quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

But it is the truth that the people who abhor hunting think those who advocate it do so with arrogance.

And vice versa...

And if I am not mistaken the Brits may have banned fox hunting and the Spaniards bull fighting and cock fighting but both still practice their rich tradition of shooting sports and hunting both upland, waterfowl and big game. So I don't follow your logic as to Americans being the only country that "advocates" hunting.

I also do not understand her logic.
"Poor defenseless animals" What about a cow, sheep, chicken, Pig, fish. At least they can still run/swim in circles but the stationary Cabbage, Carrots, pumpkins and other fruits etc. What about them? They are more canned than anything.

Also. According to her the Brits hate killing these days. What do you call Iraq, Afganistan etc then? Do people fall under a different killing law? Maybe it is because BP and other petrolium companies mean so much that when nobody produces fuel anymore then the ladies have to walk to the shops and that would be such a shame.

I farm with game because I grew up amongst them and I protect them. I could just as easily farmed with veggies and then killed every wild animal that dared to come into the crops and destroy what I would then produce for the vegetarians.

Joloburn,
Article relegated to page 3 of the forum titled:

"Study: Limited lion hunting better than outright ban"

quote:

Does noone see the problem with this statement?
Where hunting is allowed the populations are increasing and yet across Africa they are not. Erm hunting is allowed in Africa!!
Obviously hunting in Africa is not been properly managed at best and not working full stop at worst.

No problem at all with this statement.

Hunting is NOT allowed across the whole of Africa

Even where allowed, it doesn't occur across the entire country/region/district/etc.

There appears to be more non-hunting areas than hunting one's

Where it occurs, (country/region/district/etc) game pops are increasing and where it doesn't occur they are decreasing.

Quite simple really.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Using the CITES trade figures available for all to see on the CITES website it is a small percentage.
Lion exports from SA for the period 2000 - 2009 are as follows:-
2000 - 189
2001 - 149
2002 - 192
2003 - 177
2004 - 182
2005 - 235
2006 - 284
2007 - 414
2008 - 455
2009 - 374
Total = 2651

Jo:

For whatever reason there was a notable increase in Lions taken from 2005 onwards - do you have an answer for this sharp increase or has it something to do with "lion breeders" having got wind of something unfavorable brewing
against them like shutting down their operation, which did happen albeit briefly until they had the decision reversed?

Of the 2651 recorded as having been killed and exported (I assume they were dead as in trophy form), can you come up with a proportionate percentage of naturally wild against "canned" ?

The quoted figures somehow suggest SA as having a greater lion population than TZ which as far as I am aware is still leading in their numbers
(we don't have canned projects - yet)

A captive bred lion that was released for a specified period (2 year IIRC)is then considered a Wild one accoridng to SA laws. This could contribute to the confusing stats.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

May be we need to reflect on the attitude of these mindless nitwits who want to stop hunting, or the breeding, of any wildlife.

When hou sit down at your dinner table tonight, you might just think that if our ancestors had to put up with such mindless people, we might not be able to enjoy a nice steak today.

Imagine them demanding that all cattle should be set free, and no one is allowed to farm them.

Take an example of their recent success in the US.

Where they have been able to bribe some politician to ban the breeding of oryx, adax and such animals.

They are being sold for meat, before the law comes into effect.

quote:

And if I am not mistaken the Brits may have banned fox hunting and the Spaniards bull fighting and cock fighting but both still practice their rich tradition of shooting sports and hunting both upland, waterfowl and big game. So I don't follow your logic as to Americans being the only country that "advocates" hunting.

A poor argument really and not well thought out.

You are correct in that the UK continues to hunt. However hunting in the UK is mainly 'food source' orientated not 'trophy orientated'.

quote:

I also do not understand her logic.
"Poor defenseless animals" What about a cow, sheep, chicken, Pig, fish. At least they can still run/swim in circles but the stationary Cabbage, Carrots, pumpkins and other fruits etc. What about them? They are more canned than anything.

