Mainly I am wondering if people would choose to go to a semi-auto if they were legal. There are plenty of semi-autos that have spectacular reliability records. It wouldn't be a tough trick to make a big bore semi auto that would go tens of thousands without a single hick-up.
Or is it nostalgia, or the option of two different bullets?

For me, a big part of hunting in Africa the is nostalgia. The double rifle adds to the hunt in that respect. Life gets no better than walking with a PH with a double on my shoulder.

because not enough people have read "The Gospel According to Ganyana" and realized that all you need is a 9,3x62.

Seriously, the bullets were not as good, and the fast second shot was often a lifesaver. Boom-Boom, that fast.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
For me, a big part of hunting in Africa the is nostalgia. The double rifle adds to the hunt in that respect. Life gets no better than walking with a PH with a double on my shoulder.

That is true Mike. It is different and you also have to get in a little closer, which adds to the intensity and the excitement.

I would love to be able to hunt with a double. Those that do have a very nostalgic hunt, like the good old days. I'm just bolt trash for a long time now.

$ > brains - would be my guess.

But I would not use anything but a bolt rifle, a double or a single shot, in that order, so I ain't smart enough to be trusted, in any case.

A double offers two real advantages. A very fast second shot and the ability to carry a soft in one barrel and a solid in the other - see PH hit by elephant whilst hunting lion story.

For a Pro Guide (as oposed to PH) I belive that a double is just about manditory- you can vever be sure what trouble you are going to run into.

I have practiced on the range with my Krieghoff and I can get two shots into the A zone on a IPSC target with just 1/10 of a second between them.

Yes there are good semi Auto's- and they are perfectly legal here in Zim. I remember Roy Vincent building up a .416 taylor on a BAR as his lion/leopard gun. And realistically, in terms of an accurate second shot- a semi Auto makes alot of sence for those of us who grew up using a military rilfe - that double tap- or even mozambique drill just comes naturally.

A big part of the issue is availability- BAR's are not exactly common in Africa. There was a lad converting Garands to .458 win, and 9,3 a few years ago- played with the .458 version- nice, much less felt recoil that a bolt etc...but I can dial Krighoff (or Heym) and have a new double in 6 months- and know I have some back up.

Last (small) consideration- if you are serious about using a double, most makers offer spare shotgun barrels- I have 28g and have taken to shooting both skeet and sporting clays with mine to a) get used to it and b) for practice on fast moving targets....One day I'll be like PWN who was busting clays with his double on the trap range...using solids.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I'll be like PWN who was busting clays with his double on the trap range...using solids.

My grandfather used to do that when shooting clays in England while stationed there in WW2. He also used to shoot pheasants all the time with his .30-06. I consider myself a better than average shot, but at my best I pale at his ability. He should have been a PH!!! RIP grandfather.

As previously stated doubles are part of the ambiance of safari and make it all the more sexy, classy, and exciting!!!!

Brett

If Icould afford a good double, I'd hunt one. buff in the thick stuff is ideal for one. I guess I'm permanent bolt trash, but at least I've had the opportunity to hunt old blackie a couple of times.

as people have said , a big part is truly the nostalgia of chasing the classic safari experience with a double rifle on ones shoulder.

secondly the quick second shot when at close range with dangerous game is a very very important consideration ..you would get that with a semi auto .

thirdly in the case of a misfire , you instantly have a whole second loaded barrel , with a whole second action , actually the only thing they share is the safety , so there is that much less chance of failure . this could and would be a big issue if you had a jam or a bad round .

a non hunting related advantage is that doubles generally hold their value better than bolt guns by virtue of the fact that a great many of them are custom fine guns and cannot be bought just factory made off the shelf .

I would hate to have been a beater in the line when your grandfather was loosing 30-06 rounds into the air!

For me, the attraction is ergonomic and aesthetic. No semi-auto will ever match the ergonomics of a well-fitted double.

They feel better, that's why.

Absolute truth: double rifles are for the hunter with small penis syndrome.

I've always thought of the open sighted double rifle as the hunting weapon for those that have honed their hunting and shooting skills to the point where only one round is required-someone who has been on alot of hunts and done alot of shooting.A very patient person with a good character.

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
Absolute truth: double rifles are for the hunter with small penis syndrome.

Sounds like someone is preocupied with that syndrome!

............. ..............

cuz I look so cool carrying one.

It is certainly true that nostalgia plays a big part in the idea when one first buys, or starts thinking of buying his first double rifle. However, once he gets one, and puts it to the use it was designed for, he soon discovers the value of that plateform.

