quote:

Originally posted by drj:
Larry, please continue to keep us informed. I am sure there are many (like myself) that have(had?) Sango on our list of "possibles" but want to avoid a nightmare like you have (almost) had at all costs. I, for one, are grateful that you brought this to all of our attention on AR and also admire the class act way you are handling everything.

+1

...Zim isn't high on my list of countries to go on safari in..but if I do, Sango was on the top of my list.

Once when I got a little gruff with the cook after a less than stellar breakfast, my PH Peter Chipman asked me how I would like my hyena served for dinner.

Larry may I humbly suggest you work this out amicably, or settle for the second or third or whatever best lodge in Zimbabwe. Given what this vacation is going to cost, and the opportunity it presents, everything about it should be fantastic including the planning, anticipation and overall vibe.

I did not know Sango was so high-end. I did see some of what I thought were high-end camps in the BVC. Whatever you do, I hope it works out and you guys make the most of the time together. I finally got my girls to Africa this year, and it was great.

The client is only as good as the next wire to come. The last 5 wires have no value.

The more of Africa hunting I see the more I am inclined to spend my vacation/discretionary dollars elsewhere:

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The client is only as good as the next wire to come. The last 5 wires have no value.

The more of Africa hunting I see the more I am inclined to spend my vacation/discretionary dollars elsewhere:

Mike

Boy, aint that the truth. All the last 5 were good for was for stories to tell about the next 5

BTW, very much enjoyed your company.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The client is only as good as the next wire to come. The last 5 wires have no value.

The more of Africa hunting I see the more I am inclined to spend my vacation/discretionary dollars elsewhere:

Mike

Boy, aint that the truth. All the last 5 were good for was for stories to tell about the next 5

BTW, very much enjoyed your company.

Steve

Me too Steve - rarely do you meet a person as focused on helping his fellow outdoorsmen/fisherman as you were to everyone in camp helping newbies like myself and others with tackle tips and excellent rigs.

Look forward to more trips and I was just pulling your chain on trump

Mike

I am giving them a few more days. If not resolved by Monday, I see it as highly likely that we are going to the BVC or Australia.

If not resolved, I have a post prepared complete with e mails. The post drafted may find its way here.

Come on down Larry and say G'Day

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The client is only as good as the next wire to come. The last 5 wires have no value.

The more of Africa hunting I see the more I am inclined to spend my vacation/discretionary dollars elsewhere:

Mike

Boy, aint that the truth. All the last 5 were good for was for stories to tell about the next 5

BTW, very much enjoyed your company.

Steve

Me too Steve - rarely do you meet a person as focused on helping his fellow outdoorsmen/fisherman as you were to everyone in camp helping newbies like myself and others with tackle tips and excellent rigs.

Look forward to more trips and I was just pulling your chain on trump

Mike

For a "newbie" you put it on your very experienced boat partner pretty good on a couple iconic Amazon species.

This makes me worried

I have accepted the fact that we are not going to Sango this year. The major problem for me is that I have heavily promoted the Sango lodge to my wife for her first trip to Africa. To say that she is disappointed would a major understatement.

I have had communications with the owner of Sango via calls,e mails and texts. These were all polite (on both sides) and professional. He has given me an answer as to why this happened and an apology.

In the final analysis, the situation is being blamed on the following:

I wanted to take my wife but did not wish to book through Zambezi Hunters. I have my own reasons for this which are not relevant to this discussion. The calendar of ZH and Sango were not updated to make sure they were in agreement. The GM thought the days were open. Obviously, they were not. Thus, the conflict arose.

I am told by Theirry Labat (who is a friend, a good guy and an even better PH) that he knew about the large group for a year or more. I have no reason to not believe him.

While this may be true, this still does not answer why it took the GM until November 4 ( I have previously indicated 11/6 incorrectly) to send wiring instructions when he had been told several times that I wanted to make a deposit. I do not know the answer to that.

Communications for this trip were via e mail, phone, text and in person. I have the e mails that were sent to me.

I have summarized the e mails below:

While I have have some that can be easily be copied, there are others that have some sort of format issue and have a single word on a line on anything other than a MAC. Should anyone want to see the originals, I will provide them provided this does not become a full time job.

Rather than repeat names over and over, the following are the parties:


DG- Dave Goosen , the general manager of Sango

PB- Peter Barnard, PH with Bvkenya

JB- John Barth , booking agent with Adventure Unlimited

LS- Larry Shores

The summary is as follows:


>3/31/16

FROM -PB

TO- LS

PB assured LS he has spoken with DG. DG assured PB that I can book direct and the start date will be 7/6-7/7.


>5/21/16

FROM- PB

TO- DG

Difficult making contact with DG. LS wants to send deposit ASAP. Requests prices and conditions.

