After reading another interesting post by the Rhino Rebel Alan Bunn, I must admit that something popped up in his Rhino post that happened to me in the last two weeks.

Alan mentioned a PH shooting a Rhino for a Vietnamiese client. I have heard a lot of stories of PH's shooting trophies for clients...(collectors) but never made much of it.

Untill last week. Client booked a Leopard hunt. Client had 4 chances in the first week to shoot Leopard. Never got close to doing it. I'm pulling my hair out of my head..... Then the interperter comes to me and ask if I will shoot the Leopard for him. I was never given an explanation why. Of course the Leopard never came in again. It also became clear as we started shooting PG that this client was no hunter, but only a collector that wanted as many full mounts of Animals in his house. Not unlike an art collector. Thus a Eland and some other game fell before other rifles, but not the clients.....

IT is bizzare, for sure, and if I know it before hand, do not think I would ever book such a hunt again.

MAybe we as pro's should start asking hunting ref.from clients as well.....lol!

Not defending anyone, just experienced for the first time the utter frustration of a collector that is NOT a hunter.

Now that is really strange???!!!!
JCHB

Tell your collector I will do his hunting and charge him nothing. He only has to pay the safaris and TF and i will pay my ticket planes and do the hunting for him.

quote:

Originally posted by dwarf416:
Tell your collector I will do his hunting and charge him nothing. He only has to pay the safaris and TF and i will pay my ticket planes and do the hunting for him.

I am happy to do it, too!

Only one question - Is he breaking the law? If not what is the difference between this man and a man that goes to a auction and buys mounts. They can tell what ever story to their friends they want. Of course your client can in truth say he was there for the kill, eh. Of more concern to me are those that look down on this man as if they are superior to him.

I guess I'd be third in line behind dwarf416 & caracal for that hunt, I'd be glad to help!

quote:

Originally posted by dwarf416:
Tell your collector I will do his hunting and charge him nothing. He only has to pay the safaris and TF and i will pay my ticket planes and do the hunting for him.

I was about to say the same thing.

So if this client tried to rebook you would tell him NO???

quote:

Of more concern to me are those that look down on this man as if they are superior to him.

Why are you so concerned about that?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So if this client tried to rebook you would tell him NO???

YES, I will never host him in my camp again!

Remember, the client never stated his abilities or interest. He just booked the hunt. Talking about assumption being the mother of all....

Any case, it is illegal in S.A., for anyone else to shoot an animals that has a tag issued in a specific persons name.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:


Remember, the client never stated his abilities or interest. He just booked the hunt....

Well did you ask him??

I can't for the life of me figure out how these guys can have someone else shoot their animals and they be proud of it. Although, this seems to have been a known practice even back in the early days of safari hunting.

Me personally, I don't want anyone but ME shooting my animals unless they're charging. The issue, to me, is kind of like a dog peeing on a tree, last one to pee on the tree owns it.

I side with you Carl. There are those of us who hunt because it is in our blood. I hunt Africa because it stirs that instinct more than anywhere else. Although a good trophy is nice the important thing is the quality of the experiance. For me that means taking my own animals. Then there are the "Bucket List" guys. I don't believe they are tru hunters, but just want to do it all.

Stick by your guns Carl. There are plenty of guys like Theunis D.B. who will take these people,( I won't call them hunters). They probably deserve each other.

Sam, first I can't abide condesending people. Second I said if lawful and according to Infinito it is against the law, that said how many PH finish game be it a cat or say a wildebeast. Maybe outfitters should add to their info list "You must be able to hunt for yourself" this does not include the fact you must have a PH by law. etc etc.

Maybe the outfitter should ask the client "can you afford this hunt at my prices". Oh Boy!

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Sam, first I can't abide condesending people. Second I said if lawful and according to Infinito it is against the law, that said how many PH finish game be it a cat or say a wildebeast. Maybe outfitters should add to their info list "You must be able to hunt for yourself" this does not include the fact you must have a PH by law. etc etc.

Maybe the outfitter should ask the client "can you afford this hunt at my prices". Oh Boy!

Apologies if it came across as condescending, but I struggle to accept this kind of thing. Don't care if it's legal or illegal, I disagree with it.

"Have Gun Will Travel"- put me 5th in line to take care of the shooting. Would that be at the observer rate?

Maybe you could consider it a cull hunt!

It is sad that these people will never understand what hunting is, means, and how spiritual it is. They also make the rest of us look bad.

After taking my Dall and passing on a couple of Moose that were marginal, the moose season closed on "our" side of the Nebesna River. We crossed the flood swollen Rive, a whole other story in its self, to continue hunting Moose. Spent first cuppla night in camp with three other Asbascan guides who were finishing up their "subsisdence" hunt after finishing with their last sheep clients. After 'warmning up" both to each other and literally, the lead Athbascan told me the story of his client which he described as a Phat Philly Lawyer. The Client was on a Dall Sheep hunt, out of shape. He could not finish his 2nd climb when a trophy ram was just a 100yds more. After climbing, telling the Client the Ram was still there, bedded down within 200yds and broadside the Client still could not make it and sent the guide to make the kill.....he shot once above it, and when it stood broadside, behind it, and sent it on his way. Told the client, scope must be off. The Asbascan took a subsistance sheep the next day and said "Damn Ram Still there. Save til next year for big tip."

