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Steve OOPS Typo, should be 3 things. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Except for weapons which look evil, launch exploding warheads, have projectile larger than .50 caliber, launch more than one projectile with each pull of the trigger, are rifles with barrels shorter than 18", etc, etc, etc. However in most of the known world, there is not Second Amendment and the ownership of firearms is not guaranteed, even to the "MILITIA". -------------------- EGO sum bastard ut does frendo | |||
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SA Authorities adopt a more lenient position on guns - Source: Business Day 24 August 2006 - The SAPS and the ANC have decided against scrapping the compulsory relicensing of all existing legal firearms but they will not refuse re-applications in accordance with the numbers of weapons allowed to individuals under the present act. The South African Police Service (SAPS) and the African National Congress (ANC) have decided against scrapping the compulsory relicensing of all existing legal firearms but they will not refuse re-applications in accordance with the numbers of weapons allowed to individuals under the present act. After a further host of submissions from both pro- and antigun lobby groups, Parliament’s safety and security committee has begun deliberations on changes to the Firearms Control Act. It was initially suggested that the need to relicense should be scrapped but this idea was countered in the latest draft bill. In spite of numerous submissions against this, the SAPS and ANC yesterday refused to budge. Head of SAPS legal services Philip Jacobs said the relicensing provisions should remain. He said the fear that government’s intention was to deny licences for guns that were presently licensed was invalid. If owners who had many guns wanted to retain them, they should ensure that they qualified as owners under the category which stipulated no restrictions on the number of guns an individual could have. For example, to keep more than a specified number of hunting guns, one had to be registered as a professional hunter involved in the hunting business, or be a registered collector. This meant that in the relicensing process, full recognition of existing ownership would be given within the numbers limitations. ANC MP Annelise van Wyk said the party supported the relicensing in the way already provided for in the act. Democratic Alliance MP Dianne Kohler Barnard said there were still dangers of unconstitutionality on the basis of the arbitrary deprivation of property. Keeping the relicensing process neither addressed the applications backlog nor solved “an unworkable situationâ€. Jacobs offered the gun-owning community an olive branch by saying the SAPS was receptive to submissions by firearms collectors on the way in which they would make their weapons “inoperableâ€. He said this process would not damage valuable collectable firearms and new regulations would be drafted in consultation with collectors. However, he said this would not apply to automatic weapons such as AK 47s, which would continue to be restricted in accordance with a Southern African Development Community protocol. OWLS My Africa, with which I will never be able to live without! | |||
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My opinion on re licensing: The CFR does not know who owns what. They need to get their register up to date, that is why they stick to their re licensing project. Their register are not up to date due to bad management and people not capable of doing their jobs properly. The re licensing project will also fail because the people are not qualified to make an informed decission on the motivations provided and they still have bad management. This is what happens when you put unqualified people in a job he must not be in. The gunowners of RSA are the only people who suffer. Their press conferences also suck. If you are declared a dedicated hunter you can also have a unlimited omount of hunting rifles, not only ph's and collectors. If I can give advise to my fellow gun owners, get every possible qualification you can get then nail them with their own legislation Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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Jaco said: “ The re licensing project will also fail because the people are not qualified to make an informed decission on the motivations provided and they still have bad management. This is what happens when you put unqualified people in a job he must not be in. †How very true! Let me give some more specific examples of people who are incompetent to do their jobs: 1. The State President, Mr. Thabo Mbeki has many responsibilities, but one really important job: To appoint competent Cabinet Ministers. How would he be rated on competency given his appointment of Me Mantho Shabalala Maakmybang as his Health Minister? Or, to get closer to the topic, Minister of Safety and Security Mr. Charles Nqakula? 2. Now speaking of Mr. Nqakula, his department spearheaded The Firearms Control Act. IMHO this act has so far achieved only a reduction in the personal safety and security of personal property of those members of the public who had applications to possess legal self-protection firearms refused, or delayed for indefinite periods. Furthermore, as Jaco remarked, the data in the Central Firearms Register is still a FU! How is it hoped the act will help to reduce the number of AK47’s in circulation if the higher echelons of SAPS are clearly concentrating on disarming the general public? Can the Minister of Safety and Security be regarded as competent to do his job? Is there anyone out there who still believes and trusts the SAPS Crime Statistics? 3. Let us look at the record of the Commissioner of Police, Mr. Jackie Selebe…..My verdict: Incompetent! 4. And so on down the ranks to the totally unsympathetic SAPS officer who told ghundwan : “Sorry sir, you will have to re-apply!†Yes Jaco, we are governed by an incompetent bunch of to terrorists who were only competent in gaining the sympathy of unthinking Western Governments to threaten with sanctions while they used bombings and other terrorist methods to overthrow the “oppressive apartheid regime.