>5/24

FROM-DG

TO: PB

Apologizes for difficulty in communications. Puts LS down for buff. Summarized term and conditions but NO wire transfer instructions.



>5/24

TO/FROM- DG

TO/FROM PB

This is is to and from both parties. PB sent the original e mail. DG put his answers in a different color in the original e mail.

PB advises DG that LS is getting nervous. PB wants verification of start dates of 7/6 or 7/7. DG confirms.

Miscellaneous other technical details (fees splits, etc)

>5/30

FROM- PB

TO- DG

PB advises DG that I would like an elephant if they have one on quota.


>6/3

FROM- DG

TO- PB

Advises that all elephant quota for the next 2 years has been sold.


>DATE- After 6/3. I cannot tell from what was sent to me.

PB confirmed dates with DG. PB once again states that LS wants to make a deposit.


>8/29

FROM- JB

TO- DG

Advises that due to LS schedule, the dates are the only time I can go. Advises that LS is aware owner will be there and wants to know if LS can come anyway.

>9/21

FROM- JB

TO- DG

Asks DG to please respond to prior e mail.

>9/21

FROM- DG

TO- JB

DG has spoken to owner and is agreeable to LS using the lodge.


>9/21

FROM- PB

TO- DG

Thanks for responding.

>11/1

FROM- DG

TO- PB


Inquires if anymore is developing on this. Inquires who is going to handle the deposit.

>11/1

FROM- PB

TO- DG

Advises that JB will handle the deposit. Also request bank details.

>11/4

FROM- DG

TO- PB

Advises of wiring instructions.

Advises that LS needs to changes dates due to large group.

Advises that DG hates changing dates.

>11/15

FROM- PB

TO- DG

Advises that he has been trying to phone DG for “ages”

>11/15

FROM- DG

TO- PB

DG advises that communications are bad. Set up a time and he will go to where there is a signal.

>11/15

FROM-DG

TO- PB

Cannot lose large group. No additional DG quota for a friend of LS who also wants to come.

Apologizes for “messing us around”


This is all that I have been sent of e mails that were sent BEFORE I was told that hunt was cancelled. I had no direct communications with Sango until AFTER I was told the safari was cancelled. There are some that were sent subsequent including some between myself and Dave Goosen.

I leave it up to you to draw your own conclusions on this. Sango clearly did NOT have my deposit money in hand. Was that my fault ? Was that Peter Barnard’s fault? Was that John Barth’s fault? I say no. Should something different have been done?

As I said before, I have some e mails between myself and Sango AFTER this incident. Copies are posted below:

>December 11 - to me from Dave Goosen

"Hi Larry,

I see that you are complaining about Sango on Accurate Reloading. You say you have paid a deposit to Sango for a hunt booking.

Sango has not received any deposit, you may have paid Pete or John but the money had not been paid to Sango.

We have many enquiry’s and a hunt booking is only confirmed when a deposit is paid.

I am sorry about your hunt not happening as you planed, but Sango has to deal with the realities of business and if I kept all the dates for clients that did not pay deposits, we would have folded.

I am writing to Pete and John to sort this out with you, I don’t want to do this on a forum, but would appreciate that when you have the facts you clear Sango’s name on Accurate Reloading.

Regards
David Goosen"

>My response the same day:

"Dave:

I am on a plane flying home from Spain. I was shocked to hear this safari has been cancelled especially considering that I had been there twice before and had ALWAYS paid my bills promptly. I always treated the staff respectfully and was always safe. It isn't like I was a problem client. I guess it meant nothing that I spent a lot of my time talking people into not canceling in some of the problem years . I guess it means nothing the hours of my time I have spent talking to people who wanted to go to Sango and sending them my DVDs from there. I guess it meant nothing the legal battle I got into with one of the biggest problems for Sango. By the way, is Mr. XXXX bothering you any more? Let's see, that only cost me $285,000.

John has had the money for around 6 months . I am told they never got wiring instructions until just a couple of days before cancellation in spite of multiple attempts to obtain the wiring information. Is that true? Pete says he has all of the e mails. I am also told that you were trying to move dates to accommodate Willi.

You obviously know how to reach me. It is not like I am a total stranger to you .One simple e mail and I could have got the entire thing resolved.

It is very disappointing especially knowing that ZH has not been able to sell the entire quota in the last couple of years.

I have a strong suspicion that there is more to this than meets the eye and this deposit issue is a convenient excuse."

>From Dave to me same date:

"Hi Larry,

Please find below the string of emails regarding your hunt.

I was dealing with Pete and John on this and only obtained you email address tonight when I was informed about the Accurate Reloading forum writeup.

Regards
David"

>My response on December 12:

"I have seen these Dave. I also note the date is November 4th. Barnard told you I wanted to make a deposit as early as May. I have seen the e mails. Why does it take this many months to get wiring instructions? Surely that is not my fault, nor is it Peter’s fault, nor is it John’s fault.