The double rifle is a very useful tool, and is the only firearm that was designed from the start as a hunting rifle! All other types were first made to defend on's self against other people, and were simply used for hunting as a secondary use. The double rifle has never been a war weapon, and it is the only type that you can say that about. So, in the end if you are a hunter who uses a double rifle you are useing a proper rifle for that purpose.

The double rifle is haveing the benefit of two rifles, while only carrying one rifle. As was said by someone above what you have is two fully indipendant rifles on one stock. You have one rifle loaded with a soft bullet, and another one loaded with a solid. In a nanosecond you can select which rifle you want to use, and if that one missfires, on a dud, or anything in the action breaks in any way, you have instant access to the other rifle, by simply changeing triggers. Even if one side is out of service completely, you still have a working single shot. With a bolt, single shot, or Simi-auto, if it breaks, miss fires, or jams, you are out of service as well, and in many cases where a double is best used that out of service bolt may be permanent for the shooter.

The properly made double rifle is a fine work of art, even the field grade ones, and ballanced so that the rifle almost aims it's self. the double rifle is designed so that with care you can shoot game at fairly long range, and up close, you can shoot instinctively, and be right on target with a very quick double tap that is as natural as pointing your finger.
In the final analysis when the crap hits the fan nothing else can compare to a man with a double rifle, who understands how to use it!

......... .............

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
cuz I look so cool carrying one.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
Absolute truth: double rifles are for the hunter with small penis syndrome.

Sounds like someone is preocupied with that syndrome!

............. ..............

Ain't that the truth. Total bommerang on that stupid comment.

They are beautiful tools, and reflect the finest gunmaking skills. They are wonderfully efficient at providing two shots quick. They point like a dream -- at least the good ones do. They provide a heady dose of nostalgia and history. They allow you to say "I gave him a right and a left" without referring to the boxing ring. And as Will says, they just plain look cool.

It all looks cool and sexy but I dont think a lot of people realize it but an open sighted double rifle is a specialized tool best suited for certain applications like elephant hunting and following up wounded dangerous game. One is far better off with a scoped rifle for everything else.

Needless to say one has to have good eye sight and lots of practice as well with it before they embark on a $$$ safari with an even more $$$$$$ double rifle.

quote:

The double rifle has never been a war weapon,

Mac, I've seen photos of British marksmen in WWI using what were described as "elephant guns" against tanks and pill boxes...I think they were doubles but not impossible it was magazine guns..

Anyway, the double IS an automatic..for the second shot.

You can bet, someone will produce a .600 one day in a bottom feeder. Why? To prove it can be done. I assume it will be a gas op with an extra capacity mag..

Will it sell? Of course. For the same reason the .700 sells now in a double. And for the same reason the S&W .500 sells. Can we say "My gun's bigger than yours"?

One reason doubles are popular that no one's mentioned..it's because of collectors of "fine guns" who just like the look and feel but will see Africa only in their dreams. I'll bet both new ones are ordered and old classics are bought with nothing more in mind and that many will never even be fired.

Nobody has mentioned three "slight" problems with the traditional double rifle: if you are over 50, you will have trouble with the iron sights. This makes any shot longer than 60 yards iffy. Tracking wounded buffalo is NOT cool or fun. On too many hunts, where the client has used a double, the hunt has ended with the PH shooting the wounded animal with his 458 while the exhausted client sits out, or trails behind.

I recommend a ghost ring setup on a good bolt rifle for this reason. It's fast and accurate. And easier to carry. NECG, XS, Brockman, and even Williams sell these. They are the default sighting solution on our Bad Boy IV (Mauser 98) and Bad Boy VIII (Steyr) rifles.

Yes, you can put a scope on a double but that negates the portability and quick shooting qualities of the gun. Some (very few) doubles have aperture sights and this is a good solution but it's hard to do this neatly. I think a clever gunmaker could solve this. A neatly installed popup ghost ring would go a long way to making doubles more effective in the hands of us old farts.

The second problem is carrying weight. In any kind of DG caliber (other than 9.3), a double starts to get HEAVY. And since most don't like slings on their guns, this can be painful. When you are 5 miles into the bush on a 100 degree day, nobody cares how "cool" you look. Handing the rifle to a tracker isn't "cool" either, and it defeats the whole raison d'etre of a double rifle.