†Their competency stops there! It is not only that they are incompetent to devise and plan and implement an effective firearms control system, IMHO they are collectively quite incompetent and unable to run a country! I do not agree with Jaco’s statement that it is only the “gunowners†[firearms owners?] who suffer. Not so! What about Joseph, the guy who used to be a general lawn and garden keeper at the now totally defunct XYZ Target Shooting Range? What about the trackers and skinners, maids and other who lost jobs because the SAPS system has put a lot of potential overseas hunter off from coming to South Africa? What about Mary, the tea maid at the now closed down former gunsmith around the corner? What about the gunsmith himself? But most importantly, what about the good law abiding citizens who are being left unarmed – i.e. they are not firearms owners – and totally at the lack of any mercy of the gangs of farm attackers, shop robbers, car highjackers and other manner of armed thugs? The really important group of people who does and will suffer are the new and future employment seekers in a South Africa where foreign investors refrain from coming to, due to the high numbers of violent crimes committed by “have always been illegal†firearms like smuggled AK 47’s. What about the family of murdered people who have to see vast SAPS resources allocated to fighting to disarm the law abiding firearm owners, instead of applying those resources in fighting crime? No, it is definitely not only people who own or want to possess firearms, or want another firearm, that suffer from the in competency and/or an impractical FCA. It is all of us who live in this beautiful country! With that said, let me get on with my life! In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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Yale, Ask me how to plan and arrange an ethical and low budget hunt; that I do well. Ask me how to get close enough for a shot on a lone black wildebeest; that I can do well. Ask me many things about hunting, and I can reply sensibly. At least IMHO I can!  But you ask me a very difficult question. A question to which there is no real correct, or even a good, reply. I will just attempt to put some of my views on paper. Your colleague Jim was quite correct in saying that there are a number of ‘black’ and two white tribes, and none got on really well with each other. In a political sense it is important to realize that the two white tribes, despite being at war with each other about a century ago, generally get on better with each other than with any black tribe. Exactly the same applies to the number of black tribes; they get on better with each other than with any one of the white tribes. Part of the reason is that white man has kept the wars between the black tribes contained to small skirmishes, the old wars of long ago now being mostly forgotten. Now the Afrikaans tribe came into political power in 1948. They recognized the fact that each tribe wants to govern it’s own affairs and implemented a policy of separate development of each black tribe. The though was, and still is, IMHO an excellent solution. It has happened in the former Soviet Republics and former Yugoslavia. Unfortunately, most regrettably the Nationalist Party completely buggered up the implementation by overemphasizing the separateness – i.e. they applied petty apartheid! The world abhorred the petty apartheid and condemned everything that even remotely smelled like apartheid, including the excellent idea of independent tribes within South Africa. In this situation a few farsighted black leaders, like Mr. Mandela and others, realized that if they apply enough terrorist pressure they can, with the help of the unthinking Western powers, take the effective control of political power from the white tribes. Exactly this happened, the USA and indeed just about the whole world, threatened to apply sanctions against South Africa. The ANC planted and exploded bombs, and were greatly assisted by both Eastern and Western powers. Eventually the National Party capitulated and handed the country over to the terrorist alliance, led by the ANC. To now understand the situation I’m going to simplify matters and say there are only three black tribes: Xhosa, a clear majority, Zulu as second biggest black tribe and Others. I’m not a political student, but my guess is that all the Others combined number less than the Zulu? In any case even if Zulu & almost all of the Others joined forces the Xhosa will still outnumber them. Now in a “one-man-one-vote†country the Xhosa tribe rules! When Mr. Mandela (Xhosa) retired as President, and the Deputy President, Mr. Mbeki (Xhosa) became the President. At that time Mr. Jacob Zuma (a Zulu) was appointed Deputy President. Why I don’t quite know. Maybe by creating the totally wrong impression that the next President would be a Zulu, to hoodwink the Zulu nation to support the ANC? Now senior positions and political appointments are made, not to the most competent to do the job, but to the biggest terrorist in the days of “The Struggleâ€! Big bomb planter = big position! No wonder the law and order in this country is in such disarray! Then there is the Reverse Racism Law, although it officially has another name, it is a law that very effectively discriminates against any white person when applications to fill a position are reviewed. Every South African can relate a number of horror stories of cases where very well qualified, competent and capable white applicants for a position were turned down in favor of a totally incompetent and inadequately qualified black female. No wonder the whole of the Government Service is so inefficient and corrupt! Now not to create the impression that I’m a racist I’ll make a clear statement: There are many very, or even extremely, competent black people out there. But you must remember that there is also a law that forces business to have black partners. The really truly competent blacks are in high demand to be appointed by private businesses to abide by the BEE laws. So any competent black is not likely to stay in Government Service very long, before being “bought†by the private firms. No wonder the whole of the Government Service is so inefficient and corrupt! To summarize: