quote:

Originally posted by LJS:

I would be interested how many clients would feel comfortable hunting elephants if their PH carried a 375.

I've seen a Ph do it but now he owns my old 470.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If you are hunting elephant with a .375 you probably are not doing it at 20 paces so you would have to plenty of time to unload the magazine in him.

Mike
I want to say this respectfully, but I'm not quite sure how to do that....

Have you ever noticed how many disingenuous assertions the big-bore camp makes when trying to downplay the effectiveness of the 375?

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I would be interested how many clients would feel comfortable hunting elephants if their PH carried a 375.

I would be interested to know how many clients would be willing to do any DG hunting without a PH holding their hand.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If you are hunting elephant with a .375 you probably are not doing it at 20 paces so you would have to plenty of time to unload the magazine in him.

Mike
I want to say this respectfully, but I'm not quite sure how to do that....

Have you ever noticed how many disingenuous assertions the big-bore camp makes when trying to downplay the effectiveness of the 375?

You need to be able to distinguish between disingenuous and facetious. I am for everyone doing whatever they want to do. I do not think it is any accident that most PHs do not use a .375 and as for me I will choose not to as well.

Jason,

I don't think anyone is saying you can't kill an elephant with a .375 H&H.

The stature of an elephant gun is not determined by whether a cartridge can kill an elephant but whether it is most likely to knock an elephant down when things get scary.

And by that standard I would not want a 375 H&H when up against jumbos, with or without a PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jason,

I don't think anyone is saying you can't kill an elephant with a .375 H&H.

The stature of an elephant gun is not determined by whether a cartridge can kill an elephant but whether it is most likely to knock an elephant down when things get scary.

And by that standard I would not want a 375 H&H when up against jumbos, with or without a PH.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The stature of an elephant gun is not determined by whether a cartridge can kill an elephant but whether it is most likely to knock an elephant down when things get scary.

And by that standard I would not want a 375 H&H when up against jumbos, with or without a PH.

+1 also

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jason,

I don't think anyone is saying you can't kill an elephant with a .375 H&H.

The stature of an elephant gun is not determined by whether a cartridge can kill an elephant but whether it is most likely to knock an elephant down when things get scary.

And by that standard I would not want a 375 H&H when up against jumbos, with or without a PH.

Will
If you want a cartridge that will "knock an elephant down when things get scary", why do you use the 416 Taylor? I ask because the Taylor seems to be the minimum step-up that one can make when looking for something more powerful than a 375.

I would think a more sensible step-up would be at least a 458 Lott, if not a .500+.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I would think a more sensible step-up would be at least a 458 Lott, if not a .500+.

Now you're talking.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jason,

I don't think anyone is saying you can't kill an elephant with a .375 H&H.

The stature of an elephant gun is not determined by whether a cartridge can kill an elephant but whether it is most likely to knock an elephant down when things get scary.

And by that standard I would not want a 375 H&H when up against jumbos, with or without a PH.

Will
If you want a cartridge that will "knock an elephant down when things get scary", why do you use the 416 Taylor? I ask because the Taylor seems to be the minimum step-up that one can make when looking for something more powerful than a 375.

I would think a more sensible step-up would be at least a 458 Lott, if not a .500+.

Jason,

I am attempting to have my cake and eat it too. I believe to be relatively safe at elephant hunting one needs 5,000 ft-lb of muzzle energy and a minimum KO value of 55, which is satisfied by the 416's.

There is nothing wrong with going with something bigger, such as the Lott, the 470, the 500's.

But none of those bigger guns can be realistically had in a 7 1/2 pound rifle, which is what I want to carry.

I am of the school that bigger is better. That is if you can shoot it straight and fast putting the bullet where you need to every time. I am certainly not afraid to go up against ele or anything else without a ph and would in fact prefer it. Foolish? Perhaps, but it is the way I would prefer to do it. The ph can watch from a hillside somewhere and put what is left of me in a bag to mail to my wife if and when I make that fatal mistake. Having said bigger is better I find myself more and more shooting smaller calibers for any given job. The 458 is at the end of my comfort zone to wield effectively. I am faster, more accurate, and not worried about recoil or follow up with the smaller calibers. I believe that shot placement with a good solid is more important than mine is bigger than yours.

