quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

I am curious about one thing. After the first couple of shots on the elephant, the shooter swaps his double for a lowly bolt gun. I'd love to hear the double-gun crowd weigh in on this.

Why make more of it than there is? Unless I heard wrong, he simply used all the ammo he had for the double and the animal wasn't down yet. Therefore Blake handed him his rifle. Nothing more than that!

Sorry if I got your back up there, Todd. I admit that you were one of the principal fish for whom I baited that hook, but it was all in good fun. I certainly wasn't trying to start any serious discord.

I agree with Jason regarding the hunter kidding around a little too early, before the animal was properly finished, but I assume that can be attributed to adrenaline and nervousness. It doesn't look wonderful, especially to those who are looking for places to point accusatory fingers. The audio on mine was quite bad, and I truly didn't hear him say that he was out of ammo for the double...if he did and was, that's the biggest problem I can see here. I've never hunted elephant, but I can't believe anyone would do so with only four or six cartridges at hand. Am I the only one thinking this way?

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

I am curious about one thing. After the first couple of shots on the elephant, the shooter swaps his double for a lowly bolt gun. I'd love to hear the double-gun crowd weigh in on this.

Why make more of it than there is? Unless I heard wrong, he simply used all the ammo he had for the double and the animal wasn't down yet. Therefore Blake handed him his rifle. Nothing more than that!

Sorry if I got your back up there, Todd. I admit that you were one of the principal fish for whom I baited that hook, but it was all in good fun. I certainly wasn't trying to start any serious discord.

I agree with Jason regarding the hunter kidding around a little too early, before the animal was properly finished, but I assume that can be attributed to adrenaline and nervousness. It doesn't look wonderful, especially to those who are looking for places to point accusatory fingers. The audio on mine was quite bad, and I truly didn't hear him say that he was out of ammo for the double...if he did and was, that's the biggest problem I can see here. I've never hunted elephant, but I can't believe anyone would do so with only four or six cartridges at hand. Am I the only one thinking this way?

Sorry JWM, I didn't mean to come off jumping on you. Check your PMs.

Things I have learned from this post:

1. How to properly use the term Bullshit
2. I am adding a few of the above posters to my "Oh, he's a bullshitter.
3. I love the video
4. I would never fault this man or his choice in rifles and pretend I know more than Buzz and the hunter knew about this situation.
5. I have shot 2 ele, both with frontal one-shot brainers and this situation could happen to me on my next hunt.
6. I don't believe it was posted here for "educational" purposes.
7. Mike Jines knows whereof he speaks and is not a bullshitter.
8. Saeed put it very succinctly.

Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Things I have learned from this post:

1. How to properly use the term Bullshit
2. I am adding a few of the above posters to my "Oh, he's a bullshitter.
3. I love the video
4. I would never fault this man or his choice in rifles and pretend I know more than Buzz and the hunter knew about this situation.
5. I have shot 2 ele, both with frontal one-shot brainers and this situation could happen to me on my next hunt.
6. I don't believe it was posted here for "educational" purposes.
7. Mike Jines knows whereof he speaks and is not a bullshitter.
8. Saeed put it very succinctly.

Dutch

All true
But it is fun to get Mike riled up, and that's "no shit"

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Bullshit or bull shit…….. even those of us with a poor understanding of grammar and sentence structure probably get the meaning.

Damn, I don't know what I said in the past to end up on Jdollar's ignore list, but I hope it was good.

you are not, my friend. i was loosely referring to a poster from Montreal, who shall remain nameless

Sorry, could not resist. It's proving to be a long winter.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Saeed-

Yes, about as funny as someone becoming an expert on safari after going on 3 or 4! Or in the case of Trax, none.

Mike,

I have actually found out that the more time I spend hunting, with people who have been hunting all their lives, the more we learn, and the more we realize how wrong we can be sometimes.

It gives me a chuckle when I see some of our new experts stating, in no uncertain terms, how wrong everyone else, and only them who are right.

We had a perfect example of this in one member in the past, called Carmelo.

quote:

to set the record straight Ron has hunted with me several times- he is an exceptional shot and has killed several elephant with me with one shot kills

JBrown:

""The first shot was hurried, and a frontal shot is probably not the best for a hunter's first elephant.""

A frontal for a hunter's first elephant may indeed not be recommended though it would depend from the scenario at the time on the ground.

That this particular bull did not go down (and stay down) could well be the result of a hurried and imprecise first shot and hence the importance of getting the angle right the first time.

Having said that, shooting an elephant is easier said than done and a mistake made by a lot of people whose belief it is that shooting one is like shooting at the barn door.

