I saw that video. That ele couldn't have been killed any deader with a howitzer. Great shot! You are absolutely the reason Buzz sold DVDs Wasn't your Leopard also on that DVD?

It is my leopard, yes! That was a great hunt, one could not have wished for more.

Daylight, big male Leopard strolling out on the limb to the bait and BOOM. Ann makes a perfect shot. Priceless. A memory to last a lifetime. Congradulations.

Your Hippo was pretty cool. That 375 H&H sure puts the smackdown on them !

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
The only people I have met who have genuinely shot more than 1000 elephants used a 30-06 or 7,62 x54 for most of them...

I supose you could say that the professionals used a .30 cal and the amateurs use .45 and up

Not entirely true- all the top culling boys had a heavy rifle of some descrition to hand for the big bulls - but the only guys who used a .375 or bigger on cows in Zim parks were those of us still 'learning'.

I heard you were campaigning with the Norma management to drop from production all the PH and other ammunition bigger than 9.3.

Is that true?

I think it reasonable to presume that a person who has shot hundreds of elephants might be better served with a different weapon than one who has shot few or none.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I have also killed a number of Ele with lovely side brain shots, BUT they are not the concern.

Precisely. There is a reason that PHs that guide clients that for whatever reason choose to hunt elephant with pistols and muzzleloaders limit those hunters to side brain shots.

In my extremely limited eperience, exactly one elephant, the 375 did just fine. That said, standing there looking at the three bulls that had been tearing up the village, it felt very small in my hands.

At what caliber does it not make any difference over 470?

Ganyana,

Long time no see.

What rifle (or machinegun) was used in the 7.62 x 54 mm rimmed?

Czech, hungarian and Russian ammo usually have a mild steel core. I forget color code but think silver tip, yellow and no markings were standard for each country mentioned.

An eight shot M1 Garand with 165 grain black tip AP or 172 grain FMJ BT has killed alot of elephants. One of these gents even wrote a good little book.

Will, is your penetration index different than Art Alphins? Curious.

I agree that anyone who can shoot a 375 can shoot a 416.

Andy

Andy - we had a pile of Soviet Draganov snipers rifles. Took the scopes off and lengthed the stocks with a spacer. Used AP ammo. he nice thing was the west hadn't really seen the Draganov's back then and they were 'secret' We had a constant stream of Clowns In Action comming bearing gifts for a chance to try them out.

In 30-06 we used the Hornady 200grn FMJ. A square made us a whole pile of his mono's, but they wore the barrels out too quickly - and we couldn't replace the rifles. When I left parks they still had about 50,000 rounds of A square 30-06 that nobody wanted.

I still have a hundred or so of those old Harnady .30 FMJ's loaded up for my F.N. They were are darn fine bullet!

375 H&H, 330 Gr. Northfork solid. One shot kill. Sure worked for me.

Dave

quote:

The real problem is a lack of practice with the large bore rifle.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE

.375 is large bore. If you cannot shoot straight then get your self something bigger.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
.375 is large bore. If you cannot shoot straight then get your self something bigger.

Is that in the PH Handbook?

quote:

Originally posted by generalwar:
The 375 is the legal minimum for Elephant, to your question yes it will work. Would it be my choice hunting Elephant however, no.

I agree with those sentiments!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
.375 is large bore. If you cannot shoot straight then get your self something bigger.

Does this apply is one can shoot straight a good portion of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
.375 is large bore. If you cannot shoot straight then get your self something bigger.

Is that in the PH Handbook?

In my book if you split all caliber in production into three groups - light, medium and large. Then the .375 will fall into the latter. .375 is more than enough gun for elephant.

Like shooting deer with a 243, of course you can kill an elephant with a 375H&H, but there are certainly better tools for the job!

Never hunted elephants, but curious from those that have, will the 375HH, proper bullet, well placed shot, stop a charging elephant before it can do harm to the hunter/crew, etc.??

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Don't know how many of Johnson's trackers got squished but even Manners related one (or more?) of his trackers getting killed.

Not much of a recommendation in my book.

Gotta believe I'd rather have Wally Johnson by my side with his 375 H&H than any number of pundits shooting bigger guns ...

There have been too many elephants killed with the 375 H&H to say that it isn't adequate. If the brain of a charging elephant is hit, it will probably be stopped but this isn't an absolute as it depends on what part of the brain is hit. Larger calibers are more likely to stop a charge on a marginal hit but that isn't an absolute either. Ask Will about the charging cow that wasn't stopped by consecutive hits by a 470 and 460 Weatherby. The best plan is to do all you can to avoid a charge in the first place!

465H&H

But the problem is you can get get charged by an elephant when you are minding your own damn business.

For all the baloney spewed by PH's about the adequacy of the .375 H&H, I don't know one that uses one.

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
Like shooting deer with a 243, of course you can kill an elephant with a 375H&H, but there are certainly better tools for the job!

+1

375H&H is the 'minimum' caliber in most countries for elephant. Why use the minimum, when the +0.4 and +0.5 calibres are available? Use the right tool for the right job!

BTW, I have used my 505 Gibbs on numerous occasions for plains game (but not Lord Derby Eland!). The furthest shot was 230m (via rangefinder). Surprisingly the amount of meat damage is similar to my 30/06 (cannot explain it). No follow-up shots were required.

I have calibrated my scope for shots out to 300m (which would be my absolute maximum, though I haven't taken any game at this distance). Using ballistic calculators (eg on the Norma website), one can calculate bullet drop for the biggest DGR calibers out to 300m.