As to those dates, I cannot do those dates in ANY year. I would have to be out of my office on the biggest deadline of the year which simply isn’t happening.

After being at Sango twice in the past, you should know that I paid the trophy fees very very quickly. It is not like payment was ever an issue. It has not been a problem to Sango or any other operator anywhere in the world, not once EVER!

The e mails also make it pretty clear that you are bumping me for the large group.

Dave, I am a pretty reasonable guy. Had you come to me and told me you had this group of 17 and asked if I could work with you, I would have. I have to tell you that I resent being treated like I am some person you don’t even know who is a deadbeat. All it would take is one simple e mail and the entire matter could have been resolved. Yet for some reason, you were incredibly difficult to get in contact with. Why is that Dave?

After reading the e mail chain, I think the entire matter was handled poorly and that is being nice about it.

I have spent a lot of time talking to anyone who was potentially interested in going to Sango. The following is an excerpt from a message I got just this morning:

“They should have been considerate knowing the fact that you and Will both have done so much for Sango's advertisement. At least I book my Safari there due to your video and hunt reports.”

There are so many people like this you can’t imagine it. I guess the old saying that no good deed goes unpunished is about right.

Once again, very very disappointed. I would have never expected this out of Sango. Obviously, I was wrong."



Again, draw your own conclusions. The Sango lodge is indeed a magnificent place. In 24 trips to Africa, I have seen nothing like it. When I was last there in 2012, the quantity of wildlife was simply astounding. Something went wrong on this proposed trip.

What should I have done differently if anything to avoid this? What should Barnard and Barth have done differently to avoid this?

If my conduct has in any way contributed to this, then I will man up and apologize.

I would feel exactly as you do Larry. Sorry you had a bad experience.

Thanks for laying it out Larry.

Just shows how different real businesses - ones with franchise value and long term customer retention/investing/operating outlook (Amazon, Costco,most small business in us)are from short sighted business like African hunting.

The more I see how the hunting business in Africa is run the less I want to hunt Africa.

Mike

Larry,

Thanks for showing the forum what took place..I'm sure most here can see what happened and make up their mind about Sango and it's management for themselves.

What a shame...let us know if you find a suitable replacement to take you wife to.

I guess I do believe the calendar issue. I struggle with the failure to provide bank details for months.

Larry, I see no reason for this fiasco other than that you got bumped because Sango didn't want to lose out on a large group...the puzzling aspect of it is why they didn't just call you ASAP and tell you the truth...that they didn't want to lose out on the revenue of a large group...and try to work something out with you.

I know you, Peter, and John Barth personally so I know what kind of guys you are.

John Barth conducts his business with the up-most integrity and he is a total stand-up guy as well, so there is no doubt in my mind that Sango is totally full of shit and tried to play you as a fool with a lame excuse instead of being a man about it and trying to work out an alternative with you.

Glad that you made this public for everyone to see.

I can understand your disappointment. Maybe they did not want to say a clear and professionally quick no to your deposit because they wanted a contingency plan with your booking in case the 17 would drop out. Indeed you did a lot of marketing for Sango, even shipping your DVDs to Germnay, thank you again. BTW I would be very alerted if I would hunt a place after such a big party has been there.

Would the GM's first e mail to me piss you all off if you were on the receiving end of it?

It is fair to say that I was more than a little annoyed.

Again, I do believe the calendar issue. It is the failure to provide wiring instructions that bothers me.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Would the GM's first e mail to me piss you all off if you were on the receiving end of it?

It is fair to say that I was more than a little annoyed.

Again, I do believe the calendar issue. It is the failure to provide wiring instructions that bothers me.

Larry, you are 100% in the right on this...don't second guess yourself for even one second

In answer to your original question, no client deserves to be treated this way.

I would refuse to have any dealings with these guys.

Pretty low class way to run a business.

quote:

Larry, I see no reason for this fiasco other than that you got bumped because Sango didn't want to lose out on a large group...the puzzling aspect of it is why they didn't just call you ASAP and tell you the truth...that they didn't want to lose out on the revenue of a large group...and try to work something out with you.

Totally agree with Leapordtrack.

This was so simple to fix. Perhaps a phone call or straightforward email should have gone something like this?

"Larry, this is David Goosen, I need to speak to you regarding your desired hunt dates this year. First, I want you to know how much we appreciate your prior business and all the help you have given us over the years. Customers like yourself become friends, and we are thankful to call you that.
We are both businessmen and I need to discuss an issue with you. We have a group of 17 people that would like to book at Sango at the exact same time as you do. Larry, you know what we charge. Missing out on a group of this size would be felt at year end. Is there anyway we could get you to come a few weeks earlier? Or, now knowing all the details, do you have any ideas how we could make a plan that is beneficial to both of us? I would love to meet your new bride and be a part of introducing her to Africa and hopefully, be part of your future hunting plans."

