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The problem is you don't understand Africa or the African psyche. To a rural African, the wild game is the enemy. If it's a predator, it might kill his family or livestock. If it's a herbivore, it might eat his crops or the graze/browse for his livestock. Therefore he kills the game at every opportunity and by any means possible. The only exception to this rule is sometimes if the wild animal has a value to that rural African such as by way of a job or food & even then, it's no guarantee. For example, the Masai will ALWAYS kill lions whenever they can & however they can. To the African politician, they want hard currency & if the game populations pays, it stays..... if not, they don't care. | |||
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Geeze, get a grip! When people advocate banning hunting, whatever their different motivations they may have, the one characteristic they share is that ALL are anti hunting, by definition, eh! The other common characteristic is that they have little regard for the fate of wildlife or for the habitat essential to wildlife. I am American, and in the US we have several notional/international advocacy organizations. Ducks Unlimited, SCI, DSC for a few, and thousands of local and regional organizations. The so called "main stream media" is not pro hunting, but not rabidly anti hunting for the most part. And even those "main stream media" outlets which have the leftist urge to ban hunting temper it in the interest of business. Flick on the tube any morning or evening and there will be hours and hours of hunting shows available. On a weekend the selections are endless. This, from your post quoted above, could not be further from the truth: "It is my understanding that before a ban on hunting is put in place anywhere there is a period of research, evidence presenting and campaigning from both sides." Every ban on hunting is a the implementation of policy based on a combination of hypocrisy, greed, emotion, ignorance, envy and/or deceit. While all anti hunters are hypocrites, some for their greedy motivation some for ignoring the reality of what occurs absent hunting if for nothing else, the envy or emotionally driven anti hunters are a special breed of hypocrite. If you wear a leather belt or shoes, carry a leather wallet, purse, briefcase or luggage, drive a car with leather seats, eat any meat, use any medication (tested on animals,) wear any cosmetics (also tested on animals) you are responsible for the killing of an animal. The only difference between the hypocrite and the hunter in so far as the killing of animals is that a hunter is willing to do the killing him or herself. How many of the anti hunting crowd do you know who abstain from the long list of animal products, byproducts or medicines or cosmetics containing animal byproducts or tested on animals? I bet not one. BTW, regarding elephants in Africa. Where there are elephants it is likely that there are too many elephants. Where there are none it is because they were driven out or locally extirpated to facilitate human encroachment on wildlife habitat, in the interests of farming or other non-hunting pursuits. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Shakari, I actually have a reasonable knowledge base perhaps not shown in this thread because truth be known i came into this one originally with one point to make. That being that videos such as the one in this thread are damaging to hunting and do you (generic) no favours. I have been lucky that many here have been willing to converse with me and exchange opinions, facts etc. I have learnt a lot from the people of AR since my first post in which i stated i was completely anti-hunting and at the time meant it. I want what is best for conservation and if that is the continuation of hunting of all species then i will back that. If it is not then i won't. That is the simple truth. I completely understand you have reservations about me and i accept that fully. I do understand that to most rural africans the wild game is the enemy. I am aware of the poisoning of waterholes, poaching et al that goes with this. I am also aware that some hunters work with the African people to alleviate the problems that are there. I also know some anti hunting groups are working with the masai to try and stop them from seeing lion as the enemy for example. I will not lie I have some issues with hunting and some doubts about how successful it will be in the long run for conserving species but I also hold the same reservations about stopping hunting altogether. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do but I just feel that if you as a community are right in that the only way forward in conservation is the continuation of hunting that you (generic) should be doing more to get the right message out there to the public and leave the wrong messages where they belong. | |||
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I can't argue with that and have often said that if we don't police ourselves, someone else will do it for us and they won't be pro hunting. | |||
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You present this all as fact when in truth it is your opinion. I have never seen a hunting program, nor seen one advertised, nor have any channels that show them. The media in the UK is very anti hunting unless you read horse and hound or country life where they support some hunting. I personally have no objection to you hunting as long as the species you are hunting is sustainable. I wear leather, i eat meat, i just choose not to hunt it myself. So tell me am i a hypocrite for choosing not to hunt my own food but respecting your right to do so if you wish? Am i a hypocrite for saying i will support whatever is best for conservation be that the continuation of hunting or the banning of hunting? No i'm not, i'm just someone, a rare breed who really does want what is best for the animal species of the world and will do whatever i can to support what is best. Man's ego and master of the universe complex will be his downfall one day and i thank God i won't be here to see it. | |||
