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http://www.lionaid.org/news/20...rom-south-africa.htm | ||
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It would be fun to know how many of the "wild" lions are being imported to Europe vs. US. | |||
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just when i dared hope she was gone for good. SHE ARISES AGAIN!. please go back to PETA headquarters and stay there. OH, that's right, Lion Aid is an unbiased observer in this process. essentially everyone on this forum knows SA lions are basically all farm raised- the number shot around Kruger is the proverbial drop in the bucket- the rest come with tattoes/ear tags. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Jo, You are having a Happy New Year and no doubt a prosperous one? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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If anyone had any doubt before that LionAid is nothing but an anti-hunting, anti-conservation orgenization, this should remove any doubts whatsoever. I am glad to say that I have been instrumental in changing a number of people's minds about giving to orgenizations like PETA in the past, and I will add LionAid to my list of orgenizations to help people see the truth behind them. | |||
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A.Dahlgren, Using the CITES trade figures available for all to see on the CITES website it is a small percentage. Lion exports from SA for the period 2000 - 2009 are as follows:- 2000 - 189 2001 - 149 2002 - 192 2003 - 177 2004 - 182 2005 - 235 2006 - 284 2007 - 414 2008 - 455 2009 - 374 Total = 2651 The top 4 importing countries were :- USA 71% Spain 5% China 3% Germany 2% A total of 81% of trophies exported. It would be fair to say of the remaining 19% some of those exports will be going into the EU but i will just go on the figures i have. The USA imported 71% = 1882 trophies between 2000 and 2009. The EU imported 7% = 186 trophies between 2000 and 2009.
jdollar, They do? I find this statement rather strange considering when i raised this issue before there was only a handful willing to admit this practice went on! Ah i see now, it was the old 'we know this goes on but we ignore it, brush it under the carpet and hopefully it will go away.'
Fairgame, Not so far, i've been ill for 3 weeks now 
Ssaeed, As is your absolute right to do. Unfortunately though these people are obviously not those who can actually do something about the hunting industry or it's corrupt aspects! I came here a couple of months ago and raised this issue and what would happen if it was not addressed. You (generic) chose to ignore, deny and belittle the issue and it has proved to be to your (generic) detriment. This you may think is only a minor victory and inconsequential to the overall picture but by doing so you underestimate. I am confident when i say that 2012 and 13 will be extremely important for the conservation of the lion. | |||
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They all tend to get wild when shot.  | |||
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please note Ms. Whatever, I said everyone on this forum- other hunters in general may not and probably don't have a clue. this group is particularly well informed about SA lion hunting and the vast majority recognize it for what it is- shooting of captive bred and raised lions. as long as it is legally done i have no problem with that( after all, it is perfectly legal) but choose not to participate in it. it is absolute bullshit that only a handful recognized or admitted that this is occuring. your research here is obviously shoddy. you will find( if you bother to look) that most here recognize the reality of the situation but as long as it is legal according to SA law, don't condemn it- but at the same time don't condone it and will not participate in it. please do us all a favor- go away and don't come back. this is a hunting forum-not a PETA or ALF website. at the very least, post your diatribes on the political subfoum where it belongs. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Another inaccuracy. In fact, we (generic) simply chose to ignore you! | |||
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Gentlemen, These people could NOT careless what happens to the lions, or any other animal for that matter. Their only concern is to stop hunting, by any means. Sadly, Joe Public is just plain ignorant of the facts, which these exploit. They are getting paid by people who erronsously think they are doing some good for the conservation. Here is a small fact that should be taken into consideration. This orgenization claims to support lions. If that is a fact, what better idea can one have than breed lions for hunting? And reduce the pressure on hunting wild lions? LionAid could not careless what happens to lions, all they care about is how much "donations" are paid into their coffers. | |||
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I am confident when i say that 2012 and 13 will be extremely important for the conservation of the lion.[/QUOTE] Similar to the important conservation move of banning hunting in Kenya in 1977? | |||
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You will thrash this argument until the cows come home and it won't serve crap ! Like it or not sports hunting as we one knew it is coming to an end and this is just the beginning, thanks to a combination of our own egos and arrogance, we are largely responsible - how many times has it be said that some restraint should be applied in posting gory pics with grinning hunter, video clips of the whoops and high fives, etc. etc. - yes, we know and understand those thrilling moments that no one will deny us, not even PETA, LIONAID, GOGREEN, or whatever but times have changed and we have a war going on with these ignorant groups who, sadly to say, are better organized and funded(so it seems)at rallying support for their cause than us hunters for ours. Though a little too late I would be looking at the vetting of future prospective members applying to join websites such as AR and block access to those who are not members. | |||
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Might i suggest you go back and read the thread entitled 'caveat emptor' where this very issue was discussed and you participated.