My logic is perfectly understandable and i will explain it. People in general do not object to an animal being killed (as humanely as possible) when they are a food source and the purpose of the killing is for food. People in general do object though when the main reason for killing an animal is ones enjoyment and to use as a trophy. These animals are only used as food sources (sometimes) as a secondary purpose.
Also most animals killed for food are not endangered or vulnerable or about to come so. Some trophy hunting species are and people do not like this.
As ignorant as you find these people you do nothing to 'educate' them so have noone to blame but yourselves when they call you barbaric, evil, rambo types.

quote:

Also. According to her the Brits hate killing these days. What do you call Iraq, Afganistan etc then? Do people fall under a different killing law? Maybe it is because BP and other petrolium companies mean so much that when nobody produces fuel anymore then the ladies have to walk to the shops and that would be such a shame.

I never said anything of the sort. I will say though that the majority of UK people do not believe we should have been involved in Iraq or Afghanistan. We due to our prime minister being up the presidents arse followed you in to back you up. The British public were not behind the love of oil that the USA went in for in the first place.

quote:

No problem at all with this statement.

Hunting is NOT allowed across the whole of Africa

Even where allowed, it doesn't occur across the entire country/region/district/etc.

There appears to be more non-hunting areas than hunting one's

Where it occurs, (country/region/district/etc) game pops are increasing and where it doesn't occur they are decreasing.

Perhaps you should have been asked instead of him because he does not state it in any way anywhere near what you said. He uses Africa, not parts of Africa, not non-hunting parts of Africa but Africa as a whole.

quote:

A captive bred lion that was released for a specified period (2 year IIRC)is then considered a Wild one accoridng to SA laws. This could contribute to the confusing stats.

An honest canned operation yes, a dishonest one no. There are loopholes in this as i have shown before.


As you (generic) have said so many times hunters are in the minority nowadays. Go back in time and we all had to hunt to eat but as time went on new methods were employed and evolved. It became an archaic practice and one that is seen by the majority as barbaric and cruel. People equate it with such things as beheading, burning at the stake, cock, dog, bear fighting, out dated and unnecessary.
You can either accept this or you can do something and get the knowledge out there of your belief that hunting is a conservation tool. You (generic) choose to do nothing but sit in your glass houses and throw stones and have the nerve to complain when stones are thrown at you. I would suggest you stop whinging and name calling and do something constructive.

Bwanamich,

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of the research you wished me to comment on. I have just now had to chance to read it and yes i have some comments.
Firstly i looked at who had funded and participated in this research. It's always interesting to know who's word you are taking and in this case i found it to be funded and partially researched by Panthera and various affiliated persons. For me this does not bode well considering Panthera are not impartial and therefore the research is not unbiased.

Having said that IF you take the research at face value and accept that limited hunting of the lion is better than none then the research is pretty convincing.

However i would suggest that this piece fails to take into account all the variables which appear beyond anyones control at the moment.
These would include :-
Levels of poaching - as we all know and would agree poaching is on the increase and would make a quota of sustainable lion kills hard to judge.
Disease - many diseases are striking lion populations and again are on the increase and would make sustainable offtake hard to judge.
Human encroachment - less space, less lion prides therefore sustainable offtake again becomes hard to judge.
Human / lion conflict - how many lions will be killed as a result of conflict with humans is again not known resulting in sustainable offtake hard to judge.
Quotas being ignored - hunting outfitters offering more than their quota etc etc
Canned lion being passed off as wild or vice versa - misleads on amount of actual wild lions therefore resulting in higher quotas.
Legal regulations of lions allowed to be killed - rules need to be set in place across the board and adhered to to ensure that young lions and pride males with cubs are not killed.

It is my opinion that USA Today is correct when it says :-

quote:

urgent efforts are needed by range states to reform lion hunting management, and temporary moratoria could be considered for use as levers to promote such changes."

I'm pretty sure governments and the hunting industry would be pretty quick to clean up their houses when faced with the thought of losing their primary source of income.

Article aside i read through the posts that had been left in response to this article and research and it seems that some do not believe lion hunting should be limited never mind banned. They have hunted in so and so place and saw loads of lions therefore how could it be possible a decrease of offtake is needed. Some here really do not care about the lion and its conservation, just the right to hunt it.
However i was also encouraged by the people who posted favourably about at least a decrease in the number of lion put on quota. No matter how different our opinions i respect those who have conservation of the lion at heart.

quote:

You are correct in that the UK continues to hunt. However hunting in the UK is mainly 'food source' orientated not 'trophy orientated'.