This one ended up on the ground eventually but rest assured there are a number of hunters who have lost their elephant and paid the price for a handful of elephant turd to show for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Saeed-

Yes, about as funny as someone becoming an expert on safari after going on 3 or 4! Or in the case of Trax, none.

Mike,

I have actually found out that the more time I spend hunting, with people who have been hunting all their lives, the more we learn, and the more we realize how wrong we can be sometimes.

It gives me a chuckle when I see some of our new experts stating, in no uncertain terms, how wrong everyone else, and only them who are right.

We had a perfect example of this in one member in the past, called Carmelo.

Saeed -

Too right!

And that is exactly what makes AR such a treasure. As you know, I had quite a bit of safari experience before I found AR, but it has been an incomparable resource to me on topics for which I had little knowledge - Double Rifles in particular come to mind - and I have found many others here who are experienced african hands as well, and have become friends.

We may not always agree with each other, but we all share a common experience as longtime african hunters that bonds us together. This seems especially true whenever a "pretender" shows up. It really doesn't take long to find them out. Sorta like those who want to exclaim their military experience for all the world to hear. A few simple questions and they will be found out swiftly by those who have been there and done that.

Carmelo? He apparently disappeared sometime prior to my arrival, but from the manner in which his name is periodically mentioned, I guess I didn't miss anything. Heh-Heh.

Thanks, as always, for this forum, and peace be with you.

Mike

What are you doing messing around on a TRAX thread?

You Know he's nothing but a troll

Here is the really sad truth.

There is nothing in that video to be ashamed of. That is how hunting happens sometimes and any "real hunter" has experienced it some shape or fashion themselves.

20 years ago...or maybe even 10...we would not have thought much about it...other than to learn. The video is educational.

The problem is that today...we find the need to sterilize our passion. To try to make it "OK" for those who don't hunt.

Video's and the Internet spread the few instances we would all like to learn from and for get around the world like an epidemic...hence the coined phrase "going viral."

Hunting will never/can never be always perfect. We can not sterilize it to be always perfect either. Instead of running from these videos...let's stand together and educate those that see them. Be supportive of our fellow hunters. I see nothing wrong with how this hunter and PH conducted themselves.

If we hide it or act ashamed of it ourselves...what message does that send to the world.

Is the video a bit hard to watch, for me it is, but then so is a wild dog or wolf kill. What about the lion that take down elephant, I bet that can go on for an hour plus. No way I would want to watch that.

Death is not pretty, and some animals (like elephant) invoke more emotion than others. Those of us who are compassionate hunters (I would assume and hope the majority) strive to kill the animal as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, it does not always work out that way. That’s reality. Does it need to be on YouTube, no, not in my opinion, not in today’s world of social media...which unfortunately is reality to millions of people.

The only truly ludicrous statement made on this thread is the suggestion that Buzz abandon his hat. That would be like superman without his cape. Or Marilyn without her mole. Or Mr. Rogers without his sweater. Just ridiculous.

Charlie64

Hi Charlie

I would say side brain shots would be 50% perfect ie dead ele with 1 round and 90% go down giving everyone enough time to regroup and deal with it when and if it gets up.

Frontal is less- I would say 30% perfect ie dead with one round and 60 % go down with the shot and then the same as above. In reality the reason I like brain shots is that I do not like backing a client up and with a brain shot I know immediately if I am needed to back up or not.

Having done many many elephant with clients I can honestly say that I have only ever lost 1 elephant and I put that down to doing brain shots over heart lung where the eles reaction is the same whether a perfect shot through the heart or a gut shot! My preference and works for me!

Buff obviously heart lung shots I would say we have 75% one shot kills but that is a different ball game all together!

Regards the question on why Ron took the bolt action- simply he ran out of ammo- something that many have done and many will do in the future! All the best Buzz

quote:

but the worst part was the hunter mugging for the camera after his 7th shot while the elephant was still alive and wounded.

Have to agree here. Not much respect shown for the elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
The only truly ludicrous statement made on this thread is the suggestion that Buzz abandon his hat. That would be like superman without his cape. Or Marilyn without her mole. Or Mr. Rogers without his sweater. Just ridiculous.

Hear! Hear!

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Saeed-

Yes, about as funny as someone becoming an expert on safari after going on 3 or 4! Or in the case of Trax, none.

Mike,

I have actually found out that the more time I spend hunting, with people who have been hunting all their lives, the more we learn, and the more we realize how wrong we can be sometimes.