Or not.

Larry,

Sorry this hasn't worked out for you and ML. I'm sure wherever you go you will have a great time together.

Thanks for alerting the AR community of your issue.

Sango certainly would be off my list of potential bookings in the future were I to return to Africa.

Joyce and I always try and use mileage tickets and changing dates once confirmed is IMPOSSIBLE. I could not deal with an outfit that treated you this way.

Cheers
J&J

Sorry for the problems you've had.

This thread is instructional and eye opening for all of us. Regardless of how experienced we are or how well we know people, human nature and greed can rear its ugly head.

Hope you book a great trip with your wife and that she has an exceptional experience.

All the best.

Again, i do believe the calendar issue. It is the delay is providing wiring instructions that I do not get.

By the way, we are now booked for 10 days in the Bubye.

The old saying " got too big for their britches " might be right word for Sango?
It can happen to the best and if that happens, they need to be put back in line
No excuses...

quote:

Again, i do believe the calendar issue. It is the delay is providing wiring instructions that I do not get.

It seems fairly obvious to me that you were always the "fall back" booking should the large group not be able to come. Which is why he wouldn't accept a deposit. He figured without a deposit he could tell you to piss off when he confirmed the big group was a go. Unless I'm missing something thats how I see it....if the large group cancelled or shifted their dates a wire transfer would have been a sudden priority.

Sango WAS on my short list for my next trip, as I intend to bring my wife along to introduce her to Africa as well. Larry, have a great time in the Bubye and please give us one of your fantastic reports upon your return. May I inquire who your PH will be?

Peter Barnard.

I have known him for many years but have never hunted with him. We always manage to have a good time at the shows.

My wife and I have only been on 7 safaris, and we plan on many more, God willing.

We can now cross Sango off any future plans we make. Don't know if we ever would have, but certain that we won't now.

Something tells me the decision to take 17 hunters NOW, instead of Larry, will prove a huge financial mistake over a short period of time. I can't imagine a more influential client to disrespect than Larry. Not only is he a return customer who books multiple DG species on each trip, but he has a very large sphere of influence amongst fellow hunters.

I believe them about the calendar. 100%.

It was handled poorly.

I do not know what to think about the delay in providing wiring information.

Maybe this is innocent. Maybe it isn't. All I know is that I am not going where a week ago I had no doubt I was going.

BVC here we come.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
My wife and I have only been on 7 safaris, and we plan on many more, God willing.

We can now cross Sango off any future plans we make. Don't know if we ever would have, but certain that we won't now.

Besides Sitatunga do not occur in Zimbabwe.

Pete Barnard was my PH on my first trip to Dande in 2011. Larry, prepare to smile a lot and laugh a lot. He is a great PH and a hoot to hunt/share camp with. His team is also great, IMHO.

I have known Peter a very long time. This will be the first hunt with him.

I hunted Chewore South in 2006 when it was still under Rosenfels, Whittal, & Duckworth. Nigel Theisen was my PH but Pete was in camp for 7 days of the 2 weeks. He was a little suspect of us Texas cowboys (my Dad and another cowboy Texan were with me) but a great guy!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

By the way, we are now booked for 10 days in the Bubye.

Great, it should be equally good experience for your wife, try getting Lamulas or Samanyanga camp, they are great too.

All I need to know to never do business with them.

Jeff

Larry is unhappy. Let me make another prediction: the 17 hunters will be unhappy. This is hunting not an SCI convention.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I believe them about the calendar. 100%.

It was handled poorly.

I do not know what to think about the delay in providing wiring information.

Maybe this is innocent. Maybe it isn't. All I know is that I am not going where a week ago I had no doubt I was going.

BVC here we come.

Larry,
Thanks for sharing. A couple of comments learned via my gray hair.

1. It is ALWAYS about money! Whenever anyone does something that makes you say, "Now why would they do that?" It is the MONEY!

2. I would strongly suspect they weighted the cost benefit of 17 vs 2. Deposits for 17 go a lot farther than for 2.

3. You will like BVC. I hunted there when it was Lemco in 2005. It was great then and I suspect a lot better now.

Go, never look back....write a good report as we will all want to live it with you!

I think the group of 17 is the total size. I am not sure all 17 are hunters . I am not sure they aren't. I sure as hell don't want to go after that group. I am going to Alaska in August anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think the group of 17 is the total size. I am not sure all 17 are hunters . I am not sure they aren't. I sure as hell don't want to go after that group. I am going to Alaska in August anyway.

Regardless of the size of the group.

Their behavior leaves a lot to be desired.

I sure am for one will not have them on my list someone to visits.