The several pages of that particular thread beg to differ with you Todd.
I'm pretty sure you don't need me to answer this. Surely you keep abreast of what is happening regarding your right to hunt lion and other species?
You are correct, the debate is never ending and both sides can put up a good case. There is research out there for both sides which to a casual observer would be pretty compelling. I personally am not trying to deny you (generic) of your thrilling moment but i will fight to deny you the right to hunt species which cannot sustain the losses for the sake of a trophy. I know your arguments inside out for hunting as a conservation tool, i have learnt them mostly here. I also know the arguments for banning hunting inside out, i obviously learnt them elsewhere. I have listened, taken on board, analysed and made my decision where i stand on the hunting of lion. I do not personally feel it is sustainable to allow trophy hunting of these magnificent creatures to continue. However i do not say you do not have the right to be hunters. I do not like and would not participate but i accept you have the right to hunt providing the animals you hunt are sustainable. Regarding closing AR to anyone but hunters, do you not think that that will just give ammunition to those opposing you who already state you are a closed, secretive group? Why would you (generic) hide your activities if you are doing nothing wrong? To be fair i have not once being abusive here to anyone despite being on the recieving end of abuse and name calling. I have been polite at all times and i have tried my best to answer any questions and provide any research you (generic) have asked for. Why would you wish to go against 'freedom of speech' for the sake of someone who has caused you (generic) no harm. I could even have done you some possible good recently. A member here knowing i was a writer asked me if i would consider writing a piece getting the hunters side of the debate out there. I agreed and was writing a piece which gave both sides of the story. Unfortunately after certain attitudes were made plain here i no longer felt that i could write the piece and it now sits in my documents unfinished and unpublished. Now tell me were those the actions of a rabid anti hunter? Or were they the actions of someone who wants what is best for the lion and was trying to put out both sides of the story? | |||
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As to some of your reasoning i understand. But the deliberate poisoning of cats Tanzania and in Botswana where they have closed lion hunting and shot and killed problem lions ( if I am correct 150+), who is at fault here not the hunter but the game dept or government. When man pushes into the lions habitat they, the lion always looses. Mike | |||
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Jolouburn: Let's face it ! Your beloved Lion is headed for the proverbial brick wall ! There is ample evidence to show and prove this ! The million dollar question is how are you, we going to stop this course ? Outright banning of importation of Lion products / trophies ? Or an outright ban of hunting? African scientists have identified and conceded that the only course of action to work for the African scene is sustainable utilization, outright bans do not work, burning large stocks of ivory has not worked, simply putting animals in parks, small islands surrounded by 3rd world human habitation has not worked. So to all these so called conservation minded folks sitting all over the world I would ask: If you were truelly conservators why do you not pay heed to those on the ground in Africa ? Why do you blindly persist in supporting actions that have been proven not to aid in the conservation of a species? Whist I personally have no intention of shooting a so called "canned lion" if that course of action ie the propagation of a captive species for the purpose of consumption leads to a decrease on consumptive pressure on wild lion populations why not embrace it? Or is the blind following of an ideology based on largely human emotion by arm chair " animal lovers" over riding common sense and wisdom ? | |||
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Did you say something? | |||
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Jo, truth is this: past experience has taught us that most (if not all) articles and TV documentaries relating to hunting that are written / produced by anti hunters such as yourself ends up being biased and conveys a completely wrong impression of that what we love and live for i.e. hunting. So; no disrespect intended - but maybe it was just as well that you opted not to follow through with this endeavour of yours. If you could enlighten us as to how the shooting of canned lions can possibly threaten the populations / existence of wild Lions this would be much appreciated by all here (and everywhere else). Whilst I am no advocate for the shooting of canned animals - whether that be Lion, Kudu or Impala - I simply cannot understand your point. Regards, Chris Troskie Tel. +27 82 859-0771 email. chris@ct-safaris.com Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA www.ct-safaris.com https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4 | |||
