quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,

No, he's right. The Brits bought and used some big bore doubles to use in the trenches for shooting through the lightly arored or earth and timber sniper ports and such.

I haven't read of anti-tank use, but wouldn't doubt it.

There was a long and interesting thread , with quotes, gun ledgers, photos, etc, on this topic on NitroExpress.com.

JPK

Below is clipped from my earlier post!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I have never seen a double rifle of any kind used as a war weapon. I'm not saying that some may have not been used, but if they were it was a case of reverse use! Instead of the war weapon design being used for hunting, the double would have been a hunting design being used as a war weapon.

That is what I said above! The double rifle was a hunting design, pressed into a special use in war, not a war weapon!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I think EB gets the award for the most succinct explanation of the DR phenomenon. From a hunting view, it's hard to argue against the advantages of a good magazine rifle, in accuracy, range, capacity, ability to handle multiple types of loadings, and ease of optical sight selection and mounting.

.

I agree that a bolt rifle with a scope is more versatile and the better choice from a purely utilitarian perspective for everything but elephants.

Elephants hunting hugely favors the double rifle, at least up close elephant hunting.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Hunt DG with a semi-auto? I'd sooner go to a cowboy action shoot wearing a Goretex jogging suit and sneakers.

I didn't quite know how to sum up my feelings on that, but I think you hit the nail on the head!!!

fast on target... heavy bullets... near instant second shot.... softly quiet reloads....whats not to like on a good double

all that and the weight of all that hunting history

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
Well I am Blaser trash. 416. I love it.
Point by point
1. Speed: I can get 4 shots off in under 5 seconds at 25 yards hitting a pie plate. Now I know you can get two off faster and that may be all it takes.
2. Safety: Ivan said it best two different barrels, advantage double
3. weight: easy one advantage bolt.
4.Price: another easy one. I can pay for an elephant hunt for what one of these cost, advantage bolt.
5. style: that is a toss up in my book, I shoot a Over and under shotgun with one trigger at the clay targets I could never get used to the two triggers.

If money was not an issue I would buy a double not sure I would use it more that a couple of times.
My two Cents

#1: I can get four off faster than five seconds and stay on a pie plate @ 25 yds, and not just stay on the plate but shoot a good 8,9,and 10 ring score ! I did it in 4 seconds flat, and score 36 out of a posible 40 points, and three people beat me, because I forgot the damn auto safety. So your bolt is no advantage on a four effective shots @ 25 yds.

You are right that the Blaser bolt rifle is faster than treditional bolt rifles for four shots, and does have a speed, and accuracy advantage over a Mauser actioned rifle, in a close encounter. However as Ganyana found at the PH qualitying tests the Double proved to be at no disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooters on a four shot timed shoot, for in close accuracy, and speed!

I have carried a PF Winchester .458 WM for 26 years - so far unscratched (Inshallah) - all DG hunting - a few days spent out there...

My protege PH and TOP up and comer Dylan Cloete carries Geoff Wainwright's old .470 krieghoff, has done for 4 or so years now.

We agreed in principle to a shoot off recently while in Burigi game Reserve, NW Tanz. 6 shots (to keep it fair for the double user) at a pie plate at 50yds. All to hit, fastest to put 6 holes in said plate proves efficacy once and for all.

Could have been interesting but small snag. Said DG carrier and top young PH Dylan, despite testosterone talking, was unable to justify the expenditure of 6 x .470 N.E. solids on a bet for a beer. Fair enough too @ $20 a shot.

So...we will never know...

That being said we are both unscratched thus far...

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
We agreed in principle to a shoot off recently while in Burigi game Reserve, NW Tanz. 6 shots (to keep it fair for the double user) at a pie plate at 50yds. All to hit, fastest to put 6 holes in said plate proves efficacy once and for all.

Could have been interesting but small snag. Said DG carrier and top young PH Dylan, despite testosterone talking, was unable to justify the expenditure of 6 x .470 N.E. solids on a bet for a beer. Fair enough too @ $20 a shot.