The final issue is regulation. Doubles are regulated for one load and may not shoot at all well with any other load. They also shoot differently, depending on your hold or shooting position. This again limits their effective range. Some modern guns, eg the FinnClassic 512, some Merkels, and the Blaser, are designed with adjustable regulation, solving this particular problem.

Having said that, I make money selling doubles. They are unbelievably seductive and for the traveling hunter who can use one effectively, there is no sweeter setup than a DR with an extra set of shotgun barrels. And yes, they do tend to appreciate, with the exception of the modern production guns which are now plentiful and have little appreciation potential (unless our dollar tanks further, but then everything will "appreciate", even a used car).

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

The double rifle has never been a war weapon,

Mac, I've seen photos of British marksmen in WWI using what were described as "elephant guns" against tanks and pill boxes...I think they were doubles but not impossible it was magazine guns..

I think you are refering to the recoiless anti-tank rifles used by both Germany, and the Britts. Both were single shots, and fired a single large explosive armor piercing bullet. The tanks in WW I had little opening for the driver, and crew to look out of, and those rifles were fairly accurate and the shooter would try to place one of those explosive rounds through one of those hole to explode inside the turret, or drivers area. I hve never seen a double rifle of any kind used as a war weapon. I'm not saying that some may have not been used, but if they were it was a case of reverse use! Instead of the war weapon design being used for hunting, the double would have been a hunting design being used as a war weapon.

quote:

;reddy375
It all looks cool and sexy but I dont think a lot of people realize it but an open sighted double rifle is a specialized tool best suited for certain applications like elephant hunting and following up wounded dangerous game. One is far better off with a scoped rifle for everything else.

Reddy where have you been scopes are only sights, and can be installed on any rifle!

On a bolt rifle the scope is primary sight, but a proper hunting bolt rifle will have good irons sights as well,for special purposes, and the scope mounted in good Quick detach rings & bases, the return to zero every time it is removed and replaced. The only difference with a double rifle is, the IRONS are primary, and a scope in quick detach mounts is a secondary sight for special purposes.
The total opposition of properly mounted scope sight for a double rifle amazes me! Any one with a lick of sense, uses the best sight he can for his own use, and even more so on a rifle used for dangerous game. "COVER THY ASS" is the name of the game here!

I would love a double rifle, I guess I am bolt trash as well. I have always thought the doubles were too pricey for me and cost prohibitive. If I paid that much money for a gun,,, it would give me "the vapors" or whatever to check it as luggage on the airlines with how they treat the cargo now days. If you see the airline employees ripping a gun case out of someones hands and drag him away you will know I finally gave in and bought a double,,, just couldn't turn loose of it!

Mac, you could well be right on the war use, and this is just my recollection, but I was going by a film clip I saw possibly on the military channel with WWI footage and the accompanying narrative. It was on the history of early tank development and showed a British infantryman standing and aiming the weapon. The exact words, more or less, were that they even brought in some sporting weapons used for elephant in Africa to try against early tanks and pill boxes. I'm also familiar with recoiless rifles and that's not what the gun looked like. I thought it looked like a double. Perhaps someone here remembers more about that episode.

Even a field grade double is like a jaguar convertible with the top down. Sleek, sexy, and that 510HP supercharged V8 provides just enough power to move the earth.

Like I say when people ask me why a double: Boom-Boom!

Rich

This is basically the sequence of events leading to a double rifle...a life long hunter (me )never thinks much about hunting in Africa...why would you want to go all that way to shoot a bunch of animals just standing around in the open? Then one day you read a book, maybe White Hunter, by J.A. Hunter, or maybe (heaven forbid) Death in the Long Grass. Then you read some more books, by Selous, Bell, etc., etc. Then you read everything you can get your hands on...then you plan a trip to finally go to Africa. You look around and buy a good "African" rifle, for me a Kimber of Oregon (Clackamas) African in .416 Rigby and you go hunt your first buff or two. Then you don't really want to hunt anything else, anywhere else.

Then you start thinking about maybe hunting an elephant and you start thinking about a double rifle. So you finally buy one, say in .470 Nitro and it's a beautiful great gun and fits you like a great shotgun and you start shooting it and you absolutely love it. You shoot it all the time. And when you can't shoot it at the range, you use it to hunt wild boar in the thick stuff. And you love it. You pass up some shots as "too far", but it's being in the thick stuff that counts. Nevermind that your eyes aren't what they used to be at short range, out to 75 yards you are still plenty accurate enough.