Hunting and backing up are not the same thing so using the fact that most PHs do not carry a .375 when out with clients is neither here nor there.

Would I hunt DG with a .375 magazine rifle? Sure, no problem.

Would I use a .375 bolt to back up a mate? No; I would be packing a large double and hoping never to fire it.

quote:

Hunting and backing up are not the same thing so using the fact that most PHs do not carry a .375 when out with clients is neither here nor there.

Surely you jest.

I'll never understand the attitude about the PH being there to back up the hunter. I just don't think that way. My position has always been that I am the one that intends to kill the beast and there is the possibility that I might have to shoot the beastie off of the PH. There are Ele vids that clearly show the PH being backed-up by the client. Just ask my friend Ivan Carter.

If you haven't hunted Ele then you really don't belong in the conversation because you haven't been amongst them. If you cannot learn to shoot enough gun then perhaps you should't be hunting ELE. Please stick to PG or squirrels. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
I would be interested how many clients would feel comfortable hunting elephants if their PH carried a 375.

I would be interested to know how many clients would be willing to do any DG hunting without a PH holding their hand.

If there was a realistic way to get around the legal issues, the language issues and the logistic issues I'm sure there would be plenty.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I'll never understand the attitude about the PH being there to back up the hunter. I just don't think that way.

Me neither.

Not that I have ever been known to screw up a shot! but having the PH around to start blazing away when an elephant has not dropped to the shot may not necessarily be a bad thing.

Yeah, I wouldn't want a PH chiming in unless things really go to crap, but a few clients and a few PH's have probably been saved by not hunting alone.

I am curious what % of elephants are killed with head shots as compared with heart/lung shots. With a chest shot I suspect a 375 is fine.
There are quite a few folks on this forum with a lot of elephant hunting experience and like to get up close and personal for the thrill of that difficult frontal brain shot but I would bet most first time elephant hunters choose a chest shot. I also suspect their PH's will make some targeting suggestions based on their clients anxiety level and shooting prowess. Popping one at 40 yards behind the shoulder certainly takes some of the danger element out of the equation but it may not be a bad thing for a novice.

I think the main reason people like the 375 H and H is because its a ''Classic'' and want to use it for that reason, and claim their own personal marksmanship with it, means its more than adequate for any game .Each to his own ,but i want something bigger .Harry Manners had one of his men killed because it didnt have sufficient thump, and one elephant culler stated more animals ''get back up '' after being hit with[375 H and H] it than the 458 JMO and observation from others

Backup means two things, which I think Will has unknowingly referred too.

Number 1 is that anyone backing you up, regardeless of caliber is a back up. He might hit the brain of the elephant with a .256 FMJ. Or a 7.62mm Nato, or 9.3mm, or .375. Not generally thought of as stoppers.

Number 2 is the back up is a highly experienced PH with a larger than 375, who also hits the brain, but does so with a 416 or greater. Most likely a 416 because they are cheap. He "stops" the elephant in the same way he could with a .256.

Number 3 is same as above but the PH misses the brain but and he diverts the elephant due to the insult of a 416 or greater ctg missing his brain but rocking his world.

Something to think about.

If you have ever done a drift dive, a dive-buddy is a good thing.

Andy

Gentlemen, of course having back up is a good thing when hunting elephant. I would never suggest otherwise.

On the other hand, I don't allow having back up to influence my choice of a suitable elephant caliber.

That makes no sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jason,

I don't think anyone is saying you can't kill an elephant with a .375 H&H.

The stature of an elephant gun is not determined by whether a cartridge can kill an elephant but whether it is most likely to knock an elephant down when things get scary.

And by that standard I would not want a 375 H&H when up against jumbos, with or without a PH.