You should have bet him the cost of the ammunition - double or nothing.

Nothing else puts courage in convictions.

That said, the perfect dangerous game PH rifle is no doubt a double rifle.

For the run of the mill tourist hunter, however, the perceived need for a double is $ > brains, also beyond doubt.

Nothing makes a PH more nervous than a tourist hunter (for full-tilt on the nervousness quotient, a geriatric tourist hunter) who shows up with his "trusty" double.

Unless, of course, the double-toting hunter is also a Russian, who pitches up in camp with a bored, 19 year old, female "translator," a Stoly-class hangover and no booze.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
For the run of the mill tourist hunter, however, the perceived need for a double is $ > brains, also beyond doubt.

.

Mrlexma,

I haven't been able to miss your recent and oft repeated refrain.

But take a guy like me, who grew up shooting shotguns, many SxS's with 2 triggers, and who lived and hunted in a shotgun only deer state. Shotguns, pumps and doubles and 22 lever guns, only.

Jezz, I had ten years of SxS 2 trigger gun experience before I owned my first bolt rifle.

When it came to selecting a DG rifle, I wanted a DR for a lot of reasons, but the primary reason was that by a long shot, because of all of the years of duck and goose hunting, the SxS 2 trigger format is the one that is most natural for me. I open the action and reload without thinking about it, without looking at the ammo or rifle...

Give me a bolt rifle and a tense situation, and I might yank the trigger gaurd off the bolt rifle thinking it was the second trigger. I still try that once a season the first really ugly day I switch to my pump shotgun.

Beyond that though, it doesn't take much SxS two trigger shotgun shooting to make a fellow interested in double rifles handi with the format.

JPK

Prior to me getting double rifles, I hunted with Bolt, Lever, and single shot rifles...

Once I started using doubles, I discovered that the immediately avialable second shot, was of far more value to me that a magazine full of extra rounds.

I did not set out to prove this... I just discovered it while hunting.

In all seriousness, and from a Ph's point of view, MRlexma has a good point. For the average trophy hunter coming to Africa in the hope of taking 10 or more different animals, a double rifle is for most not the best choice.

You are limited by the iron sights as a trophy hunter. Most DR calibres are limited by their medium velocities as well. I have several times been unable to take the huge buffalo I could see on the other side of the herd because of this. You are very unlikely to hunt cats (especially from blinds) with a double.

For elephant hunting, and daga boy hunting - a double in good hands is the cats ass.

With notable exceptions, most US hunters grow up with a bolt action, scoped rifle, and use these best.

Furthermore, about the time most people can afford the double, their eyesight has deteriorated just a bit, making iron sight shooting very much less accurate.

HOWEVER I have 5 or 6 regular clients who love their doubles, love thick skinned game hunting and understand the limitations of carrying the double. These guys are a pleasure to guide and it is even more comforting to have a double (in good hands) near you in the thick bush with wounded dangerous game.

Horses for courses. But if you want to hunt with a double, appreciate its limitations and learn to reload it fast as well.

If the hunter is more inclined to judge his buff hunt by measuring horns, I agree that a double may cost him. But the easy way around this is to have a tracker carry a scoped 375H&H while the hunter carries his double.

I've had the opportunity to switch, but have declined, prefering the experience of getting closer. As luck would have it, I haven't lost an opportunity, an opportunity for the same bull has come about after working a bit harder to get close.

And a 375H&H with a relatively low power variable is a fine cartridge/rifle/scope combo for lots of other game.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
If the hunter is more inclined to judge his buff hunt by measuring horns, I agree that a double may cost him. But the easy way around this is to have a tracker carry a scoped 375H&H while the hunter carries his double.

I've had the opportunity to switch, but have declined, prefering the experience of getting closer. As luck would have it, I haven't lost an opportunity, an opportunity for the same bull has come about after working a bit harder to get close.