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:

quote:

Sam, first I can't abide condesending people. Second I said if lawful and according to Infinito it is against the law, that said how many PH finish game be it a cat or say a wildebeast. Maybe outfitters should add to their info list "You must be able to hunt for yourself" this does not include the fact you must have a PH by law. etc etc.

Maybe the outfitter should ask the client "can you afford this hunt at my prices". Oh Boy!

Apologies if it came across as condescending, but I struggle to accept this kind of thing. Don't care if it's legal or illegal, I disagree with it.

Wait a minute. How is it condescending to "look down" at a guy who didn't shoot his own trophies?

My neighbor buys mounts for his house but makes no pretense about shooting them. He just likes the look. He is a hunter, and has some stuff he shot, but he doesn't BS anyone.

Sorry DOJ, but I do look down on a guy who doesn't shoot his own animals. Not to be confused with the PH putting in a backup shot; I could care less when my PH does - if I pull the trigger, the animal is dead. Anyone that wants to pile on is more than welcome.

Charl, advise such clients to contact a Taxidermist. Many of the big studio's have extra capes, horns and full skins for sale. The Taxidermist will appreciate the business and the client can fill their home full of mounts.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So if this client tried to rebook you would tell him NO???

YES, I will never host him in my camp again!

Remember, the client never stated his abilities or interest. He just booked the hunt. Talking about assumption being the mother of all....

Any case, it is illegal in S.A., for anyone else to shoot an animals that has a tag issued in a specific persons name.

I will take him Charl. Never shot a Leopard. Not interested in Lion is he?

Cheers

Andrew

In or out of the cage?

Christ and I get nasty if anyone takes a follow up shot without my say so unless it is a dangerous situation. I would rather spend 5 days tracking and or loose the trophy than have someone else take the shot unless I know I cant do it. I have only really lost a couple animals over the years. I have certainly screwed the pooch a few times and spent some time tracking.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
In or out of the cage?

Christ and I get nasty if anyone takes a follow up shot without my say so unless it is a dangerous situation. I would rather spend 5 days tracking and or loose the trophy than have someone else take the shot unless I know I cant do it. I have only really lost a couple animals over the years. I have certainly screwed the pooch a few times and spent some time tracking.

That is a pretty good definition of hunting in my book.

Oh brother, another "I is mo self-righteous than u is" post.

Good on you Will.

While on my first safari to Zim a number of years ago. I watch a Ph shoot a croc while the hunter sat under a shade tent on the bank,he was quite an older guy(hunter that is) and looked quite frail. When I ask my Ph what was going on he said he had also had a couple of clients like this. They had saved all their life to go on safari but were just not up to it any more and so he had to shoot there trophies for them. It maybe be a a little different and I am glad I've done it before i was like this but I'm not sure I would take that experience away from them...each to their own?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


Wait a minute. How is it condescending to "look down" at a guy who didn't shoot his own trophies?

My neighbor buys mounts for his house but makes no pretense about shooting them. He just likes the look. He is a hunter, and has some stuff he shot, but he doesn't BS anyone.

Sorry DOJ, but I do look down on a guy who doesn't shoot his own animals. Not to be confused with the PH putting in a backup shot; I could care less when my PH does - if I pull the trigger, the animal is dead. Anyone that wants to pile on is more than welcome.

None of this makes any sense. Where does the guide say that his client was claiming to be the 'great white hunter'?? So you look down on Charls client but not at your neighbour - contradiction what??

IMO - it is pretty poor taste that a guide would get on the Internet and put shit on a paying client. I presume he paid his bills and all. So he didnt want to shoot the animals, that is his prerogative - it is his damn holiday!!

I started to give this more thought and remembered back in the 80's I did a few years of "hunting" with a camera and did not shoot anything. I did a spring bear "hunt" in New Brunswick and only took pictures of bear. I had a rifle with me just in case. The outfitter got pissed because I wouldn't shoot a bear so he could add to his sucess rate. I got what I wanted he got paid so when leaving I just told him to "F*UCK OFF". It happened to be the 3rd time I had hunted from that camp and the last. You can believe my references for him were not good. People must remember in this case the customer makes his or her choices and the rest of us can pound sand.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Client had 4 chances in the first week to shoot Leopard. Never got close to doing it. I'm pulling my hair out of my head..... Then the interperter comes to me and ask if I will shoot the Leopard for him.

Maybe you should have called in the help of the interpreter earlier

You can bet (and win) that the dude whose PH shoots his trophies for him conveniently leaves that part out of his hunting stories.

The lying is what I have a hard time with. That and the entirely superficial nature of the entire "collection" enterprise.

As has been said, the so-called "hunter" might as well stay home and buy finished mounts.

Condescension does not enter into this, BTW. More like repugnance.

