The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Saeed I'd like to sweeten the potGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Somehow I think this might be just be a little more money ($$$) than the 1000 x $25 than "Roger" and "cats" think it is.  | |||
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So now i'm confused if cats(wynwood) is able to pay his own way why is he  ing for a free trip. LostHorizonsOutfitters.com ---------------------------- "You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas" Davy Crockett 1835 ---------------------------- | |||
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Cats, That is truely amazing!! I'm sure then, that a big money Ak BC hunter like you would have all kinds of really neat pictures to share..  We'd all love to see them.. Oh and also could you please tell us how and what you manage to hunt on 3 different AK hunts in just one short little ole season. Also please tell us about your African hunting experience. It seems that you've never been there yet you've hunted there in the past. I for one am really excited about this one.. Keep up the good work and tell all of your PETA buddies hi at your next meeting.  | |||
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| <mikeh416Rigby> |
I can't believe I'm still reading this thread. I feel like Charley Brown just after Lucy pulls the football away for the umpteenth time.  | ||
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I'm new here, so let me get this right. People say the 458 win mag sucks, since with old powder, and bullets, it can't get to 1900 fps, or penetrate, due to bad bullets. Genius decides the 45-70 can be used as a DG rifle by lowering the velocity to 1600 fps, with a 500 grain bullet, Garrett, right?, and, if placed properly it will kill, due to penetration. Also we have the old Nitro black powder rounds, that had a bad habit of having the hunter charged, since velocity was insufficient to annoy the animal enough, or hurt them enough, to keep from charging. This guy Vince Lupo, goes to Africa, gets charged by 4 out of 6 animals, since he's using a rifle with the bite of a bee sting, yet good penetration. Sure he kills the animals, but, as the original 500grains argues, the rifle has no stopping power, so the animals charge. Also, for a 45-70 to work, don't you have to be REALLY close? So the animals knows it's you, and you are within easy distance? Many dangerous game animals have been taken with light caliber, penetrating rounds, and not charged, since the animals don't know where the hell you are(snipping, not really hunting?). See Karamojo Bell's book on hunting elephants. Then, 500grains says the guy is a liar, when he reports exactly what is to be expected of hunting dangerous game with an inadequate round? I could be wrong, but, other then brain shots, if you piss off a dangerous game animal, with a light rifle hit, and no CNS, isn't that what invites charges, and why you use 375 H&H and up, at decent range, with a guy behind you with a 458 Lott? Why is 500grains calling Lupo a liar? Idiot maybe, but liar? G | |||
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It would appear that he is a fiction writer, because even poorly shot DG do not charge 4 out of 6 times as alleged by the writer in question. Possible? Sure. But extremely unlikely. Even if he had shot the game with a 22 LR. So either he is EXTREMELY unluckly, or __________. Odd that a new guy would show up just for this thread.... | |||
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I might as well mention it now, so there is no miunderstandings later on. We have always gone on first class hunts. We travell first class, we hunt with first class outfits and professional hunters. And so is the final bill. Which generally comes up to around $200K all told. Remember, we are doing this hunt to stop all the arguments. But, we are not going to lower our own standards on the hunt. So as soon as you collect $200,000, let me know, and I will tell you in whose name you should write the checque.  | |||
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Why? The one constant to DG game hunting is no two animals react to even the same type shot the same way, twice, nor do even domestic animals die consistently, even when shot with the same caliber, same angle etc. (Fackler's research, IIRC). The guy, Lupo, must have brought a posse with him to take movies, etc. and, made himself a sitting duck, inviting a charge. He might also have done this intentionally, hoping to captialize on the film, and publicity. Who was that idiot that prevoked charges, then hit the animals with a 600 Nitro express, and called it hunting, filming the entire thing? Maybe Lupo was taking a page from that guys book...or VCR film... As for prevoking a charge, I was under the impression that was the animals decision, and often not the person's. If I walk up and try and pet the lion, buffalo, elephant, etc. in their home, on their territory, even without a gun, what are the chances of them charging, and attacking? Or, if I tried to get within good picture distance, same result? I know enough about elephants to know their reactions can be really unpredictible. One day the elephant is having a bad day, and you are stomped. Next day, they disappear, and you are all alone. If I was an over confident hunter, with a short range cartridge, and a bunch of guys taking pictures to publicize my hunting, couldn't my very presence, and my entourage, insure the game charges, much less shooting the animal...? Lest one forgets: hunter W/O firearm=dinner, food, snack, or something to be stomped out, much like an ant, invading someone else's house. With all the idiocy, and intentional prevocation of game animals, I see no reason to not believe Lupo could manage to prevoke that number of charges. Maybe he wears a REALLY annoying cologne? DG animals are notoriously poor at reading statistical surveys, and really are very bad at cooperating with statistical analyisis. Frankly, I could careless, but, horrible hunting leads to charges, and dead hunters. That's what you accuse this guy Lupo of: doing a circus stunt. If that's the case, the charge ratio is possible. Maybe he wounded the animals first, intentionally... s | |||
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It is not odd at all, just a communist plot to take over the world  Another case of mistaken identity I believe, and we all need to be very careful as we know very well what can occur with mistaken identity when confronted by the wrong people, oh well the AR police will be on this case pronto after all the laughter has died down Peter | |||
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Peter, it is good to see that you are following my posts carefully.  It makes a writer feel good to know that he has readers. 