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All hunting isn't pretty. Never was, never will be. However, it beats the hell out of dying a natural death or a death accelerated my a snare. I know for an absolute fact that hunting is saving a lot of game in the area in question in the video. I hunted there last year. There are massive efforts to stop poaching. The number of poached elephant carcasses has dropped dramatically since these efforts started. One of my party when we hunted in that area last year had to put a juvenile elephant down because of the injuries caused by a poacher. It was neither fun nor exciting. It was a difficult thing to do. The elephants was going to die a horrible death otherwise. Perhaps he will see fit to post the video of the horrible injuries the poacher caused. It disturbed every single one of us. This type of thing will be rampant should hunting stop. | |||
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Shakari, I have spent very little time in Africa and i certainly do not claim i have a vast knowledge. That is partially why i come here, to learn and understand. I read most threads on these boards and very rarely make comment, but i learn from them. I am slowly beginning to learn the complexities of Africa. I've been here around 2-3 years now and i learn every day. I understand the reservations and sometimes hostility i face here but i think that there are some things that the members could take from my postings. I give them a view of what antis and myself think of hunting et al and i do it as respectfully as possible. | |||
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Again taking what you say at face value you know these things but the average member of the public does not. The average member of the public only sees or hears about the video in this thread not the other side of the coin. If you want the public to see what you see you have to make them see it :-) | |||
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And that, folks, is why the subject video, and others like it, must be posted, whether they show a one-shot-kill or a tragedy of errors. Fear of a negative reaction is indicative of cowardice, and nothing more. The truth is the truth, and there's no justification for hiding from it. | |||
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Jolouburn, Unfortunately, you responded to a draft of my post, and unfortunately I was slow editing. Please read the final version of my post, which I have copied here for your convenience (I will se if of with XXXX's to halp avoid confusion  XXXXX Geeze, get a grip! When people advocate banning hunting, whatever their different motivations they may have, the one characteristic they share is that ALL are anti hunting, by definition, eh! The other common characteristic is that they have little regard for the fate of wildlife or for the habitat essential to wildlife. I am American, and in the US we have several notional/international advocacy organizations. Ducks Unlimited, SCI, DSC for a few, and thousands of local and regional organizations. The so called "main stream media" is not pro hunting, but not rabidly anti hunting for the most part. And even those "main stream media" outlets which have the leftist urge to ban hunting temper it in the interest of business. Flick on the tube any morning or evening and there will be hours and hours of hunting shows available. On a weekend the selections are endless. This, from your post quoted above, could not be further from the truth: "It is my understanding that before a ban on hunting is put in place anywhere there is a period of research, evidence presenting and campaigning from both sides." Every ban on hunting is a the implementation of policy based on a combination of hypocrisy, greed, emotion, ignorance, envy and/or deceit. While all anti hunters are hypocrites, some for their greedy motivation some for ignoring the reality of what occurs absent hunting if for nothing else, the envy or emotionally driven anti hunters are a special breed of hypocrite. If you wear a leather belt or shoes, carry a leather wallet, purse, briefcase or luggage, drive a car with leather seats, eat any meat, use any medication (tested on animals,) wear any cosmetics (also tested on animals) you are responsible for the killing of an animal. The only difference between the hypocrite and the hunter in so far as the killing of animals is that a hunter is willing to do the killing him or herself. How many of the anti hunting crowd do you know who abstain from the long list of animal products, byproducts or medicines or cosmetics containing animal byproducts or tested on animals? I bet not one. BTW, regarding elephants in Africa. Where there are elephants it is likely that there are too many elephants. Where there are none it is because they were driven out or locally extirpated to facilitate human encroachment on wildlife habitat, in the interests of farming or other non-hunting pursuits.XXXXX The "you" was intended by read as generic in the manner you noted in your post to Shakiri. Moreover, I would not call you an anti hunter. You may lean toward it for want of experience or education on the topic, but, by your own words, the more informed you have become the further you move away from it. You cannot be anti hunting if you have no objection to me or others hunting if it does not jeopardize a species; you cannot be anti hunting if you