Will
If you want a cartridge that will "knock an elephant down when things get scary", why do you use the 416 Taylor? I ask because the Taylor seems to be the minimum step-up that one can make when looking for something more powerful than a 375.

I would think a more sensible step-up would be at least a 458 Lott, if not a .500+.

Jason,

I am attempting to have my cake and eat it too. I believe to be relatively safe at elephant hunting one needs 5,000 ft-lb of muzzle energy and a minimum KO value of 55, which is satisfied by the 416's.

There is nothing wrong with going with something bigger, such as the Lott, the 470, the 500's.

But none of those bigger guns can be realistically had in a 7 1/2 pound rifle, which is what I want to carry.

Will,

I have a Browning Safari Grade in 458 Win. with a 24" barrel. It weighs 7 lbs. 12 ozs. A custom rifle in a caliberlarger than a 416 is certainly possible. You don't have to settle for the marginal 416.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I'll never understand the attitude about the PH being there to back up the hunter. I just don't think that way. My position has always been that I am the one that intends to kill the beast and there is the possibility that I might have to shoot the beastie off of the PH. There are Ele vids that clearly show the PH being backed-up by the client. Just ask my friend Ivan Carter.

If you haven't hunted Ele then you really don't belong in the conversation because you haven't been amongst them. If you cannot learn to shoot enough gun then perhaps you should't be hunting ELE. Please stick to PG or squirrels. JMO

Yes sir,

I feel the same way. You should be shooting something that is capable of handling any situation for the area you are hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I'll never understand the attitude about the PH being there to back up the hunter. I just don't think that way. My position has always been that I am the one that intends to kill the beast and there is the possibility that I might have to shoot the beastie off of the PH. There are Ele vids that clearly show the PH being backed-up by the client. Just ask my friend Ivan Carter.

If you haven't hunted Ele then you really don't belong in the conversation because you haven't been amongst them. If you cannot learn to shoot enough gun then perhaps you should't be hunting ELE. Please stick to PG or squirrels. JMO

Yes sir,

I feel the same way. You should be shooting something that is capable of handling any situation for the area you are hunting.

+1

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jason,

I don't think anyone is saying you can't kill an elephant with a .375 H&H.

The stature of an elephant gun is not determined by whether a cartridge can kill an elephant but whether it is most likely to knock an elephant down when things get scary.

And by that standard I would not want a 375 H&H when up against jumbos, with or without a PH.

Will
If you want a cartridge that will "knock an elephant down when things get scary", why do you use the 416 Taylor? I ask because the Taylor seems to be the minimum step-up that one can make when looking for something more powerful than a 375.

I would think a more sensible step-up would be at least a 458 Lott, if not a .500+.

Jason,

I am attempting to have my cake and eat it too. I believe to be relatively safe at elephant hunting one needs 5,000 ft-lb of muzzle energy and a minimum KO value of 55, which is satisfied by the 416's.

There is nothing wrong with going with something bigger, such as the Lott, the 470, the 500's.

But none of those bigger guns can be realistically had in a 7 1/2 pound rifle, which is what I want to carry.

Will,

I have a Browning Safari Grade in 458 Win. with a 24" barrel. It weighs 7 lbs. 12 ozs. A custom rifle in a caliberlarger than a 416 is certainly possible. You don't have to settle for the marginal 416.

465H&H

I have a modified CZ 458 WM that weighs 7 1/2 pounds too. I've never hunted with it, but getting the weight down to flyweight territory is obviously possible.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

You should be shooting something that is capable of handling any situation for the area you are hunting.

+1 This cannot be over-emphasised. Have a calibre that will save your life in the worst possible situation. Having a marginal calibre should not be an option; you should not be thinking ''I should have gone bigger'' when you are ''among them''!

Things can and do go bad in the bush. And don't rely on your PH to back you, if your calibre is inadequate. You may be the one backing him up.

Your life is worth more than any gun; don't skimp on something over which you have greatest control (caliber), as you may be facing many other uncontrollable factors in the wild.

