 and the 500 grain bullet weight of the 458 Lott with not too much recoil. If loaded to 404 Jeffery velocities it would have less recoil due to less powder needed.
Conversion would be cheap and a lot less expensive than a 404 Jeffery not to mention one more down in the magazine. Shooting five of these out of a CZ 550 is a boon.

Thanks for your advice and opinions.

Here is the link to the wildcat forum.

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../6521043/m/660101779

I am not very familar with it, but isn't this the same as the .425 Express or does the Express have a shoulder?

Anyway, it would be a good cartridge and easier to make feed than a .404 or .425 WR(bigger bullet here)

The reason I mention recoil is the reason many use the 375 HH is to shoot DG without the punishing recoil. A 400 grain bullet in this case could be loaded down to 400 @ 2.150 without issue. If you were ok with the recoil of the 375 and already had a donor gun the switch would be hopefully easy without any loss in 100 yard accuracy due to recoil flinch.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I guess if you're a wildcatter or just a fan of something different then it's an interesting idea and that speed sounds about right.

If you're not interested in those things then you'd ask, why re-invent the wheel?

I guess I fall between the two but yes, It'd be fun to play around with.

One thing I will point out is that I wouldn't even consider recoil as a factor at all. Get the stock design and fit right and recoil won't be a problem. You can always add a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor if you felt the need.

Lower powder charge in a smaller case is more efficient and should bring less recoil.

When calculating recoil you have to factor in the weight of the charge necessary to get that velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

I am not a PH, but I think it is a damn neat idea. If you can get something that reliably feeds in a .375 H&H length action, has less recoil than a .404 but gives you a .423 bullet diameter, what is not to like about that.

That would be wonderful to gain less recoil in the new wildcat, but I do not think it will pan out that way. Why? The 404 case has a larger powder capacity to launch a 400 grainer at the traditional 2,150 fps.

Sure a 400 gr bullet @ 2,300 fps would be an ideal DG rig, but how would the new .423 - 375 cartridge manage to launch this bullet weight at say 2,300 fps (or anything above 2,150 fps) in a smaller combustion chamber with less recoil? Then we still need to further evaluate if the lower powder charge can actually yield more velocity.

I like the idea though from a design point of view, it looks good, and on top it is a simple and natural convertion to re-engineering the 375 H&H to take a .423 bullet, even if it can just manage the same velocity of 2,150 fps. With today's FN Solids that are better than the old FMJ's of yesteryear, it will even perform better.

The other aspect though is that the chamber pressure should go up, and that need to be tested in a lab to be more comfortable what velocity range falls in an acceptable pressure level.

Warrior

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think you need the opinion of any PH. Just build the rifle and pay Craig Boddington to take it to Africa. Voila! Instant success! Hits like the Hammer of Thor etc. etc. FWIW I think it is a neat idea! With the range of powders available I would think you could find a load that gives you the performance you want within the pressure envelope the action is designed for. The traditional African rounds were not high pressure by modern standards.
Peter.

Sorry to hear about licensing issues. Part of the design is to just stamp 404- in front of the 375 on the barrel and brass for legit travel purposes.

Some will like the Lott. This is just the 400 grain version with more taper.

Glad you like it.

If you could rebore a 375 over there and open up 375 dies you could be in business.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Warrior, I like your input but to have a rifle shooting a 400gr bullet at 2250 fps even it it does produce more recoil than the 375 H&H it will still be better than the 458 Lott. And the .400 or the .416 calibers as showed it's way in penetration.

I like the idea very much just wish it would be easy to get a rifle licensed on this side for less than 2 years.

Karl.
Thanks for the compliment.
Formed cases have been measured. The neck would be almost a full caliber in length even with trimming back to 2.80" like the Lott and if you leave it full length you will have more than a full caliber neck length.
There should be zero grip issues.
It might be easier in Africa to get 375 brass or just expand or fireform loaded ammo to get cases than to get 416 Rem ammo or cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Boomstick, the ballistics will surely work, but as someone said, its re-inventing the wheel. If I was looking at something in that class, with a belt, I would get a .416 rem
My concern with the design is: it looks as if the case is tapering all the way from the mouth to the belt. That surely will lead to some "gripping" problems, and you might need a heavy crimp, which I also do not like.
I like your "tinkering" mind though...!