Again, not totally correct but twisted to fit your version of logic.

What is your proof that hunting in the US is more about trophies than consumptive uses of wildlife? What do you think happens to the deer and elk we harvest here in the states? Let it rot after we have our pictures taken with it? No we consume it!

As a matter of fact I receive hunting literature offering trophy red stag, roe buck, muntjac and Chinese water deer in England, red and roe deer in Scotland, red deer in Ireland. Seems to me trophy hunting is alive and well in the British Isles.

I always chuckle at this "more noble path" drivel... somehow hunting is different, more sophisticated, less bloody in your world than mine.

Again, a weak argument and not well constructed.

quote:

Firstly i looked at who had funded and participated in this research. It's always interesting to know who's word you are taking and in this case i found it to be funded and partially researched by Panthera and various affiliated persons. For me this does not bode well considering Panthera are not impartial and therefore the research is not unbiased.

Ah the old "dismiss any research that doesn't support your point as biased" trick. You really are transparent and really not as credible or intelligent as you make yourself out to be. You claim to refute and contradict our arguments for responsible lion hunting with your version of facts and then scoff at the research we offer as "biased". I think this charade of posting to have us "change" your mind is really a ploy to use our own words against us and show your "anti-hunting" community how easy it is to get hunters to rise to the bait.

This debate is really nothing more than a waste of time. Mine by responding to someone who won't debate a real scientific article and who throws up indefensible and unproven statements as fact. And other AR readers who have wasted their time reading this thread.

I am out on this one, my friends. Good luck and godspeed!

quote:

You are correct in that the UK continues to hunt. However hunting in the UK is mainly 'food source' orientated not 'trophy orientated'.

Have you ever been to rural Africa? What is the one thing that the people want more than anything else? MEAT!!!

Do you think that anything goes to waste? In our concessions not even a Lion or Leopards goes to the Vultures. Everything gets eaten.

Like you pointed out to me about the people in the UK that consumes the meat from an butchery that was killed by someone else. The same applies to us. A client shoots it and the people eats it. Our job as PH's is to get the client, the people and the animal (that is carefully selected) at the same place at the same time.

Your argument is so naive. Please go to rural Africa and tell the locals there that they are not going to get the meat from the game anymore because people like you are going to import meat for them - you are then the paying client - Us PH's will distribute it equally and the animals will stay alive.

quote:

Also most animals killed for food are not endangered or vulnerable or about to come so. Some trophy hunting species are and people do not like this.

Better stop and think about that statement-animals that have an economic value to humans are thriving, those that don't are being lost.

If you stop hunting you better figure out a way to get McLion burgers on the menu at McDonalds if you want them to survive.

SSR

quote:

What is your proof that hunting in the US is more about trophies than consumptive uses of wildlife? What do you think happens to the deer and elk we harvest here in the states? Let it rot after we have our pictures taken with it? No we consume it!

Show me where i commented on hunting IN the USA. I haven't because i do not have the knowledge to.

quote:

As a matter of fact I receive hunting literature offering trophy red stag, roe buck, muntjac and Chinese water deer in England, red and roe deer in Scotland, red deer in Ireland. Seems to me trophy hunting is alive and well in the British Isles.

This is why i said mainly food source. I am perfectly aware some hunters in the UK keep trophies. However i think if you were to do a comparitive study of hunters with trophies in the UK vs hunters with trophies in the USA, the USA would win hands down.

quote:

I always chuckle at this "more noble path" drivel... somehow hunting is different, more sophisticated, less bloody in your world than mine.

Not at all. I have never seen hunting as noble wherever it takes place nor do i see it as sophisticated. I personally found the UK's method of hunting of foxes (when legal) one of the most barbaric methods of hunting i had ever come across. So please do not tell me what world i live in for you do not know.

quote:

Ah the old "dismiss any research that doesn't support your point as biased" trick.

Firstly pot, kettle, black.

Secondly i did not dismiss it. Had i of done so i would not have continued to make comment on it i would have just ignored it.

quote:

This debate is really nothing more than a waste of time. Mine by responding to someone who won't debate a real scientific article and who throws up indefensible and unproven statements as fact. And other AR readers who have wasted their time reading this thread.