It would be much easier for him to just write an article that says he got a lot of charges than actually arranging for the charges to occur. And I was unaware that he filmed the endeavor. Do you know where the film is available from? Also, isn't it possible that his PH "helped" but that such a detail was omitted from the write-up? Just exploring possibilities... | |||
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Hi 500grains Hope you are keeping very well Nothing like a bit of fun and frivolity intertwined with hunting and politics is my motto /// Some might say it is all due to my mis=spent youth OR tooooooo much sun and refreshments during my many years spent under the hot blistering Africa Sun  Take care and have a nice day in the USA Peter | |||
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Of course you're right  But, you have to see the irony??? You call him a liar because he prevokes charges, using an underpowered gun, against dangerous game, and yet, all the reasons to use enough gun are because exactly what you claim might happen, happens?  The really funny twist is if the guy is trying to promote the 45-70 on dangerous game, he provides a resounding proof for why NOT to use the 45-70 on dangerous game. I ASSUME he was filming this, because that's what people do with circus stunts, isn't it? As for omitting the pro hunter "helping", the pro hunter should have been helping on 4 of 6 of the dangerous game animals, because they charge, ne'cest pas? | |||
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so lets have a raffle, $100 a ticket. sounds good dont it? i'm in! where do we send checks? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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GS, Actually I do not accuse him of provoking charges at all. I theorize that he is a fiction writer, presenting an account to us that differs from what actually occurred in the field. If the hunt went down as he wrote, then indeed it is a sound indictment against the 45-70 (as is the Brian Pearce hunt). However, something smells fishy about the Lupo story. It reads like an exaggerated Peter Capstick tale. Therefore I speculate that nothing has been written which accurately describes how the Garrett ammo worked for Lupo on the Big 6. __________ Peter, thank you for inquiring but I am not keeping too well in our 100 degree F. plus summer heat. It makes me go rancid like a stick of butter left sitting on the kitchen counter. ____________
As Saeed indicated, write out a check for $200,000 to his accountant and he will arrange for and carry out the hunt. If you wish to collect donations from other forum participants to recoup some of your investment, feel free. where do we send checks? | |||
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500grains: As I posted in another thread: The problem with the 45-70 reminds me of the same argument people have about snub nosed, lightweight, 38/357 revolvers(thinking S&W scandium 642's, IIC). While I feel the same about 38's on people, except I don't think they penetrate enough, either, the 45-70 guide gun is a gun you can carry easily all the time, and, it's far better then the heavier gun you have in the car, or next to the tree, while fishing. Now what happens is the rifle works on most everything, but, it's not great against dangerous animals. Still, sort of like the 30-06 as well, people want to turn the rifle round into a magic wand, and justify the fact that they are undergunned. Same thing happens with guys with heavy pistols. They think that .500 Linebaugh is really a .500 Nitro express, in their mind. Plus, 45 caliber cartridges just look deadly, and efficent, even if they are a bit marginal. Still, there aren't any lightweight, 5 pound 375 H&H's, 416's or 458 Lotts with 18 inch barrels. So, that sort of explains the desire to have the 45-70 turn into a 458 Lott. Still, I'm not sure many of us would like touching off a 5-6 pound 458 Lott, but, I would carry that over the guide gun, if it was feasible. Also, it's a class war. The guide guns are cheap, and the 45-70 is part of american history. The bigger calibers are mostly not American. G | |||
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Blaser in .375 H&H or .416 Rem Mag with short action and 22 inch barrel weighing 6 1/2 lbs. Now lets see if our host or anyone else (Johan? - how's Hermann?) thinks a Blaser is better or not than a .45/70 Guide gun.