JMHO, of course, but MHO, nonetheless.

But God forbid that we should dare to be judgmental these days.

quote:

But God forbid that we should dare to be judgmental these days.

Yeah some people seem to be intolerant of our lack of tolerance.

To be honest I can't believe hunters are defending this sort of behaviour.

Of course there are exceptions. Someone who's old, a PH shooting the animal as back up etc. but these exceptions hardly merit mentioning.

DOJ- Maybe you should have told the guy before the trip that you were just there to take photo's of the bears, then you wouldn't have had to tell him to fuck off at the end of your trip. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


Wait a minute. How is it condescending to "look down" at a guy who didn't shoot his own trophies?

My neighbor buys mounts for his house but makes no pretense about shooting them. He just likes the look. He is a hunter, and has some stuff he shot, but he doesn't BS anyone.

Sorry DOJ, but I do look down on a guy who doesn't shoot his own animals. Not to be confused with the PH putting in a backup shot; I could care less when my PH does - if I pull the trigger, the animal is dead. Anyone that wants to pile on is more than welcome.

None of this makes any sense. Where does the guide say that his client was claiming to be the 'great white hunter'?? So you look down on Charls client but not at your neighbour - contradiction what??

IMO - it is pretty poor taste that a guide would get on the Internet and put shit on a paying client. I presume he paid his bills and all. So he didnt want to shoot the animals, that is his prerogative - it is his damn holiday!!

See MR's post above; pretty much sums up my feelings as well. Let's get real...can you imagine someone coming in to said hunter's house and "ooohing and ahhing" only to have the host grab the vistor's arm and say, "Wait. I didn't shoot them...my PH did."

Yea, right.

As for my neighbor, he TELLS everyone he bought them. I think it a bit strange, but if he were to tell me he paid big bucks only to have his PH shoot his game, I would think he had some serious ego problems. Why do that?

Sam, I did and by the way my father was hunting to "kill". And by the way I have a photo of the bear in my office along with my mounts, it means just as much to me. I don 't know why I let myself get into these discussion, because they always end the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:


The lying is what I have a hard time with. That and the entirely superficial nature of the entire "collection" enterprise.

As has been said, the so-called "hunter" might as well stay home and buy finished mounts.

Condescension does not enter into this, BTW. More like repugnance.

Where did this client lie about ANYTHING to ANYONE???

Charl,
You won't be shooting my trophies in October Of course if we are charged by a deranged duiker and you feel it is life threatening, fire away.

Gentlemen, I think we have just about all the opinions of this across the board. Now here is another one.

I have no problem with anyone going to an auction and buying mounts to decorate his home, as long as he makes it clear to anyone visiting that he did not shoot the animals and that they are only decoration. This is the same as buying valuable paintings! Nobody ask if you painted the paintings. The animals were shot by someone, and the paintings were painted by someone. What is the difference as long as the owner doesn’t claim to have shot them?

A client wanting only the animals for decoration paying for a safari to get them, and expecting some one else to shoot them is a bit much IMO, because you know that client has his pictures taken with the animals. That alone tells me he will not make it clear to anyone who sees the mounts that he did not shoot them.

I have two mounts in my trophy room that I did not shoot my self! One was the last Muledeer that my late father shot before he went completely blind to glaucoma, 4 yrs before he died, back in the 1970s, and the other is a set of whitetail antlers shot by my grandfather, that hung in our barn for years back when I was about 10 yrs old. He is also deceased. All the other mounts skulls and /or mounts were shot by me!

I’m like most here I don’t want others shooting my animals. I have gone hunting a few times with guys that when a deer or hog was jumped, everyone started shooting at them. I never joined in this, and just stood dumb-founded watching this “WAR LIKE” activity! Certainly not how I was raised. We were always taught that the guy who spotted the animal had the shot, and it was left up to him to take the animal, or loose him.

.................. ..............

Mac:

Excellent point. If the hunter has his picture taken with the animal I would be willing to bet he isn't volunteering to others that he didn't shoot the animal.

Matt:
If the hunter in question takes a picture of his PH posing with the animal and not of himself, then he is probably honest about what he tells others.

So Charl (after Sunday that name is now famous in the US), tell us, who posed with the animals?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:


The lying is what I have a hard time with. That and the entirely superficial nature of the entire "collection" enterprise.

As has been said, the so-called "hunter" might as well stay home and buy finished mounts.

Condescension does not enter into this, BTW. More like repugnance.

Where did this client lie about ANYTHING to ANYONE???

Matt, either you completely misunderstand me or you have a different opinion of human nature than I do, I'm not sure which.

FWIW, I will concede that it's possible that "hunters" like the one that is the subject of this thread volunteer to their admiring visitors that a PH shot the trophies on their walls.

Just like the "hunter" of a canned lion explains to his admiring visitors that the lion in his trophy room was a tame, captive-bred, hand-fed specimen, that had been drugged and released into a large pen just before the "hunter" shot it.

Possible, but not likely, IMHO.

Well as to the photos that can be cleared up here, say what.