would support hunting when it is shown that only hunting leads to sustainable habitat and wildlife populations (and, in my opinion. Both points above are why I ask how many of the anti hunting people you know abstain from the indirect killing of animals by abstaining from products either derived from animals or tested on animals, rather than ask you directly. As for the allegation that what I am writing is opinion, if you wish to point out which specific points you believe are opinion rather than fact, I will explain why they are facts and not opinion. But please read the final version of my post first. Also, following up on Larry Shore's post, my PH, me the trackers and game scout, all on my time and so my dime, have spent hours collecting poachers' snares over time. One day in particular we spent a half a day picking up, iirc, 64 snares of a commercial scale poaching operation. We saw the poachers and their dogs, used to drive game to the snares. The game scout told us to shoot the poachers, and that isn't something I would ever do, but it gives the idea of the persistence of commercial poaching when the government, any government, needs to resort to that to control poaching. On our way back to camp we stopped at the ranger station to inform the area warden of the problem, and he asked us to pick up an anti poaching squad the next day and to drop them off for a patrol since their vehicles were on the blink and their fuel limited. We did, without hesitation, on my time, and my PH's fuel. Of course the ranger's presence was funded by hunters, me and others, who paid to hunt that area, and who are footing the bill to control poaching. FWIW, we found sable, baby elephant, kudu, impala, warthog, cape buffalo and other animals in the snares. All rotten to the point of being useless as food. Many gaps between the snares was piled with brush so that almost every passage way required passing a snare. The snare line went on for almost a mile. Don't forget this incontrovertible fact, hunters need creatures to hunt, and, except for a very few fools, support the maintenance of habitat and the conservation of wildlife so that they will always have creatures to hunt, and their sons and daughter, and their sons and daughters, and their sons and daughters.... Man has dominion over all other creatures. That is a fact regardless of whether you or I like it or not. The preservation of habitat and of wildlife is repulsive to some who have other uses for the land and the animals (habitat - mining, oil and gas production, timber, farming, development, housing, damming for electrical production or other goals, animals - mostly selling for meat or parts, like the bush meat trade medicinal trade,, or for ivory, skins, etc,) of theoretical interest to many, but it is of necessity to hunters who wish to hunt, and wish their sons and daughters to hunt. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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jolouburn What you and 99% of non hunters fail to understand is that hunting requires large populations of wild animal in wild areas. Therefore this is what properly managed hunting practices support. Sport hunting is managed to foster continually healthy populations of wild game. Photo safaris do almost nothing to support wildlife and wild areas. Most all photo safaris are conducted in national parks that are isolated from truly wild areas. And to compound things, photo safaris require relatively little game. For this reason the game that remains in Kenya is located in parks. Before the hunting ban wildlife was found throughout the country. Kenya is just a sad shell of what it once was. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Jellybrain, You have ABSOLUELY ZERO knowledge of what life in Africa is. You are no different from your friends who claim to be conservationists. Mostly to prey on the clueless Joe Public who like to donate some money to feel good about it. ONE hunt spends more money for conservation that you lot combined all your lives! | |||
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Often the case with people who have lost touch with country life, its wildlife and people. | |||
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Saeed: You are no doubt correct. Much of the public is clueless about wildlife in general and African wildlife in particular. I have some friends that used to think that elephants were all like Disney's Dumbo. I have since educated them. They were totally shocked. Having said that, I question the wisdom of attacking people like Joloburn. Will she ever listen to valid comments from those who attack her? I am willing to bet not. How can we go about educating these people and getting them into the right corner, our corner? | |||
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This old chestnut again eh Saeed!! My friends, well let's start by asking you if you actually know who i am friends with? NO Well i'll help you out a little bit here. I have friends who despise hunting and berate hunters at every opportunity but in actual fact do absolutely nothing to help conservation. I have friends who donate money to a lot of the leading animal charities, this makes them feel better and feel they are helping. I don't shatter their illusions. Then i have my friends whom i met here who as you will know since they post here definately contribute to conservation and some in more ways than one. I also have a friend who runs a conservation park and donates a lot of time to conservation outside of the park to raise the publics awareness of poaching, canned hunting, illegal hunting etc etc. So to sum up, i have friends who do nothing, friends who try too help and friends who definately do help with conservation. When i was last in South Africa we stopped at