The 425 express is a shorter round with a shoulder
the 425 OKH is a full length case with a shoulder
The 404-375 would be easy to get to feed and form.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Here is a pic of a 458 Lott, a 404-375 (375HH necked up to .423" bullet) and the 375 HH

Wanted to get some PH opinions on this cart.

The case is the same as the 375 HH in taper but when necked up to .423" it eliminates the shoulder of the 375 HH. Was thinking this could be a great rebore conversion of a 375 rifle to shoot heavier bullets 400 grain bullets from 2,150 to 2400 with minimal modifications and a good step up in bullet weight to fit in between the 300 grain bullet weight of the 375 and the 500 grain bullet weight of the 458 Lott with not too much recoil. If loaded to 404 Jeffery velocities it would have less recoil due to less powder needed.
Conversion would be cheap and a lot less expensive than a 404 Jeffery not to mention one more down in the magazine. Shooting five of these out of a CZ 550 is a boon.

Thanks for your advice and opinions.

Here is the link to the wildcat forum.

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../6521043/m/660101779

I am not very familar with it, but isn't this the same as the .425 Express or does the Express have a shoulder?

Anyway, it would be a good cartridge and easier to make feed than a .404 or .425 WR(bigger bullet here)

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
MileHighShooter & Others - I use almost exclusively, Remington's line of Ultra Mag cartridges, my favorite is the .375 RUM. I love to hunt, but am not a gun or cartridge expert by any means. I was told the .375 RUM is a .404 Jeffrey necked down to a .375, is that correct?? If not, exactly what is the .375 RUM??

As mentioned, I love the cartridge. I use 270 gr Barnes at 2900 FPS, and it works great for me.

Thanks,

I believe the answer is yes Aaron. Sorry I missed you at Reno. I THINK there were only 3 boothes I missed at Reno that were on my list. One was yours, one was Wendell's, and one was Heyms. It was just too much for 2 days!

Brett

Aaron,

When mine gets built you're more then welcome to give em a shot! Pun intended lol

Yes the RUM series is based on modified 404 Jeff brass.

Like mentioned above its a 423" bullet in a 375 H&H case. Saeed's and the RUM are the other way around


Boomy,

Looks like the crowd approves.

quote:

re-inventing the wheel

That could be said for 75% of the carts that came after 1915

A wildcat must serve a purpose or have an advantage

This has been called the poor mans 404 and it does fit but it is more than that I think.
If you wanted to save money this could save you a bunch compared to the 404 that will cost you twice or three times as much.
Cheaper brass
One more round down than a 404
Lower recoil
Bullets that will function well down to 2150
Brass availability
Any of these is worthy of a wildcat. this has multiple.

If all you have to do is to rebore an existing 375 and order dies and reamer for this that is damn good.

Gosh, you give a lot of presupposed and probably unjustified credit to PH's for caring what they shoot. A lot of them just shoot and hunt with a rifle some client has given to them.

They just shoot it until the rifling is gone or the dust and crap has broken most every part in it. What do they care what cartridge it shoots, much less what do they care about some new fangled super duper African game stomper cartridge?

I doubt that many care one way or another. I could be wrong.

Well I care what African PH's would think because I think the cart is an ideal DG round that seems to fit what a lot of PH's want. A rifle that should fees slick and does not recoil too much that clients can shoot well.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Gosh, you give a lot of presupposed and probably unjustified credit to PH's for caring what they shoot. A lot of them just shoot and hunt with a rifle some client has given to them.

They just shoot it until the rifling is gone or the dust and crap has broken most every part in it. What do they care what cartridge it shoots, much less what do they care about some new fangled super duper African game stomper cartridge?

I doubt that many care one way or another. I could be wrong.