You finally take it to Africa and use it to kill your first elepahant at 10 yards and a buff at 25, even though you had to pass up a great bull at 110 yards that you couldn't get closer to and even though the tracker was carrying the .416 at the time. And you loved it even more and never regretted it for a minute and you don't care about the big bull you couldn't shoot, because getting close to the one you did get was all that mattered.

And now you spend all your time thinking about what your next double is going to be and the next one after that and how the hell you are going to pay for all of them even if you do find them. I think that's why guys use double rifles. Just my two cents.

A sidelock double is more like in the Aston Martin league...

Ganyana said it all - the quick second shot. (I suspect that Ganyana and I belong to a generation that believed (in military terms nowadays) that "aimed fire" is better than "saturation fire". There's also perhaps another aspect - belief in the big bullet as a true "stopper" at close range. (Despite my user name -and my 375 performed as well as could have been expected of any cartridge on a buff) {It killed him on the spot - the "insurance shot" was just that -almost unnecessary and just to make sure that a downed buff stayed down) I much admire stories of people much more experienced than me in Africa going for DG - that getting into deep brush after a buff can be a very "hairy experience" (to use an expression of my youth) It certainly seems to me (who never had to face the experience)that I would want a big bullet from a rifle that I could fire as quickly as I could without anything more than using a trigger finger. When I had time to absorb that I had dropped a buff at nearer than between 30-35 yards - and I have said this before in this forum -I would want a recoilless rifle next time around! (BTW, to any people contemplating a double - I shot my PH's double in 470,N.E. about a dozen times - and found it to be like my 375 - a push (a little harder push but nothing like a jolting recoil or "kick". (I shot a 338 Win. Magnum at a range once and found it a thorughly unpleasant experience. I leave it to the techs to say why that was so.

quote:

Originally posted by Small Bore:
I would hate to have been a beater in the line when your grandfather was loosing 30-06 rounds into the air!

Clays with slugs in England/ pheasants on the wing with a .30-06 back home in Ohio. No beaters.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

The double rifle has never been a war weapon,

Mac, I've seen photos of British marksmen in WWI using what were described as "elephant guns" against tanks and pill boxes...I think they were doubles but not impossible it was magazine guns..

I think you are refering to the recoiless anti-tank rifles used by both Germany, and the Britts. Both were single shots, and fired a single large explosive armor piercing bullet. The tanks in WW I had little opening for the driver, and crew to look out of, and those rifles were fairly accurate and the shooter would try to place one of those explosive rounds through one of those hole to explode inside the turret, or drivers area. I hve never seen a double rifle of any kind used as a war weapon. I'm not saying that some may have not been used, but if they were it was a case of reverse use! Instead of the war weapon design being used for hunting, the double would have been a hunting design being used as a war weapon.

quote:

;reddy375
It all looks cool and sexy but I dont think a lot of people realize it but an open sighted double rifle is a specialized tool best suited for certain applications like elephant hunting and following up wounded dangerous game. One is far better off with a scoped rifle for everything else.

Reddy where have you been scopes are only sights, and can be installed on any rifle!

On a bolt rifle the scope is primary sight, but a proper hunting bolt rifle will have good irons sights as well,for special purposes, and the scope mounted in good Quick detach rings & bases, the return to zero every time it is removed and replaced. The only difference with a double rifle is, the IRONS are primary, and a scope in quick detach mounts is a secondary sight for special purposes.
The total opposition of properly mounted scope sight for a double rifle amazes me! Any one with a lick of sense, uses the best sight he can for his own use, and even more so on a rifle used for dangerous game. "COVER THY ASS" is the name of the game here!

Mac,

No, he's right. The Brits bought and used some big bore doubles to use in the trenches for shooting through the lightly arored or earth and timber sniper ports and such.

I haven't read of anti-tank use, but wouldn't doubt it.

There was a long and interesting thread , with quotes, gun ledgers, photos, etc, on this topic on NitroExpress.com.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by EB:
This is basically the sequence of events leading to a double rifle...a life long hunter (me )never thinks much about hunting in Africa...why would you want to go all that way to shoot a bunch of animals just standing around in the open? Then one day you read a book, maybe White Hunter, by J.A. Hunter, or maybe (heaven forbid) Death in the Long Grass. Then you read some more books, by Selous, Bell, etc., etc. Then you read everything you can get your hands on...then you plan a trip to finally go to Africa. You look around and buy a good "African" rifle, for me a Kimber of Oregon (Clackamas) African in .416 Rigby and you go hunt your first buff or two. Then you don't really want to hunt anything else, anywhere else.