the roadside (can't remember exactly where) and i purchased some ornamental animals. I can't remember how much they cost but i remember thinking that the money i had spent would go to his family, there was no way this chap with his blanket on the floor and small array of goods was declaring his earnings. But here's the rub Saeed, not long back it was reported in the local papers here in the UK about a beggar who had sat in the same spot for about ten years with his dog begging. It all came out that just down the road he had parked a brand new jaguar and drove it home every day to his lovely home in a fairly affluent area. So to be fair do i know for a fact that the chap sat at the roadside in SA was as poor as he looked or purported to be? Do i know he didn't have a nice car, a nice house? NO So was my money really helping? Either way a definite yes. The first way i was helping a poor man and his family, the second way i was helping fund this mans already comfortable lifestyle. You may wonder why i told you this little tale but here it is, my point! None of us actually knows how much of our cash goes to the cause we mean it to. You can claim that one hunt raises more cash for conservation than anything me or my friends can raise will but in truth as many have said here previous to this post the governments are greedy and corrupt and as happens with charitable donations to conservation i would suggest that very little of your money makes it to its actual cause. I would hazard a guess (an educated one) that most of your money is actually making fat cats fatter! The problem with most people is that they think throwing money at a problem makes it go away. This is especially true of those born with silver spoons in their mouth Saeed. The truth though is that it isn't those who throw money at things that are the true heros, it is those who actually do something!
Just a couple of examples but these are the people who are truly making a difference. These are the people who are truly contributing to conservation. Unfortunately i live in the UK and i cannot do the fabulous things these people do but i can do other things and i do. Tell me Saeed other than the actual hunt you go on and all that involves ie, meat being donated to locals, work for locals etc, what do you do for conservation? Now just as an aside Saeed we can dance this dance forever as far as im concerned. You can keep waiting for your one shining moment where i lose my temper and go postal on you but it will never arrive! I will answer your repetitive questions and chuckle at your repeated insults (time to come up with new ones perhaps) because honestly you have no impact on me or the way i feel about hunting. In my opinion you keep your 'free speech' here so that you yourself can berate people and call names. You think that your attempts to put me down makes people here admire you but it doesn't. In your need to call names and berate people you have sat back and watched a member here behave despicably towards a fellow members wife who is ill!! I personally find that deplorable. You have tried for nearly three years to get me to react to you in a way that makes me drop to your level and the level of ZK but it hasn't happened and it never will. Give it up Saeed. | |||
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If Saeed does nothing else, which I would find highly doubtful, the substantial sum of money he spends to hunt the areas he hunts is of considerable assistance to conservation since it is his and other hunters' money that pays for the habitat to remain wilderness and for the anti poaching efforts of both the government and the area concession holder. In some African countries, private anti poaching patrols and other efforts far surpass government efforts. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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She may listen, but she HEARS what she wants to hear, or at least claims to. According to this:
...she has heard this multiple times here on AR. Really? I'd love to see even one citation of this statement. Jolouburn, you mention the roadside artisan from whom you purchased souvenirs. Essentially, you gave that man a job that paid his bills and encouraged him to do more of the same, yet you question the true amount of money going into conservation efforts from hunting revenues. When I was in Africa, there were people maintaining the camp, cooking food, doing laundry, skinning, tracking and a hundred other jobs, all of which existed only because I and others like me were hunting. These people aren't idiots...they are very well aware that their livelihoods depend upon the animals being there and thus enticing hunters to come spend their money. The fact that wildlife and game have accrued an actual value from hunting seems to be one that even the most rabid antis can't and don't argue...it's self-evident. What you may not have seen while leaning out of the photosafari car is the absolute casual cruelty and contempt with which the average African tends to view wildlife, or for that matter even their own dogs and cattle. Is it because, by our standards, their lives are difficult and they can't spare sentiment for animals? I don't know, but watching the treatment of a village dog in Africa is enough to make you realize that this is a mindset totally alien to most North American or European visitors. In our cultures, we preserve animals for their own sake. In the African culture, if an animal species has any chance of surviving, it had damn well better have "something of value" to show the Africans. Otherwise, it's just breathing their air, eating their food and taking up space that they could be filling up with children. I give more humane treatment to mosquitoes than they do to elephants. Those people on the camp staff are of the same mind...they are just humouring me and my fellow hunters by letting the animals live. If we stop going, the tolerance ends and the critters are killed. It's intuitively obvious...not only that hunting lends worth to the animals, and thus helps them...but rather, that it is THE ONLY THING that can ensure their continued existence. I believe that you probably do have the animals' interests at heart...but you really, really want all of the above to simply not be true while doing so. You're like the character on the old X-Files TV show, who had the picture of the UFO on his office wall with the caption "I want to believe..." except, in your case, you don't want to believe. | |||