And a 375H&H with a relatively low power variable is a fine cartridge/rifle/scope combo for lots of other game.

JPK

True story all round JPK, I would rather track and shoot an old gnarly 35" daga boy with a double in thick bush than snipe a 42" from 150yds. But if its 45" - grab that .375 pronto.

BTW one of my favourite clients is a DG nut and has managed to shoot quite a few buffalo over the years. He has started - somewhat tongue in cheek - an "outer circle" award for the oldest, gnarliest least horned buffalo - amongst his buddies. Competition is intense and I narrowly missed getting a diamond last year in the form of a complete "scrum cap" - no horns at all. Great fun and a poke in the eye for the tape measure boys.

Having been to Africa only once,does not make me an experienced hand at anything at all,I took two rifles,one a bolt the other a double,in tight quarters the double was a joy to carry,just felt so right,I agree there are limitations when using only a double especially for us new comers and has been pointed out eyesight is an issue with open sights,next time over I will bring two doubles,I will have one scoped and the other fitted with a docter optik sight system.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
Well I am Blaser trash. 416. I love it.
Point by point
1. Speed: I can get 4 shots off in under 5 seconds at 25 yards hitting a pie plate. Now I know you can get two off faster and that may be all it takes.
2. Safety: Ivan said it best two different barrels, advantage double
3. weight: easy one advantage bolt.
4.Price: another easy one. I can pay for an elephant hunt for what one of these cost, advantage bolt.
5. style: that is a toss up in my book, I shoot a Over and under shotgun with one trigger at the clay targets I could never get used to the two triggers.

If money was not an issue I would buy a double not sure I would use it more that a couple of times.
My two Cents

#1: I can get four off faster than five seconds and stay on a pie plate @ 25 yds, and not just stay on the plate but shoot a good 8,9,and 10 ring score ! I did it in 4 seconds flat, and score 36 out of a posible 40 points, and three people beat me, because I forgot the damn auto safety. So your bolt is no advantage on a four effective shots @ 25 yds.

You are right that the Blaser bolt rifle is faster than treditional bolt rifles for four shots, and does have a speed, and accuracy advantage over a Mauser actioned rifle, in a close encounter. However as Ganyana found at the PH qualitying tests the Double proved to be at no disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooters on a four shot timed shoot, for in close accuracy, and speed!

"I did it in 4 seconds flat, and score 36 out of a posible 40 points, and three people beat me,"



Wasn't the number three guy shooting a bolt rifle?

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
Hunt DG with a semi-auto? I'd sooner go to a cowboy action shoot wearing a Goretex jogging suit and sneakers.

Tradition!

Which reminds me, you know how to tell the truck driver from the cowboy? Truck driver is the one in the hat and boots.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:

You are limited by the iron sights as a trophy hunter.

sorry guy's
i have only been to africa once, and never shot buff, but from a gunmakers point of wiew, the iron sights are only a problem if you chose not to have your double scoped, so the bolt and the double are alike in that situation, so could we please continue the discussion without an excuse that never were valid in the first place.

best regards

peter

P.s JTHUNT im not picking on your post it were just the nearest one to copy

Scope on a double like cowboy hat on a trucker.

Yes you are right, but its very untraditional...

For perspective, read The Hunting Imperative by Richard Harland. He did elephant control in Zimbabwe with a Mannlicher Schoenauer 458 Winchester. Probably killed more elephants than all the posters on AR combined. Best recall is his magazine held four with one chambered. Push feed allowed easy single loading after depletion.

Doubles are beautiful and powerful but Harland killed five-six elephants at a time,needed more rapid firepower.

I would like to see actual documentation where the British used doubles in the trenches of WWl.

I do know, that they used the 318 Westley Richards Express, to shoot through the steel of German Loop Holes.

But I have never seen in print where they used doubles.

I KNOW I can shoot 4 shots from a 4 shot bolt rifle faster than I can shoot 4 shots from a double... That is IF the bolt rifle does not have a malfunction...