I have debated it. I told you (generic) exactly what i thought about the research. It is you (generic) who refuses to discuss that the hunting industry has much to do to ensure that a proposed limited offtake would actually be so.

quote:

Do you think that anything goes to waste? In our concessions not even a Lion or Leopards goes to the Vultures. Everything gets eaten.

I am perfectly aware that meat from many kills is distributed in the communities but as i said before it is a secondary action for the hunter who travels to Africa. The trophy and enjoyment is the main part for them, the giving away of the meat a side effect. Please do not try and claim to be so noble a group that your only or main aim is to feed the people.

quote:

Better stop and think about that statement-animals that have an economic value to humans are thriving, those that don't are being lost.

If you stop hunting you better figure out a way to get McLion burgers on the menu at McDonalds if you want them to survive.

The lion has economic value but yet still continues to decline. Like i said before perhaps it is time to put a ban on lion hunting until the governments look after and protect them better and the hunting industry stop the corrupt actions.
Believe me should this happen and a healthy population is raised and maintained you will not hear a peep from me on lion hunting. As i have already said many times i may not like or ever participate in hunting but i respect you have a right to hunt as long as whatever you are hunting is sustainable.

quote:

I have never seen hunting as noble wherever it takes place nor do i see it as sophisticated

Who cares what you think?

Are you so full of yourself you think you can come to a HUNTING forum and try to tell us to give up hunting?

WOW! The stupidity of some people has no bounds!

Saeed,

Many people probably don't care what you think either but that does not take away your right to freedom of speech and your right to voice your opinion.

Show me where i said you had to give up hunting? Can you not read very well? I have stated many times you have every right to hunt as long as the species you are hunting are sustainable.

I agree the stupidity of some people has no bounds.

P.S What astounds me about you Saeed is that all you can do is call names and berate. You can't even offer any kind of debate, just pathetic name calling and bravado.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
P.S What astounds me about you Saeed is that all you can do is call names and berate. You can't even offer any kind of debate, just pathetic name calling and bravado.

I enjoy hunting, and I started this web site to enjoy talking bout hunting with like minded, intelligent people.

I did not set up this forum to get into endless arguments with a bunny hugger.

Face the truth, you do NOT like hunting, so why are you here then?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
[QUOTE]

I enjoy hunting, and I started this web site to enjoy talking bout hunting with like minded, intelligent people.

I did not set up this forum to get into endless arguments with a bunny hugger.

Face the truth, you do NOT like hunting, so why are you here
then?

I have followed the threads that Jolouburn has started or dived into, and the theme is consistent...anti hunting ..period.

Other than oblique entertainment, no value is being contributed by this person.

Saeed...please remove Jolouburn from our forum.

Saeed,

I came here to try and understand hunting. I do not think honestly i ever will.

What i have gained from my time here is knowledge about hunting as a conservation tool. I think many points regarding this are valid, well made and honestly in the right circumstances and climate would work.

I have also learnt how hunting is of benefit to the local people, Africa's economy etc.

I will never from a personal emotional point of view approve of hunting, but this i have stated before. But on the other hand i do not claim you should not hunt either. I respect your right to do so.

I do not however respect that you hunt what are or will become endangered species. It is my view you should only be hunting what is sustainable.

Taking the research for example that Bwanamich asked me to comment on. I can see that whilst hunted the lion has a value, if hunting is disallowed it will no longer have that other than to photo tourists. I also see that hunting outfitters protect the lions within their boundaries and without this protection there would be more poaching of them etc. Those are just two of the benefits but i think you get my point. I agree that limited offtake would probably be better than no offtake.

But on the other side of the coin i think that the governments in African countries should also be doing more to protect the lion and that the hunting industry and all involved should be doing more to ensure rules, regulations etc are followed. By placing a temporary ban on lion hunting it would force those in charge of the aforementioned to do something about the situation if they want to be able to hunt lion or benefit in whatever way from the hunting of lion.

From a purely unemotional view point i have no objection to you hunting, buck, wildebeest, buffalo, croc, elephant etc etc as they are all at this time sustainable. Should they become not so then i would object.