Then you start thinking about maybe hunting an elephant and you start thinking about a double rifle. So you finally buy one, say in .470 Nitro and it's a beautiful great gun and fits you like a great shotgun and you start shooting it and you absolutely love it. You shoot it all the time. And when you can't shoot it at the range, you use it to hunt wild boar in the thick stuff. And you love it. You pass up some shots as "too far", but it's being in the thick stuff that counts. Nevermind that your eyes aren't what they used to be at short range, out to 75 yards you are still plenty accurate enough.

You finally take it to Africa and use it to kill your first elepahant at 10 yards and a buff at 25, even though you had to pass up a great bull at 110 yards that you couldn't get closer to and even though the tracker was carrying the .416 at the time. And you loved it even more and never regretted it for a minute and you don't care about the big bull you couldn't shoot, because getting close to the one you did get was all that mattered.

And now you spend all your time thinking about what your next double is going to be and the next one after that and how the hell you are going to pay for all of them even if you do find them. I think that's why guys use double rifles. Just my two cents.

I don't keep a diary and I don't share stuff like this with my wife or even my non-elephant hunting friends, so HOW THE HELL DID YOU KNOW?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
No, he's right. The Brits bought and used some big bore doubles to use in the trenches for shooting through the lightly arored or earth and timber sniper ports and such.

+1

German snipers shot from behind metal plates that would deflect normal rounds. Doubles where indeed used for this as well as some limited use in shooting mines at sea.

Brett

PS. Now I'm questioning myself. That may have been just single shots they used for the mines with NE calibre/cartridges.

I think EB gets the award for the most succinct explanation of the DR phenomenon. From a hunting view, it's hard to argue against the advantages of a good magazine rifle, in accuracy, range, capacity, ability to handle multiple types of loadings, and ease of optical sight selection and mounting.

BUT! After a while, you've shot lots of game, and start to look for additional challenge and satisfaction. Then you start to value the tradition, the coolness factor, and the satisfaction in hunting close and personal, the old fashioned way, and you enter the realm of the double rifle. Similar to fishing...at first catching the fish is the goal, then you've caught enough fish that the allure becomes HOW you catch the fish....enter fly fishing, fly tying, and the satisfaction of landing a fish with 2 lb tippets on a fly you tied yourself. You'd catch more fish with a spinning rod and lures or bait, but by the time you've progressed to this point, it's no longer just about catching the fish.

advantges of doubles are:
1- double firing pine and firing system, in case a one is broken you have still one more barrel to use.
2-shorter ovaral length, more handy.
3- more positive extraction than bolt actions, due to lower pressure and bigger case
4-finally fast second shot.
backdraw price expensive even too expensive .
regulating the barrels often very difficult withdifferent ammo

I'll just say it one more time: Elephant/Buffalo twenty feet away, coming for you. Boom-
Boom!

Rich

Well I am Blaser trash. 416. I love it.
Point by point
1. Speed: I can get 4 shots off in under 5 seconds at 25 yards hitting a pie plate. Now I know you can get two off faster and that may be all it takes.
2. Safety: Ivan said it best two different barrels, advantage double
3. weight: easy one advantage bolt.
4.Price: another easy one. I can pay for an elephant hunt for what one of these cost, advantage bolt.
5. style: that is a toss up in my book, I shoot a Over and under shotgun with one trigger at the clay targets I could never get used to the two triggers.

If money was not an issue I would buy a double not sure I would use it more that a couple of times.
My two Cents

Hunt DG with a semi-auto? I'd sooner go to a cowboy action shoot wearing a Goretex jogging suit and sneakers.

Forget all that stuff about what is better. Doubles are just cooler. A second set of barrels in 28 gauge? Gawd, that's too cool.

And what's this about old eyes can't shoot open sights? I am 65. With open sights I can put the first few in about 6, at 100 yards, offhand, not from some rest. Course I wear glasses.

If bolt rifles are better for quick shooting, why don't they make bolt action shotguns?

I'm new to the DR scene as far as being an owner of such a rifle, but I've ALWAYS wanted to walk in the steps of great hunters past and hunt DG with a DR over my shoulder.. That said, I'll be back in Zim again next year to chase buff and elephant.. This time with a 470 as medicine. Been waiting to do that since I read Ruark back when I was 10 or so.

jeff, I've been thinking about becoming Blaser trash myself.. I've used one to take red stag, Him tahr and chamois (best shot Ive ever made).. it was chambered in 300Win. Never shot one in a med or big bore though.. Been kicking the idea around!