However, after you have fired the 4 shots from the bolt rifle you have much more down time, while reloading, which can be a problem under stress...

The double is easier to keep "up and running", IMHO.

If you fire one shot, and do not fire the second, for any reason, and do not see the immediate needc to fire it, then it is easy, quickly, and if your double rifle is an ejector gun, you can silently reload...

ANYTHING I could do in Africa with a scoped 375 H&H I can and HAVE done with a scoped 9,3x74R.

quote:

Originally posted by armorer:...Richard Harland....Probably killed more elephants than all the posters on AR combined

Actually, this should read "all the OTHER posters" as Mr Harland is a member of AR. Sadly Richard has not posted for some time, but I'd hope he still checks-in once in a while. His input on a topic such this would be terrific.

Doubles...yes, I would like one just to see if they are for me...but I keep spending the money on hunting elephants with my bolt-trash! Maybe one of these days I'll get that Heym that I lust for. Shame Chris does not offer pay-as-you-go plans!

Bill C.,thanks for the amendment on Richard Harland being an AR poster, as I have not seen such in several years of reading AR. The dvd "Hunting The African Elephant" by Charlton McCallum Safaris has an interview with him,"aswell"as two other legendary hunters. He is a very articulate speaker as well as writing with clarity and color.
Now, I hope Paul Grobler has not been posting here at some point in the distant past as he was Richard's mentor and really piled up the elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
If the hunter is more inclined to judge his buff hunt by measuring horns, I agree that a double may cost him. But the easy way around this is to have a tracker carry a scoped 375H&H while the hunter carries his double.

I've had the opportunity to switch, but have declined, prefering the experience of getting closer. As luck would have it, I haven't lost an opportunity, an opportunity for the same bull has come about after working a bit harder to get close.

And a 375H&H with a relatively low power variable is a fine cartridge/rifle/scope combo for lots of other game.

JPK

True story all round JPK, I would rather track and shoot an old gnarly 35" daga boy with a double in thick bush than snipe a 42" from 150yds. But if its 45" - grab that .375 pronto.

BTW one of my favourite clients is a DG nut and has managed to shoot quite a few buffalo over the years. He has started - somewhat tongue in cheek - an "outer circle" award for the oldest, gnarliest least horned buffalo - amongst his buddies. Competition is intense and I narrowly missed getting a diamond last year in the form of a complete "scrum cap" - no horns at all. Great fun and a poke in the eye for the tape measure boys.

Ok! 45" and the 375H&H comes out!

On my very first safari, I had the opportunity of taking a scrum cap bull. He was alone, and had been having a go with lions, or so his wounds told us. I had quota for two bulls and one just hair shy of 40" in the salt. I passed and began regretting it almost immediately. Been looking for a knarly old scrum cap since then.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by armorer:
Bill C.,thanks for the amendment on Richard Harland being an AR poster, as I have not seen such in several years of reading AR. The dvd "Hunting The African Elephant" by Charlton McCallum Safaris has an interview with him,"aswell"as two other legendary hunters. He is a very articulate speaker as well as writing with clarity and color.
Now, I hope Paul Grobler has not been posting here at some point in the distant past as he was Richard's mentor and really piled up the elephants.

Don't forget that those two other elephant hunting legends both prefered double rifles!!!

Sten Cedegren - 500NE
Ian Nychens - 450NE No2

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I would like to see actual documentation where the British used doubles in the trenches of WWl.

I do know, that they used the 318 Westley Richards Express, to shoot through the steel of German Loop Holes.

But I have never seen in print where they used doubles.

Try a search on NitroExpress.com in the double rifles forum. One poster posted in the trench photos and military records as well as order or sales ledgers. Quite and interesting thread.

About a year ago, I think.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Scope on a double like cowboy hat on a trucker.