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I think if you read closely this isn't banning the import of lions into the EU. Rather the CITES check box on the import form must be more closely monitored. From now on the shipper will simply move the pencil 1/2" up and check the "not wild" box. They are making a rather profound announcement out of not much. In any event the forms should be filled out correctly anyhow. | |||
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But thier announcemnt sounds so good for the anti brigade. "LOOK, WE MANAGED TO GET LION HUNTING IN SOUTH AFRICA BANNED! GIVE US MORE MONEY" And the ignorants pay more money to them. | |||
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And they put it into their pockets! | |||
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Well said. I for one can sleep well at night knowing that some of the funds from my safaris will contribute to the maintenance of wilderness game areas such as Chewore Safari area and Niassa Reserve. Perhaps just a little but I should think it adds up to far more of a contribution than what comes from the average bleeding heart try hard so called conservationist. I believe the wild Lion's future is greatly improved by these hunting subsidised reserves. One only need to spend some time visiting these places and listening to the men and women that work there to see this is quite obvious. | |||
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Retreever, I don't think there is anyone out there who would deny that the lion faces many conservation issues.
ALF, I think we would all agree as i have said above that there are many factors playing a part in the lions decline. There are also many ideas on how to deal with these factors. I personally cannot comment on the best course of action for every factor as i certainly do not have all the answers. Regarding hunting i personally would like to see at least a temporary ban placed on lion hunting. Not all hunting, lion hunting. I understand the arguments for hunting as a conservation tool and for some species, places it may work but i do not feel it is working for the African lion. Regarding research supporting lion hunting, for every document put forward there is an anti-hunting one to counter it. As i have said before independent unbiased research is needed. Conservation minded folks are taking notice of scientists on the ground just perhaps not the scientists you (generic) would wish them to. People have a right to make their own opinions about everything and anything and just because they disagree with you (generic) doesn't make them bad people and it doesn't make them automatically wrong. After all the decline of the lion shows any measures being taken to protect it at present including hunting as a conservation tool are NOT working. Canned lion hunting has not taken the pressure off the declining lion, most here openly say they would not (knowingly) hunt canned lion. They are not the lion of choice. The pride male is! As for blind following of an ideology i for one object to this. I have spent many hours here listening and learning why hunters think hunting is a conservation tool and good for the lion in particular. I have not blindly followed anything. You insult peoples intelligence with remarks like these. If anything i have found many here are blindly following their beliefs unwilling to even read or consider anything that may challenge their belief and their beloved hunting.
Regarding the article i take your point but at least i was willing to try. I do not see articles out there (in major publications) by hunters supporting your cause. My objections to canned hunting are many. My objections to canned hunting lions being passed off as wild lions probably many again. I will keep this short and sweet however as i have gone over this many times in another thread. Canned lions being passed off as wild firstly is corrupt and dishonest. As a community who is often accused of being corrupt and dishonest etc i would think you would want this practice to stop also. Figures for the export of wild lion are recorded incorrectly in the trade database, making it appear there are far more wild lion than there really are. These figures play a part (i am reliably informed) when quotas for following years are decided. For those outside looking in at the hunting industry it makes them think hunters do not care about the corruption in their industry such as the freelance PH's who dishonestly get their business by means of berating other PH's. Those hunting outfitters who allow the hunting of more than the quota they have, accidental miscounts of animals in their boundaries. I could go on and on but to be fair i think you all know what REALLY goes on in the hunting industry. And before you say it yes there is corruption everywhere from governments to banks to those who provide dangerous weapons to countries they shouldn't be. However when you (generic) are openy seen to be denying or ignoring these corrupt practices it does not garner you any support.