It gives me a chuckle when I see some of our new experts stating, in no uncertain terms, how wrong everyone else, and only them who are right.

We had a perfect example of this in one member in the past, called Carmelo.

Saeed -

Too right!

And that is exactly what makes AR such a treasure. As you know, I had quite a bit of safari experience before I found AR, but it has been an incomparable resource to me on topics for which I had little knowledge - Double Rifles in particular come to mind - and I have found many others here who are experienced african hands as well, and have become friends.

We may not always agree with each other, but we all share a common experience as longtime african hunters that bonds us together. This seems especially true whenever a "pretender" shows up. It really doesn't take long to find them out. Sorta like those who want to exclaim their military experience for all the world to hear. A few simple questions and they will be found out swiftly by those who have been there and done that.

Carmelo? He apparently disappeared sometime prior to my arrival, but from the manner in which his name is periodically mentioned, I guess I didn't miss anything. Heh-Heh.

Thanks, as always, for this forum, and peace be with you.

Well said, Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Here is the really sad truth.

There is nothing in that video to be ashamed of. That is how hunting happens sometimes and any "real hunter" has experienced it some shape or fashion themselves.

20 years ago...or maybe even 10...we would not have thought much about it...other than to learn. The video is educational.

The problem is that today...we find the need to sterilize our passion. To try to make it "OK" for those who don't hunt.

Video's and the Internet spread the few instances we would all like to learn from and for get around the world like an epidemic...hence the coined phrase "going viral."

Hunting will never/can never be always perfect. We can not sterilize it to be always perfect either. Instead of running from these videos...let's stand together and educate those that see them. Be supportive of our fellow hunters. I see nothing wrong with how this hunter and PH conducted themselves.

If we hide it or act ashamed of it ourselves...what message does that send to the world.

Couldn't say it better Lane.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Gentlemen

to set the record straight Ron has hunted with me several times- he is an exceptional shot and has killed several elephant with me with one shot kills. However obviously on this occasion he did not and that is hunting- no matter how good a shot you are, no matter how many eles you have killed you will one day miss your mark and that happened in this particular occasion.

Cheers Buzz

As has been said by most in this thread that could be any of us at any time whether the first or 50th safari.


I enjoyed the video for the reality of hunting it demonstrates though wish it hadn't become fodder for the lunatics out there in Tubeland.

I have been following this thread for a couple of days and have, until now, managed to refrain from commenting.
There is nothing in that video to cause embarrassment or require apology. The first shot looked pretty close to on the money to me, but the elephant didn't fall down dead. In my experience, follow-up shots are usually less than perfect. Once the first bullet has been absorbed, all bets are off.
The PH and client handled themselves well throughout. Buzz kept stayed in control and focused in a situation that easily could have gone pear shaped. The client stayed with the program and did everything he was called upon to do. The only mistake was being shy of the amount of ammo needed, and I'll bet he never does that again.
This is an African hunting discussion forum, and I think the video was instructive, and a good reminder of why I am very particular about who stands next to me in the presence of wild elephants.
I'll go to my room now.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:...
I just wish Buzz would get rid of that god awful hat...

Funny, my thought was, "cool hat, the way it is designed it doesn't get in the way".

I'd buy one if I knew where .

Excellent video footage of a realistic elephant hunt - PH very calm as is the client.
What I have learnt is the difference between "Bull Shit" and "Bullshit"

Yep, kinda like difference between tornado and divorce in Arkansas
None, either way you're gonna loose your trailer

I have not watched the video, but from reading the comments that have been made by many folks that from reading comments/observations they have made in the past on this site concerning hunting elephants and buffalo, I seriously doubt that there is anything in that video for those involved to be ashamed of.

One thing I have learned in my almost 45 years of hunting experience, even though none of it is African or Big 5, but even with Texas White tails or feral hogs, if a person hunts enough and shoots enough, nothing is guaranteed on how ANY particular animal is going to react when being shot.

I could be wrong and do not mean to offend anyone, but for those folks that state everything they have ever killed was a Dead Right There/One Shot Kill, has not done that much hunting/killing. That is just my opinion.

CHC you hit it right on the spot

CHC,
its not a matter of being ashamed of anything, or expecting every animal kill to be an ideal DRT.
However, as Ledvm and Saeed have stated, we can all observe and positively learn regardless of how much
hunting experience one has under their belt. - There is no end to learning.
That includes watching Shootaways cow fiasco.