Yes you are right, but its very untraditional...

no mate, it is actually a very traditional way of doing it i have in my possion a very early 450/400 3 1/4" daniel fraser kitted out for scope, and you see quite a few rifles made with this, it is all a matter of choise in the end

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
"I did it in 4 seconds flat, and score 36 out of a posible 40 points, and three people beat me,"



Wasn't the number three guy shooting a bolt rifle?

Hell I don't know but I don't think so. However who ever it was it sounded like he was shooting a machinegun!

...............

quote:

Originally posted by armorer:
For perspective, read The Hunting Imperative by Richard Harland. He did elephant control in Zimbabwe with a Mannlicher Schoenauer 458 Winchester. Probably killed more elephants than all the posters on AR combined. Best recall is his magazine held four with one chambered. Push feed allowed easy single loading after depletion.

Sorry but I have a news flash for you the Mannlicher Shoenauer M72 that Harland used was not a push feed rifle, they are control round feed, from a fixed rotery magazine. The push feed Mannlichers are the STEYR MANNLICHERS. When they quite making the Mannlicher Shoenauer and switched to the Steyr Mannlicher rifles, is when I quite buying Mannlicher rifles.

The Mannlicher Shoenauer M72 is a rare rifle today, and if you can find one that is for sale, you can expect to pay more for it than a good used Merkel Double rifle. They were only made from 1975 to around 1980, and few of them were chambered for 458 Win Mag, most were chambered for 375 H&H, and 300 Win Mag.

quote:

Doubles are beautiful and powerful but Harland killed five-six elephants at a time,needed more rapid firepower.

Richard Harland is a bolt rifle man, and he certainly can shoot his rifle, but that has nothing to do with fire power, Tayler shot ele seven or eight at a time, with a double rifle, and the Mannlicher only holds 4 rounds with one in the chamber, and three down, and I assure you a good man with a double can get off eight shots from a double faster than a good man with a Manlicher Shoenauer with the very slow reload in the middle. That rifle must be re-loaded from the top, and one the reload you will only get three down, because it takes too much time to get one in the chamber with the mag full, and if you load noe from the magazine into the chamber it will be ejected when you pull the bolt back to load another in the Magazine. So the most you can get is 4 shot from the rifle loaded with one in the chamber, and 3 down,with a re-load of three down, you've only got 7 shots max. What all this boils down to is two guys who are equally perfecient with their rifles, one with the M-72 Mannlicher Shoenauer, and the other with a double rifle, there is no advantage to the bolt rifle for eight aimed shots.

..................

You guys still arguing about this?

Neither is better. It would be better to have one or the other in a particular situation. That's why God made gunbearers.

Harland, not "Hartlant" certainly admired English doubles, see page 98, pgh. four of book previously referenced. There also is his stated preference for his 458 MS (see Guns America, $2,500, ad closed). His best referenced shoot therin was twenty-plus elephants with Tsuro backing him up.
His mentor, Paul Grobler, killed forty-nine elephants on one ocassion with his 416 Rigby. See African Epic, (Richard Harland, 2003).

Mr. Hunt, you are in good company, as one Harry Selby spent many years with a 458 Win. Model 70 push-feed after wearing out his John Rigby 416. As with the MS you can directly load the chamber, bypassing the magazine. A couple of our Zim professional hunters use this same rifle.

A Mannlicher-Schoenauer (not the newer Steyr) in 458 is the Cat's Nuts of bolt rifles. I'd like to find one!...Biebs

quote:

Neither is better. It would be better to have one or the other in a particular situation. That's why God made gunbearers.

Bravo!

I should have known this but I just learned that Krieghoff offers a QD peep for their doubles ... if this works as it should, it elevates the double a notch or two. Anybody used one of these?

One spends a lot more time at home with a double than he does hunting with it in Africa.

A lot of the fun of a double is loading for it, experimenting with different loads and bullets, shooting at milk jugs or big rocks, cleaning it and just generally practicing with it for the next time you take it to Africa, Australia or South America.

Of course that is true of bolt rifles also but with a double it is more of a challenge and therefore more interesting.