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As an additional note many have told me you can't fully understand unless you spend time on the ground and i completely agree with that. My experiences so far of Africa have been very limited but i am lucky enough to have made some friends here who when i return to Africa, not this year unfortunately are going to help me to spend time on a hunting concession and other places so i can truly have an experience of what is really going on. | |||
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Unfortunately Saeed has never really made a valid comment to me. Or if he has they have been lost in his vitriol. I am lucky, others converse with me and i have learnt a lot from them. I don't need Saeed to be polite or converse with me. | |||
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As i have said i am highly dubious about how much of this money makes it into conservation. I am highly dubious about how much of the money i have donated over the years has made it into conservation too. I would assume that you are correct and Saeed has done other things for conservation but i would highly doubt they are not money related and actual action. Whenever Saeed has barbed at me he is all about the money, what does that tell you? | |||
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I'm not trying to take away your right to hunt, hell i'll fight for your right to hunt. What's the saying 'i might not like what you say but ill fight for your right to say it'. Its something like that and if you insert the word do for say, you have it! However i would be an idiot to go from being against all hunting to supporting all hunting without being sure of my facts. I support your right to hunt sustainable animals, i'm just not convinced that hunting will be the saviour of the lion or the rhino etc etc. Truth be known i have my doubts that anything will save them from extinction and that saddens me greatly. Call me emotional on that if you wish because i am. | |||
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It tells me that he is a realist. While some small percentage of humanity can truthfully claim that they toil for abstract goals (like conservation or the betterment of the human condition), most of humanity is forced to look out for number one, first and foremost. In today's world, that spells MONEY. The sooner in life one learns that, the better one's chances of actually changing or improving anything. Some people never learn it. | |||
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My Father is famous for his saying: "Never forget the 'Golden Rule'...he who has the gold...makes the rules." Was taught that form a young age and it rarely fails me. Sometimes it is sad I will admit...but still almost always true. Nearly anytime you want to get to the bottom of something...you usually find the shortest path by following the money. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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But you still all miss or evade my point!! How much money truly makes it into conservation and not the fat cats pockets????? A realist would recognise that not all money makes it to its target! | |||
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Click on the 2012 link to the hunt with Andrew Baldry. The only money that made it to the Government was for quota fees. The rest went to the community of Kaindu and the operation of Royal Kafue thus giving value to the animals beyond poached meat or poisoned Lions. The anti poaching patrols and education of the locals is paid for by Royal Kafue. The sole income of Royal Kafue is hunting dollars. I didn't read this on the internet. I was there supplying the majority of those hunting dollars that allowed the start-up. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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When you get right down to it and look at the true nature of the beast and what drives man………. well, you are going to be disappointed because the truth is a far darker picture than the idealistic one. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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A large part of it but how much will vary depending on country, area & leaseholder/owner etc but certainly FAR more than the anti hunting organisations contribute..... I can't remember which organisation it was but FWIW, I read recently that one of the American animal rights charities has just been reported to the authorities because they were contributing just 1% of their income to it's intended purpose...... Hopefully, one of our American members might know more about it. The obvious example of how hunting benefits conservation that springs to mind is how the KZN Game Dept some years ago allowed a few old white rhino bulls that were past breeding age to be hunted and used the money gained to finance the original breeding program that saved the species...... sadly, 20 odd years later, the same species is now suffering from heavy poaching pressure but that doesn't alter the fact that hunting saved the species for a considerable time. In closing, I doubt there's many organisations at all where 100% of the money donated makes it to the intended target and the larger charities are usually the worst culprits. | |||