Hunting has never been the cause of species extinction.

It is the weirdos who have systematically lobbied for laws that have caused that.

Do a Google search on adax, schimitar horned oryx and dama gazzele rules being applied in the US right now.

It has started a mass slaughter against these animals. Just because people like you have made sure they have lost their values to those breeding them.

Precisely what you are trying to do about lion breeding in South Africa.

I knew exactly what you are from your first posts, I just left you alone to make a fool of yourself.

And you have not disappointed us.

quote:

Originally posted by bobgrow:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
[QUOTE]

I enjoy hunting, and I started this web site to enjoy talking bout hunting with like minded, intelligent people.

I did not set up this forum to get into endless arguments with a bunny hugger.

Face the truth, you do NOT like hunting, so why are you here
then?

I have followed the threads that Jolouburn has started or dived into, and the theme is consistent...anti hunting ..period.

Other than oblique entertainment, no value is being contributed by this person.

Saeed...please remove Jolouburn from our forum.

This one is of the rabid strain - cannot and will not ever accept hunting in any form - the type that will wail and scream when a dolphin (porpoise) or whale dies.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if she hasn't already attacked the US Dept. of State for having trained 'dolphins' to act as minesweepers, knowing that there will be fatalities.

First of all we are hunters and always have been.Second,the wild animals remaining belong to us in that they are mostly found on private land reserved for hunting.Stop telling us how to conserve our animals when you have already lost yours through your uncareing.Are you one of those guys who tells people we can survive without meat and then opens the fridge and eats a hot dog? Or the ones who tell everyone that they don't eat meat when they really do and are full of lies?

Saeed,

Hunting has caused animal extinction in the past and you know it.

How about you start to address the problems in hunting and then maybe i will have some respect for you. For your ethics and morals, never knowing what i know about you, nothing to do with hunting albeit but perhaps a little respect.

Fujotpu,

Pathetic in your attacks and beration. How about you address the real issues.

Shooter,

Oh my i'm not even going to respond to parts of that. What i will say is please inform me which animal species we have lost through our being uncaring.
Also please learn to type, spell and use grammar correctly. Your (note not you're) post is nearly illegible.

Jo,

I have absolutely no respect for people who are bent on trying to poison public opinion about something they know nothing about.

What do you lot know about hunting?

One Big Fat ZERO!

So how can you have an opinion about something you have no out?

Saeed,

Just a few animals hunted to extinction for you :-

sea mink
bubal hartebeest
falkland island wolf
carribean monk seal
dodo
quagga
zanzibar leopard
tasmanian tiger
atlas bear
irish elk
toolache wallaby
great auk
stellars sea cow
passenger pigeon
And last but not least the carolina parakeet killed for its feathers to put in ladies hats!

Please refrain from making statements so untrue in future.

Oh and sources for these just google, many many supporting articles come up.

Saeed,

I have not ever poisoned the publics opinion regarding hunting. I have my own views and opinions and when asked i actually give both sides of the story as i know them. What i know of hunting as conservation and benefits for the countries i have learnt here and from various articles and research posted here.

Might i suggest again that as a community you contribute to reports, articles about hunting and get your opinions, views out there. Do not whinge how the public hates you and yet sit on your butt and do nothing about it.

jolouborn,

I believe Saeed was referring to sport hunting of a species not commercial hunting. There is a huge difference.

sea mink

From Wikipedia: Due to its highly prized fur, this mink was hunted to extinction. The animal's remains are often found in Native American shell-heaps around the coasts of the islands of Maine, but while indigenous hunting may have made some contribution to the Sea Mink's decline, it was the competitive European fur trade that led to its extinction. (This was commercial harvest, not hunting)


bubal hartebeest

There was less information on Wikipedia about this animal but appears to have dissapeared in the early 1900s. There is no comparison to game management today as it was 100 years ago.