And to add to that it is your responsibility to be competent with your equipment. There are very few men who can not learn to become proficient with a rifle powerful enough to safely hunt elephants.

Recoil is 90% a mental game and you can train yourself to handle it.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Recoil is 90% a mental game and you can train yourself to handle it.

Absolutely correct.

Recoil is 100% physics. You're 100% mental if you think otherwise.

Only 90% of recoil is mental. The other half is physical.

One of the most experienced 500 nitro shooters on the planet.



Recoil is physics.



Discipline is what teaches us to handle it.



Dan using technique.



I could handle four shots.



After carrying an 11 pound 450 dakota on a 20 mile hike (by GPS) in Dande North at up to a certified 120 degrees F, I understand why Will would recommend a light rifle. However, I dont think I man enough to shoot a 7.5 pound 458 WM.

Andy

My 500 Jeffery weighs 12 lbs with scope, and I wouldn't want it an ounce lighter ... I guess I'm just a recoil wuss

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Recoil is 100% physics. You're 100% mental if you think otherwise.

And if you do the math you'll figure out that if you are not able to handle it, it's a mental issue because the physical aspect of recoil simply isn't that painful, damaging or dangerous.

I am back from 6 weeks on business in India and I really missed AR.

This is a favourite topic of mine as i continue to dream of hunting Africa.

as an arm chair Bwana, I have some conclusions but I am going to start a new poll to see if it is substantiated or not.

Please give your comments on the poll.

More than 10 years ago I did an analysis of 'down time' for elephants using footage from various culls in Zimbabwe and also dug out all the data on elephant attacks and casualty rates. I don't have the exact data to hand (someone can find it in Magnum mag) but roughly.

Culls- all brain shots
Bulls shot with the .450 Watts went from standing to down roughly .1 seconds (two 8mm frames) quicker than those shot with 7,62x54R - but there are only half a dozen animals getting hit with the .450 onthe films -so a small sample.

Those shot with a .465 H&H or a .458 Win seemed to go down a bit quicker than with 7,62 but hard to quantify counting frames on the film- some quicker some not. Also conditions were often different. Clem and Ken worsley are the two using the .465 and .458 win repectively and Clem only used his double to open the culling- so the animals were not running flat out. The young ranger using the .450 watts was only shooting running bulls that were breaking away from the herd. Running animals hit the ground quicker I think. Ken used his .458 for everything where as Clem swithched to a semi Auto 7,62 after the lead animals were down and the heard milling.

Looking at the elephant attacks and self defence shootings...most of those who died never got a shot off- they were thumped by an elephant they hadn't seen, or were guides carrying with an empty chamber and couldn't load in time.

Of the remainder...where the attach took place in thick bush with the first indication to the hunter (or guide) that there was a problem occured inside 10m, the chances of getting away with it increased above .40.

NB- These stats included citizen hunters - were mostly citizen hunters or parks staff- not PH's or their clients.

Despite the statistics I am a firm beliver in - if you hit the brain- it dies now. If you miss the brain- you night stun it, but it may just as well run over you or vanish into the next province. I personally like a higher velocity round for brain shots- purely subjective, but I have the impression that faster bullets hitting the front of the brain or just nicking the brain are more effective than slow ones. Watching those parks films of the culls, the .450 watts definately drops the bulls with more style than Kens .458. Also, the back legs don't always go first when they are running at full speed.

Secondly- for body shots...if you hit the heart- it dies and quickly. If you hit the lungs- but not the big arteries- the elephant runs away. An elephants lungs never collapse- they are fir,ly fixed to the chest wall and it doesn't matter how many holes you put in there- unless their is major bleeding- lung shots don't work. On the Zim proficiency exam a candidate shot a bull that turned out to have 29 bullets in the lung from an AK 47.