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Sadly, I think if we all did some digging we would be very disappointed in where the majority of the money goes with many of the pro-hunting/conservation groups that we hold dear. Top heavy management, large executives and administration eat up a huge chunk; never mind what happens to the donated money when it arrives on site and works its way through the local administration and allocation. The biggest difference between the large animal rights groups/anti-hunting groups and the big pro-hunting/conservation groups is that some of the money from the pro-hunting groups actually goes towards real conservation projects that do improve things for both the wildlife and the local communities. The 'enemy' spends all of its money fighting to stop hunting/trapping but does nothing towards REAL conservation projects or habitat improvement. For the most part the anti's focus on taking away some very important wildlife management tools, but provide no reasonable alternatives or tangible ways of achieving the conservation goals or providing real benefits to the local communities. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Skyline I certainly agree that many charities (of all kinds) don't give as much of their income to the intended purpose and Googled that very thing...... and found a large number that give less than 10% of their income to those intended purpose...... some gave less than 5%........ which I guess proves that the charity business is thriving...... or should that be thieving!  Come to that, I'd bet the same thing could be said of the vast majority of foreign aid as well.  | |||
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I don't have any idea what your travel accommodations were like, or anything else about your trip. I don't even know if you took a single picture, or used a box Brownie with antique film loaded into it. I used the term "photosafari" as an indication of the only thing about your trip of which I was certain...that you were basically doing nothing but looking. AND...I suspect that you were looking at, and for, exactly the things which you wanted and expected to see. Some people watch TV...maybe it's football, maybe it's the Animal Channel. Some people go a step further...they actually go to see a football game in person at a stadium, or go on a photosafari to see the animals in person in their natural habitat. People who like football probably watch football; but the people who really, really love football...PLAY FOOTBALL. The people who really, really love nature and animals don't just look at them and take photos...THEY HUNT. You may say that football fans can be very ardent about the sport, without actually participating in the event...and I would disagree. If they truly are devotees, then they play. It probably won't be at professional levels of competition. Certainly, age or infirmity will curtail and eventually prevent physical participation, but while it is possible, if you truly love it...you play the game. Hunting is exactly the same. It is participation in the natural process. Yes, what little TV I watch often consists of nature programs, if I can find one where the animals don't have cute names and which actually teaches me something. More often, I will spend time birding or photographing wildlife. But the highlight of my passion for wildlife is hunting...participating in the process...playing the game. Having sampled all three levels, i.e. remote observation (TV), personal observation, and personal participation, I KNOW...not merely think, but KNOW...that each level is orders of magnitude more intense and more REAL than the previous. My limited experience with the hunting of dangerous game indicates to me that it is actually a fourth level, and again, that much more profoundly REAL than the others. So, if you are serious about understanding hunting...then try it. Hunt. If you are serious about understanding African hunting, then hunt in Africa. I try not to form preconceived ideas about things without firsthand experience. Try the same yourself. Don't say "I've seen..." or "I've heard..." or "I think... Do it. Then perhaps we can discuss it on an equal footing. Until then, sorry, but you just don't get it...CAN'T get it. But if you prefer not to...and, gee, somehow I think you won't...then you really should try to accept AS FACT the notion that those who do hunt are, by and large, more committed to the preservation of nature than you are. We have seen firsthand areas of natural habitat which are maintained in that natural state ONLY because we...HUNTERS...pay for it. Of course, now comes the side-track: you ask how many hunters would contribute to conservation if hunting were banned. You claim we don't do something...then, if pressed, you imply that even if we do something, we do it for the wrong reason. You ask Saeed what he contributes to conservation...ignoring the many jobs his money supports when he hunts, which in turn support the habitat/wildlife...and when he shows you the respect he feels you deserve, you start to get cranky. I wonder: if you were drowning in my drinking-water well, and I reached in to pull you out but commented that I was only doing it to preserve the quality of the drinking water, would you let go of my hand and say "Nope, sorry...wrong reason!"? Make no mistake, we do take you seriously. Your brand of emotional faux-logical anti-hunting is, in my view, the most dangerous, because I think that YOU think you're actually working in the best interest of nature, but you're not. You SAY you are listening, but you're not, or at least you're doing it selectively and editing what you hear with a free hand. Sorry, crazy long post. Done now. | |||