My Grandfather always used to say poor people are poor because they are stupid. A CZ is similar priced. Maybe stupid and xenophobic. Just joking. | |||
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Saeed, Sorry, I should have know better. No problem with the 200 grand. Getting another 7,999 at this site should be easy. Must be twice that number of anties wanting to send you on a hunt. Sure love to see you poke a hippo, lion, ele, and rhino with the now famous four-five-seven-o.  Left the buff out as we all know that is easy shooting. Let's see how many of the big spenders here cough up there share of the 200 gees for the test. I've stated my intent on helping you out.  Roger QSL | |||
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my grandfather used to say "poor people come from Australia, 'cause those obnoxious bastards need to be kept seperate from the decent folks"  Roger: Yes I've made my offer of kicking into the pot too, but as of yet haven't seen ANY of the anti four-five-seven- zero crowd do much except blow hot air! | |||
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You guys all understand the problem with a pissing match is that even the WINNERS get pissed on! I say take what you want to Africa and hunt whatever you want to hunt. As to legality,when I went after cape buffalo with my bow I was required to be able to produce a certain level of kinetic energy.I did, but nobody ever came along to check up on it. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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Dear cry baby sob's you would not beleive it if someone shot the big five with a 45-70 even if you saw film read acounts of same or were there in person to witness the shooting because your mind is made up. So you stick to your opinion and bash the character of anyone who dares disagree with you. That is just so classy. everything is an atack you dont argue you just attack. That is why one true statement applies to all of this bitching and complaining. Arguing with assholes on the internet is like winning the special olympics at the end of the day you guys are still retarded. Now what about 45-120 would that kill anything or does it have to be brit to be good. anglophiles! VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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Crusher, I would opt for the 45/70 over the 45/120, the 45/120 only slightly better at normal loads than the 45/70, but when the 45/70 is loaded to full potential it is a much better choice than the 45/120. even at full potential the 45/70 is still marginal for DG. Look at it this way, lets assume you are going for buff and Ele. you are going to spend around 30,000$ are you going to take a 45/70 and risk all that money losing an animal or are going to invest in a rifle better suited for large heavy thick skinned dangeroius game. I have a 45/70 and a 458 wm which one do you think I would take. The visual killing effect of the two are not even in the same class. when you see an animal like an auodad hit with a 45/70 500gr bullet they take the hit hard but continue to walk. same animal with 458wm is knocked ass over tea kettle and there is no walking. Nobody denies the 45/70 does not have along history and it's not a great round it's just marginal for DG hunting and you don't have to have a british pedigreed round to hunt with just choose the 458 wm/lott, 416 rem mag, 450 dakota. LostHorizonsOutfitters.com ---------------------------- "You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas" Davy Crockett 1835 ---------------------------- | |||
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Well, before we start any more raffles, I'd like to see the original 45/70 one done... Sorry for the bad luck Ann. Though the 45/70 double, with decent loads, would make me feel "better" than a lever gun. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I agree totaly that my 458 lott is for buff and my 45-70 is not! I simply grow tired of 45-70 being lumped in with 22 lr and sticks/rocks with phrases like "could be killed with a spear" 45-70 is marginal for dg but not completely crazy or stupid just not best. and it could be used if you were of a mind. I also dont want to hear about some lever gun short barell bs being the same as my 28 in 45-70 in p17 bolt gun they are not the same game. I will not risk my valuable safari time to prove to dickheads what i already know and they would never believe anyway. there is simply no point. If a 350 gr bullet at 2300 over my chrony out of my rifle with a premeum bullet will work. it is not over presure I still have both eyes 10 fingers and a full set of teeth. I know it will kill a buff in practice and theory and i still would not use it for that. and that is why you must pay for me to do it if you want proof. because i hunt for me not you guys or your proof. if you want to see it done either do it yourself or or put up. Hunting is not a milionares club If some dude wants to kill whatever with his special favorite rifle then help him be sure it will work dont beat him down to prove your right. There is a load for 45-70 that will get it done if just barely so help the guy learn to shoot flies on the wing with it until there is no doubt that he will prevail and if he flubs it and the ph saves his ass then he might not do it again. not my problem just smile and try to help. if he gets killed facing down buff charge hey what a way to go! he wont do that twice. be a good guy try to help be polite it never hurts and could help you in the long run. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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Cats like all trolls has no address, state or country, he is ononomous and makes big claims, that cannot be proved one way or the other...Just pure BS to most of us and hey I don't know anyone that doesn't like 500 grs. but a bunch are not on your boat... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray come on man tell us the truth is good ole 500 letting you peek at the porno mag of his or not. I have no problem with Danny Boy long as he doesn't spout off about posters needing to pass his critque, well that and what a great ele hunter he is. You know how good (he thinks) got after makinbg his very first trip abroad an killing a little tusker on it. | |||