John, Surely you are not suggesting that the hunting industry and those involved will corruptly fill in wild lions as canned just to get them exported? (shock horror) I would suggest to those criticising the houses of others regarding funds to not throw stones when they live in glass houses. Imagine away Ozhunter for i would suggest much of your so called contribution may well never make it to the cnservation of animals just as some money donated to wildlife charities never makes it. This is why i get off my ass and put my actions into the conservation of the lion rather than just money. I know my motives and actions are pure and theres no better feeling than knowing you ARE making a difference. At the end of the day though we can hash out these debates as much as we wish but it changes nothing. The tide has turned and the days of hunting lion are numbered. | |||
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"and the days of hunting lion are numbered" As are the days of the lion........ | |||
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I sincerely hope not ! | |||
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Your "hope" is worthless. Monetary value of the Lion is all that will save it. In Africa, if it pays it stays. This is not a difficult concept to grasp if a person actually wants to be neutral on the subject. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Jo: For whatever reason there was a notable increase in Lions taken from 2005 onwards - do you have an answer for this sharp increase or has it something to do with "lion breeders" having got wind of something unfavorable brewing against them like shutting down their operation, which did happen albeit briefly until they had the decision reversed? Of the 2651 recorded as having been killed and exported (I assume they were dead as in trophy form), can you come up with a proportionate percentage of naturally wild against "canned" ? The quoted figures somehow suggest SA as having a greater lion population than TZ which as far as I am aware is still leading in their numbers (we don't have canned projects - yet)  | |||
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Jolouburn: If you feel insulted by my post to you I apologize and if I am mistaken by your intentions then again my apologies, having said that your posting here and position taken so far suggests a strong anti hunting bias? As to hunting as a conservation tool my position is this: Hunting per se, on it's own as an action is purely consumptive , ie it does not add to numbers, it takes away. You are killing species for whatever purpose you choose as a hunter. In the history of the world it has been shown to be a very destructive agent. In my own country hunting very nearly bought about the total annialation of all large game. It brought numbers of certain species very close to extinction and when I mean close I mean close with numbers of certain species down to the teens. Having said that hunting, by neccesity then has to be coupled to other actions and or provisions to become a conservation tool. It requires a certain level of social and economic sophistication in order to achieve this status. If used as it is in modern context of sport hunting, or other forms, it becomes not only a positive force in terms of habitat and species conservation it adds directly and indirectly to the social and economic well being of people associated with it's practice. This in essence is why sustainable utilization in terms of the african context has been successful and likely will be the only model that succeeds. | |||
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"and the days of hunting lion are numbered" Let us note the names of those decision makers responsible for the above and other lion conservation decisions for allowing sentiment to cloud their professionalism and let us record these in the anals of history for when this occurs, they should be held accountable and be remembered for being responsible for the total decline of wild lion populations. Allow me to start: Dereck and Beverly Joubert (and their related ORGS and NGOs) Lion AId IFAW Born Free Foundation Several corrupt African Wildlife Departments USFW Therefore, I now suggest every hunter to go as often as they can and hunt as many lion as they legally can. Let's shoot them all and be done with it. This arguing for or against is getting tiring and costing everyone a lot of money and energy.  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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I'll do my best come June, I promise. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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No doubt a lot of our contribution will not go directly to the Game Animals with much of it going to the managing Outfitters and government in charge. Yet it is far from my imagination that when told by "on site" game reserve ecologists and management that without the funds from hunters it would be extremely hard if not impossible to convince governments that they should leave these massive tracts of virgin forests unspoilt over providing their people more farmland (naturally a popular alternative for the local voters). I too get great satisfaction knowing I am contributing in not only the management of Africa's amazing wildlife but helping to save some of her dwindling wilderness areas also. | |||
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The above statement describes the bunny huggers perfectly, as they masquerade as "conservationists" You lot will twist any study to reflect what YOU want the public to know, regardless of what the truth is. Hunters have done more for conservation in one year than all the bunny huggers have done in all their lives! | |||
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No Jim. It would seem that some would like the troublesome Lions of Kaindu to be snared/shot or poisoned by the Community Wildlife Eradication Committee who so far are doing a sterling job on their own. And without funding.  ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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True, Saeed, but Kudos to the Sun for adding in the last paragraph: "Dr Fennessy, of the Giraffe Conservation Foundation, has controversially argued in favour of hunting. He said: "In the countries where you can hunt legally, the populations are increasing but across Africa the numbers are dropping. "It shows that if properly managed, the hunting can be sustainable." | |||
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and so begins another assault ! These dum, ignorant pr*cks never think to put pressure either directly or via their own governments, on range states to look after their own animals. Of course I am the ignorant one, I forgot that the aim is to stop hunting and wildlife has really nothing to do with the matter. | |||
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Jolobourn, Have you read Lindsey et alia's paper on the financial importance of lion to hunting and maintaining wild areas? Care to comment? "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Fujotupu, I'm afraid i could only speculate as to why there was a sharp rise in numbers from 2005. I also cannot you give you a proportionate number wild to canned as i don't think anyone actually knows. With loopholes allowing canned lion to be passed off as wild lion it would be impossible to tell. The figures certainly do suggest SA has a larger population of wild lion than it really has and this is part of the problem. It may also not be a problem which the EU ban will solve. As someone suggested earlier the lion will now be passed off as canned on CITES forms allowing the problem and the corruption to continue.