Point of worth that some have indicated, is the amount of rounds[6?] the client was carrying for his SxS.
Also, soon after the animal was hit and dropped, the PH on approach told the client put one into the chest,
then reiterated it twice to the client by saying & repeating; 'in the rib'..'in the rib!',.. which the client ignored.
And, on the final shot we see the client pulling on a locked trigger and then partly unshouldering the
rifle to fumble with the safety,...on a rifle he seems unfamiliar with.

What if the situation were different, with the elephant charging and being right apon them,
the outcome could have been very different-very much not in the hunters favor.
i.e; if one was hunting MS style at 10 feet, the time wasted pulling on a locked trigger and then having to fumble
with the rifle & safety, could get one killed.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Here is the really sad truth.

There is nothing in that video to be ashamed of. That is how hunting happens sometimes and any "real hunter" has experienced it some shape or fashion themselves.

20 years ago...or maybe even 10...we would not have thought much about it...other than to learn. The video is educational.

The problem is that today...we find the need to sterilize our passion. To try to make it "OK" for those who don't hunt.

Video's and the Internet spread the few instances we would all like to learn from and for get around the world like an epidemic...hence the coined phrase "going viral."

Hunting will never/can never be always perfect. We can not sterilize it to be always perfect either. Instead of running from these videos...let's stand together and educate those that see them. Be supportive of our fellow hunters. I see nothing wrong with how this hunter and PH conducted themselves.

If we hide it or act ashamed of it ourselves...what message does that send to the world.

Lane,

I suggest you read the comments regarding the video on the tube site. These nuts are so are rabid. I find this more and more. INHO society's acceptance of hunting which was once 72% in the USA; is in free fall.

Jeff

I am sorry but did Trax say something?

Damn I love this feature.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Here is the really sad truth.

There is nothing in that video to be ashamed of. That is how hunting happens sometimes and any "real hunter" has experienced it some shape or fashion themselves.

20 years ago...or maybe even 10...we would not have thought much about it...other than to learn. The video is educational.

The problem is that today...we find the need to sterilize our passion. To try to make it "OK" for those who don't hunt.

Video's and the Internet spread the few instances we would all like to learn from and for get around the world like an epidemic...hence the coined phrase "going viral."

Hunting will never/can never be always perfect. We can not sterilize it to be always perfect either. Instead of running from these videos...let's stand together and educate those that see them. Be supportive of our fellow hunters. I see nothing wrong with how this hunter and PH conducted themselves.

If we hide it or act ashamed of it ourselves...what message does that send to the world.

Lane,

I suggest you read the comments regarding the video on the tube site. These nuts are so are rabid. I find this more and more. INHO society's acceptance of hunting which was once 72% in the USA; is in free fall.

Jeff

I see your point Jeff and I personally would never post anykind of hunting video good, bad, or otherwise in a public venue. However, some feel the need to do so and if we act ashamed of it ourselves...I can only see that making it worse.

As far as how to reverse the free fall of public opinion on hunting...I have no idea of how to do that. I had a hard enough time just getting consensus on shooting older lions...with some holdouts to this day.

Lane,

I don't like the kowtow garbage either.

We are now in the habit of allowing ourselves to be shouted down by the shrill, screeching minority.

Hunting is just part of the equation.

Jeff

The problem with video, accepting in this case that it was not posted by the hunter or the PH, is that if we do post we are, intentional or not, inviting others along on the hunt with us.

In some countries and hunting cultures, it is not acceptable to criticise other hunters no matter how much of a balls up they may make, I learned this while in Germany.

In my own country you would likely get ragged in a big way by your mates if you ran out of ammo or mucked up a shot, forgot to put the safety off etc. Knowing our Aussie cousins and the pretty laid back view they take on life they wouldn’t hold back much when things go pear shaped in the hunting field either. Off course it is usually all good natured except where maybe you’ve miss an easy shot while your mate is holding the spotlight having walked for miles in the dark and then you’ll likely get a “for f….ks sake what are you doing, there it is again shoot the damn thing”.

For me, and this is just me, had I been the hunter in the video posted here, I would have been saying loudly as admonishment to myself “sh…t that was real f……k up”.
As I posted earlier I don’t see anything wrong with the video , some things just didn’t pan out as expected but that is just hunting and the way it turns out sometimes, at the same time though I don’t get defensive if someone sees it differently.

I know everyone wants to do the classic brain shot when they hunt elephant but from what other footage I have seen, a properly placed shoulder/chest shot has always worked very well.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
I know everyone wants to do the classic brain shot when they hunt elephant but from what other footage I have seen, a properly placed shoulder/chest shot has always worked very well.