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I have not read all the thread yet and i hope you will forgive me but i didn't read the hunting reports just the info relating to royal kafue. This looks an absolutely amazing place and here i can totally see there is dollars going into its conservation. May i ask two years on how things are there? | |||
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Most definitely there is always one charity or another in the news for this very thing. | |||
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I'm sure those charities would beg to differ but i personally think that there is good and bad on both sides. | |||
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The game density is even greater now than in 2012. The anti poaching patrols continue but financially Royal Kafue is having a hard time because of the Zambian Government present stand on having no Cat hunting since 2013. Hunting of Buffalo and plains game continues but the revenue stream form such hunts do not bring near the amount that cat hunts provide. If you would like to start a fund raising effort among your conservationist friends I'm sure 100% of those dollars would actually go to conservation. You can contact... ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - fairgame@iconnect.zm Tel. (00260) 966 745747 An article about the success of the venture.  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Frostbit, I cannot speak for any of my friends but i will certainly tell them about Royal Kafue. It sounds a fabulous place and maybe one day i'll get to visit. I probably wouldn't hunt but i would certainly pay to have the experience of watching conservation and hunting work. I will do a little reading and research on Royal Kafue and then i'll contact them if i feel i can do anything. We do several fundraisers for various causes here at our pub and they are usually quite successful so hopefully i could send some money there way :-) | |||
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{quote}Please show me where i have said i am anti hunting. It is you who is not listening and you prove that by calling me an anti hunter.{/quote} Okay, how about...
Obviously, you entered the fray as "against all hunting" and realized that you might make more progress by mollifying your audience a bit, so now you proclaim a much more moderate stance. Yes, yes...IN MY OPINION. In the end, that is all anyone has to go on...their opinions and their interpretation of what they see and hear. IN MY OPINION, you were indeed totally against hunting. Eventually, IN MY OPINION, it appeared as though you modified your views somewhat, while remaining largely against the practice of hunting. Now, IN MY OPINION, it appears more and more as though you are trying to use honey rather vinegar, in order to catch more flies...but you are still out to catch'em all. Yes, IN MY OPINION, you are absolutely an anti-hunter...just as those who ended hunting in Kenya were anti-hunters, despite your bizarre assertion that they were not. As such, your observations...i.e. the observations of an anti-hunter...are important for us to hear...but it's at least as important for us to remember whence they come. | |||
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Speaking of charitable donations, well, the data on US charitable organizations is public, required by regulation. It would be an easy task to look at the % of funds which went to the cause of the organization, whether pro or anti hunting. Speaking of hunting, a huge proportion goes to maintaining the habitat, which is the prerequisite to maintain wildlife. The funds paid by hunters pay the salaries of PH's, trackers, game scouts, the anti poaching partols and the organization which leases the concession from the tribe or government, as the case may be. The concession fees pay the salaries, in whole or in part, of the tribal authorities or the government game department. Take away the incentive to maintain the habitat, ie. the salaries, and you take away the habitat. Take away the habitat and you take away the wildlife. On the question of whether hunters would contribute to the maintenance of habitat, and so wildlife, if hunting were banned, the answer is irrelevant. They are paying for conservation of habitat and wildlife now where hunting is allowed, and where it is not habitat and wildlife suffers, so why advocate a ban on hunting? My personal answer to the question "Would I contribute to the conservation of habitat and so wildlife if hunting were banned in a locale where I currently hunt?": NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT I CONTRIBUTE NOW!!! JPK JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Absolute unbelievable!!?? There you go Jellybrain! Do you think ANY killing is pretty? Are you going to suggest that humans stop killing other creatures to feed themselves? What is going to be next? All carnivores should stop eating meat too? Bloody hell! The mind boggles at your utter idiocy! | |||
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Whoever made the ultimate decision in Kenya it wasn't the anti hunting campaigners. That woould be giving them far too much power. I'm not saying they didn't campaign for hunting to be stopped, just that the ultimate decision was not theirs to make. Read some of the posts in this thread alone that say that the decision was made through greed etc. At the end of the day it probably had nothing to do with being either pro or anti hunting just which decision would make the fat cats more money. | |||
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