falkland island wolf

From Wikipedia: ." It was hunted for its valuable fur, and the settlers, regarding the wolf as a threat to their sheep, poisoned it. (Commercial harvest and livestock protection)


carribean monk seal

The final extinction of the Caribbean Monk Seal was triggered by two main factors. The most visible factor, contributing to the Caribbean monk seals demise, was the nonstop hunting and killing, of the seals, in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to obtain the oil held within their blubber.[15] The insatiable demand for seal products in the Caribbean encouraged hunters to slaughter the Caribbean monk seals by the hundreds.[16] The Caribbean Monk Seals’ docile nature and lack flight instinct in the presence of humans made it very easy for anyone who wanted to kill one to do so.[12] The second factor was the over fishing of the reefs that sustained the Caribbean monk seal population, with no fish, or mollusks to feed on the seals that were not killed by hunters for oil died of starvation or simply did not reproduce as a result of an absence of food. (Again commercial hunting)


dodo

From Wikipedia: As with many animals that have evolved in isolation from significant predators, the dodo was entirely fearless of people, and this, in combination with its flightlessness, made it easy prey for humans.[47] However, journals are full of reports regarding the bad taste and tough meat of the dodo, while other local species such as the Red Rail were praised for their taste. When humans first arrived on Mauritius, they also brought with them other animals that had not existed on the island before, including dogs, pigs, cats, rats, and Crab-eating Macaques, which plundered the dodo nests, while humans destroyed the forests where the birds made their homes;[48] the impact these animals—especially the pigs and macaques—had on the dodo population is currently considered to have been more severe than that of hunting. The 2005 expedition's finds are apparently of animals killed by a flash flood; such mass mortalities would have further jeopardized a species already in danger of becoming extinct.Although there are scattered reports of mass killings of dodos for provisioning of ships, archaeological investigations have hitherto found scant evidence of human predation on these birds.


I did not go any further down the list but I expect more of the same.


Here is another excerpt from Wikipedia concerning commercial hunting of a species and what can happen when sport hunters intervene.

A century ago, commercial exploitation, unregulated hunting and poor land-use practices, including deforestation severely depressed deer populations in much of their range. For example, by about 1930, the U.S. population was thought to number about 300,000. After an outcry by hunters and other conservation ecologists, commercial exploitation of deer became illegal and conservation programs along with regulated hunting were introduced. Recent estimates put the deer population in the United States at around 30 million. Conservation practices have proved so successful that, in parts of their range, the white-tailed deer populations currently far exceed their carrying capacity and the animal may be considered a nuisance.

JO for a supposed educated self professed enviromentalist its kinda STUPID to equate 18th an 19th century killing of animals as an argument against Managed ethical Hunting??
Please stop flogging the horse HUNTING SAVES ANIMALS IN THE BIG PICTURE.
Its proven with fact .Stop trying to Baffle with B.S we aint buying so please. take a stick and go club them to death yourself because thats whats gonna happen to these beatifull animals if YOU GET YOUR WAY.
DONT DEVALUE THESE ANIMALS - In a modern world that will ensure their Extinction.
How naive are you??
Come to Africa an see for yourself the locals dont give a CRAP about you and your Western/Modern Soppy Emotional veiwpoint.
MONEY TALKS B.S WALKS - u wanna save get with the programe

Mike,

There is no difference whatsoever. Some of those animals were killed for their meat, some for skin and some for decoration. It is no different to the hunting you do for skin, decoration and meat. Hunted to extinction is hunted to extinction.

I do hope you checked all the cited sources for a Wikipedia article. Some big mistakes get made on there.

Shootaway,

Oh the irony! I have never taken drugs in my life other than prescribed ones.

P.S Dont bother with your clever little comebacks Im OUT.

Leopards,

I'm sure you are considering my list had nothing to do with this thread other than Saeed made the blatantly untrue statement that no animal had been hunted to extinction.
But you already know that and attack is your best line of defence when everything else fails!
Pathetic

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Mike,

There is no difference whatsoever. Some of those animals were killed for their meat, some for skin and some for decoration. It is no different to the hunting you do for skin, decoration and meat. Hunted to extinction is hunted to extinction.

I do hope you checked all the cited sources for a Wikipedia article. Some big mistakes get made on there.

Jo,

If you cannot see the difference in conservation practices between 19th century commercial hunting and modern day sport hunters you will never understand the value of hunting in today's world.

I do not feel the need to check Wikipedia's sources. From past history I know if you do not agree with something you just discount the source.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I do not feel the need to check Wikipedia's sources. From past history I know if you do not agree with something you just discount the source.