Big jobs goes to (1) Xhosas or (2) Big Bomb-planters (3) Incompetents (4) Females (5) Sexually disorientated individuals. (6) And so on down the line with little or no regard for the ability, integrity, qualifications or experience of the applicant. Then the important criterion that decision-makers has to consider: Does he/she have knowledge about your own wrongdoings that can be used against you? If “Yesâ€, you better appoint him/her to keep things nice and cozy for yourself! [Why, despite her conviction, do you think is Winny Mandela still a free person?] Sorry Yale, I simply cannot adequately reply to your question. But I do agree that the inability of the state to safeguard it’s citizens is a strong argument for a situation in which citizens have ready access to and right to bear firearms. On of the problems is that the Zulu nation is renown for its fighters and fighting spirit: Maybe the whole disarmament of the public is actually specifically targeted against the Zulus? In the meantime, let me get on with my life! In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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Being American, and having been educated in the USA, means that I share a few beliefs with many Americans about "rights" which most people in the world ignore. As stated in an earlier post above, all rights are inherent in the people, who then delegate to the State a certain number of enumerated powers (if you live in a Constitutional form of representative government that is). Those powers which are not specifically enumerated as being delegated to the State remain with the people. One of the most far seeing things done by the Founders of the State in the USA was to also specifically restrict the powers of the State in some of the essential rights. THIS IS WHERE THE US REPUBLIC DIFFERS FROM MOST OTHERS. The US Constitution doesn't necessarily say that Americans have the right to freedom of speech for instance, but it does say that Congress cannot pass any laws which restrict that right. Same thing with firearms. I believe I am born with the right to defend myself and it is not negotiable. It has nothing to do with training or the registration of weapons. Politicians who don't share that belief shouldn't be allowed to run for office, as by definition they do not believe in the Constitution of the USA. If they are already in office they should be impeached. The fallacy that firearm laws somehow restrict a criminal's ability to commit crime seems to be believed by a large portion of the world's population and most of the world's politicians. The only organization I know of which spends time, money and effort to inform people to the contrary is the NRA. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Dear Mr. McLaren: I have sent you a private message. Sincerely, Yalie | |||
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" But most importantly, what about the good law abiding citizens who are being left unarmed – i.e. they are not firearms owners – and totally at the lack of any mercy of the gangs of farm attackers, shop robbers, car highjackers and other manner of armed thugs?" Andrew. A very intereseting topic, and I can clearly understand your frustration. Abouth the secuence I quoted... can it be understud that you have the right to defend yourself with lethal force ( with guns ), and in sertain circumstances still be on the right side of the law ? (Ref. the American Second Admenment) If not..an argument about owning guns for self protection is perhaps a political non issue? Living in a country wich was one of the most active in the UN embargo of South Africa, I have got my share of the propaganda against apartheid and RSA. I remember the young students on the streets with their black and white "palestina scarfes" singing "Free Nelson Mandela"........ Arild Iversen. | |||
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ALF, Americans can thank our founding fathers that the constitution can not be changed by a simple majority vote. There are a couple of ways it can be changed, but I think the only one that has ever been used is-- 2/3 vote of both the House of Representaives and the Senate, then ratification by 3/4 of the State's legislatures. I am hopeful that will preserve the 2nd amendment forever--but one never knows the future. The liberal news media certainly attempt to highlight the "other edge of the sword". Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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These are the firearms that should be removed from the SA society causing daily killings of SA citizens. NOT LICENSED AND LEGALLY OWNED FIREARMS which the FCA now are doing at great cost and NO REDUCTION IN CRIME AND ARMED ROBBERIES AND KILLINGS!!!! | |||
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Alf, our constitution has been amended several times since its adoption. However, in the case of individual rights it has always been to extend them or to better define them, not to restrict them. Theoretically a democracy can vote itself into totalitarianism or faschism or communism. However, it is my belief that this is one of the unique features of the American constitution and I suggest that anyone who is interested reread the first ten amendments for example (easy with a google search). Where it says "Congress shall make no law" we are in the realm of true defense of rights. It doesn't say, "If there happens to be a majority in Congress we can restrict rights". As to your part B, of course there is always the danger that the Government will abuse rights, and they have done so in the past for certain groups in certain areas (Japanese Americans during WWII is a glaring example) and there are others. My response is vigilance on the part of the average citizen (in terms of what politicians say and do) as well as vigourous education about individual rights. If we all go to sleep, or accept some McCarthy's demagogy temporarily, you have to redress the grievances, right the wrongs and get back on track. I think the way the US Constitution is written is proof that the drafters didn't think it would be easy to control government and they were right. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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