ALF, I didn't take offence From a purely personal point of view i am anti hunting, i do not and will never (i don't think) understand the enjoyment a hunter gains from killing defenceless animals. However i also acknowledge that hunters have every right to hunt animals whilst it remains legal. There are many things i don't like that go on but i know will not change just because i dislike them. From a conservation point of view i understand the concept of hunting as a conservation tool and all the benefits that run alongside this. However as the populations of many species decline in areas where hunting is legal i do not think hunting as a conservation tool can be said to be working. I also do not think that it ever will whilst governments sit back and corruption in the hunting industry continues.
Bwanamich, It is to be hoped that none of those hundred and odd guests which regularly view this site take your words and use them. You do yourself no favours making statements like this.
Does noone see the problem with this statement? Where hunting is allowed the populations are increasing and yet across Africa they are not. Erm hunting is allowed in Africa!! Obviously hunting in Africa is not been properly managed at best and not working full stop at worst. Bwanamich, No i havent and nor can i find it. I will be happy to read it if you could point me in the right direction to do so. As for the article in the sun newspaper, i read it and many of the comments left. If you stop to think for a moment most hunters do not reside in the UK, they are American. The paper is British and most reading it take their children on holiday to play on the beach, swim in a pool and join kids clubs. They do not take their kids on a hunting safari. Of course they are going to be outraged seeing the pics that were published! It also has to be said you do nothing to help your own cause. Many many hunters come across as arrogant, selfish and unable to reason. These are the ones whose voices are heard when it comes to the media. Those of you who have conservation at heart are never heard and to be honest for this you have noone to blame but yourselves. All the world sees is a group of people who take pleasure from killing innocent animals to the point of extinction. Whilst the rest of the worls bans sports which are seen as cruel such as fox hunting, bull fighting, dog fighting, cock fighting etc etc America doesn't, they advocate them. The rest of the world does not like this or the arrogance you present it with. This EU ban may not change things hugely at present but the further work many conservation organisations are putting into the plight of the lion will. In part you will only have yourselves to blame when the chips land. | |||
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Could you please post proof of Americans "advocating" these sports? Most of the above are peculiar to Continental or Latin tastes. Not American.
Ah, so just another Continental that doesn't particularly care for Americans. Explains alot. Thanks for properly identifying what you are really about. Prejudices usually rise to the surface sooner or later. On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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Bwanamrm, Huge apologies that sentence did not read right at all and i didn't check it. What i meant was not that America advocates cruel sports but they do advocate hunting. As for me having a prejudice against Americans, not at all i have many American friends. But it is the truth that the people who abhor hunting think those who advocate it do so with arrogance. | |||
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And vice versa... And if I am not mistaken the Brits may have banned fox hunting and the Spaniards bull fighting and cock fighting but both still practice their rich tradition of shooting sports and hunting both upland, waterfowl and big game. So I don't follow your logic as to Americans being the only country that "advocates" hunting. A poor argument really and not well thought out. If you seriously researched the United States and what hunters can and cannot import you will see our USFWS being much more stringent than the authorities in EU countries. Alas, I find I must stop before being labeled "arrogant". On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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