So it would be practical to use a single large-bore calibre rifle for both DG as well as PG, so long as one knows the rifle's capabilities at both short range as well as at long range.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For all the baloney spewed by PH's about the adequacy of the .375 H&H, I don't know one that uses one.

I'm with you Will, you know that, but PH advice on this subject is entirely predictable and understandable.

Every PH with much experience can tell at least one, and probably several, true life stories about Joe Average client hunter who showed up with a howitzer that he couldn't shoot for shite.

The .375 is best for those whose rifle skills are no better than the lowest common denominator.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For all the baloney spewed by PH's about the adequacy of the .375 H&H, I don't know one that uses one.

I'm with you Will, you know that, but PH advice on this subject is entirely predictable and understandable.

Every PH with much experience can tell at least one, and probably several, true life stories about Joe Average client hunter who showed up with a howitzer that he couldn't shoot for shite.

The .375 is best for those whose rifle skills are no better than the lowest common denominator.

This topic is discussed at length in my latest book.

Without giving away the farm () the 375 is adequate because the 375 is the minimum required.

I agree with Fairgame, provided I could shoot straight all the time. I agree with Ganyana if I could shoot straight all the time. I believe there are projectiles that can penetrate an elephant skull with an engine the size of the .30-06 cartridge, provided the bullets are full metal jacket or possibly even premium softpoints such as Barnes X, GS Custom or Winchester Failsafe bullets.
But, would you prefer to hunt with the smaller round, as much as we all know it would do the job, or would you prefer the larger caliber, knowing it would perform better than the "adequate" round? This was my question. I certainly appreciate all responses to this question but I must admit that I would be more comfortable with the large bore rifle with more frontal area when hunting game this size.

Thanks again for the commentary.

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Don't know how many of Johnson's trackers got squished but even Manners related one (or more?) of his trackers getting killed.

Not much of a recommendation in my book.

Gotta believe I'd rather have Wally Johnson by my side with his 375 H&H than any number of pundits shooting bigger guns ...

What about Wally Johnson with his 375 or Jimmy Southerland with his two 577s?

I think any of us who hunted and killed 1,000 elephants might have had a companion injured or killed in the process.

Will, even if you were the shooter, and had your favorite .458 plus, do you think that everyone in your hunting party would survive 1,000 encounters?

I honestly dont see how that is possible.

After all, they do call it dangerous game hunting.

What do you all think?

Andy

Undoubtedly you could kill 1000 Ele with a 375 BUT the next guy might enter the Jess for his first encounter and oops, bugger, I missed the brain on that one... (now the group is slightly upset)...

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
I think any of us who hunted and killed 1,000 elephants might have had a companion injured or killed in the process.

Will, even if you were the shooter, and had your favorite .458 plus, do you think that everyone in your hunting party would survive 1,000 encounters?

I honestly dont see how that is possible.

After all, they do call it dangerous game hunting.

What do you all think?

Andy

You could survive a 1000 encounters is you were shooting bulls exclusively. Probably.

quote:

I believe there are projectiles that can penetrate an elephant skull with an engine the size of the .30-06 cartridge, provided the bullets are full metal jacket or possibly even premium softpoints such as Barnes X, GS Custom or Winchester Failsafe bullets.

Frontal brain shot with a 30-06 with soft points, the video should be interesting.

Haven't shot an elephant yet - hope to do so in August when I return to Zim. Hunted them for the first time in 2009 with a 404 Ruger that I shoot often and well. But have to agree that when we were in the midst of them in '09 I always thought

quote:

Bill Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

So when I return I will carry the 404 again but one of the trackers close by will carry my 458 Lott. I shoot this one often in practice also, which I think is the real key. A true large caliber DGR shot well seems 'more adequate' than a medium equally well handled, for elephant at least IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

I believe there are projectiles that can penetrate an elephant skull with an engine the size of the .30-06 cartridge, provided the bullets are full metal jacket or possibly even premium softpoints such as Barnes X, GS Custom or Winchester Failsafe bullets.

Frontal brain shot with a 30-06 with soft points, the video should be interesting.

Can I go and supply the follow-up shots?

Yes, perhaps I got carried away with the softpoint thing. I believe my real intention was to say a 30 caliber solid could make it through. I'd still be afraid to try though.

Thanks,

jfm

Shot placement is all that counts.

. . . and if the unthinkable happens and shot placement is off (I know it is impossible to envision that might happen given how simple a frontal brain shot is on an elephant and how well most folks shoot big bores, including the .375, but humor me), what's the backup plan?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . and if the unthinkable happens and shot placement is off (I know it is impossible to envision that might happen given how simple a frontal brain shot is on an elephant and how well most folks shoot big bores, including the .375, but humor me), what's the backup plan?

shoot him again??

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . and if the unthinkable happens and shot placement is off (I know it is impossible to envision that might happen given how simple a frontal brain shot is on an elephant and how well most folks shoot big bores, including the .375, but humor me), what's the backup plan?

shoot him again??

Thanks. I guess that is probably right. If you are hunting elephant with a .375 you probably are not doing it at 20 paces so you would have to plenty of time to unload the magazine in him. Particularly since most folks do such a great job of working bolt guns from the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by kingd:
Shot placement is all that counts.

You will realize that it is not all that counts if your "shot placement" is off.
And please don't tell me this does not happen.

Everytime I start thinking a 375 is plenty of gun I watch the DVD where the elephant explodes out of the bushes about four yards from Ivan Carter and his client.
I would be interested how many clients would feel comfortable hunting elephants if their PH carried a 375.