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The feline is feeling cornered, so everyone back away slowly... | |||
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Wowwwwwwww now I'm impressed Sherlock Holmes himself is on the trial. Tell you what Sherlock send me an email or a pm and I'll break down and tell you what you've been fishing for the last few weeks. | |||
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Blaser in 375 R93=2400 US dollars Marlin Guide gun in 45/70=600 US dollars Blaser does NOT compare with Marlin Guide gun. G goes off to look at Savage rifle offerings.... G | |||
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Ray and you forgot to mention that EVEN their mother's think they are WIMPS /// sad people with no friends in life Peter | |||
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Try a CZ 550 in .416, .458 or .375. A better rifle than either and probably similar priced to a Marlin crapgun. In any case I do not understand all this about guys being unable to afford a decent rifle for a cape buffalo hunt. A cape buffalo hunt for a USA based client will cost at least US$9000 including airfares probably a lot more. But the dude can not afford a US$1000 rifle in .375 or .458, so has to take an indequate US$600 rifle.  As my Grandfather used to say ............ Secondly from my ACTUAL experience with people using a Marlin .45/70 on African safaris and from the guys that have written about their experiences (true or otherwise), none of them are poor, none of them are on a first safari. Most are into the STUNT phase and are on their 5th of 25th safari and want to try something different. The others are just trying to sell something like ammunition. Most INTERNET SAFARI HUNTERS proposing a .45/70 safari for DG have not been there and done it and almost certainly never will. If you are too xenophobic to use a foreign made Mauser (or bolt action - hell a Mauser is a German design  ) then you will be way too xenophobic to cope with hunting in a foreign land with all those funny foreignors. | |||
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Actually to add to the "cost" argument, everyone of the rifles I have used in Africa has been a 'second-hand" (or more owners) rifle. Guess I just buy smart. | |||
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 This horse just won't die Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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Yep. CZ isn't exactly known for being a light action, and do you know of a stock that's light enough to get to 7 pounds, with a 18-22 inch barrel? And please don't think I'm defending the 45/70 crowd. I'm just trying to figure out why it evokes such passion. I don't have any such passion with it. I think the best DG use of the 45/70 is in a cross draw shoulder holster, in a 5 shot BFG revolver, as a backup. g | |||
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 -------------------------------- Occum's Razor: The reason the 45/70 crowd keeps lobbying for a free hunt is actually quite simple. Everyone else that can actually afford a trip to Africa and has the balls enough to go can afford a real DG rifle. None of this cheapo 45/70 hoping crap. -------------------------------- I'm not going to try and analogize a 45/70 to anything for the sake of conversation and neither am I going to try dazzle anyone with paper ballistics. People who actually get off their butt and out from behind the computer and actually get outside in the woods and actually kill real animals know that really and truthfully, what's on paper ain't all it cracked up to be. Facts and figures kill mathematicians, engineers, and accountants; not animals. Guns kill animals and big animals require big guns. That has been the written law in many places for years - and its just plain common sense. A dangerous game rifle is a tool and one that has had a lot of thought, experience, and death put into it to be the reasonably perfected version currently available. If a 45/70 would've worked, we'd all be using them. Instead, something bigger was needed. Stop being belligerent and look at the pattern for a moment would you? Or are you one of those helpless, senseless academics who's so caught up in over emphasized data that you ignore common sense and actually experience? In the final summation, I think you just don't have anything better to do with your time, but stir up trouble and mindless, senseless conversation. So please, pack up your bag of tricks and seek your entertainment elsewhere. End this mindless nonesense. I think, until I'm proven wrong, you're trying to prod an otherwise friendly group of people into a long, protracted and unwanted discussion. Therefore, I'm calling you out. Save your pennies and take your rinky-dink 45/70 over to the dark continent and kill a buffalo with it. Do it with one shot as remember, shot placement is key... Then, once you've killed your query, show us some real evidence of it. Then maybe I'll be convinced. Until then, stop this childish rubbish. All you've proved to me is that you're immature and capable of typing. That is my opinion and is not subject to change. Bullshit has been called. Put your money where your mouth is or go home. Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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HMMMMM. You maybe right... G | |||
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