Knowing where to put the bullet is more important that what size the bullet is:- Most elephants shot on the PH exams are taken with a .375 - later the PH 'up guns' to something bigger- He is now no longer hunting for himself - he is backing up clients, and the usual dangerous game is buffalo, and after a few close calls...bigger always seems better (even if it isn't really)...at the end of the day, confidence in your rifle and ammo is what matters.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
If the brain of a charging elephant is hit, it will probably be stopped but this isn't an absolute as it depends on what part of the brain is hit.

465H&H

SAY WHAT ??? Any part of any mammalian brain is hit with any projectile trundeling along at better than the speed of sound, it is lights out, switches off.

Scriptus...465 is right - there is definately a differnet reaction if only the front of the brain is hit. Both you (and an elephant) can survive with the frontal lobe destroyed or removed.

This is most commonly seen with side brain shots with lower velocity bullets. Elephant goes down front legs first instead of back and twitches alot giving the impression of trying to stand up. I am also convinced that most of the elephant that are 'knocked out' and revive later and disapear have taken a hit to the front of the brain.

On the culls we occasionally found an elephant that had needed a 'finisher' and later when we cut it up saw that the original bullet had casued damage to the brain but only right at the front..would the animals have survived and recovered? Don't know because they collected a 'finisher'.

Again this mainly applies to big individuals where the brain is around 12" or more in length. I supose my statements above should read...hit the brain and it goes down, rather than Hit the brain and it dies...because not all is quite as it seems....And Julius Malema is proof that a brain is an optional extra in humans...

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Scriptus...465 is right - there is definately a differnet reaction if only the front of the brain is hit. Both you (and an elephant) can survive with the frontal lobe destroyed or removed.

This is most commonly seen with side brain shots with lower velocity bullets. Elephant goes down front legs first instead of back and twitches alot giving the impression of trying to stand up. I am also convinced that most of the elephant that are 'knocked out' and revive later and disapear have taken a hit to the front of the brain.

On the culls we occasionally found an elephant that had needed a 'finisher' and later when we cut it up saw that the original bullet had casued damage to the brain but only right at the front..would the animals have survived and recovered? Don't know because they collected a 'finisher'.

Again this mainly applies to big individuals where the brain is around 12" or more in length. I supose my statements above should read...hit the brain and it goes down, rather than Hit the brain and it dies...because not all is quite as it seems....And Julius Malema is proof that a brain is an optional extra in humans...

hi Ganyana
which kind of bullet and ammo is used in 7.62x54 for culling elephants?
yes

quote:

Despite the statistics I am a firm beliver in

Despite physics, the laws of nature, and all the data, ......

I resist these debates as I know they are mostly for fun….but here’s my take!

I prefer a larger caliber for elephants not necessarily for the initial shot, but for anything that may happen afterwards. And for close-encounters on un-wounded animals as can easily occur while in the bush hunting elephant. Not so much bulls in more open scrub as I have seen in several African countries, but cows in thick bush (such as the jesse found in Zimbabwe). It is no surprise that the guys above who have done this sort of hunting all use and/or recommend large caliber weapons.

I had two charges on my last hunt and both were stopped with brain shots at very close proximity. Would a .375 have stopped those charges with the same shot, yes. However, my hope is that the extra woomph from the .458 Lott over a .375 gives me a slight buffer and a few more options if the shot is not ideal...as any next one may not be. A turn of a charge, or a redirection, or a slight stumble due to disorientation is all I am hoping for if the first shot does not do the trick, which could be enough time to put in a 2nd shot or take evasive measures, or for another member of the hunting team to fire who was not initially able to engage.

The challenge for a guy (self included!) using a “big boy bore” is to not think that just because they are shooting 500+ grain bullets that they can take low percentage brains shots. As has been stated the first shot is all about placement which requires knowing the location of the elephant’s brain at various angles, and resisting those with low probability of success. In my mind this is the argument for the .375. If a guy hunting elephant w/a big bore can PLACE the first shot on an elephant then he has the best of both worlds.

Regarding follow-up, this is not the case with guys on AR but I have been told by multiple PH’s in multiple countries that when the si*t hits the fan, some clients tend to drop-turn-run in which case what they are shooting for backup is totally irrelevant.