Not so. Buzz stated as much when he posted that the only ele he's lost was the result of a shoulder shot. I can think of one hunt report off the top of my head where the bull was very nearly lost due to a shoulder shot with a 350gr RN Woodleigh in .375. They got it in the end, but it was a struggle requiring serious tracking skills. The brain shot is still the best option in most cases, but there are always exceptions to any rule.

John Taylor said of the heart-lung shot "It is not to be despised."

A good heart/lung shot with a good flat nose solid - for penetration! - kills an elephant quickly, much more quickly than you would imagine when you consider that the hunter is using a non-expanding bullet of somewhere between .366" and maybe .500". I have had well shot whitetails run further with heart/lung shots than elephants which were killed with heart/lung shots (after missing the brain with the first shot.)

But, since the result of the first shot can't immediately be known it inevitably turns into a bit of a rifle drill as the elephant runs after the shot, and it is boringly easy and counter to the whole concept of getting close and closing the deal instantly.

To be reserved for that 100lber you can close with!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
I know everyone wants to do the classic brain shot when they hunt elephant but from what other footage I have seen, a properly placed shoulder/chest shot has always worked very well.

Not so. Buzz stated as much when he posted that the only ele he's lost was the result of a shoulder shot. I can think of one hunt report off the top of my head where the bull was very nearly lost due to a shoulder shot with a 350gr RN Woodleigh in .375. They got it in the end, but it was a struggle requiring serious tracking skills. The brain shot is still the best option in most cases, but there are always exceptions to any rule.

Most of the old time professionals talked of using heart lung shots where they couldn't get a brain shot especially once they had disturbed the herd with a first up brain shot, and spoke of the animal maybe going 100 yards before pulling up and going down.

I can see the point that there may not be any immediate effect as the animal takes off, and today probably leads to a mini barrage of shots to try and get it down. The old experts knew they had planted the bullet well and what the result would be so most often didn't seem to follow up immediately especially if they were still taking other bulls from the herd.

What's been your experience with the heart lung shot Todd especially with the large calibres you use?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
I know everyone wants to do the classic brain shot when they hunt elephant but from what other footage I have seen, a properly placed shoulder/chest shot has always worked very well.

Not so. Buzz stated as much when he posted that the only ele he's lost was the result of a shoulder shot. I can think of one hunt report off the top of my head where the bull was very nearly lost due to a shoulder shot with a 350gr RN Woodleigh in .375. They got it in the end, but it was a struggle requiring serious tracking skills. The brain shot is still the best option in most cases, but there are always exceptions to any rule.

Most of the old time professionals talked of using heart lung shots where they couldn't get a brain shot especially once they had disturbed the herd with a first up brain shot, and spoke of the animal maybe going 100 yards before pulling up and going down.

I can see the point that there may not be any immediate effect as the animal takes off, and today probably leads to a mini barrage of shots to try and get it down. The old experts knew they had planted the bullet well and what the result would be so most often didn't seem to follow up immediately especially if they were still taking other bulls from the herd.

What's been your experience with the heart lung shot Todd especially with the large calibres you use?

I haven't taken any heart / lung shots as a first option to date, but wouldn't be opposed to it under the right circumstances. I've taken a heart / lung shot with the second barrel, and a few once the elephant was down from a closely missed brain shot as follow up, but I've not chosen the shoulder on purpose to start off with.

The purpose of my previous post was to point out that "from what other footage I have seen, a properly placed shoulder/chest shot has always worked very well " is NOT an accurate statement.

While I obviously much prefer the brain shots I always say a good heart lung shot should not be ruled out! It is a very effective shot if well placed. I have however, in the early part of my career, had some mammoth tracking sessions due to LOW placed heart lung shots- remember ele do not bleed!. Thankfully due to awesome trackers we got all of them.

I always tell my clients with trophy bulls that if we find the "right" bull and we decide to shoot it we will try for a brain shot but if for what ever reason that is not possible then do a heart lung it BUT expect a back up!

quote:

a properly placed shoulder/chest shot has always worked very well.

It does indeed and while it may not produce a DRT scenario, the elephant will not travel far and the trail cannot be missed.

All shot placements appear in the "Perfect Shot" - this being one among several.

A shoulder shot is a different ball game as the bullet might not center a lung; totally miss the spine and in which case you will have an elephant hastily departing in the opposite direction with hardly a blood trail to follow.

Should the bullet hit a high lung it would be advisable to stock up on water and be ready for a long hike and hope for the best.

Trax

Buzz does not say "in the rib""in the rib" he says in the head twice which the client then does!!

A certain PH always insists on shoulder shots. He has lost a LOT of elephants over the years.

Jeff