+1

Shootaway,
My parents indeed know about here although being 38 years of age with my own business and daughter of my own I certainly do not need their permission to post.

Mike,

No writer worth his or her salt would ever rely on Wikipedia for research. As for the rest well you have your opinion I have mine. You chose to alter the original parameters of the statement to fit your purpose but that is a recurrent theme here.

As was the original point the EU has banned import of wild lions from SA, a small victory and one the corrupt will no doubt work their way round but that doesn't change the victory here and now. I'm sure I'll be back with more considering hunters and outfitters being unwilling to clean their act up. I'll see you then.

The BAN on the hunting of the Endangered Addax an Scimatar horned Oryx is a disaster - this is what happens.....
Offered in Budget Hunts:

As many of you already know, USFWS has released new regulations for Scimitar Horned Oryx, Addax, and Dama Gazelle....which will require a CITES permit for hunting after April 4, 2012.

The permitting process has proven to be a monumental pain for landowners who already raise CITES animals such as Barasingha, Arabian Oryx, Red Lechwe, and Eld's Deer.

As a result, many ranchers are liquidating their herds of these animals. It is unfortunate, but hunting (whether you like it or not) has become a business....and these animals being sold off is a direct result of the government sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.....and messing with a proven management system that has worked for decades with these animals.

In any case, if you would like to hunt Scimitar Horned Oryx....there has never been a better time. It is a buyer's market.

I have the following prices to offer on Oryx hunts...

VALUELESS = SHOT FOR MEAT the same thing happened to the Black wildebeest when it was put onto the T.O.P.S regulation in South Africa.

GOD HELP THE 10 000's SOUTH AFRICAN LION's IF THIS EU BAN SPREADS.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many members here, including even Saeed, insist upon engaging in an exchange with this idiot. Who do you think you are reaching and to what end? You are, in my opinion, simply participating in an exercise in futility, which will produce no benefit for either side. For reasons known only to himself, Saeed has chosen to allow this cretin to continue to post on AR, as is his prerogative as the owner of the site. That does not, however, compel any of us to participate in this poor excuse for discord.

If the troll received no response to its incitement, it would likely go somewhere else to provoke its desired response.

GOD HELP THE 10 000's SOUTH AFRICAN LION's IF THIS EU BAN SPREADS.


Why ? They are supposed to be shot on a farm anyway ? I can´t really understand what raising a lion to be shot in SA has to do with the conservation issues lions have in Africa today ? They are probably better of dead instead of sitting on death row for 6 years in a cage to be shot. After seen a few tv programs from lion hunts in SA the only thing I can say its shameful..Good thing its banned and I hope to never see a South African lion in Europe again..

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Saeed,

Just a few animals hunted to extinction for you :-

sea mink
bubal hartebeest
falkland island wolf
carribean monk seal
dodo
quagga
zanzibar leopard
tasmanian tiger
atlas bear
irish elk
toolache wallaby
great auk
stellars sea cow
passenger pigeon
And last but not least the carolina parakeet killed for its feathers to put in ladies hats!

Please refrain from making statements so untrue in future.

Oh and sources for these just google, many many supporting articles come up.

Mendicious at best-

Sport hunting has not caused the extinction of a species.

commercial hunting--which you approved of above has caused the extinctions you mention. In many cases it has been sport hunters that stopped THE COMMERCIAL HUNTING.

SSR

Jo,

Why don't join those trying to stop the Japanese killing whales?

After all, the japs are calling "research"!

Jo,I was thinking,the fact that you made it on this site and spent time with us-like everyone that is ``one of us`` makes me feel that there is hope for you.I hope you learned something from your sejour here.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I have never seen hunting as noble wherever it takes place nor do i see it as sophisticated

Who cares what you think?

Are you so full of yourself you think you can come to a HUNTING forum and try to tell us to give up hunting?

WOW! The stupidity of some people has no bounds!

it is pretty obvious she CAN come to a hunting forum and spout her views. i suppose soon we will see Ingrid Newkirk here telling us " a rat is a cat is a boy". in for a penny, in for a pound. does a freedom of speech doctrine give you the right to post any piece of propaganda you choose? if so, i have a few ideas i would like to espouse.